He might be a weak villain, but he's a super well-characterized one.
So I don't think he's a bad villain in the end, only going by this first movie
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
- Status
He might be a weak villain, but he's a super well-characterized one.
So I don't think he's a bad villain in the end, only going by this first movie
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Ehhh I don't want a deconstruction of a stupid fanboy as the main villain of a Star Wars movie, and I can't imagine who would want that. I want a scary motherfucker like Darth Vader or a badass motherfucker like Tarkin (with a more badass title though, please... "Grand Moff", pfft), or a creepy motherfucker like the Emperor.
That doesn't mean having these same characters again, of course. But something closer to them, characters with an impressive presence, that are threatening and larger than life. Not a malformed Jon Snow who throws temper tantrums and a cartoony Hitler Youth poster boy. xD YMMV I guess, but I thought all the villains in TFA really sucked. Even Brienne was disappointing in how inept she was.
Note: I'm not into the SW universe that much, so that is the basis for my feelings on the movie.
Handling handheld weapons isn't like a video game: being good at one doesn't make you good at all of them. Especially when you're fighting someone who is supposedly skilled and trained in saber combat. Even if they're injured, I would take a trained fencing professional vs someone who's never done fencing before.
Kylo Ren not a Sith, sorry. My bad. However, he still has access to the Force too, and is much more trained at it.
The thing is, she didn't believe it for the first of the fight and was still able to at least hold him off. That's not very believable to me, sorry.
Handling handheld weapons isn't like a video game: being good at one doesn't make you good at all of them. Especially when you're fighting someone who is supposedly skilled and trained in saber combat. Even if they're injured, I would take a trained fencing professional vs someone who's never done fencing before.
Kylo Ren not a Sith, sorry. My bad. However, he still has access to the Force too, and is much more trained at it.
The thing is, she didn't believe it for the first of the fight and was still able to at least hold him off. That's not very believable to me, sorry.
Well I don't particuarly care about how badass a villain is. Ren is interested because he is obviously, painfully, flawed and vulnerable. He actually reminded me of a duped up Commodus from Gladiator, another villain I loved.
I don't really have an opinion on Rey's Mary Sue levels. However I didn't really like seeing Kylo lose in the first movie. There are good enough reasons as to why he did, but idk...now we'll see him lose twice probably. Kinda weak :|
Maybe I'm just too used to stories that have the bad guys with the upper hand until the victory at the end.
Maybe I'm just too used to stories that have the bad guys with the upper hand until the victory at the end.
The Librarian
Banned
She wasn't holding him off. She was on the run for most of the fight!
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I do, at least in Star Wars. Gladiator isn't Star Wars so I have different hopes and expectations from a movie like that.
Also, a villain can have weaknesses and vulnerabilities of course, without being so inept. Kylro Ren was just so... lame.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I don't think Kylo tried to tempt Rey during the fight because he knew he was at the end of his rope and needed an out. Quite the opposite. He did it because he is trying to be confident in his channeling of the dark side and show of skill to the person on the light side. In this moment he imagined it would've been what Vader would've done as he did to Luke.
As it turns out Rey's use of the force is actually strong as well and she is able to best him. I agree with the rest though.
As it turns out Rey's use of the force is actually strong as well and she is able to best him. I agree with the rest though.
plasmawave
Banned
Kylo Ren who can force freeze a blaster laser mid air.
Kylo Ren who can force pull someone from across the room.
Kylo Ren who can force mind read.
Kylo Ren who can deflect blaster lasers with light saber with ease.
Rei who can force mind trick after 10 second.
Rei who can force mind read block against Kylo Ren who's been trained by both Luke and the Dark Side.
Rei who can win the force light saber pull against Kylo Ren who's been trained by both Luke and the Dark Side.
Mary Sue feels like one of those terms that might be useful (but maybe not entirely accurate) but has been poisoned so much that even using the term makes the conversation revolve around the word instead if the issues. It also frustrates that I'm seeing two things I pretty much expected playing out:
A) A non-zero amount of criticism likely indeed stems solely from the fact that Rey is female
B) However, a common deflection of any criticisms, regardless of its validity, is "you only have a problem with her because she's a woman" or "if everything was exactly the same but Rey was a dude you'd have no issues with it" which are just presumptuous and stifling to conversation unless you can prove some overt hypocrisy on the other party's part.
Regarding Rey, I appreciated how self-sufficient she was but she was kind of boring and she was REALLY GOOD at a whole lot of things. Like did Luke use Force Suggestion at all over the course of the entire original trilogy? Certainly not in A New Hope. For someone who spent most of her life as a scavenger on "Desert World" she seems unusually good at engineering, piloting, marksmanship, force powers (which she learned of all of like 20 minutes beforehand), sword wielding, etc. (To be fair, the fact that Kylo Ren was PATHETIC probably makes her seem hyper competent) She doesn't really have any major vices or quirks and is always a bit of a "goody-goody". Finn taking the "selfish & cowardly person who has to be talked into doing the right thing" route was cliched but it made him feel more fleshed out and more like a character with an actual arc in this movie.
When someone is using the term "Mary Sue" I don't think they literally mean "character who warps the narrative around them in a bad way" even if that is the most accurate usage of the term. I heard it being thrown around a bit before I saw the movie and at first assumed it might just be some salty SW fans letting off some steam and ignored it. Having now actually watched the movie myself, its clear they were using the term incorrectly and shouldn't have used it at all but I can at least see what might have prompted them to move towards that word choice. What some of them probably meant was "character without a particularly interesting personality that seems unusually adept at a wide range of skills".
P.S. Holy shit was Kylo Ren worthless. Like goddamn what a trash villain. All the villains were trash in this movie. Phantasma had the presence but she didn't get to do shit, Young Hitler was pretty much just LOL and where the fuck did Snoke come from? CG Holograms the the sidelines don't invoke fear.
A) A non-zero amount of criticism likely indeed stems solely from the fact that Rey is female
B) However, a common deflection of any criticisms, regardless of its validity, is "you only have a problem with her because she's a woman" or "if everything was exactly the same but Rey was a dude you'd have no issues with it" which are just presumptuous and stifling to conversation unless you can prove some overt hypocrisy on the other party's part.
Regarding Rey, I appreciated how self-sufficient she was but she was kind of boring and she was REALLY GOOD at a whole lot of things. Like did Luke use Force Suggestion at all over the course of the entire original trilogy? Certainly not in A New Hope. For someone who spent most of her life as a scavenger on "Desert World" she seems unusually good at engineering, piloting, marksmanship, force powers (which she learned of all of like 20 minutes beforehand), sword wielding, etc. (To be fair, the fact that Kylo Ren was PATHETIC probably makes her seem hyper competent
) She doesn't really have any major vices or quirks and is always a bit of a "goody-goody". Finn taking the "selfish & cowardly person who has to be talked into doing the right thing" route was cliched but it made him feel more fleshed out and more like a character with an actual arc in this movie.When someone is using the term "Mary Sue" I don't think they literally mean "character who warps the narrative around them in a bad way" even if that is the most accurate usage of the term. I heard it being thrown around a bit before I saw the movie and at first assumed it might just be some salty SW fans letting off some steam and ignored it. Having now actually watched the movie myself, its clear they were using the term incorrectly and shouldn't have used it at all but I can at least see what might have prompted them to move towards that word choice. What some of them probably meant was "character without a particularly interesting personality that seems unusually adept at a wide range of skills".
P.S. Holy shit was Kylo Ren worthless. Like goddamn what a trash villain. All the villains were trash in this movie. Phantasma had the presence but she didn't get to do shit, Young Hitler was pretty much just LOL and where the fuck did Snoke come from? CG Holograms the the sidelines don't invoke fear.
I may be misremembering, but didn't she land a hit on him before her whole Force realization thing?
IdreamofHIME
Member
I just feel that people calling her a Mary Sue are looking for much more from these movies than they were ever meant to be. They are whimsical fantasy movies with Wizards and Knights battling evil in space.
Everything that happened in Force Awakens was to get Rey to Luke, not because she's a Mary Sue..but because the force wanted it. I mean she escapes in Luke's best friends ship so she can deliver a droid to Luke's Twin sister and when she picks up the lightsaber she has visions of Luke (a man she's never met) and can hear the voices of Lukes two masters (also never met).
The Sith are on the rise and the force has awakened a new hope, just like it did before.
The events in FA are not coincedences, they are the will of the force. It's the series' get out jail free card. Qui Gon meeting Anakin, Luke finding the droids.
To hate this, is to hate the series...and in which case...why care enough to have a problem?
Everything that happened in Force Awakens was to get Rey to Luke, not because she's a Mary Sue..but because the force wanted it. I mean she escapes in Luke's best friends ship so she can deliver a droid to Luke's Twin sister and when she picks up the lightsaber she has visions of Luke (a man she's never met) and can hear the voices of Lukes two masters (also never met).
The Sith are on the rise and the force has awakened a new hope, just like it did before.
The events in FA are not coincedences, they are the will of the force. It's the series' get out jail free card. Qui Gon meeting Anakin, Luke finding the droids.
To hate this, is to hate the series...and in which case...why care enough to have a problem?
You talking to me or Max Landis? lol
I don't think Finn "almost defeated" Kylo Ren anyway, even with the latter's handicaps. He got in one good hit and then got his ass completely handed to him and is currently in a coma. *shrug*
What's wild is that, I keep seeing this and it would appear to be a criticism (not by you necessarily, but when mentioned by others).
To me it's like... yup. That is a thing, that happened. It is interesting that that thing happened, and I would like to know more about it.
The idea that it's a negative out of the box that Rey is generally more capable than Luke sort of blows my mind.
Yeah I think he is an incredibly compelling villain from a character standpoint. The performance and the characterization have me really intrigued and for the things that this movie copies from A New Hope, I'm glad they deviated with him. It is hard to reconcile how powerful he is considering his first act of villainy is suspending a laser blast in mid air for minutes, getting shot in the gut, selling the shot, and then proceeding to fight like it ain't a problem. It's not the worst thing in the world at all, but it is needlessly messy.
Could not have said it better.
To me, the reactions means it worked. So I can't be that upset.
Her upbringing is harsh. She is a scavenger that spends her days exploring old Star Destroyers, AT-AT, and other ships. If she is lucky enough she may find something that allows her to get paid enough to survive. It makes sense she is mechanically inclined considering what she does for a living. It's perfectly reasonable that she can defend herself as she lives alone. Don't see a problem with her being skilled in those areas.
The final battle with Ren was much more believable than the previous mind battle. Ren was just shot with a Bowcaster. The same Bowcaster that we are reminded several times throughout the film is powerful enough to send Stormtroopers flying through the air. He is weak, hurt, slightly unhinged, and still holds his own. He was only beaten once Rey tapped into the force.
She has some character growth in the film. She has moments of weakness.
As good as any reason Luke had for pulling off any of his feats.
The final battle with Ren was much more believable than the previous mind battle. Ren was just shot with a Bowcaster. The same Bowcaster that we are reminded several times throughout the film is powerful enough to send Stormtroopers flying through the air. He is weak, hurt, slightly unhinged, and still holds his own. He was only beaten once Rey tapped into the force.
She has some character growth in the film. She has moments of weakness.
As good as any reason Luke had for pulling off any of his feats.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's probably not the primary thrust of the character, but it's definitely in there. His whole character is where he is because he is hell-bent on learning the wrongest lessons from his own history. He's taking all the worst parts of the story of Star Wars and championing them as if those were the parts that needed more light shone on them.
Maybe that'll turn him into the mean, badass, cold-as-ice killing machine we're more used to in Star Wars (Vader, Maul) as he moves along and collects more and more atrocities, but for now, as he is in this movie, part of the tragedy of the character (and the reason he's dislikable) is that it's obvious he has options he could take that would allow him out of this shitty cosplay he's wearing, but he just refuses to take them. He doesn't have to do any of this.
Anakin at least felt like he had to do this, that there was no other choice. Ben absolutely has a choice, he just refuses to acknowledge it. And that's stupid as fuck, and he knows it at some point.
When he's in control and unchallenged. When he's essentially bullying people into believing the bullshit he's selling about himself.
Kylo Ren is like a supremely talented athlete who draws two fouls in the first quarter and considers faking an ankle injury to get off the court. He's like that guy who learns two super moves before anyone else in the fighting game, and spams the living shit out of them like he's a badass, but panics, folds, and throws the controller once someone figures out how to counter his bullshit.
The danger isn't that he'll learn the game and get better at it. The danger is that he'll go into the other room, come back with a bat, and hit you with it.
But there is a difference. Superman is flawless and boring, Spiderman and Batman are not. That is the point, Rey is Superman.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yes. Yes. I'm with you 100%. The villains sucked! I hope the next movies step it up. Even Darth Maul was cooler.(To be fair, the fact that Kylo Ren was PATHETIC probably makes her seem hyper competent
[...]
P.S. Holy shit was Kylo Ren worthless. Like goddamn what a trash villain. All the villains were trash in this movie. Phantasma had the presence but she didn't get to do shit, Young Hitler was pretty much just LOL and where the fuck did Snoke come from? CG Holograms the the sidelines don't invoke fear.
Edit: Also I'm glad I'm not the only one calling whatshisface the Hitler youth LOL
LookAtMeGo
Member
I think people who want the badass Kylo are going to get just that next episode. This film showed him become that. He will probably have a cold dead heart after what happened in TFA, and pissed about getting bested. I dont see him showing as much weakness next time around. I thought it was good to see this side of him now rather than waiting for prequels to see the human side of him.
But yeah.. Rey is awesome.
But yeah.. Rey is awesome.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Exactly this.
Her backstory is a mystery (because this is part one of a planned trilogy), so we have no idea of why she's capable of what she's capable of. But even if nothing further is said about her character's background, she still wouldn't qualify as a Mary Sue any more than Luke did.
andythinkpad
Member
And there is no reason to send this random girl to Luke and ask him return if she is not related to Luke. Sloppy writing.
BlastProcessing
Member
Could you share some links? I've looked around and found like one blog post and 4 forum mentions. Doesn't seem to be much of a fuss there.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Not to mention she clearly needs the force for several things. It's an incredibly easy to accept concept that most of everything she does is due to being very in tune with the force and not defaulting to disbelief like Luke. She's heard the legends and admires the concept, so unlike Luke who was like "that's impossible" she lets the force flow through her several times. And one of the early concepts was her doing some starkiller shit and chopping star destroyers with a saber. She's nowhere near OP, especially compared to the guy who can stop blaster shots midair and freeze people in place with a single gesture.
Future PhaZe
Member
Imagine if we'd have gotten Jaina
Not only that. But Snoke literally told Ren to bring Rey to him. I'm sure Ren knew like Han said that Snoke was only using him and would destroy him when he outlived his use.
So I think Ren was operating on two motivations. Bring Rey to Snoke as instructed but also in the back of his mind he'd "teach" her and taker her on as apprentice.
Ren clearly underestimated Rey. Someone who was able to calm her mind and accept the force to guide her.
"For my ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is"-Yoda.
Who would win in a fight, you or Mike Tyson after he was just shot in the gut by a high-powered weapon?
Also Mike Tyson in this instance draws his power from something that depends on emotional clarity and he's a big ball of emotional uncertainty and self-loathing.
Also this isn't actually Mike Tyson, just some random boxer who wants to be like Mike Tyson and has never faced a decent opponent.
Also Mike Tyson in this instance draws his power from something that depends on emotional clarity and he's a big ball of emotional uncertainty and self-loathing.
Also this isn't actually Mike Tyson, just some random boxer who wants to be like Mike Tyson and has never faced a decent opponent.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
What movie were you watching? Kylo Ren was shown as nothing but powerful and intimidating until he came in contact with Naruto. Hell, when they first met he easily chased her down and immobilized her.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yeah. The movie is full of plot holes like that. Everything happens too easily with no thought put into why they happen or if it makes any sense.
Fun movie and not as bad as the prequels but ugh, I knew JJ Abrams would fuck it up.
And then he threw temper tantrums like a dumb child, whined and pouted, screwed up countless times and was generally Anakin levels of insufferable.
And fought a whole other guy and had just murdered his father? Damn, dude I dunno. I think I could have a shot though.
Edit: Especially if I had the option to let the Force take the wheel.
I think a bunch of people are upset that Ren wasn't as badass as they hoped. Pissed that it was a girl who actually handed him his ass. As stupid as that sounds I believe it to be true.
I do agree that Ren is probably more inline with what some fans wanted the next time we see him.
This is a very well written argument.
Well, if he's able to move around like her normally does pre-blast shot then there's no way in hell anyone stands a chance. Also, this might be outside my knowledge, but does the dark side actually derive from emotional clarity?
Edit: I don't know what the boxing equivalent of suspending laser shots in midair, freezing a human being's movement, and mind magic is, but it's still way better than most.
Ogrekiller
Member
The fucking issue is that they decided to have the fight way too early, and they stuck too close to ANH.
Han is Obi-Wan in this movie. Han isn't a Jedi. So he dies without putting up a fight, especially since it was his son he was fighting. He's no Vader, he won't fight back against Ben.
They should have brought Luke in. They couldn't, for whatever reason.
Then the only choice is Finn, or Rey. Rey has the force. It had to be her. And since the good guys always win, so she did.
It was a pacing error. Luke should have been there. But no, they decided to make him Yoda instead.
Rey was a movie too early to be fighting. But they had to have the lightsaber fight even though there weren't enough Jedi to justify one.
Well she is the strongest light side force user in the movie. Plus she was the one who brought the map in. So that part I don't have an issue with.
Han is Obi-Wan in this movie. Han isn't a Jedi. So he dies without putting up a fight, especially since it was his son he was fighting. He's no Vader, he won't fight back against Ben.
They should have brought Luke in. They couldn't, for whatever reason.
Then the only choice is Finn, or Rey. Rey has the force. It had to be her. And since the good guys always win, so she did.
It was a pacing error. Luke should have been there. But no, they decided to make him Yoda instead.
Rey was a movie too early to be fighting. But they had to have the lightsaber fight even though there weren't enough Jedi to justify one.
Well she is the strongest light side force user in the movie. Plus she was the one who brought the map in. So that part I don't have an issue with.
I expect him to follow the opposite path of Darth Vader. In the first movie, Darth Vader is 100% an evil dude and it doesn't even cross your mind that he can be turned to the light. But by the end of the last movie, Luke is positive he can turn him, and you start believing it too.
Our first impression of Kylo Ren is a 180 of our first impression of Vader. He doesn't have it together. Hes conflicted. He openly talks about still feeling the light. I think we'll see a more confident and less conflicted Kylo as the trilogy moves on.
igordennis
Member
Full of plot holes? Really? Tell me more please.
Btw that's not a plot hole. "Omg they sent the next jedi to the (until now) last surviving jedi so she can learn from him. Plot hole!!1!"
Plot hole has really lost all meaning just like Mary Sue has if it's being used like that.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
After already accessing the force multiple times beforehand.
After accessing the force multiple times beforehand.
-Kylo Ren was
1.shot in the abdomen
2.clearly incredibly distressed after his actions
3.stabbed in the shoulder after a lightsaber duel with Finn
Did you not notice the part where Kylo had tried again to use force pull, he was so distressed that it wasn't working. He never was using the force to begin with at that moment, and this is all conveyed incredibly well during the scenes that it's a wonder how people could possibly be confused.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I don't buy the whole "he was shot" thing as an argument for why he sucked. Maybe I am not remembering right, or maybe it was just bad acting, but it didn't seem like the shot actually impacted him that much, I don't recall him clutching at his wound or his movement speed being slowed or whatever. That blaster would have insta-killed a mook but he just kept on fighting almost like it was nothing, which suggested that he had some sort of armour or Force protection or something, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.
This isn't really the thread for it though.
That's not what I said.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
I did say until he came in contact with Naruto. At that point they had to tear him down to build her up for whatever reason.
Did you forget about him launching Rey 30 feet into a tree and knocking her out right before that fight started? I think his force usage was still on point.
She really isn't.
She screwed up a bunch during the film, and her "big moment my god she's so overpowered!!" was her running away from Kylo, tripping over her feet and being forced to the edge of a cliff before finally ~letting the force in~ and beating him down (because he's injured and bleeding everywhere).
If she was Superman, she would not have screwed up during the film, would have saved Han (or spun the world backwards to reverse time?!) and would have not had to "let go" and let the force in to beat Kylo.
But I suspect you don't care and are set in your view, so, sure, she's Superman. Good on you for spotting that darn Mary Sue.
Kylo enables Rey. Not voluntarily, but this is what he does. Like showing her every trick because he's too confident in front of her. Like a magician who performs in front of another magician without knowing that. The other magician being more naturally gifted just learns trick after trick.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You're missing the point of the character....so many things are incredibly deliberate. >_> We're starting with both sides being built up and going through a journey, not just the heroes. That's what makes the film so successful. It's no coincidence that Kylo Ren was scarred multiple times culminating in a face scar.
Did you forget that he was even more distressed after being wounded by a lowly stormtrooper who's only used a lightsaber once?
Haha, love this.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I don't really understand these "then so was Luke" post.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Its not that hard.
30yearsofhurt
Member
Rey is a great character.
Her best scene is where she's eating dinner and puts on the xwing helmet.
She just looks like a nerdy kid.
Her best scene is where she's eating dinner and puts on the xwing helmet.
She just looks like a nerdy kid.
BlastProcessing
Member
I think the climax of the film underscores this.
Kylo Ren is reaching out for the thing he thinks is his birthright, Anakin's saber and it whips right by him and into Rey's hand. He actually dodges it because, in the moment he has waited for all his life, he wasn't ready. She took it from him. It's some Falkner shit really.
- Status