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[Trigonometrize.]

Luke in ANH is someone who wants to go out on adventures and be part of something bigger than he is, but can't.

Rey wants to stay on Jakku and wait for her parents, but is forced into the adventure, but still wants to go back.

One is conducive to the genre, the other is not. That's not to say it couldn't work, though. For a lot of people, Rey wanting to stay on Jakku works and is relatable. For me, it isn't.

Rey halfway through the film says "I'm never touching that lightsaber again." By the end she has used it to beat Kylo, took the reins of the MF abd traveled all the way to the last jedi. She's changed from the person that wanted to return to Jakku.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Ehhh I don't want a deconstruction of a stupid fanboy as the main villain of a Star Wars movie, and I can't imagine who would want that. I want a scary motherfucker like Darth Vader or a badass motherfucker like Tarkin (with a more badass title though, please... "Grand Moff", pfft), or a creepy motherfucker like the Emperor.

That doesn't mean having these same characters again, of course. But something closer to them, characters with an impressive presence, that are threatening and larger than life. Not a malformed Jon Snow who throws temper tantrums and a cartoony Hitler Youth poster boy. xD YMMV I guess, but I thought all the villains in TFA really sucked. Even Brienne was disappointing in how inept she was.

See, I think he was one of the best villains I have seen in a good while. He is weak and flawed and is as a result dangerous and unpredictable. He basically constantly vomits his emotional distress all over the place. It's unsettling and different. He isn't in control, he know it and he is willing to do anything to get his shit together.

His danger comes from his fractured sense of self. He is very similar to Jessica Jones' Kilgrave in that regard (another recent villain that I loved) they are both just perfect little shits.

When Vader blew up Alderaan, it was a monstrous act, but it was cool. Vader was always cool. Kylo Ren isn't cool. When he kills Han in his shitty way, it ain't cool at all.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Did you forget that he was even more distressed after being wounded by a lowly stormtrooper who's only used a lightsaber once?

And? Each hit he takes diminishes his ability to use the force? I am sorry, but that is not a forgone conclusion and is not supported by any of the other Star Wars films. That is just something you are using to try and explain away the poor writing.

If they wanted make Kylo Ren seem like some awkward teenager or whatever the hell people are trying to push, then they did an extremely poor job of it and is just another failing of the movie. You don't rush all of the character traits at the end of the movie. You don't give him the village scene, the Poe interrogation scene, the scene where he stalks Rey through the woods, talk about how he turned and destroyed Luke's Academy or give him Snokes praise of "EVEN FOR YOU, leader of the Knights of Ren". You don't watch that character and go "he seems like he is fronting, no skillz no confidence lulz".

 

[Boke1879]

I think people are calling her a Mary Sue because of her lack of personality especially next to Finn. John Boyega is very charming and likeable.

Oh come on! Rey was equally likable, sarcastic and charming.

 

[aliengmr]

Yeah I found that actually to be bizarre, why would he be punching himself? Maybe it's just really bad acting. I don't think they showed that gun wound well at all, and besides, if he really was that affected by it, he's an idiot for going into battle like that.

He needs the anger to stay focused. Like Darkside 101. It requires intense emotions to operate. Again, he is conflicted, that's make any force user weak.

Also, they kind of spent the entire movie showing us how powerful the bowcaster was.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

He's not an idiot.. Well, he kinda is. But the point is that he's petty and arrogant. Rey had humiliated him when she escaped, so he couldn't let her get away. That, and Snoke had commanded him to bring in Rey. What he did was completely logical for the character.

Maybe, but that doesn't make him a fun or interesting villain to me.

Conflicted villains are great. Inept and incompetent ones just suck.

 

[Ogrekiller]

I don't really understand these "then so was Luke" post.

When the movie is essentially ANH repackaged for 2015 the closest analogies will be scrutinized the most heavily.

They mashed up Luke, Leia and Han and spread out their qualities into Rey, Finn and Poe.

Problem is Poe is no Han. Neither is he Luke. He is less than even Leia, because there is no conceivable way he fits into the three man circle. Unless of course he is Rey's brother.

Finn is not Han either. He is too bumbling and doesn't possess the swashbuckling charm that Han has. They gave him an out via his backstory for running but then he can't use the force like Luke does. He gets the carbonite treatment way too early as well.

That leaves Rey. So she is Luke, Han, AND Leia, all in one character. All she lacks is a slave bikini scene. If they had that the backlash would be not on the Mary Sue part, I can assure you of that.

But well it's what the fans wanted after the PT. They wanted Star Wars, they GOT Star Wars.

 

[plasmawave]

This isn't totally directed at you. But it's made clear that Kylo is injured. The shot is bothering him and he is bleeding. He's emotionally unstable as shown during the film and he's honestly overconfident at this point. He's toying with Finn until Finn lands a minor shot on him and that's when Ren disposes of him.

He underestimates Rey herself. People not seeing any of this are ignoring facts and all evidence in the movie.

He underestimated Rei after she managed to force blocked / force reverse mind read / force push backed him?

 

[Squire]

Rey is a great character.
Her best scene is where she's eating dinner and puts on the xwing helmet.
She just looks like a nerdy kid.

She's a resistance fan girl, clearly. She knows all the legends. She's the inverse of Ren that way (among many other more obvious ways.)

She's the one that saw the original trilogy and walked away with the right lessons.

 

[Nibiru]

Rey really should have tried to force pull Kylo into the chasm at the end. He would have been shocked and started to clutch at the snow. She would then remember Finn, stop and run to him like she did in the movie. Of course she wouldn't actually know how to force pull specifically but she just did it with the light saber so instinctively she could have made a feeble attempt at it on Kylo.

First off this would have been a very exciting moment. Secondly it would have shown that even she has a darker side and isn't perfect and would have completely killed the Mary Sue angle. Thirdly, in the next film when Luke presumably trains her or struggles with whether he should or not, ONLY the audience would know about the moment she had with Kylo where she tried to kill him.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Internet discourse largely revolves around finding the shortest line to making someone else's argument illegitimate. It's maddening but it is what it is.

You would think the only way someone could agree that she was overpowered is if she literally blew up the planet by herself and killed every bad guy she encountered.

Internet discourse can also revolve around using hyperbole and meta commentary about internet discourse in lieu of actual arguments.

 

[Aselith]

What development. She starts as big unknown and ends as a big unknown. She has or had a family, she was or was not strong already, she was or was not a very good survivor.

We know nothing of her, but she starts to become number 1 within 90 minutes of a movie, why because she can and some destiny TBA.

Number 1 in what? The Resistance doesn't give really two craps that she got captured, they're more worried about getting at Starkiller. Only person she's number 1 to is Finn. Even Solo is kinda over her and only goes to rescue her cause they're there anyways.

I mean she's one of the main characters so she's like slot 2 for us even since Finn gets the majority of the screentime and development. Certainly that last bit pushes her up but it's not like the world in any way is shown to revolve around her.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

That shit is intimidating.

Omg if I was in that situation I would have shat my pants. That is scary as all hell.

 

[Frog-fu]

I think people are calling her a Mary Sue because of her lack of personality especially next to Finn. John Boyega is very charming and likeable.

Rey has plenty of personality. There is no way she'd be a great character if she didn't, then she'd be the worst kind of Mary Sue. I think Boyega is unreasonably charismatic and hilarious as Finn, and a great audience stand in, but his scenes are strongest when he's with Rey to me, and that's because Daisy Ridley brings a very positive, resilient and courageous optimism counterbalance to his cynicism. It just works perfectly.

 

[Boke1879]

Rey halfway through the film says "I'm never touching that lightsaber again." By the end she has used it to beat Kylo, took the reins of the MF abd traveled all the way to the last jedi. She's changed from the person that wanted to return to Jakku.

It's not even that she wants to. She HAS to. It's her destiny. She only accepts the saber after she sees Finn injured. You're right though at this point she knows what she has to do. whether she really wants to or not.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

So does Rey have to be whinny not to be a Mary Sue? Im not saying that Luke is a Gary Stu, I'm arguing that Rey is not a mary sue. She isnt flawless either which is why I'm saying if people are saying that she is one then Luke is as well. I dont think either of them are.

The being saved and not beating the bad guy are the important part of my quote.
Rey accomplished things without earning them through confides of these movies. Like many other characters in this universe have.

 

[LowParry]

I think people should be more pissed off at the lack of Captain Phasma. Rey is fine.

 

[Toxi]

I think the last battle between Ren and Ray could of been handled a little more carefully. She did run a lot only for the fact that was her first time using a Jedi weapon. They did prove earlier she was capable of taking care of herself with a staff. What I hope they do is let her use a double bladed weapon because you'd think it would be her weapon of choice. Anyway, the battle could of ended a little more closely to Ren giving up due to so much pain (shot, bleeding, some hella fast running to catch up to Finn and Ray in his condition) and exhaustion that causes him to lose instead of what looked like he was losing to Ray's force ability.

So the movie shows that Rey is capable with many talents. Fixing ships (scavenging), fighting (local trouble makers), and learning her force abilities quickly. I think what they missed, and they did this was Anakin in TPM with pod racing, that he was capable of racing due to his abilities with the force. Human's were not really capable of handing the pod races. Even Qui Gon Jinn comments about Ani's abilities. "You must have Jedi reflexes if you race pods." They could of portrayed something like that with Rey and her uses with the force with her daily life use perhaps.

Still I would like to know the term "there has been an awakening" really means. The Force has always been there.

Honestly, the lightsaber battle is the last thing I would change about the film's climax. I think it was the only part of said climax that was actually executed very well.

 

[Crossing Eden]

And? Each hit he takes diminishes his ability to use the force? I am sorry, but that is not a forgone conclusion and is not supported by any of the other Star Wars films. That is just something you are using to try and explain away the poor writing.

If they wanted make Kylo Ren seem like some awkward teenager or whatever the hell people are trying to push, then they did an extremely poor job of it and is just another failing of the movie. You don't rush all of the character traits at the end of the movie. You don't give him the village scene, the Poe interrogation scene, the scene where he stalks Rey through the woods, talk about how he turned and destroyed Luke's Academy or give him Snokes praise of "EVEN FOR YOU, leader of the Knights of Ren". You don't watch that character and go "he seems like he is fronting, no skillz no confidence lulz".

Dude the less you're able to concentrate the less you're able to use the force even if you're a darkside user. When has someone who's onscreen as wounded as Kylo Ren ever used the force? Hell when have we ever seen someone in a starwars film take that much punishment and still keep fighting. Also no one is trying to push this, this isn't headcanon or open to interpretation. It's no coincidence that his ability to use the force gets weaker as he gets more and more distressed overtime.

Words from JJ himself.

“Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain,” the director said. “And not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process.”

Gee I wonder how they would do that. Maybe by having him start to have doubts over the course of the film, maybe culminating in seeing his father face to face. Maybe have a reverse on the typical "It's too late scene" and have the character say "I know what I need to do, but I can't bring myself too, help me." as if he's about to turn good.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

It's not even that she wants to. She HAS to. It's her destiny. She only accepts the saber after she sees Finn injured. You're right though at this point she knows what she has to do. whether she really wants to or not.

Did any character say she "has" to do anything though? Maz maybe a little bit. But Han was totally ready to let her go back to Jakku and she totally could've instead of go to Luke. There's no indication that anyone was pressuring her to go to Luke. But she did anyway.

 

[Frog-fu]

I think people should be more pissed off at the lack of Captain Phasma. Rey is fine.

The criminal, borderline misleading under utilisation of Phasma has been discussed quite a lot but there is not much to say on it really. Pretty much everyone agrees she was interesting and should have had much more screen time.

 

[Trokil]

Number 1 in what? The Resistance doesn't give really two craps that she got captured, they're more worried about getting at Starkiller. Only person she's number 1 to is Finn. Even Solo is kinda over her and only goes to rescue her cause they're there anyways.

I mean she's one of the main characters so she's like slot 2 for us even since Finn gets the majority of the screentime and development.

Because they sent her to find Luke, a person the Resistance was looking for at least two decades. Usually for such a high priority target you chose your best not somebody just joined. But they send her of course and Leia is not joining them or any of the Resistance to explain how badly they need help.

 

[Boke1879]

He underestimated Rei after she managed to force blocked / force reverse mind read / force push backed him?

Yup. The simple fact he says "you need a teacher!". He recognizes her aptitude but clearly still things he's better. Just looked how shocked he is as she overpowers him?

Earlier in the film Snoke even makes comment on it. Something like "This girl overpowered you!?"

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Honestly, the lightsaber battle is the last thing I would change about the film's climax. I think it was the only part of said climax that was actually executed very well.

Including the deus ex earthquake chasm that shows up conveniently between the two fighters to make sure that they both survive?

 

[LookAtMeGo]

The being saved and not beating the bad guy are the important part of my quote.
Rey accomplished things without earning them through confides of these movies. Like many other characters in this universe have.

Do you think Rey is more powerful than Kylo? Is that why he captures her with ease? If Rey was to toe off with a healthy Kylo she would have lost. She only won because of circumstances, not because she was more powerful than him.

 

[Vice]

And? Each hit he takes diminishes his ability to use the force? I am sorry, but that is not a forgone conclusion and is not supported by any of the other Star Wars films. That is just something you are using to try and explain away the poor writing.

If they wanted make Kylo Ren seem like some awkward teenager or whatever the hell people are trying to push, then they did an extremely poor job of it and is just another failing of the movie. You don't rush all of the character traits at the end of the movie. You don't give him the village scene, the Poe interrogation scene, the scene where he stalks Rey through the woods, talk about how he turned and destroyed Luke's Academy or give him Snokes praise of "EVEN FOR YOU, leader of the Knights of Ren". You don't watch that character and go "he seems like he is fronting, no skillz no confidence lulz".

He throws tantrums and shows he is emotionally conflicted theoughout the film. He reacts to bad news by wrecking computers and walls and talks to a helmet when he needs reassurance. The movie show he's not as stable and in control as he thinks during the whole thing. Him rushing into a fight while injured is consistent with how he lashes out when anything bad or upsetting happens that involves him.

 

[KingSnake]

He underestimated Rei after she managed to force blocked / force reverse mind read / force push backed him?

Yes, every time. Because that's what he was. A cocky angry Vader wannabe.

Even during the fight, as soon as Rey started to run around in that fight. Once he had her on the edge he stopped to ask her to be her master to the dark side. That's trying to be Vader without having what it takes. That got him defeated.

 

[captainnapalm]

I don't know if discussions like this are a reflection of how shitty American art and cinema has generally become, or just how insane fans have become. Either way, some of you guys are really going out of your way to make me not even want to see this movie.

Must you inject your political and ideological horseshit into everything.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Rey halfway through the film says "I'm never touching that lightsaber again." By the end she has used it to beat Kylo, took the reins of the MF abd traveled all the way to the last jedi. She's changed from the person that wanted to return to Jakku.

Which is great, but up until then, she wanted to go back to Jakku. Her refusal comes well into the second act of the movie when she's already on the adventure. It's great growth, but it happens too late. At least for me.

 

[plasmawave]

Yup. The simple fact he says "you need a teacher!". He recognizes her aptitude but clearly still things he's better. Just looked how shocked he is as she overpowers him?

Earlier in the film Snoke even makes comment on it. Something like "This girl overpowered you!?"

He was shocked because he didn't know she was a force user.
And he force pushed her before the fight? Doesn't sounds like he under estimate her at all. Not to a degree it totally caught him of guard anyways.

 

[LowParry]

Including the deus ex earthquake chasm that shows up conveniently between the two fighters to make sure that they both survive?

Yeah that whole thing made me chuckles. I was like, "Really?" Kylo should of just ran away like any villain would. "I'll get you next time!"

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Must you inject your political and ideological horseshit into everything.

...Huh?

 

[-tetsuo-]

Dude the less you're able to concentrate the less you're able to use the force even if you're a darkside user. When has someone who's onscreen as wounded as Kylo Ren ever used the force? Hell when have we ever seen someone in a starwars film take that much punishment and still keep fighting. Also no one is trying to push this, this isn't headcanon or open to interpretation. It's no coincidence that his ability to use the force gets weaker as he gets more and more distressed overtime.

Words from JJ himself.



Gee I wonder how they would do that. Maybe by having him start to have doubts over the course of the film, maybe culminating in seeing his father face to face. Maybe have a reverse on the typical "It's too late scene" and have the character say "I know what I need to do, but I can't bring myself too, help me." as if he's about to turn good.

Luke was able to contact Leia after he got his hand chopped off and fell down.... whatever the hell it was that he fell down in Empire.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

He was shocked because he didn't know she was a force user.

Yes he did.

She showed him in the torture room.

He tells a Trooper to get her soon because she's going to be more dangerous the longer she's open to it.

 

[Boke1879]

Because they sent her to find Luke, a person the Resistance was looking for at least two decades. Usually for such a high priority target you chose your best not somebody just joined. But they send her of course and Leia is not joining them or any of the Resistance to explain how badly they need help.

Honestly It makes sense to send Rey. Force sensitive and all that. it can assume Leia sense that.

Also it's best to send them anyway as the resistance is probably being monitered and it wouldn't be wise to send resistance troops to find Luke anyway.

 

[Henkka]

Including the deus ex earthquake chasm that shows up conveniently between the two fighters to make sure that they both survive?

In the novel, it's pretty clear she wouldn't have killed him anyway.

The chasm is a bit too convenient, but I'm alright with it because it's a powerful visual image, showing the separation between the characters. It tells a tiny story without a word being spoken, and that's what good cinema is all about.

 

[hal9001]

 

[3N16MA]

Two neglible mistakes in the grand scheme of things does not make her not a Mary Sue, especially when the first is written to push the plot forward (putting them all on the Millenium Falcon and thus en route to Maz) and the second is immediately followed by her taking out like 4 Stormtroopers despite having no apparent experience with blasters.

Granted, I've already said I don't care about her bodying Stormtroopers. I don't care she is an ace pilot. I don't care she's an amazing mechanic.

What bothers me is that she is unreasonably skilled at the Force and lightsabers. Those skills need to be earned. The movies have always been very clear on that. Rey didn't earn either.

Except for the fact he's not because he's naive, judgmental, sanctimonious and constantly requires saving from those around him.

Rey doesn't get off Jakku without Finn.
Rey opens the doors letting the Rathtars out. It's a clear mistake.
Han saves her ass (and everyone) by using hyperdrive within a freighter.
She runs away from accepting Anakin/Luke lightsaber because she is scared.
She is the only one captured on Takodana.
She once again receives help escaping Starkiller Base.

She is not perfect.

 

[igordennis]

He was shocked because he didn't know she was a force user.
And he force pushed her before the fight? Doesn't sounds like he under estimate her at all.

Wut. Of course he knew she was a force user. She resists his mind read so much that he explicitly says she is strong with the force to Snoke.

 

[aliengmr]

Because they sent her to find Luke, a person the Resistance was looking for at least two decades. Usually for such a high priority target you chose your best not somebody just joined. But they send her of course and Leia is not joining them or any of the Resistance to explain how badly they need help.

They are literally all that is left of the Republic forces.

 

[Spinluck]

Kylo hasn't even proven himself as a skilled Jedi... He kills innocent people who cannot defend themselves, kills his unarmed elderly father, and tortures people for like half his screentime.

Why is it so ridiculous that Finn and Rey can beat him while he's injured, and after he gets whooped they call him back to complete his training? Lol. He shows some impressive force abilities, but he didn't seem that powerful.

Anakin in RoTS would probably body him.

 

[Foggy]

It's so maddening you couldn't resist the urge to do it in the same post.

It wasn't though. I just think there's a misunderstanding, not that the argument is somehow flawed at its core.

Internet discourse can also revolve around using hyperbole and meta commentary about internet discourse in lieu of actual arguments.

If that was my only post on the topic sure, but I do have an actual argument in the previous pages.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Do you think Rey is more powerful than Kylo? Is that why he captures her with ease? If Rey was to toe off with a healthy Kylo she would have lost. She only won because of circumstances, not because she was more powerful than him.

I think the film is making that very clear. She is captured with ease because she doesn't have her force power yet.

 

[Mandius]

Rey had a rough two days.

 

[Veelk]

I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.

I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:



and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.

Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force.

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

This is an interesting perspective I haven't considered. It really makes Rey his perfect counterpart as she similarly was shown to be enchanged with tales of the Luke and the rebellion, and at times even gets by using second hand knowledge of those stories, such as the Jedi mind trick on that storm trooper even though she has personally never seen it done before. If Ren takes al the wrong lessons and holds onto a fantasy he shouldn't, in contrast, Rey character arc of becoming one with the force is achieved by resolving your own personal issues by moving forward with your life past the childhood fantasies that your attached to (in this case, waiting for a family that will never return). Growing up, in other words, a coming of age story.

That's a good angle to get at it from.

 

[Aselith]

Because they sent her to find Luke, a person the Resistance was looking for at least two decades. Usually for such a high priority target you chose your best not somebody just joined. But they send her of course and Leia is not joining them or any of the Resistance to explain how badly they need help.

Chewbacca went too in case she needed to convince him she came from the Resistance and she brought him his lightsaber. It's not like they were expecting strong resistance, they were just going to get him the information and get Rey trained.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Kylo hasn't even proven himself as a skilled Jedi... He kills innocent people who cannot defend themselves, kills his unarmed elderly father, and tortures people for like half his screentime.

Why is it so ridiculous that Finn and Rey can beat him while he's injured, and after he gets whooped they call him back to complete his training? Lol. He shows some impressive force abilities, but he didn't seem that powerful.

Anakin in RoTS would probably body him.

He shows more mastery of the force than Vader does in A New Hope.

 

[ivysaur12]

I love the OP so much.

Rey was great. Her bickering with Finn was great. Her connection with Solo was great. I'm all in with her as our main character.

 

[captainnapalm]

...Huh?

Don't mind me, I'm just utterly blown away by some of the posts in here.

 

[Gorillaz]

The movie in general was a very "set x up for y so in movie z this can happen" in such a way that I think it hindered some things in terms of the movie standing by itself. In terms of the new guys either they were rushed personality traits/arcs or not given much at all and just were basically a handed an IOU for next film. Rey partly falls in the first group. I wouldn't through in Mary Sue as much as I say her character was thin. I partly blame this on how they wanted JJ to do the heavy lifting of setting up the pins for the trilogy.

This wasn't Marvel level of "were making this movie just as a pitstop for the finale" type of building but at the same time it didn't feel like it stood strong on it's own. Once the trilogy is finished it will probably look better as a full picture, but as of now it feels like it needed a bit more details.

The term Mary Sue (or Gary) can be applied to some females in media, so while I don't think this applies to her completely I also don't get the notion that people assume that calling someone Mary Sue comes off as a sexist slur in a sense. I've seen that belief alot online lately some reason.