heliosRAzi
Banned
the part about Rey and Leia hugging got me. And it's completely true. They didn't know each other to have this intimate moment so it's unearned.
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
- Status
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a character employing a trope regardless. Given that there's a trope for everything, freaking out over one or saying "it's too tropey" is meaningless.
Father Time
Banned
Man you really had to stretch for this one
"--Expert shot with blasters (bullseyeing the blast door controls to cut off Vader when they are trying to escape)
-Perfect throw with cable to swing over the chasm with his sis"
One good shot and one good throw doesn't make you an expert. It could be (and probably was) a mixture of luck.
"-Blocks laser blasts while blind, three times a row, within moments of trying"
I remember the film cuts to him in the middle training without the blindfold, so it probably wasn't "within moments", plus it was the force guiding him.
And all of the rest of the skills can be explained by "he lives in a desert and works on robots and ships for fun"
Edit: speaking of the blindfolded laser thing, it shows him failing repeatedly and then needing guidance to overcome it rather than figuring out how to use the force all by himself. Compare that to Rey.
You made his argument for him.
I haven't read this thread front to back, but in the comments section of the Red Letter Media review, it seems like most of the developmentally arrested gamer gate types have a big problem with Rey becoming so proficient with the force and a lightsaber. One even had the gall to say that Abrams has "turned the force into space magic" instead of something that requires training so that Rey could be an object of empowerment (for their sworn enemy, the opposite gender). As Ghaleon listed off, did they actually see anything Luke did in Episode IV? The force was always fucking space magic, and it's nowhere outside the established "logic" of the force that it "chose" Rey for accelerated enlightenment, or fuck, that she is simply the strongest force user in the history of the SW universe so far. Yet that would give the man children even more aneurisms that a girl got that honor.
The same individuals harp on Kylo Ren being a truly bad "emo" character when he is very well wrought and complex, perhaps because of a freudian understanding that his petulant fanboy nature reflects their own. It's pathetic. Ben Solo throws tantrums when Rey meets miraculous success thanks to her being chosen by the Force, then real life angsty fanboys do the same. It's like poetry.
The same individuals harp on Kylo Ren being a truly bad "emo" character when he is very well wrought and complex, perhaps because of a freudian understanding that his petulant fanboy nature reflects their own. It's pathetic. Ben Solo throws tantrums when Rey meets miraculous success thanks to her being chosen by the Force, then real life angsty fanboys do the same. It's like poetry.
The One and Done
Member
Preach!
https://youtu.be/PokibvuMQwE
https://youtu.be/PokibvuMQwE
CassidyIzABeast
Member
The One and Done;191268149 said:
Star Wars Haters?
*closes tab*
The One and Done
Member
Andre is actually pretty funny and brings up some good points. Sorry it hurt you
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Some good points but like most things being critical of something is seen as "hate".The One and Done;191268149 said:
And when that happens it's easier to disregard those opinions.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Perfectly described how I feel about. There is no sort of build up, shit just happens kinda jarringly.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
I shut it off again after he said the only people who should be able to use the term mary sue are women named Mary Sue. No hard feelings towards brother Andre but the video was hot garbage.The One and Done;191268584 said:Andre is actually pretty funny and brings up some good points. Sorry it hurt you
The One and Done
Member
Don't be so hard on good ole Andre. He's making points but also he's likes to make a lot of jokes. His "rants" are meant to be comical and not taken super seriously. He's a really cool dude actually and I wouldn't define anything he does as garbage.
But to each their own.
A lightsaber is a sword. If you can use a sword, you can use a lightsaber. Jedi just happen to be better and more precise with them.
Mr. Pointy
Member
The BMD article pretty much hit the nail on the head. Rey is a great character who got a bunch of her backstory cut out for pacing reasons and/or selling novels/comics. The film is trying to take you from A to B as quickly as possible, meaning you miss some details.
See Nero from Star Trek 2009. All his good backstory is in the bullshit tie-in comic prequel.
See Nero from Star Trek 2009. All his good backstory is in the bullshit tie-in comic prequel.
excelsiorlef
Member
Cut? More like saved for further stories.
VendettaRed07
Member
All stereoTypes and character trope terms aside, Fins character sort of forced Rey to take the path it did. He's often scared not sure of himself and doesn't really have any skills. Having both main characters struggle throughout the movie would have been lame in a movie that's supposed to be fun fast paced in exciting
Only thing I really would have done differently, I would have changed the last fight against kylo ren where fin helped out in some way, like grabbed his leg while he was on the floor to give Rey an opening or something. I feel like the characters working together to beat kylo ren would have helped the drive the arc of the characters better too.
Only thing I really would have done differently, I would have changed the last fight against kylo ren where fin helped out in some way, like grabbed his leg while he was on the floor to give Rey an opening or something. I feel like the characters working together to beat kylo ren would have helped the drive the arc of the characters better too.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Yeah. I misspoke about backstory. I was thinking backstory because I was thinking of Nero. I'd say Rey's Force ability, her parentage and why she was left on Jakku being sequel fuel is more than fine because it will motivate her development through VIII and IX.
I feel some of Rey's Jakku scenes got cut, and that leaves what is left to explain why she can do certain things so well, kind of flimsy. Even with stretchy, single-line explanation, Star Wars-logic.
My main contention was her being a great pilot. For some reason, "Finn - Where's the pilot? Rey - We've got one" doesn't really work as well for me as T-16 womp rat Beggar's Canyon does. I understand the circumstances of those scenes were completely different, but VII's version doesn't fill that logical gap like IV's version did.
Rey fucking up the lift-off doesn't handwave her being able to drift and pull post-stall maneuvers in what effectively is a space truck. Star Wars-logic only stretches so far.
One could say the movie is trying to infer that Rey flew quadjumpers for Unkar Plutt, but I feel that's so much of a stretch that it falls into head-canon.
I heard they cut a bit where Rey was using a flight simulator at her condo, which I think would have been cool to see. That plus the exchange with Finn would have done okay with me.
Rey knowing her way her around the Millennium Falcon so well is, at most, a minor nitpick. It's noticeable, but only if you think about it and it doesn't really subtract from the experience. Her being a part scavenger + working for Unkar Plutt is enough explanation for her technical skill. The Millennium Falcon being there was set up as a surprise for SW nerds. That's fine.
Rey being able to deadeye Stormtroopers the first time with a blaster - that's fine. Star Wars does that shit all the time. The good guys can hit anything and the bad guys can't hit shit.
Rey being able to hold her own against a weakened Kylo Ren is explained by her fight with the thugs in the market + Kylo Ren was weakened and unfocused and he didn't want to kill her + The Light Side Of The Force + sequel bait.
ShinySylvee
Member
Alright, I'll bite.
First, I like how you've projected everyone that takes issues with the movie's characters as being a misogynistic gamer gate supporting emo. I suppose why bother looking at what they're saying when you can just discredit them by saying they're part of some undesirable group?
Do you even know what Luke did in ANH? He anticipated a couple of blaster shots and deflected them without seeing them and timed a proton torpedo shot well. Both of those things are something a padawan learner could do. Jedi mind tricks IIRC are exceedingly difficult and usually take a lot of training. I imagine they are going to have some backstory for her to explain why she's already so proficient at fighting and the force but if they're not she makes every other character in the entire history of Star Wars look like shit in comparison. No character has come close to learning things as fast as Rey has. Even if they come up with some justifiable reason as to why she's amazing at literally everything it doesn't change that she's never really failed at anything so far. Even the most powerful characters in Star Wars lose all the time. Obi-Wan got his ass kicked by Dooku twice, Yoda fails against Dooku and Palpatine, Luke loses to Vader and practically spends the entire first movie getting bailed out by Han, Leia, and Obi-Wan. Rey kinda had some troubles flying the Falcon (For the first minute or so. She then goes right into extremely advanced aerial maneuvers) and gets captured. (And easily frees herself) From a development standpoint she's already at where she should be by the end of the second movie at the beginning of the first. And the lack of credible villain kind of makes things lose tension.
Also Anakin Skywalker in Phantom Menace was just as bad. I would dislike Rey as a character regardless of whether they were male or female. I like how it's impossible to dislike the character without being labeled a sexist.
I've never liked characters like Kylo in any form of storytelling. Just because he's "deep" and "compelling" doesn't mean I immediately have to like him. I hate him because he's a brat and is a complete joke as a villain. Not because there is any IRL similarities with myself.
There's absolutely no mention of how complicated or uncomplicated Jedi mind tricks are in any of the movies. In the movies they appear to be fairly simple to do, since people are throwing them out on the fly, but with a fairly low success rate. And the idea that you require so much "training" to "unlock" mind tricks is an RPG mechanic from a video game, now how the Force actually works in the movies.
heliosRAzi
Banned
And that is what leads to the Mary Sue complaints. It's on the verge of an ass pull.
excelsiorlef
Member
Everything has a build. You might not like the speed but all the ducks are in a row
That's the force. It is an ass pull. It's a plot device that services whatever the writers need it to do.
Also Finn doesn't have a change of heart after seeing the Hosnian planet get fucked. He literally lies to the entire Resistance to get onto Starkiller to rescue Rey because he has a hard on for her.
excelsiorlef
Member
Well I meam he does that's what brings him back to Han. Rey just happens to get taken right at that moment too.
heliosRAzi
Banned
The speed is important. Not in-universe time, but where it happens in the movie. Her Force developments ramps up in the last half of the movie that pulls me out of the movie.
The Force is most certainly not an ass pull. It's not meant to be a deus ex machina. It is the spiritual, something someone has to grow into and accept and that belief changes the user. We really don't see Rey racked with doubt besides her touching the lightsaber. After that, she believed.
Which, by itself, is not a problem. It's just introduced way too late. For me. Personally. My own opinion.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
One of the major differences between good fantasy writing and bad fantasy writing is specifically how the magic system is set up. If the magic has rules and limitations, it doesn't get used as a get out of jail card for skipping development or an automatic win button if the character gets written into a corner...at least all the time.
Between the OT, prequel trilogy, animated shows, and the now non-canon EU, force use and lightsaber use has had a certain general progression that writers have used more than they haven't, that conveyed/implied a certain rule to some percentage of the audience.
I can't fault either side in this argument, the force has enough wiggle-room in it for both cases to made. It's neither a RPG-level system, nor is it a "Force did it, don't ask questions" situation. My point has always been if we are having this discussion over and over, it's likely because the movie didn't do a good enough job conveying something it should have.
I really wish people would stop glomming on various pop criticisms as a way to escape having to actually think about what they're consuming.
Death of the author is a literary criticism theory (and a heavily disputed one at that). It's not an excuse to claim that your misreading of Maus as an attack towards industrial meat farms is as valid as the author's intention.
Any work that references something else isn't suddenly making metacommentary.
Any character that you feel is too great at everything isn't a Mary Sue.
Death of the author is a literary criticism theory (and a heavily disputed one at that). It's not an excuse to claim that your misreading of Maus as an attack towards industrial meat farms is as valid as the author's intention.
Any work that references something else isn't suddenly making metacommentary.
Any character that you feel is too great at everything isn't a Mary Sue.
ESB is a 2 hour chase scene that gets small moments to breathe when Luke is training on Dagobah.
If you don't like hyperspeed, blame the prequels. People have had 10-15 years to opine on the shortcomings of the PT, political deliberation and poorly paced exposition are the main culprits, and you were never going to find any of that in this movie because those aspects were so heavily criticized.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I don't hold ESB in high esteem like other folks. The stuff between Luke and Yoda were great, but it took forever for Han/Chewie/Leia to get anywhere important. I don't like that asteroid. While watching the battle on Hoth, I kept thinking why they needed to trip the AT-ATs instead of just pulling them over.
Lol no. TFA didn't need to be on hyperspeed because of the prequels.
DryEyeRelief
Member
The One and Done™;191268149 said:
I agree. TFA and star wars gets taken too seriously. They're like the Michael Bay transformer and ninja turtles movies. All this hate when people nitpick the prequels for star wars is very similar.
Even George Lucas said it himself. They're for kids.
Someone who never knew about the Force, had never heard used a sword before, used one while anticipating where lasers fired point blank were going to land, and deflects them with pinpoint accuracy three times in a row. While blind. Within a minute or so of his first attempt.
Luke is a farmer. That is off the charts crazy, but we've rolled with it for decades without issue.
Luke pulls off a shot described as "impossible, even with a computer" on his first attempt, after Obi-wan tells him to "use the Force", when it's something he has never done before. But again, we've rolled with it for decades without issue.
After how much training? They were in a school.
Not established in the films at all.
Luke learned the only two things Obi-wan taught him instantly. He picked up on what he does in ANH as fast or faster than anything Rey does. This is not really disputable.
Rey learned (some) of what Kylo Ren taught her also instantly. There's a tight parallel in their first conscience use of the Force: Rey fails at her first attempt at using the Force (mind trick) twice. Just as Luke fails to block the first few shots fired at him from the training bot. But once they let go a bit, they pull it off.
He just taught her different things. Rey had both more things taught to her, and more cause to try and use them, given her situation.
Compare Rey's actions to Luke in ANH. What were Luke's failures? At what point was he faced with a test and he failed it?
Fancy Clown
Member
What? No. Empire is the only great Star Wars movie. Better characterization of all characters, tighter structuring, great use of theme and subtly building up on the paternal struggle between Vader and Luke while deepening both of the their characters and tying it in to the central force conceit of the series, best setpieces, best production design, everyone involved gives their best performance of the three movies, best cinematography, best dramatic stakes, best editing by far....I could go on and on.
A New Hope is good, but it's a much messier movie with less interesting characters, the direction and pacing aren't as taught--while nothing is in fact.
Nothing makes Empire retoractively better because it is a singularly great movie.
In case anyone was curious, the quote is:
"If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda."
Of course, there's wiggle room, as techniques can function as a stand in word for training (Lucas likes to word things awkwardly) but it can also function as a stand in for an advanced way of doing something.
That being said, they're training infants to use sabers in an advanced way (blocking laser shots). So, is it training, or is it "training"?
For me, there's being good with a lightsaber (ala a pike) to attack and defend with.. and then there's being good with a lightsaber (blocking laser blasts). Rey falls into the former, while leaving room to become "good" with a lightsaber.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Here's my fix for the final battle
Drop the stupid "the force?" thing.
"You need a trainer, let me show you the ways of the force" isn't some goofy ass trigger to Rey unlocking maximum force power through mid-battle meditation.
The audacity of this punk to suggest that he could teach her anything after killing the people that have come anywhere close to being like family to her pisses her the hell off and she goes ape shit on his ass.
End of the fight plays out the same way.
The only difference is that there's a little bit of joy on Kylo's face along with the fear as he sits up after getting that nasty scar. Rey's power scares him but the ability to pull anger out her makes him feel like it wasn't a complete loss.
Drop the stupid "the force?" thing.
"You need a trainer, let me show you the ways of the force" isn't some goofy ass trigger to Rey unlocking maximum force power through mid-battle meditation.
The audacity of this punk to suggest that he could teach her anything after killing the people that have come anywhere close to being like family to her pisses her the hell off and she goes ape shit on his ass.
End of the fight plays out the same way.
The only difference is that there's a little bit of joy on Kylo's face along with the fear as he sits up after getting that nasty scar. Rey's power scares him but the ability to pull anger out her makes him feel like it wasn't a complete loss.
FriendlyGoat
Member
This isn't a problem. Luke beat the empire when he blew up the Death Star and Anakin helped beat the Trade Federation when he blew up that ship in the first film. Vader also lost in Round 1 when he was popped by Han before he could pop Luke. It wasn't until the second ones that Luke and Anakin finally lost to Vader (back for round 2) and Dooku.
Be fair. Give Rey a chance to fail and Ren a chance to collect himself and revenge. He clearly wasn't at the top of his game. Unless we are criticizing our Star Wars heroes winning their first time out as a whole, then I guess this is fair game.
ShinySylvee
Member
"Someone who never knew about the Force, had never heard used a sword before, used one while anticipating where lasers fired point blank were going to land, and deflects them with pinpoint accuracy three times in a row. While blind. Within a minute or so of his first attempt.
Luke is a farmer. That is off the charts crazy, but we've rolled with it for decades without issue."
Literally every Jedi ever has been able to deflect blaster shots. Given it was what Obi-Wan was teaching him first I'm fairly certain it's a fairly basic skill. My sort of interpretation of how blaster deflection works is that they preconceive where the shot will be and put their lightsaber there to deflect it. If that's how it works, having vision really wouldn't help much.
"Luke pulls off a shot described as "impossible, even with a computer" on his first attempt, after Obi-wan tells him to "use the Force", when it's something he has never done before. But again, we've rolled with it for decades without issue"
That and the "one in a million" lines I don't really buy. We don't know the guy at all. He could just be claiming that because he knew he couldn't do it. There's nothing to prove the guy's expertise on the subject. Same with Han. How could he possibly know the exact chances of hitting the shot? Again landing that shot comes down to anticipation and PM Anakin's pod racing was similar but he had no training at all.
"After how much training? They were in a school."
Luke was being taught by Obi-Wan.
"Not established in the films at all."
It is established better in the Clone Wars, which is also canon.
"Luke learned the only two things Obi-wan taught him instantly. He picked up on what he does in ANH as fast or faster than anything Rey does. This is not really disputable."
The two things he learned aren't very hard at all compared to...
"Rey learned (some) of what Kylo Ren taught her also instantly. There's a tight parallel in their first conscience use of the Force: Rey fails at her first attempt at using the Force (mind trick) twice. Just as Luke fails to block the first few shots fired at him from the training bot. But once they let go a bit, they pull it off.
He just taught her different things. Rey had both more things taught to her, and more cause to try and use them, given her situation."
She out force-pulled Kylo, resisted his mind reading and did it to him, and performed a Jedi mind trick. All of Luke's powers are things we've seen pretty much every Jedi do. Rey's ones we've only seen an elite group of Jedi do.
"Compare Rey's actions to Luke in ANH. What were Luke's failures? At what point was he faced with a test and he failed it?"
Luke was almost killed by some random thugs in the cantina before Obi saved him, gets tricked by R2 into letting him escape, is almost killed by the trash compactot monster, blows up the bridge controls he needs to get across a gap, and almost gets killed by sand people. He spends the whole movie whining and watching everyone else solve all the problems. Even his biggest moment requires him to be bailed out by Han. In most respects he's similar to Finn. They both slip up at times but show potential. With Rey they spend so much time trying to show how she's strong and doesn't need protecting that she solves pretty much every problem that is thrown at the group. There's not much room for her to grow as she's already a more powerful Jedi then 90% of them and that's before she's been trained by Luke.
Both Leia and Ahsoka from the Clone Wars TV series were great examples of complex but powerful female characters. Finn was awesome too as an example of a strong black lead, definitely the highlight of the movie for me. With Rey it feels like they went way overboard with the "empowered woman" trope that they're afraid to show her having any real moments of weakness which makes her a lot less relatable and enjoyable to me.
Luke is a farmer. That is off the charts crazy, but we've rolled with it for decades without issue."
Literally every Jedi ever has been able to deflect blaster shots. Given it was what Obi-Wan was teaching him first I'm fairly certain it's a fairly basic skill. My sort of interpretation of how blaster deflection works is that they preconceive where the shot will be and put their lightsaber there to deflect it. If that's how it works, having vision really wouldn't help much.
"Luke pulls off a shot described as "impossible, even with a computer" on his first attempt, after Obi-wan tells him to "use the Force", when it's something he has never done before. But again, we've rolled with it for decades without issue"
That and the "one in a million" lines I don't really buy. We don't know the guy at all. He could just be claiming that because he knew he couldn't do it. There's nothing to prove the guy's expertise on the subject. Same with Han. How could he possibly know the exact chances of hitting the shot? Again landing that shot comes down to anticipation and PM Anakin's pod racing was similar but he had no training at all.
"After how much training? They were in a school."
Luke was being taught by Obi-Wan.
"Not established in the films at all."
It is established better in the Clone Wars, which is also canon.
"Luke learned the only two things Obi-wan taught him instantly. He picked up on what he does in ANH as fast or faster than anything Rey does. This is not really disputable."
The two things he learned aren't very hard at all compared to...
"Rey learned (some) of what Kylo Ren taught her also instantly. There's a tight parallel in their first conscience use of the Force: Rey fails at her first attempt at using the Force (mind trick) twice. Just as Luke fails to block the first few shots fired at him from the training bot. But once they let go a bit, they pull it off.
He just taught her different things. Rey had both more things taught to her, and more cause to try and use them, given her situation."
She out force-pulled Kylo, resisted his mind reading and did it to him, and performed a Jedi mind trick. All of Luke's powers are things we've seen pretty much every Jedi do. Rey's ones we've only seen an elite group of Jedi do.
"Compare Rey's actions to Luke in ANH. What were Luke's failures? At what point was he faced with a test and he failed it?"
Luke was almost killed by some random thugs in the cantina before Obi saved him, gets tricked by R2 into letting him escape, is almost killed by the trash compactot monster, blows up the bridge controls he needs to get across a gap, and almost gets killed by sand people. He spends the whole movie whining and watching everyone else solve all the problems. Even his biggest moment requires him to be bailed out by Han. In most respects he's similar to Finn. They both slip up at times but show potential. With Rey they spend so much time trying to show how she's strong and doesn't need protecting that she solves pretty much every problem that is thrown at the group. There's not much room for her to grow as she's already a more powerful Jedi then 90% of them and that's before she's been trained by Luke.
Both Leia and Ahsoka from the Clone Wars TV series were great examples of complex but powerful female characters. Finn was awesome too as an example of a strong black lead, definitely the highlight of the movie for me. With Rey it feels like they went way overboard with the "empowered woman" trope that they're afraid to show her having any real moments of weakness which makes her a lot less relatable and enjoyable to me.
Father Time
Banned
Pointing out that Luke needs training and help to achieve things related to the force rather than suddenly being able to pull force persuasion out of his ass after never hearing about it before is making his argument for him?
Father Time
Banned
When the hell was the force established as some sentient being that could choose people? The force connects everyone.
"Yeah take that people who disagree with me. You're all a bunch of whiny women hating straw people."
I believe I said I couldn't speak for the neogaf population, the people I was talking about were in a YouTube comments section.
Regardless, thinking Rey sucks for being too good at the force too fast compared to the Skywalker boys DOES NOT make you a sexist gamergate type. It's just the #1 opinion of TFA with sexist gamergate types.
It's literally the main thrust of the movie that the force is "awakening" and Rey is the conduit. Perhaps her accelerated abilities are necessary in episode VII so that by IX she's moving whole star destroyers. Who knows? My point is that bitching that JJ has ignored established "rules of the force" in order to empower a woman is beyond silly when we haven't seen the end point of her power.
The first movie, both in the sense of Ep4 and Ep1.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Bar set pretty low there.
Just because a character exists to be subversive, doesn't automatically mean they're good characters.
LegendofLex
Member
heliosRAzi
Banned
In his defense, the Force is in all living things
LegendofLex
Member
Some more than others, apparently!
To be fair, in every display of Force ability we observe in both ANH and ESB, the only time Luke ever struggles is when he doesn't believe.
And the solution to overcoming his struggles is in literally every case to believe.
Gee I dunno, how about when it immaculately conceived Anakin?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The Force is whatever the plot demands it to be. Arguing about it seems really inane, lol.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Then that cheapens the Force and those who use it. IMO. Having something be what the plot demands is a great way for me to be uninterested. It robs situations of tension and excitement.
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