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[Laughing Banana]

This thread isn't those places. Why post that here at this point unless it was a drive by comment?

It;s a bloody 52 pages worth of thread discussion and the title of the thread itself discuss the fact that Rey has been regarded as a Mary Sue. Not only there are other Star-Wars forums/thread still think this way, I am positive some fans in GAF still thinks of her as that way as well.

Who are you again to police what I can or cannot say in this thread? Especially since it is still on-topic? If you think that my post is a "drive by comment" (directed towards whom, exactly?) then you can directly report my post to your favorite mod, and stop acting like you're one.

 

[the black pearl]

One of the reasons people overlook the blindfold scene, is it's not a very dramatic scene at all. It's not nearly as a dynamic beat as Rey yelling "We've got one!" for example. He successfully blocks three lasers from an unimpressive looking training droid, while being nurtured by Obi-Wan. And Han points out that its not much of a test. That said, its an interesting point from the "Double Standard" side of the debate, but I dont think thats nearly as big of a deal.

I think Luke is one tier lower on the "spectrum" than Rey or Anikin (in a way, he doesnt have much to do in TPM, but what he does, he excelled at)

Its hasty at best to call Rey a Mary Sue. But I think there are reasons (not necessarily good reasons that hold under scrutiny) independent of sexism, through a casual, hasty use of the word, and a casual watch-through of the movie, that people would consider Rey closer to the target than Luke. I loved Rey, although I'll admit when I first saw the idea of her being a mary sue, I casually thought "Yeah, Okay, I see that. Ish" Not really proud or ashamed of it.

 

[Kin5290]

I liked her enough as a character..but she is way too skillful and versatile

that being said,anakin in the prequels was kinda like that too

Rey's range of skills is way more earned than Anakin's. They're all reasonable for a self sufficient survivor to have and she's had at least had a decade to develop and hone them.

 

[Trouble]

Rey's range of skills is way more earned than Anakin's. They're all reasonable for a self sufficient survivor to have and she's had at least had a decade to develop and hone them.

Obviously her abilities are way less believable than a 10 year old winning his first ever pod race against a bunch of experienced racers.

 

[Vice]

Obviously her abilities are way less believable than a 10 year old winning his first ever pod race against a bunch of experienced racers.

The fist pod race he finished. He had raced before, he just always ended up crashing until the moment when he really needed to win. All the Star Wars protagonists get their big unbelivable win toward the end of the first movie in their trilogy.
Come 2027 in Star Wars Ep. 10 Ben-Chewbacca Skywalker-Kenobi-Solo will use his space whaling skills to catch a Super Omega Star Destroyer in a net to save the day and this cycle of conversation will begin again.

 

[Rentahamster]

Wait, so is it verified in the books or whatever that Kylo Ren's lightsaber looks that way because it's been amateurishly constructed?

Or does it look that way because it's an aesthetic choice by Kylo Ren?

 

[Kin5290]

Obviously her abilities are way less believable than a 10 year old winning his first ever pod race against a bunch of experienced racers.

Where'd he get the parts for that thing anyways? I'm sure he was stealing a bit of Watto's stock here and there but how'd an eight year old get his hands on those engines?

 

[Staccat0]

Luke spends years of training inbetween IV and V before he faces Vadar. Yes the Force makes a big difference in the duels, but it still requires years of training.

I've no problem with Rey being a bad ass with the light sabre, My big problem is with how satisfactory it was.

Her character arc is way too flat. The awaking force does not seem to have much of an effect on her character. She has only token internal conflict, that does not effect the plot in any way. She has no flaws really. I like her, but that doesn't make for a satisfying character arc. She is a pretty competent character from the start, good at mechanics, flying ships, fighting. Then the force awakens and she seems to be an instant Jedi. If they had developed a few flaws she had to work through people would not be complaining as much methinks.

Luke goes from whinny farm boy to someone gaining belief in himself and his abilities and the arc continues through out the later films as he struggles against the dark side and his family revelations.

I don't recall him ever training with his light sabre. IN FACT, Yoda steers him away from that shit and is like, "dawg, this ain't about lazer swords - it's about fear it is."

Anyway, I'm just saying they are clearly foreshadowing that Rey is unusual and special. Meanwhile they are also illustrating that Kylo isn't exactly an almighty Sith Lord - that second one is text - the movie directly talks about it.

Meanwhile, the villain just killed his dad and was shot by a gun that the movie made a point of setting up as pretty hefty.

Could they have set it up better? Sure. Is it as acceptable as Luke being a better fighter pilot than vader in ANH? Sure - who cares?

Don't get me wrong, the movie is dumb. as. fuck. but people get carried away. It's Star Wars, if it bugs you maybe consider graduating to better movies. Blue Ruin didn't have these threads

 

[Gr1mLock]

I don't think it matters if she is or isn't. In context she makes sense. Divorcing and singling her out as outlandish is a weird thing to do in a story where basically everything is outlandish.

 

[Cyan]

Now that I've finally seen the movie: lolololol

The character that most fits Mary Sue tropes is actually Kylo Ren. OC who's a child of two of the previous leads, trained by the third, grandson of Darth Vader, strong in the force, has his own special lightsaber, turns out to basically be a kid under the mask. Oh, and he kills off a lead. Would be suuuuuper suspect if this was a fanfic.

I didn't really have a problem with him, though. (Or Rey, obvs.) The only real issue I had with the movie was the scale. Seemed like you could get anywhere in the galaxy in about five minutes.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot Po. Poe? Anyway. "BEST PILOT IN THA RESISTANCE" is also p Mary Sueish lbr. And he wasn't a very interesting character.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I don't think it matters if she is or isn't. In context she makes sense. Divorcing and singling her out as outlandish is a weird thing to do in a story where basically everything is outlandish.

She's the main character.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot Po. Poe? Anyway. "BEST PILOT IN THA RESISTANCE" is also p Mary Sueish lbr. And he wasn't a very interesting character.

I also don't get the Poe love. He's barely in the movie.

 

[The Librarian]

Now that I've finally seen the movie: lolololol

The character that most fits Mary Sue tropes is actually Kylo Ren. OC who's a child of two of the previous leads, trained by the third, grandson of Darth Vader, strong in the force, has his own special lightsaber, turns out to basically be a kid under the mask. Oh, and he kills off a lead. Would be suuuuuper suspect if this was a fanfic.

I didn't really have a problem with him, though. (Or Rey, obvs.) The only real issue I had with the movie was the scale. Seemed like you could get anywhere in the galaxy in about five minutes.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot Po. Poe? Anyway. "BEST PILOT IN THA RESISTANCE" is also p Mary Sueish lbr. And he wasn't a very interesting character.

Yeah. If anything, Poe is the Mary Sue.

But no. It's Rey. Because people have sexist tendencies.

 

[Kinyou]

Yeah. If anything, Poe is the Mary Sue.

But no. It's Rey. Because people have sexist tendencies.

Come on, there's more reason to it than that.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Yeah. If anything, Poe is the Mary Sue.

But no. It's Rey. Because people have sexist tendencies.

Would you overlook Poe being a mary sue if he were a she?

 

[Kinitari]

Now that I've finally seen the movie: lolololol

The character that most fits Mary Sue tropes is actually Kylo Ren. OC who's a child of two of the previous leads, trained by the third, grandson of Darth Vader, strong in the force, has his own special lightsaber, turns out to basically be a kid under the mask. Oh, and he kills off a lead. Would be suuuuuper suspect if this was a fanfic.

I didn't really have a problem with him, though. (Or Rey, obvs.) The only real issue I had with the movie was the scale. Seemed like you could get anywhere in the galaxy in about five minutes.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot Po. Poe? Anyway. "BEST PILOT IN THA RESISTANCE" is also p Mary Sueish lbr. And he wasn't a very interesting character.

Kylo Ren? Poe I get - he's the biggest example of this in the movie, but I think an important part of being a mary sue is being... I don't know... liked? A character that you are envious of and want to be? A character who doesn't repeatedly fuck up and make mistakes (not capturing droid, letting Rey escape) or doesn't slowly lose his shit and get worse at fighting?

Really - you think he's more of a MS or whatever than Rey?

 

[Cyan]

Kylo Ren? Poe I get - he's the biggest example of this in the movie, but I think an important part of being a mary sue is being... I don't know... liked? A character that you are envious of and want to be? A character who doesn't repeatedly fuck up and make mistakes (not capturing droid, letting Rey escape) or doesn't slowly lose his shit and get worse at fighting?

Really - you think he's more of a MS or whatever than Rey?

No, being liked isn't it. Being important is what matters, especially in relation to the original material. Let's take Harry Potter fandom. Kylo Ren would be the equivalent of, say, Hermione and Ron having a kid, who is trained in magic by Harry, is somehow the heir of Voldemort, has a cool magic wand that is different from everyone else's, is high up in the badguy hierarchy despite being a kid, etc etc. That is a whole lot of boxes ticked. It doesn't matter that he loses--of course the bad guy is going to lose in the end

So yes, absolutely, the character throwing up the most Sue red flags is Kylo Ren and not Rey.

 

[funkystudent]

Rey being written like the ultimate Bioware game main character is probably the weakest part of the film for me as a adult who cares about things like believability but my friends little sister loves her now and seeing a Star Wars character resonate with a little girl like that warms my heart so I can let it fly.

I wish there was a better term for it then Mary Sue though. For some reason it feels dirty and automatically sexist to type but it does fit the issues with her quite well.


Poe feels like a character who was gonna die earlier in the movie and they decided late in the process that they wanted to keep him alive so they did and they didnt really do a good job patching over the early script where he died. Which I guess which is pretty close to what actually happened since he was gonna die in the crash originally but they liked the actors performance enough to rewrite the role to keep him. His later apperances just feel awkwardly inserted.


BUT I do feel like Rey and Kylo Ren are half told stories as is. They went a bit overboard with teasing things they plan to pay off in later movies with them. (Another one of the things I would knock the movie for. Too much teasing and obvious set up for later movies)

 

[DryEyeRelief]

No, being liked isn't it. Being important is what matters, especially in relation to the original material.

That distinction doesn't matter. Being liked or important. The function of a mary sue, is being a character that one lives vicariously through. Hence them being too wise, too strong, what have you, given the story's premise. How can you connect it to fan fiction without realizing this concept?

Given your example, maybe Kylo Ren has important bloodlines but that doesn't make him that type of character unless people in the story were constantly complimenting him on said relationships. Like, if the story was constantly talking about how Kylo Ren had even more Midi-chlorians than Darth Vader, a previous tool used to talk about how much potential Anakin had, then yeah your point would be true. But his relationships to Leia and Han are plot related. They aren't about hyping him up.

And I think you completely missed the point of Kylo Ren removing his mask, revealing himself to be a "kid".

 

[Cyan]

That distinction doesn't matter. Being liked or important. The function of a mary sue, is being a character that one lives vicariously through.

I'm not sure I'm reading you right, but if so that's not correct. People generally don't like Mary Sues (cf. Wesley Crusher). No one except the author wants to live vicariously through them. A cool character that people want to live vicariously through isn't a Mary Sue, that's just a character. Luke Skywalker is just a character. Han Solo is just a character. etc.

How can you connect it to fan fiction without realizing this concept?

The whole idea of a Mary Sue comes from fanfiction. This isn't a connection I'm making, that's what it is. It's in reference to people writing Star Trek fanfics and adding their own new characters who are super special ("the youngest communications officer in Starfleet, smarter than Spock, a better doctor than Bones," etc) and who don't fit well with the universe, because they're obviously the author just wanting to be in that universe themselves.

This is what makes those characters a problem. They're not interesting to anyone outside the author.

 

[The Librarian]

Come on, there's more reason to it than that.

At the root of it all? No...I don't think there is.

Because there are fewer female characters, they get more scrutiny than your average male.

 

[igordennis]

Oh boy arguments about what Mary Sue means or doesn't mean again. Deja vu

Like Veelk said some time ago, this is why the Mary Sue label is ultimately meaningless to use these days. Because no one can agree on what it means since the term has been so misused and had it's meaning warped. The discussion moves from the character to the term itself. Hence why using it (if you want to say something about the character) is not that productive at all.

 

[Astral Dog]

Now that I've finally seen the movie: lolololol

The character that most fits Mary Sue tropes is actually Kylo Ren. OC who's a child of two of the previous leads, trained by the third, grandson of Darth Vader, strong in the force, has his own special lightsaber, turns out to basically be a kid under the mask. Oh, and he kills off a lead. Would be suuuuuper suspect if this was a fanfic.

I didn't really have a problem with him, though. (Or Rey, obvs.) The only real issue I had with the movie was the scale. Seemed like you could get anywhere in the galaxy in about five minutes.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot Po. Poe? Anyway. "BEST PILOT IN THA RESISTANCE" is also p Mary Sueish lbr. And he wasn't a very interesting character.

Kylo is certainly no Marty Stu

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I'm not sure I'm reading you right, but if so that's not correct. People generally don't like Mary Sues (cf. Wesley Crusher). No one except the author wants to live vicariously through them. A cool character that people want to live vicariously through isn't a Mary Sue, that's just a character. Luke Skywalker is just a character. Han Solo is just a character. etc.

Luke is just a character? Haven't you been reading this thread? Luke is just as much of a mary sue as Rey is!

 

[Cyan]

Luke is just a character? Haven't you been reading this thread? Luke is just as much of a mary sue as Rey is!

Oh. Thanks for the warning. Outie.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Oh boy arguments about what Mary Sue means or doesn't mean again. Deja vu

Like Veelk said some time ago, this is why the Mary Sue label is ultimately meaningless to use these days. Because no one can agree on what it means since the term has been so misused and had it's meaning warped. The discussion moves from the character to the term itself. Hence why using it (if you want to say something about the character) is not that productive at all.

It shouldn't matter to anyone actually looking for discussion, since ultimately this is more about Rey design as the main character. Even with a different meaning of mary sue, it should be pretty apparent what the person's opinion is

Cyan has no problem with Rey, evidently. Conversations involving only one person typically don't amount to much though.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

It's pretty apparent that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, I think this thread has shown that. We might need a "Force Awakens Nitpick Thread", there are plenty of other things to complain about than Rey.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

It's pretty apparent that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, I think this thread has shown that. We might need a "Force Awakens Nitpick Thread", there are plenty of other things to complain about than Rey.

This thread has shown that not only that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, but that even if she were a Mary Sue that Luke and Anakin were just as bad and even if she were a Mary Sue, it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Covered all the bases

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

This thread has shown that not only that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, but that even if she was a Mary Sue that Luke and Anakin were just as bad and even if she was Mary Sue, it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Covered all the bases

This thread has proved every character in fiction, past/present/future is a Mary Sue.

(I still feel there are script issues that impact Rey to a degree, but they effect other characters as well, and that's a discussion for another thread not branded with "Mary Sue" in the title.)

 

[shoreu]

I don't see how she's a mary sue that fight was just stupid at the end.

 

[Trident]

I don't think there's an issue with Rey being too powerful - Batman is just as versatile in strength, intelligence, and abilities.

The problem with Rey is that the development of her skills is unearned to the viewer. Characters either need to be introduced already developed or given some time/experiences to provide that development - otherwise it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Giver her a montage or two (or something less hokey), and it'd be fine. As it is, it's not great storytelling, but also not the end of the world.

 

[Magwik]

I don't think there's an issue with Rey being too powerful - Batman is just as versatile in strength, intelligence, and abilities.

The problem with Rey is that the development of her skills is unearned to the viewer. Characters either need to be introduced already developed or given some time/experiences to provide that development - otherwise it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Giver her a montage or two (or something less hokey), and it'd be fine. As it is, it's not great storytelling, but also not the end of the world.

What would a force montage look like? Staring at things really angrily?

 

[Trident]

What would a force montage look like? Staring at things really angrily?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuOWoiSl9A

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

What would a force montage look like? Staring at things really angrily?

I think a less cliche example is Rey vaguely showing a lesser version of a force power earlier in the movie. Case in point, when Rey is asking Finn to hand her the tool in the Falcon, have her get frustrated and force pull it...have BB-8 notice and not Finn, audience laughs, etc. Quick, cute, simple, hints at things earlier.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't think there's an issue with Rey being too powerful - Batman is just as versatile in strength, intelligence, and abilities.

The problem with Rey is that the development of her skills is unearned to the viewer. Characters either need to be introduced already developed or given some time/experiences to provide that development - otherwise it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Giver her a montage or two (or something less hokey), and it'd be fine. As it is, it's not great storytelling, but also not the end of the world.

Her practical skill are earned via her background and setting (melee fighting, climbing, ship repairs, etc). Her force abilities are as earned as Luke's in ANH, but instead of a verbal teacher ("stretch out with your feelings") Rey learns through hard knocks from Kylo, ala the mind reading scene. tbh it feels more earned that Luke in ANH, because Rey has to have them used on her several times before she picks up on anything. She goes through hell learning what Force users can do. Luke gets a couple of fortune cookie phrases.

 

[Trident]

Her practical skill are earned via her background and setting (melee fighting, climbing, ship repairs, etc). Her force abilities are as earned as Luke's in ANH, but instead of a verbal teacher ("stretch out with your feelings") Rey learns through hard knocks from Kylo, ala the mind reading scene. tbh it feels more earned that Luke in ANH, because Rey has to have them used on her several times before she picks up on anything. She goes through hell learning what Force users can do.

I don't think there's any issue with her practical skills - they fall into "already developed" category that I mentioned earlier - so I think we're in agreement there.

As for un-tapping her force potential, I don't really see how anything she experienced in the movie could reasonably be construed as a training experience. If I remember correctly, she succeeds at everything against an actual opponent in the first scene its introduced to her - mind reading, force speech, force pulls, etc.

For it to be training, I would expect at the very least a singular scene of either a) training or b) failure before successfully using a new ability against an opponent.

Edit: I should add that I don't think this is a "Mary Sue" issue, since I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue. Rather, this is just a basic storytelling issue, among many others in the new movie (which I nonetheless enjoyed).

 

[heliosRAzi]

At the root of it all? No...I don't think there is.

Because there are fewer female characters, they get more scrutiny than your average male.

Prove it.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I don't think there's any issue with her practical skills - they fall into "already developed" category that I mentioned earlier - so I think we're in agreement there.

As for un-tapping her force potential, I don't really see how anything she experienced in the movie could reasonably be construed as a training experience. If I remember correctly, she succeeds at everything against an actual opponent in the first scene its introduced to her - mind reading, force speech, force pulls, etc.

For it to be training, I would expect at the very least a singular scene of either a) training or b) failure before successfully using a new ability against an opponent.

Edit: I should add that I don't think this is a "Mary Sue" issue, since I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue. Rather, this is just a basic storytelling issue, among many others in the new movie (which I nonetheless enjoyed).

The way the story is structured now, I don't think Rey could have a training montage. Running away from Anakin's lightsaber in the middle of the story, only to force pull it to her hand in a sink or swim situation at the climax. Cue the force theme. That type of scene doesn't work if she already has prior commitment to becoming a jedi.

 

[Vagabundo]

I don't recall him ever training with his light sabre. IN FACT, Yoda steers him away from that shit and is like, "dawg, this ain't about lazer swords - it's about fear it is."

Anyway, I'm just saying they are clearly foreshadowing that Rey is unusual and special. Meanwhile they are also illustrating that Kylo isn't exactly an almighty Sith Lord - that second one is text - the movie directly talks about it.

Meanwhile, the villain just killed his dad and was shot by a gun that the movie made a point of setting up as pretty hefty.

Could they have set it up better? Sure. Is it as acceptable as Luke being a better fighter pilot than vader in ANH? Sure - who cares?

Don't get me wrong, the movie is dumb. as. fuck. but people get carried away. It's Star Wars, if it bugs you maybe consider graduating to better movies. Blue Ruin didn't have these threads

I probably should have been clearer. ANH and ESB are set three years apart in time, so I'm assuming that Luke has been practising with the force and lightsebreing in that time. I'm not up on all the EU stuff so I could be wrong. I just knew there was a few years of a time jump.

I agree on Kylo being weak as shit. He was presented as strong in the force at the start but he is probably just a glass cannon. He would have been a much better side character to a bigger bad guy who all the heroes join forces to weaken and kill, while Kylo and Rey go at it in the background of the main fight. It would have made the film stand on it's own better.

Kylo, Finn and Poe are a much bigger problems than Rey to me. I like Rey's character.

The problem with Star Wars bugging me is that I was specifically looking for a new Star Wars film and I don't feel remotely satisfied with what I got. No galactic politics really pissed me off. Seemed like they were aiming at the YA crowd here.

Anyway I just finished Jessica Jones and Killgrave is a much much better spoilt child villian and that cleansed my palette of TFA.

 

[Metal B]

Rey isn't a Mary Sue character, but she is dangerous close to one. The writing of the plot and the behind-the-scenes context are mainly to blame for this.

If you look into the character she isn't this all perfect and a everybody darlings character. She lives alone in the dessert, barley surviving and constantly get fucks over her loot. Later as she helps BB-8 and challenged with the possibility of selling him, we get to know, that she has a good heart. Up to this point, she is a good, simple character. Almost everything after that (with exception of the Mind-Reading Battle) puts Rey into auto-pilot-mode and isn't challenged again. Her accomplishments make sense for her experiences as an scavenger and force-sensitive person, but sadly it isn't told very well.

The problem becomes the plot, which makes her look overpowered and simply boring (the Superman problem). She is simply suited for everything, she encounters. Rey never has to face a problem, which isn't to big for her or she can get around. This creates a character, which has nothing to grow into and we have nothing to look forward to. Again the problem isn't the character, but the lack of challenge in the script for her. A story about a interesting flawed, genius mathematician, who only encounters math challenges, doesn't create an interesting or investing story.

This brings me to point, where she almost becomes a Mary Sue character. But i would much more call her an "Company Sue"-character. Rey is thrown into an adventure, that is designed to look her good. Everything is construed to make her look strong and appealing. All the edges are soften, that she doesn't look weak. For all the reason many people already pointed out. Disney wants to look capable to handle Star Wars and the characters should be heavily appealing.

In my opinion Disney, JJ and the other producers know exactly, that they gave Ray antishock pads for this movie. The next Star Wars movie will have more edge, originally and challenge the character similar to Empire Strikes Back in theme (but not in story bits, i hope).

 

[Raist]

Is this revealed in the OT somewhere.

I don't know about "revealed", but doesn't Vader tell Luke "you made your own lightsaber, your training is complete" or something like this?

 

[The Librarian]

Her practical skill are earned via her background and setting (melee fighting, climbing, ship repairs, etc). Her force abilities are as earned as Luke's in ANH, but instead of a verbal teacher ("stretch out with your feelings") Rey learns through hard knocks from Kylo, ala the mind reading scene. tbh it feels more earned that Luke in ANH, because Rey has to have them used on her several times before she picks up on anything. She goes through hell learning what Force users can do. Luke gets a couple of fortune cookie phrases.

People need to watch the movie more closely. After Rey is able to challenge Ben while he tries to read her mind — "You're afraid you're not as strong as Darth Vader" — he stops, suddenly. He looks scared, or at the very least extremely nervous.

And what does he do? He IMMEDIATELY goes to Snoke. He's concerned about *something*. He gets pissed when he realizes she's escaped. He tells a stormtrooper that the longer she's free, the more dangerous he becomes.

It's not much of a stress to conclude Kylo unlocked something in her.

 

[WedgeX]

I really like this OP.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot Po. Poe? Anyway. "BEST PILOT IN THA RESISTANCE" is also p Mary Sueish lbr. And he wasn't a very interesting character.

Someone had to fill in for Wedge since Denis Lawson declined to return. He definitely took over the role Wedge had in all of the old EU books.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The Force Awakens is on hyperspeed. It needs its characters to be good at things in almost an instant. Finn begins his transformation to a good guy in his first scene. Rey goes from doubting her piloting skills and crashing the Millennium Falcon a couple of times to doing sick-nasty maneuvers in it almost immediately. She also learns of her destiny, refuses it, and then accepts it all late in the movie. Finn wants to run, but he's not cowardly. He helps to practically deliver BB-8 to the Resistance when he could've used it as a bargaining chip. After meeting Maz, he runs, but then he has his change of heart after Hosnian was destroyed. For me, it all happens too fast to be believable. It's hard to grow with and relate to these characters because it all happens so fast.

 

[DragonSworne]

The Force Awakens is on hyperspeed. It needs its characters to be good at things in almost an instant. Finn begins his transformation to a good guy in his first scene. Rey goes from doubting her piloting skills and crashing the Millennium Falcon a couple of times to doing sick-nasty maneuvers in it almost immediately. She also learns of her destiny, refuses it, and then accepts it all late in the movie. Finn wants to run, but he's not cowardly. He helps to practically deliver BB-8 to the Resistance when he could've used it as a bargaining chip. After meeting Maz, he runs, but then he has his change of heart after Hosnian was destroyed. For me, it all happens too fast to be believable. It's hard to grow with and relate to these characters because it all happens so fast.

So it's like ESB?

Which is it folks, Is TFA a ANH rip off, a ESB rip off, or a ROTJ rip off?

 

[Principate]

Now that I've finally seen the movie: lolololol

The character that most fits Mary Sue tropes is actually Kylo Ren. OC who's a child of two of the previous leads, trained by the third, grandson of Darth Vader, strong in the force, has his own special lightsaber, turns out to basically be a kid under the mask. Oh, and he kills off a lead. Would be suuuuuper suspect if this was a fanfic.

I didn't really have a problem with him, though. (Or Rey, obvs.) The only real issue I had with the movie was the scale. Seemed like you could get anywhere in the galaxy in about five minutes.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot Po. Poe? Anyway. "BEST PILOT IN THA RESISTANCE" is also p Mary Sueish lbr. And he wasn't a very interesting character.

What on Earth are you talking about, that doesn't make any sense, a lot of people consider Ten a weak and intimidating villain and he lost a fight against a total novice. Even in the leant lenient common definition, I'm not sure how you can construe him as a Mary Sue. The only salient point you made was that he was strong on the force but as this movie clearly showed not that strong since Rey was stronger.

Seems like a very knee-jerk reaction ir ever I saw one. Is he a very fanservice character yes. But sucessful he is not.

 

[heliosRAzi]

So it's like ESB?

Which is it folks, Is TFA a ANH rip off, a ESB rip off, or a ROTJ rip off?

... I don't follow. And I found ESB to be boring when I watched it recently.

 

[DragonSworne]

... I don't follow. And I found ESB to be boring when I watched it recently.

ESB has some of the most unbelievable elements in Star Wars. The scale of time and the universe are tiny in ESB. The character motives of Lando, Luke, and Vader are more driven by convenience to move the story along then to actually develop the characters. Just move the plot along.

There is a reason why ESB got heavily mixed reviews when it came out. The passage of time and the disappointing ROTJ made ESB retroactively better.

ANH is by far the best Star Wars movie of the OT as it holds up as a standalone title with few flaws.

 

[heliosRAzi]

ESB has some of the most unbelievable elements in Star Wars. The scale of time and the universe are tiny in ESB. The character motives of Lando, Luke, and Vader are more driven by convenience to move the story along then to actually develop the characters. Just move the plot along.

I disagree. Lando, maybe, but Vader and Luke, nah.

But I see what you're saying. These characters are being changed to suit the needs of the plot instead of the plot changing them.

ANH is by far the best Star Wars movie of the OT as it holds up as a standalone title with few flaws.

ANH is my favorite, but it could be nostalgia talking.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

The Force Awakens is on hyperspeed. It needs its characters to be good at things in almost an instant. Finn begins his transformation to a good guy in his first scene. Rey goes from doubting her piloting skills and crashing the Millennium Falcon a couple of times to doing sick-nasty maneuvers in it almost immediately. She also learns of her destiny, refuses it, and then accepts it all late in the movie. Finn wants to run, but he's not cowardly. He helps to practically deliver BB-8 to the Resistance when he could've used it as a bargaining chip. After meeting Maz, he runs, but then he has his change of heart after Hosnian was destroyed. For me, it all happens too fast to be believable. It's hard to grow with and relate to these characters because it all happens so fast.

I can't remember if this has been posted, it likely has been, but Birth Movies Death wrote an article on some of the issues I've touched on:

The Force Awakens is a conflicted film clearly resulting from some story changes late in the game, but one that gets by on its incredible characters and the delightful actors portraying them.

The gist is the late script rewrites, story construction choices, and ultra-streamlined editing, impacted and/or lessened some of beats of Rey's character arc. There is an interesting comparison between both Finn and Rey refusing the hero's call, and it also makes some interesting points about how the audience still largely connects with how things play out, but that there are some issues that can make those moments also seem a bit anticlimactic.

I'm sure it will be completely dismissed in here, but I think it has some merit.

 

[Kinitari]

Regarding whether or not you need to be trained with a lightsaber... You absolutely do. Episode 2 for example has obi wan and Anakin talking in a "car", and obi wan says singing along the lines "if you put as much effort into your light saber training as you did your driving, you could rival Yoda's skill".

You aren't just immediately good with the lightsaber, or at least you shouldn't be.