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[Michael F. Assbender]

The point is that, planned or hopeful or whatever, we only have the one movie to judge it by so far. I'm not cool with withholding my judgment on the explanation for Rey's Force aptitude based on what might be explained later.

And that's totally fine. To each their own.

I just see it as one piece of a whole (a planned whole that we know for a fact we'll see the end of). I don't judge anything by its first chapter. But I can understand the frustration from anyone who wants more.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

It was an example of how he never really "earned" what he got. If they hadn't included the downloading trope, he'd never have learned how to fight the Smiths and the movie never would have advanced.

Morpheus and Trinity could also "download Kung Fu", it didn't set Neo apart and didn't need to be earned, it was an established facet of that world. Neo being able to dodge bullets, beat Agents, and fly away at the end was absolutely earned. There was a successful build up to "Chosen One" abilities that didn't cause conflicting opinion among the audience, all in one movie.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Morpheus and Trinity could also "download Kung Fu", it didn't set Neo apart and didn't need to be earned, it was an established facet of that world. Neo being able to dodge bullets, beat Agents, and fly away at the end was absolutely earned. There was a successful build up to "Chosen One" abilities that didn't cause conflicting opinion among the audience, all in one movie.

It makes sense in that story because the authors created that method as a shortcut. So yes, it's established as a facet of the world, but only because it provides the writers with a way to get to the good shit as fast as possible.

Just as connection with the Force giving farm boys the ability to make impossible shots with their eyes closed establishes that a scrappy orphan girl who grew up on a hostile planet can take out a wounded man once she taps into the Force. Especially if the girl is as powerful in the Force as TFA makes clear she is.

 

[jetjevons]

Isn't it still possible Rey trained at Skywalkers academy while she was a youngling?

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Isn't it still possible Rey trained at Skywalkers academy while she was a youngling?

She thought Luke Skywalker was a myth/legend unless her memory was somehow wiped

 

[Scrooged]

The Matrix is a horrible comparison. The entire movie is Neo struggling and working toward being the One. He had to die to reach his full potential.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Isn't it still possible Rey trained at Skywalkers academy while she was a youngling?

It's also possible that she is Leia and Luke's kid. Or she is Jabba's slave girl that he abandoned. Or maybe she's a female variant of a clone trooper. Or perhaps she's--

 

[Agent_Carnage]

I have no issues with Ray backstory. This the first chapter of the new trilogy don't wanna blow the load too early when there's 2 more movies to be seen.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It's explained better in the now non-canon EU but if you have a high enough degree of Force sensitivity, you can basically use the inherent prescience inherent in it's power without realizing it.

Rey isn't "good" at everything, she can just see the correct outcome of everything before it happens. Powerful Force users can train this prescience to the point where it is easy to predict future events, this is how the Emperor and the other Sith Lords are able to anticipate their enemy's grand schemes.

 

[sphagnum]

It's explained better in the now non-canon EU but if you have a high enough degree of Force sensitivity, you can basically use the inherent prescience inherent in it's power without realizing it.

Rey isn't "good" at everything, she can just see the correct outcome of everything before it happens. Powerful Force users can train this prescience to the point where it is easy to predict future events, this is how the Emperor and the other Sith Lords are able to anticipate their enemy's grand schemes.

Do you mean that Rey has a natural affinity for shatterpoints?

Isn't it still possible Rey trained at Skywalkers academy while she was a youngling?

Pablo Hidalgo stated on Twitter that the Kylo's attack at the academy* happened "recently", or sooner than 14-15 years before TFA. So unless little girl Rey was supposed to be older than 5 or 6, she was already on Jakku before the attack happened. It's unlikely in that case that she was even there at all.

*He also said "Let's not call it an academy", so apparently it was informal or smaller than we expect?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

The Matrix is a horrible comparison. The entire movie is Neo struggling and working toward being the One. He had to die to reach his full potential.

You may have lost the thread of what we were discussing.

The major point about The Matrix was that it wasn't part of a planned trilogy, which is why the first movie can be watched by someone in a vacuum and they can still understand the story. Because of the success of the first, they were able to make two sequels simultaneously, each of which needs to be watched with all of the other movies in the series in order for the story in them to make sense.

As a part of a trilogy that's been planned and mapped as a trilogy from day one, TFA doesn't have the same expectations placed on it that the first Matrix did.

As far as audiences knew when it was first released, The Matrix would never get a sequel, and the story in the movie reflects this.

With TFA, we know sequels are coming, which is why it ends on a cliffhanger and doesn't require the story and characters to be fully fleshed out right now. More is coming.

I have no issues with Ray backstory. This the first chapter of the new trilogy don't wanna blow the load too early when there's 2 more movies to be seen.

Exactly.

 

[Kinitari]

With TFA, we know sequels are coming, which is why it ends on a cliffhanger and doesn't require the story and characters to be fully fleshed out right now. More is coming.

It's not about 'fully fleshing out' the character, per say - honestly it's sort of the opposite for me. I feel like Rey is already basically fully fleshed out. I don't picture her having to struggle and learn how to use a light saber. It doesn't seem like she'll have any problems picking up force tricks/magic either. She seems to already be proficient as a mechanic, with a more fundamental understanding the Millenium Falcon than Han Solo did, she's acrobatic as fuck already, so I don't imagine that'll need to be worked on a lot either. She doesn't have any significant character traits that make me worry for her growth - she isn't remotely a coward, she doesn't seem to have an immoral bone in her body, so it's difficult seeing her go dark side. She misses her family I guess, but she seems to already be 'over' any downsides that issue had (she isn't going back to Jakku). Maybe she's a bit overconfident - but even then, she's crazy humble about how baller she is - she saves a dude from a crazy octopus alien with amazing door closing timing, and she pretends like she had nothing to do with it.

This is basically the problem for me. It's like she's already 'end goal' character. Finn, we saw his serious flaws in this movie and we also saw him have to fight to get over some. And now he's mad fucked up - so next movie we have so many options with his character. Is he force sensitive? If so how powerful? Does he get more brave and less spazzy? How bad are his injuries, are they gonna impact him in any way? What does he plan on doing now that empire stuff is over? What does he want to do with this life, who the fuck knows right now - but as an audience with a trilogy coming up, we can wonder about this and have really interesting conversations about where he might go. Ben/Kylo Ren - similar, but maybe not as much fun stuff. He's going to train with this mysterious sith we know nothing about - which could be interesting. He'll have to deal with killing his dad thing, maybe he'll feel bad, I don't know. Honestly, not as cool as Finn but you can maybe see where I am going with it.

With Rey though? She's an incredibly strong Jedi, and pretty sure she'll be the strongest. She's going to probably train with Luke in the next movie, and other than that I can't really think of anything I can picture her doing. Maybe looking for her family? Her mysterious family (which I am pretty sure is not related to the skywalkers) could be an interesting lead - but honestly I wasn't titillated enough by that - I know too little there. She's not going to have to become a better person in any way that I can think of, her personality is balling. I can't see her having any trouble with training. I can't see her being tempted by the dark side, she's crazy emotionally stable, all things considered. No injuries, no significant recent losses. They sort of just thrust her somewhere with all signs pointing to something pretty expected happening - her being trained by Luke.

All this critique makes it sound like I hated the movie, but no I really enjoyed it - I am going to go see it a third time probably this week. I even really enjoy Rey as a character, but I don't like what they did with her in this movie. I think they did a much better job with other important characters, and a few equally if not worse jobs (Poe) with some others.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Do you mean that Rey has a natural affinity for shatterpoints?

I had to Google this, apparently this is a Mace Windu reference?

 

[RockTurtle]

It's not about 'fully fleshing out' the character, per say - honestly it's sort of the opposite for me. I feel like Rey is already basically fully fleshed out. I don't picture her having to struggle and learn how to use a light saber. It doesn't seem like she'll have any problems picking up force tricks/magic either. She seems to already be proficient as a mechanic, with a more fundamental understanding the Millenium Falcon than Han Solo did, she's acrobatic as fuck already, so I don't imagine that'll need to be worked on a lot either. She doesn't have any significant character traits that make me worry for her growth - she isn't remotely a coward, she doesn't seem to have an immoral bone in her body, so it's difficult seeing her go dark side. She misses her family I guess, but she seems to already be 'over' any downsides that issue had (she isn't going back to Jakku). Maybe she's a bit overconfident - but even then, she's crazy humble about how baller she is - she saves a dude from a crazy octopus alien with amazing door closing timing, and she pretends like she had nothing to do with it.

This is basically the problem for me. It's like she's already 'end goal' character. Finn, we saw his serious flaws in this movie and we also saw him have to fight to get over some. And now he's mad fucked up - so next movie we have so many options with his character. Is he force sensitive? If so how powerful? Does he get more brave and less spazzy? How bad are his injuries, are they gonna impact him in any way? What does he plan on doing now that empire stuff is over? What does he want to do with this life, who the fuck knows right now - but as an audience with a trilogy coming up, we can wonder about this and have really interesting conversations about where he might go. Ben/Kylo Ren - similar, but maybe not as much fun stuff. He's going to train with this mysterious sith we know nothing about - which could be interesting. He'll have to deal with killing his dad thing, maybe he'll feel bad, I don't know. Honestly, not as cool as Finn but you can maybe see where I am going with it.

With Rey though? She's an incredibly strong Jedi, and pretty sure she'll be the strongest. She's going to probably train with Luke in the next movie, and other than that I can't really think of anything I can picture her doing. Maybe looking for her family? Her mysterious family (which I am pretty sure is not related to the skywalkers) could be an interesting lead - but honestly I wasn't titillated enough by that - I know too little there. She's not going to have to become a better person in any way that I can think of, her personality is balling. I can't see her having any trouble with training. I can't see her being tempted by the dark side, she's crazy emotionally stable, all things considered. No injuries, no significant recent losses. They sort of just thrust her somewhere with all signs pointing to something pretty expected happening - her being trained by Luke.

All this critique makes it sound like I hated the movie, but no I really enjoyed it - I am going to go see it a third time probably this week. I even really enjoy Rey as a character, but I don't like what they did with her in this movie. I think they did a much better job with other important characters, and a few equally if not worse jobs (Poe) with some others.

THANK YOU! this is very close to how i feel.

People in this thread are having trouble understanding why some of us have reservation with Rei's characterization when there are already characters present in the same film (Finn) who were shown to naturally grow and still have enough mystery and fat-to-chew for the sequels.

so the whole "oh but this is only the first of three" doesn't really excuse or justify the drawbacks with the character when it was shown it was possible with other characters.

and i LIKE rei. i really like her.

 

[travisbickle]

I don't understand the arguments when the whole film is about belief and destiny?

Rey's the non-believer who is actually destined to be the Jedi.

Rey's obviously a fan of Hegel and sees history as a struggle between the powerful and the underclass, thinks that all the force and Luke Skywalker is a myth, believes the resistance overpowered the Empire with skill, dreams of fighting with the resistance.

Is told by Han solo it's all true, the force, Jedis and everything, kind of wants to believe him because he's her hero. Then is confronted with the truth she has magic powers, after finding the lightsaber. Doesn't want to believe it, makes a run for it, gets caught by the bad guy.

Bad guy does Jedi mind trick on her, first sign that all the magical force stuff she thought was a myth might be true, is able to resist him. Now she kind of believes, pulls a jedi mind trick herself to escape.

Ends up in a battle with the bad guy, is directly told by him she has the powers, and ends up believing. Inversely he believes she can beat him because he is obviously caught up in "destiny" narrative having just killed is father to fulfil his own.

 

[voodoopanda]

One positive about Rey already picking up on the force so well and training with Luke is that it's unlikely the other two movies will just mirror Luke's storyline. In fact, if Rey ends up as good as Luke was at the end of Jedi halfway through the 2nd movie let's say, there's a whole lot of new directions the movies might take, to show us more about the force and the universe. Could be intense if they do it well. One of the issues with making a sequel so long after the original is that Luke is already an old man, we miss out on seeing his adventures at the top of his game. Rey could fill that part of the story and it'll feel way more like a sequel to the original trilogy than TFA which more feels like a return to the same world.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

It makes sense in that story because the authors created that method as a shortcut. So yes, it's established as a facet of the world, but only because it provides the writers with a way to get to the good shit as fast as possible.

Just as connection with the Force giving farm boys the ability to make impossible shots with their eyes closed establishes that a scrappy orphan girl who grew up on a hostile planet can take out a wounded man once she taps into the Force. Especially if the girl is as powerful in the Force as TFA makes clear she is.

I just got out of the movie for my third time.

Nobody cares that "downloading Kung Fu" was a cheap way to get to the good stuff, it was an established mechanic setup early within the movie and didn't violate the rules it setup. Rey suddenly "force downloading" how to do a JMT from Kylo Ren is never set up, it's not really even telegraphed in the scene, it just happens and we are left to buy the novelization to get final confirmation.

Rey doing insanely powerful things is fine, she is absolutely allowed to be the most powerful force-user ever, but if Neo can be setup to dodge bullets and beat Agents effectively enough nobody complains about it, the Force Awakens should be able to do the same thing with Rey.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I just got out of the movie for my third time.

Nobody cares that "downloading Kung Fu" was a cheap way to get to the good stuff, it was an established mechanic setup early within the movie and didn't violate the rules it setup. Rey suddenly "force downloading" how to do a JMT from Kylo Ren is never set up, it's not really even telegraphed in the scene, it just happens and we are left to buy the novelization to get final confirmation.

"Close your eyes. Feel it...the Light, it's always been there. It will guide you."
-Maz to Rey

That's literally what she does.

 

[Jinkies]

I interpret the Mary Sue meme as a contrived response to a character who isn't very well-written nor inspiring in comparison to Luke of A New Hope.

I'm not sure whether the latter point is intentional or sheer incompetence. But to me, the Mary Sue idea is secondary.

 

[plasmawave]

The Matrix is a horrible comparison. The entire movie is Neo struggling and working toward being the One. He had to die to reach his full potential.

Which is exactly why in The Matrix Neo becoming the One felt earned.

 

[Veelk]

The Matrix is a horrible comparison. The entire movie is Neo struggling and working toward being the One. He had to die to reach his full potential.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember, Neo's work toward being the One was basically summed up by:

He had one real training sequence, which he mostly failed at and then got better at the same rate that the average person did.

What made him the one wasn't his training/struggling/working whatever. It was his decisions, which in turn he percieved to not be of his own will, but some sort of higher agent moving him towards these things.

Tank: Neo, this has to be done.
Neo: Does it? I don't know. This can't be just coincidence. It can't be.
Tank: What are you talking about?
Neo: The Oracle. She told me this would happen. She told me that I would have to make a choice.
Trinity: What choice?
[Neo walks away]
Trinity: What are you doing?
Neo: I'm going in.
Trinity: No, you're not.
Neo: I have to.
....
Neo: I know that's what it looks like, but it's not. I can't explain to you why it's not. Morpheus believes in something and he was ready to give his life, I understand that now. That's why I have to go.

His path to being the One had little to do with getting skills that literally every other Red Pill got before him. This was a movie that dealt with themes of choice and destiny. Neo's becoming of the one was satisfying because it was synconous with those themes. Neo made the insane choice, through belief in a destiny he was told by the highest authority was false yet somehow still rung true to him, and through that ended up becoming what he was always meant to be. Predestination and free will, in most cases antithetical subjects, have become one, and Neo was born because he made a choice he couldn't explain which lead him to becoming what he was predestined to be. He became what he became through a higher power that is actually his own free will. His transformation is almost gibberish when you try to put it into words, but it rings true because of the narrative themes and context. Even when he was reborn, Neo had no idea how he was doing what he was doing, just that he was. That's why he began to fight Smith with both hands, thinking he'd need them, and he slowly realizes he can see it all coming, and can even block it with one hand. 'Work' as in the terms of putting in effort to master the system? The Matrix combat and his magic abilities to bypass it? He didn't do any of that, or no more than anyone else in nay case. He could have spent ages in that training room, it was his decisions to do the things he did, even at the incredulity of himself, that ended making him the One. He merely fulfilled the thematic song the rest of the movie was singing.

Like Rey does, when, after a movie of her struggling with the internal conflict of leaving her life behind, she accepts that she can't go back and moves her life forward as a Jedi, she closes her eyes and lets the Force flow through her, which has always been the real key to how the greatest dramatic tension in Star Wars are resolved. That was what her 'work/struggle' was, letting go, embracing the force, and it took the whole movie to do so. Despite the Matrix not having a force, they both inhabit a universe, particularly the main characters, where literal characterization is directly tied into the power they wield. Neo didn't become the One through any training regimen, he did it through character (and I mean character in reference to his personhood as shaped by his decisions within the story) development. So did Luke, for that matter. So why can't Rey?

 

[CloudWolf]

Isn't it still possible Rey trained at Skywalkers academy while she was a youngling?

I rewatched the movie yesterday and there's a very small chance this is the case, like a miniscule chance. She straight up doesn't believe the Force exists and considers Luke Skywalker to be a myth. Also, she was dropped off in the flashback at really young age (3 years old or something), way too young to have received any form of training.

It's far more likely that she turns out to be the daughter of Luke Skywalker and that that's used as a reason for her sudden strength, especially since this movie already heavily foreshadows it. Even my mom who usually needs to be explained everything turned to me after the movie and was like 'So, Rey's definitely Luke's daughter, right?'.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Could Rey, someone who did not believe in the Force and though Luke was a myth, ironically be a Jesus-like figure who the Force sought out to bring balance to counter Snote's powers?

Could Rey be Leia's long lost secret and Ben's younger sister?

Could Rey be Luke's daughter with Kenobi's daughter?

Find out in the next episode of STAR WARS!!!

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I wonder if the internet would be even having this same conversation had Rey been a male.

Where were all the Gary Stu criticisms of, say, Owen from Jurassic World, Luke from A New Hope or, hell, almost any male action movie hero!?

 

[The Librarian]

I wonder if the internet would be even having this same conversation had Rey been a male.

At the very least, it wouldn't be as big of a problem.

But yeah. If Rey had been male, this wouldn't have blown up as much as it did.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I wonder if the internet would be even having this same conversation had Rey been a male.

Where were all the Gary Stu criticisms of, say, Owen from Jurassic World, Luke from A New Hope or, hell, almost any male action movie hero!?

People have problems with Gary Stus. They don't like Ethan Hunt or the modern John McClane. And the poster boy for Mary Sues is freakin Kirito from Sword Art Online. Those same people will turn around and like Furiosa and Ripley or Major Kusanagi. It's not a sexism thing.

 

[commish]

Like Rey does, when, after a movie of her struggling with the internal conflict of leaving her life behind, she accepts that she can't go back and moves her life forward as a Jedi, she closes her eyes and lets the Force flow through her, which has always been the real key to how the greatest dramatic tension in Star Wars are resolved. That was what her 'work/struggle' was, letting go, embracing the force, and it took the whole movie to do so. Despite the Matrix not having a force, they both inhabit a universe, particularly the main characters, where literal characterization is directly tied into the power they wield. Neo didn't become the One through any training regimen, he did it through character (and I mean character in reference to his personhood as shaped by his decisions within the story) development. So did Luke, for that matter. So why can't Rey?

How would she even know to "let the Force flow through her"? And if the Force "told her", then why hadn't it told her to let the Force flow through her before? Or anyone else, for that matter, in any of the other movies?

And let's move on from the Matrix comparisons. They don't hold up at all because we have six movies, a TV series, and a number of books telling us how the Force "works", and then TFA which seems to run counter to the established "rules". We had one Matrix movie, so whatever rules they establish are the rules. If TFA was the first and only Star Wars movie, there would be no complaints about her going SSJ2 out of nowhere.

 

[CloudWolf]

I wonder if the internet would be even having this same conversation had Rey been a male.

Where were all the Gary Stu criticisms of, say, Owen from Jurassic World, Luke from A New Hope or, hell, almost any male action movie hero!?

Yeah, probably. I mean, a lot of people have problems with Owen from Jurassic Park and Luke from A New Hope doesn't really showcase the problems people have with Rey since he isn't all that special in A New Hope and his crowning moment (shooting that torpedo in the Death Star exhaust) is foreshadowed, unlike Rey's moment in TFA.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I wonder if the internet would be even having this same conversation had Rey been a male.

Where were all the Gary Stu criticisms of, say, Owen from Jurassic World, Luke from A New Hope or, hell, almost any male action movie hero!?

Stop with the fake persecution complex. Some of the most noted mary/gary stus are male characters. People DID complain about pretty much every instance of John McClane after Die Hard 3. People DID make raptor whisperer jokes about Owen from Jurassic World, and Luke in ANM is not on the same level as Rey. Making one hard short, after literally saying he's piloted similar vehicles and made similar shots in the past, isn't the same as being told about the force for the first time and being able to perform mind tricks and other feats.

 

[Veelk]

How would she even know to "let the Force flow through her"? And if the Force "told her", then why hadn't it told her to let the Force flow through her before? Or anyone else, for that matter, in any of the other movies?

The force didn't tell her, Maz did, the old wise Yoda-esque second mentor figure.

She didn't let the force flow through her because she doesn't want to be a Jedi, or rather she does, but feels she's obligated to go back to Jakku. She only uses it as a last resort, up until the fight with Kylo Ren. At that point, that's her accepting "Okay, I'm no longer going to go back. I am a Jedi now, this is my life" and lets the force flow through her completely.

If TFA was the first and only Star Wars movie, there would be no complaints about her going SSJ2 out of nowhere.

I doubt this, because TFA follows the rules of the Force, particularly as laid out on the more coherent OT, perfectly. I have no doubt we'd be having this same debate with or without the previous films. We'd probably be quicker to call the Force bullshit if anything. The filmmakers were concious that we knew what the force was, so less effort went into expositing things we already knew. Imagine how out of nowhere the mindtrick scene would be if we didn't know it was a thing from the OT.

 

[Foggy]

People have problems with Gary Stus. They don't like Ethan Hunt or the modern John McClane. And the poster boy for Mary Sues is freakin Kirito from Sword Art Online. Those same people will turn around and like Furiosa and Ripley or Major Kusanagi. It's not a sexism thing.

I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure it's a "sexism thing" in that this conversation has blown up to the degree it has, but the core of the issue with her character I think is valid or, at worst, worth discussing. Like you mention, John McClane and others can be maddening to watch but it's usually mitigated by the fact that they're simple action spectacles. On the flipside, I don't think it's particularly unfair to cast a more critical eye on a character's arc when we're dealing with an epic space opera that has plenty of history to provide context to the current character.

I think it's a mix of a genuine complaint, the intense scrutiny that comes with Star Wars discussion, and yeah a bit of sexism. But as for the "why Rei" side of the discussion, it does exist(Die Hard, F&F, M:I, etc) outside of just taking female characters down a peg or two.

 

[RockTurtle]

its the biggest movie release in a highly coveted series.

that it is a popular topic of discussion that brings about a lot of participation is not farfetched.

if you want to throw in the "because she's a woman" into the fray, then we can also throw in the idea that people are vehemently defending flaws for the same reason.

but i would hope not and we could just concentrate on the character and basis of the movie itself as a storytelling medium.

 

[Zabka]

How would she even know to "let the Force flow through her"? And if the Force "told her", then why hadn't it told her to let the Force flow through her before? Or anyone else, for that matter, in any of the other movies?

And let's move on from the Matrix comparisons. They don't hold up at all because we have six movies, a TV series, and a number of books telling us how the Force "works", and then TFA which seems to run counter to the established "rules". We had one Matrix movie, so whatever rules they establish are the rules. If TFA was the first and only Star Wars movie, there would be no complaints about her going SSJ2 out of nowhere.

Maz specifically tells her to close her eyes and feel it and that it will guide her. Rey doesn't listen at the time, her eyes are wide open.

 

[Sylas]

How would she even know to "let the Force flow through her"? And if the Force "told her", then why hadn't it told her to let the Force flow through her before? Or anyone else, for that matter, in any of the other movies?

And let's move on from the Matrix comparisons. They don't hold up at all because we have six movies, a TV series, and a number of books telling us how the Force "works", and then TFA which seems to run counter to the established "rules". We had one Matrix movie, so whatever rules they establish are the rules. If TFA was the first and only Star Wars movie, there would be no complaints about her going SSJ2 out of nowhere.

There's also the fact--and I missed this entirely until rewatching the movie--but during the lightsaber fight in particular, there's the part where Kylo is bearing down on her and says, "You are strong in the force. I can teach you!"

And Rey says, very quietly, "...The force?" And then remembers what Maz told her. She wasn't even considering the Force until Kylo brought it up, and then she recalls the bit about letting it flow through her and guide her--and it does!

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Rey is clearly very powerful, she has visions and can sense emotions (like when Kyko tortures her), and the myths of the Force/Jedi appear to be well known, if not truly believed, at this point in the universe. She has the information and ability to do very well fairly quickly... And even then, the only reason she survives a fight with Kylo Ren at all is because Chewie shot him with a weapon the film goes out of the way to repeatedly show is very powerful.

I'm still confused as to how people find the Force, Jedi, and Sith to be myths. It's only been 70 or so years since the Clone Wars. They're all space faring so you'd think it would be difficult to completely erase any knowledge of them.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

The knowledge isn't erased, it just isn't entirely believed. The chunk of the galaxy we see in Star Wars has been consistently unstable, usually under some facist regime. Even on earth today you can see just how much history distorts in those situations.

Not that I entirely buy it. I was kind of hoping a sequel to the OT would have Jedi back to prominence.

Jedi have been around for thousands of years all over the galaxy. They have a larger footprint than the movie says. It's like if in 70 years every one was skeptical about whether or not people were religious.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I'm still confused as to how people find the Force, Jedi, and Sith to be myths. It's only been 70 or so years since the Clone Wars. They're all space faring so you'd think it would be difficult to completely erase any knowledge of them.

Well consider this, there were probably only thousands of Jedi at their peak. One planet alone probably has billions of people so when you consider a group of thousands in a galaxy of probably hundreds of billions of people if not up to a trillion, it's somewhat easy to see how they wouldn't be well known

 

[sphagnum]

Jedi have been around for thousands of years all over the galaxy. They have a larger footprint than the movie says. It's like if in 70 years every one was skeptical about whether or not people were religious.

There are very few Jedi. In a galaxy of trillions, there were only 10k Jedi during the PT. It would be like if some sect of Buddhist monks in the Himalayas had magic powers - sure, it would be publicized but most people would believe it was trickery, especially if the entire world waged a propaganda war against them for decades.

I mean, it's been 70 years since the holocaust and plenty of people think that was a myth. There are always people susceptible to nonsense, especially if they dont have a proper education. In Rey's case, she is living on a nowhere world and her daily existence is all about not starving.

 

[Kinokou]

But is she skilled enough to fight someone with a weapon?

Not really as she was driven back until she tapped into the force.

Enough to fight a trained light saber user? And you reasoning is this?

Do you know why people don't have a problem with Ren being a skilled Light Saber user? Because the movie made it clear by showing us through the whole movie. They needed to properly set up Rey's combat skill if they wanted to convey that she's a skilled fighter.

Even Finn used the light saber against Kylo Ren but we did see him fight another storm trooper with it before. Pretty extensively too.

I don't think the movie established Ren as a skilled Light Saber user since he only ever stabbed people who didn't fight back or slashed in rage at inanimate objects.

And Finn the blaster guy gets a pass for mastering a Light Saber the first time he picks it up?

There's also the fact--and I missed this entirely until rewatching the movie--but during the lightsaber fight in particular, there's the part where Kylo is bearing down on her and says, "You are strong in the force. I can teach you!"

And Rey says, very quietly, "...The force?" And then remembers what Maz told her. She wasn't even considering the Force until Kylo brought it up, and then she recalls the bit about letting it flow through her and guide her--and it does!

Yup. He served her the victory by reminding her about a critical asset she had thus far overlooked.

I think Finn overcoming the Stormtrooper conditioning because of a bit of blood and then being able to hit Ren with the saber despite being bested by a non-saber wielding trooper earlier was more of a stretch than anything Rey did.

I actually think he is somehow conditioned into defecting either as a sleeper agent or as part of a internal stormtrooper rebellion. I feel pretty much the same about Finn tho.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

"Close your eyes. Feel it...the Light, it's always been there. It will guide you."
-Maz to Rey

That's literally what she does.

In the interrogation room scenes, her "force downloading" the JMT info from Kylo Ren is not telegraphed at all, it just happens. That lack of true foreshadowing or build up is why we have these Rey/force complaints, the movie is failing to convey something it absolutely should have.

The Maz setup you mention is directly "paid off" within the movie when Rey is fighting Kylo and says "The Force?", closes her eyes, lets the force in, and begins to beat Ren. There is decent narrative connective tissue between those two scenes. Using the Maz scene to explain away Rey's "force downloading" skills from Kylo Ren, something the movie doesn't even bother to hint at visually, is a crazy narrative leap for an audience to be expected to make.

 

[Holiday]

It's not about 'fully fleshing out' the character, per say - honestly it's sort of the opposite for me. I feel like Rey is already basically fully fleshed out. I don't picture her having to struggle and learn how to use a light saber. It doesn't seem like she'll have any problems picking up force tricks/magic either. She seems to already be proficient as a mechanic, with a more fundamental understanding the Millenium Falcon than Han Solo did, she's acrobatic as fuck already, so I don't imagine that'll need to be worked on a lot either. She doesn't have any significant character traits that make me worry for her growth - she isn't remotely a coward, she doesn't seem to have an immoral bone in her body, so it's difficult seeing her go dark side. She misses her family I guess, but she seems to already be 'over' any downsides that issue had (she isn't going back to Jakku). Maybe she's a bit overconfident - but even then, she's crazy humble about how baller she is - she saves a dude from a crazy octopus alien with amazing door closing timing, and she pretends like she had nothing to do with it.

This is basically the problem for me. It's like she's already 'end goal' character. Finn, we saw his serious flaws in this movie and we also saw him have to fight to get over some. And now he's mad fucked up - so next movie we have so many options with his character. Is he force sensitive? If so how powerful? Does he get more brave and less spazzy? How bad are his injuries, are they gonna impact him in any way? What does he plan on doing now that empire stuff is over? What does he want to do with this life, who the fuck knows right now - but as an audience with a trilogy coming up, we can wonder about this and have really interesting conversations about where he might go. Ben/Kylo Ren - similar, but maybe not as much fun stuff. He's going to train with this mysterious sith we know nothing about - which could be interesting. He'll have to deal with killing his dad thing, maybe he'll feel bad, I don't know. Honestly, not as cool as Finn but you can maybe see where I am going with it.

With Rey though? She's an incredibly strong Jedi, and pretty sure she'll be the strongest. She's going to probably train with Luke in the next movie, and other than that I can't really think of anything I can picture her doing. Maybe looking for her family? Her mysterious family (which I am pretty sure is not related to the skywalkers) could be an interesting lead - but honestly I wasn't titillated enough by that - I know too little there. She's not going to have to become a better person in any way that I can think of, her personality is balling. I can't see her having any trouble with training. I can't see her being tempted by the dark side, she's crazy emotionally stable, all things considered. No injuries, no significant recent losses. They sort of just thrust her somewhere with all signs pointing to something pretty expected happening - her being trained by Luke.

All this critique makes it sound like I hated the movie, but no I really enjoyed it - I am going to go see it a third time probably this week. I even really enjoy Rey as a character, but I don't like what they did with her in this movie. I think they did a much better job with other important characters, and a few equally if not worse jobs (Poe) with some others.

This is a really good post, I hope they find an interesting arc/challenge for her in 8.

 

[Lmo911]

The second this conversation started popping up on the internet, I immediately got a headache. Then I saw it on a few podcasts and videos, so now it has a life of it's own.

So let's do this!

I personally feel that Rey can't be a Mary Sue because of the sheer nature of the film we are watching. The Force Awakens is a "hand shake" movie. It exists to get a new story going but also to assuage the concerns fans may have on the new direction of the series. It encapsulates a lot of classic Star Wars to the point people like to call it a reboot and in doing so they have to have the staples and you can't have a traditional Star Wars film without Jedi.

Now I know hardcore fans will be like "Sure you can! I want more Solo, X-Wings and less Luke!" Well you got him! It's a fun juxtaposition having Solo be Obi Wan this time, but you get the issue of there is no teacher for Rey outside of Kylo who pretty much cements that "It's true, all of it" by torturing the hell out of her. It's definitely not a traditional hero's journey, but it's one that sets her on the path that "hey there is space magic and I can use it."

We could go the ANH route and Rey could have been some crack pilot and we never see her directly confront Kylo, but then you would have a main series Star Wars film without a Lightsaber fight. That works for ANH because it's the first movie, we're still learning about the galaxy. We're 30 years in now and I feel that would be against the nature of this movie. People wants their Pew Pews! Blrzarks! Wilhelm Screams! And other sci-fi noises! This is the comfort food movie. This is the movie that has to reach out to 40 years of Star Wars fans and say "it's going to be okay." It's going to be okay prequel fans! We have powerful Jedi! It's going to be okay OT fans, we have Solo and all the classic tropes there with! It's okay hardcore fans, Harrison finally gets his wish!"

The most daring thing this film does is keep Hamil off camera and while it was totally needed to let everyone else breath, it also cripples the logic of Rey's development. The fact Rey is totally on board with Luke from the start, believes in the force, has a vision and pretty much has space magic validated at every turn is supposed to make this transition easier. Rey doesn't get the pinky dip into a larger world Luke got wearing a helmet with a blinder on it, she gets tossed into the deep end with a crazy guy wielding a flaming sword. Rey doesn't really get the option to ask "So this force stuff, it's all bunk right?"

All these steps are there to get the doubt subtext out of the way that permeated the original trilogy. If it doesn't die in this movie, then the entire trilogy will be a retread. Rey's journey seems to be an inversion of Luke's. Luke wants nothing more than to leave his home and see the universe while Rey wants to build the home that she never really had. She wants it so bad she'll live on a rock just waiting for her family to return. Finn is similar in his "I have nothing to fight for until I found a friend" journey. Personally I think this might be why Luke would fail rebuilding the Jedi, I don't think his heart would be in it. He wants to explore and learn, not lead. Rey just might understand the value of other people better than Luke does.

So structurally I don't think she can really fit the term. She has to fill a role in the story fairly aggressively (which is one of two speeds JJ has: aggression and sadness!) and considering the nature of this movie, I don't want to make the call until the next film. If she's better at the force than Luke in Episode VIII without training then we can talk.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

What made him the one wasn't his training/struggling/working whatever. It was his decisions, which in turn he percieved to not be of his own will, but some sort of higher agent moving him towards these things.

My point was that in another monomyth-type movie that featured an arguably even more overpowered character there is a fanbase that never really split and argued over whether they accepted his progression or not.

Why is that?

My completely subjective opinion is it was conveyed better. Neo is setup more effectively. Things are setup early, are allowed to simmer, then pay off.

Rey doesn't really get the same degree of effective setup/foreshadowing. She gets very little simmer time, the script needs to get to point A/B/C while also cramming in lots of OT callbacks, and it often uses Rey to do it. That decision simply doesn't leave much story time for Rey build up to her end of movie feats/abilities...and that's where I feel the gist of the Mary Sue argument is coming from.

 

[heliosRAzi]

My point was that in another monomyth-type movie that featured an arguably even more overpowered character there is a fanbase that never really split and argued over whether they accepted his progression or not.

Why is that?

My completely subjective opinion is it was conveyed better. Neo is setup more effectively. Things are setup early, are allowed to simmer, then pay off.

Rey doesn't really get the same degree of effective setup/foreshadowing. She gets very little simmer time, the script needs to get to point A/B/C while also cramming in lots of OT callbacks, and it often uses Rey to do it. That decision simply doesn't leave much story time for Rey build up to her end of movie feats/abilities...and that's where I feel the gist of the Mary Sue argument is coming from.

To me, they put all of the monomyth for Rey into the latter part of the movie. Her refusal is in the second act of TFA as opposed to Luke's in the first act of ANH. For me, it felt like Rey was pushed along the plot instead of it being her choice.

 

[plasmawave]

Not really as she was driven back until she tapped into the force.



I don't think the movie established Ren as a skilled Light Saber user since he only ever stabbed people who didn't fight back or slashed in rage at inanimate objects.

And Finn the blaster guy gets a pass for mastering a Light Saber the first time he picks it up?




Yup. He served her the victory by reminding her about a critical asset she had thus far overlooked.



I actually think he is somehow conditioned into defecting either as a sleeper agent or as part of a internal stormtrooper rebellion. I feel pretty much the same about Finn tho.

Did you forget the part Ren was trained under Luke?
If a Stromtrooper can use a melee weapon then it's safe to assume Finn also had the same training.

 

[DrForester]

Did you forget the part Ren was trained under Luke?
If a Stromtrooper can use a melee weapon then it's safe to assume Finn also had the same training.

Given that Ren is using an ancient, cobbled together Lightsaber that is barely stable, my guess is that Light Saber training was not something he spent much time doing with Luke.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Given that Ren is using an ancient, cobbled together Lightsaber that is barely stable, my guess is that Light Saber training was not something he spent much time doing with Luke.

I don't think you necessarily need to start off with a lightsaber to train to use one. People learning sword fighting don't jump in with metal swords right off the bat

 

[Veelk]

My point was that in another monomyth-type movie that featured an arguably even more overpowered character there is a fanbase that never really split and argued over whether they accepted his progression or not.

Why is that?

My completely subjective opinion is it was conveyed better. Neo is setup more effectively. Things are setup early, are allowed to simmer, then pay off.

This subjective opinion rests on the premise that the fanbase is a fair and unbiased community that consistently judges each work on it's own merits without being affected by the changing culture around it.

L.O.L.

Collectively speaking, there are so many different things that could have gone into why TFA wasn't recieved as well. I've been careful to step out of the sexism debate because it is fruitless to try and accuse any single person of sexism as it's not provable. As a generalization, however, it has been proven that people judge things more harshly when the subject is a woman or colored person. People judge more harshly because it's star wars and they have certain expectations that don't apply to other stories, whether those expectations are well established or not. People can judge it by different standards than they did Matrix because they came out nearly 15 years apart.

We can't speak for the audience. It's a community of billions of opinions on the matter of both films, and their perceptions, for better or worse, are similarly affected by thousands of different things. There's a reason we don't bring in eye witness accounts except in special circumstances. You want to try and get the unbaised collective opinion of a dynmaic population of an original film over 15 years ago to compare it the new opinion of the recent installment of the world's biggest media franchise ever and think you're going to get a fair and balanced insight into judgement? Come on, dude.

What we can only speak for the movies themselves. If Neo's arc was set up better (which wasn't the argument that was being put forth anyway. The argument was that Neo 'worked harder' towards it, which is complete bullshit), then we argue that, using evidence from the film.

 

[plasmawave]

Given that Ren is using an ancient, cobbled together Lightsaber that is barely stable, my guess is that Light Saber training was not something he spent much time doing with Luke.

Is building a light saber part of the sword training?

 

[Kinokou]

If you think they did a better job of foreshadowing Kylo's dueling ability than Rey's you did not watch the same film I did.

I'm trying to say they did crap for Ren and Finn in the Light Saber department and well with Rey. Edit: From a foreshadowing like perspective, Ren clearly overpowered her one on one.

Did you forget the part Ren was trained under Luke?
If a Stromtrooper can use a melee weapon then it's safe to assume Finn also had the same training.

Ren just seems more well trained in the use of the Force rather than Light Sabers, and his force skills are well established. Holding that blaster beam and mind probing was way more amazing than anything he did with a Light Saber.

With the storm troopers, it is very well possible that they are all well rounded in melee and blasters, but except for the light saber Finn really seems to have skill gap in not having been active in combat and not knowing how to pilot. The assumption I make is that skills like flying and melee combat are assigned on a need to know basis.
Did anyone spot other storm troopers with tonfa sticks? I'm not going in for a second viewing just to check that, but if they usually don't I would say that supports my theory.