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[Foggy]

I don't really understand these "then so was Luke" post.

Internet discourse largely revolves around finding the shortest line to making someone else's argument illegitimate. It's maddening but it is what it is.

You would think the only way someone could agree that she was overpowered is if she literally blew up the planet by herself and killed every bad guy she encountered.

 

[aliengmr]

And then he threw temper tantrums like a dumb child, whined and pouted, screwed up countless times and was generally Anakin levels of insufferable.

And this guy can use the force and has an army at it side. Like the last guy you want in charge.

Vader/Maul 2.0 would have been awful. I want to feel something instead of watching a cardboard cutout dance around with fancy lightsaber. I hate Kylo Ren. Vader and Maul looked cool, made made very little impression on me.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Rey is good and everything she does. She has no character flaws or shortcomings. She's a Mary Sue. I don't know why people can't accept that.

Probably because it is objectively not an accurate statement..

 

[Morrigan Stark]

You're missing the point of the character....so many things are incredibly deliberate. >_>

Huh? What point am I missing? Even if they deliberately made him a whiny pathetic self-loathing inept idiot, that doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's a good idea or good writing.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

I think most peoples concerns with her is that she advanced far too quickly in such a short period of time. Learning how to do the Jedi Mind Trick(which was one of my actual most favourite moments of the film..."And you'll drop your gun" "And I'll drop my gun"). Being able to use the force to get an object to come to her(again, awesome moment, you think it's gonna go to Kylo but nop, right past his face!).

They seem to miss the fact that he got SHOT IN THE FRIGGIN GUT BY A L4Z0R! Also, he just killed his father, despite what he might have said, I think that probably had some sort of effect on his mental health.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Ehhh I don't want a deconstruction of a stupid fanboy as the main villain of a Star Wars movie, and I can't imagine who would want that. I want a scary motherfucker like Darth Vader or a badass motherfucker like Tarkin (with a more badass title though, please... "Grand Moff", pfft), or a creepy motherfucker like the Emperor.

That doesn't mean having these same characters again, of course. But something closer to them, characters with an impressive presence, that are threatening and larger than life. Not a malformed Jon Snow who throws temper tantrums and a cartoony Hitler Youth poster boy. xD YMMV I guess, but I thought all the villains in TFA really sucked. Even Brienne was disappointing in how inept she was.

Agreed all around with you here. I agree with the people in here saying that the problem might actually be the villains in the film. Rey, Poe and Finn are all fine characters, but all three could be seen as having some "power level" issues when compared to the absolute ineptitude and worthlessness of the villains in the movie.

I took my parents to see the movie last night and I was cracking up afterwards when my mom remarked that Snoke was like a crappy looking Harry Potter villain. He's so awful.

 

[Frog-fu]

Its not that hard.

They are bad comparisons. The main spoiler thread has been over this to death.

Luke isn't a Gary Stu. He isn't good at everything. He isn't entirely likable. He has character flaws. He grows into becoming great.

 

[Trokil]

I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.

I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:

and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.

Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force.

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

What and incredible amount of hogwash. Rey is a bad character neither because she is female, nor because some strange fanboy theory. Just because this chosen and savant trope in movies is terrible and most characters in this group, both female and male get a lot of criticism.

Even if you want to make this weak connection to Luke. Luke had a backstory in the first movie. His father was a Jedi, he had talent and he was getting training by a Master. Rey has nothing of that and so wild theories are not helping. They even gave Superman a backstory, but all we have for Rey are some theories. So this will be all told in the next two movies. But that is just terrible and stupid. If you make a sequel, you usually start to get more information, like we did with Luke, not the information we are missing from the first movie.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Internet discourse largely revolves around finding the shortest line to making someone else's argument illegitimate. It's maddening but it is what it is.

You would think the only way someone could agree that she was overpowered is if she literally blew up the planet by herself and killed every bad guy she encountered.

no u

 

[Morrigan Stark]

They seem to miss the fact that he got SHOT IN THE FRIGGIN GUT BY A L4Z0R!

Can you blame us, when the character/actor himself seemed to have miss that fact...

 

[LookAtMeGo]

They are bad comparisons. The main spoiler thread has been over this to death.

Luke isn't

Luke is flawless until Vader bests him in the second film.

 

[Vice]

I don't buy the whole "he was shot" thing as an argument for why he sucked. Maybe I am not remembering right, or maybe it was just bad acting, but it didn't seem like the shot actually impacted him that much, I don't recall him clutching at his wound or his movement speed being slowed or whatever. That blaster would have insta-killed a mook but he just kept on fighting almost like it was nothing, which suggested that he had some sort of armour or Force protection or something, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.

The camera pnned to show that he was losing a lot of blood. He kept hitting his wound throughout the fight.

 

[Astral Dog]

Kylo is whats left of the Sith legacy, thats whats a bit weird, and Snoke, but nobody knows who Snoke is.

 

[Boke1879]

Ehhh I don't want a deconstruction of a stupid fanboy as the main villain of a Star Wars movie, and I can't imagine who would want that. I want a scary motherfucker like Darth Vader or a badass motherfucker like Tarkin (with a more badass title though, please... "Grand Moff", pfft), or a creepy motherfucker like the Emperor.

That doesn't mean having these same characters again, of course. But something closer to them, characters with an impressive presence, that are threatening and larger than life. Not a malformed Jon Snow who throws temper tantrums and a cartoony Hitler Youth poster boy. xD YMMV I guess, but I thought all the villains in TFA really sucked. Even Brienne was disappointing in how inept she was.

You say that. But then you'd complain about having a Vader clone. I honestly don't mind a villain that will get character development.

 

[Crocodile]

You can make all the excuses for Kylo Ren you want, dude was weak-sauce from the outset. Real Villains (tm) don't throw tantrums at the smallest setback. Maybe he grows into something more engaging but as is its not particularly fun to watch.

You're missing the point of the character....so many things are incredibly deliberate. >_>

Maybe she gets the point but she still doesn't like it and/or it still wasn't what she wanted. I don't think her viewpoint is that hard to understand.

"That villain was pathetic!"
"He was supposed to be pathetic"
..........

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Kylo Ren is not a weak villain. In the first five minutes of appearing he displays a skill that no Sith or Jedi in previous films displayed. He turned on Luke Skywalker and apparently killed the entire new Jedi academy, and he wasn't able to be stopped. (Speculation - I could be proven wrong)

He is quite powerful but he was beaten in a moment of clear weakness. Anyone shocked and appalled that Rey beat him is ignoring facts clearly presented in the film. He was seriously injured and his connection to the dark side of the force was compromised. A dark side user cannot be conflicted in their emotion, they have to be fully committed to their hatred, their pain, their anger. He was clearly conflicted over killing his father just moments prior - he couldn't even do it himself. He also had to strike his own wound in order to stay angry and determined to win. It's obvious why he lost and why Rey won.

He's a conflicted villain, and that doesn't work for villains in Star Wars.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

You say that. But then you'd complain about having a Vader clone. I honestly don't mind a villain that will get character development.

I specifically said I didn't want a clone. And you can have character development on a villain that isn't completely incompetent...

 

[Sheentak]

I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.

I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:



and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.

Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force.

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

You make some good points but the interest in the character is gone he was marketed as this dark dude with a cool lightsaber now that he has been characterized as a whiney school shooter who completely got bitched out he just is not cool or a threat anymore.
Sure he will get some training but so is Rey, he lost to her twice already why should we care about him? He shouldve been Darth Mauled and we just get a new villain in the next movie.

Luke did beat Vader in new hope on the trench run of the Death Star but it was not a clean loss felt more lucky so when Empire came about people were hyped to see how Vader will get his revenge. Kylo Ren has no hype now I dont even care about him, his a Joke, like you put it a School shooter at best.
Unless Rey fights Snoke next who cares, Ren is already the underdog now.

Going back to Rey as a Mary sue compared to lets say Finn she isnt as fun of a character so she is getting unfair criticism towards her. Finn is Solo and Rey is Luke and everybody knows Solo> Luke.

 

[Foggy]

no u

Damn me!

 

[Boke1879]

Kylo is whats left of the Sith legacy, thats whats a bit weird, and Snoke, but nobody knows who Snoke is.

On the contrary. Everyone does seem to know who Snoke is. He's definitely not secret. I just don't think Snoke is his real name. There is definitely more to him.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Can you blame us, when the character/actor himself seemed to have miss that fact...

What do you mean? He was powerful enough to sort of walk it off, but not powerful enough for it not to effect him at all. Plus he seemed to punch himself there a couple times during the battle iirc.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Huh? What point am I missing? Even if they deliberately made him a whiny pathetic self-loathing inept idiot, that doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's a good idea or good writing.

Well it wasn't bad writing. They pretty much succeeded on all fronts in conveying the idea behind the character and made some incredible choices with cinematography and how to introduce him properly while then tearing him down and humanizing him over the course of the film culminating with him wounded on the ground. I found it quite ingenious actually because it would've been so easy to have a one-dimensional generic sith lord who just looks cool and has very little depth like the prequel films.

 

[Toxi]

Internet discourse largely revolves around finding the shortest line to making someone else's argument illegitimate. It's maddening but it is what it is.

You would think the only way someone could agree that she was overpowered is if she literally blew up the planet by herself and killed every bad guy she encountered.

It's so maddening you couldn't resist the urge to do it in the same post.

Luke is flawless until Vader bests him in the second film.

Well actually he's flawless until he fails the cave test.

 

[Aselith]

Kylo Ren is not a weak villain. In the first five minutes of appearing he displays a skill that no Sith or Jedi in previous films displayed. He turned on Luke Skywalker and apparently killed the entire new Jedi academy, and he wasn't able to be stopped.

He is quite powerful but he was beaten in a moment of clear weakness. Anyone shocked and appalled that Rey beat him is ignoring facts clearly presented in the film. He was seriously injured and his connection to the dark side of the force was compromised. A dark side user cannot be conflicted in their emotion, they have to be fully committed to their hatred, their pain, their anger. He was clearly conflicted over killing his father just moments prior - he couldn't even do it himself. He also had to strike his own wound in order to stay angry and determined to win. It's obvious why he lost and why Rey won.

He's a conflicted villain, and that doesn't work for villains in Star Wars.

I'm going to guess Luke was elsewhere when this happened because I guarantee post-ROTJ Luke would have wrecked him easily.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Kylo enables Rey. Not voluntarily, but this is what he does. Like showing her every trick because he's too confident in front of her. Like a magician who performs in front of another magician without knowing that. The other magician being more naturally gifted just learns trick after trick.

This is an excellent point, and one I think is underrated in its importance to Rey's development. Rey is in direct conflict with an active force user at the time when she is becoming aware of her own abilities and begins testing herself - and is tested in turn. Her entire epiphany about her abilities is prompted by Kylo, and she's following his lead from then on.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I don't buy the whole "he was shot" thing as an argument for why he sucked. Maybe I am not remembering right, or maybe it was just bad acting, but it didn't seem like the shot actually impacted him that much, I don't recall him clutching at his wound or his movement speed being slowed or whatever.

Nah, he's pretty sweaty, he stumbles around a fair bit - he keeps pausing in the middle of his fight with Finn to keep PUNCHING the wound.

The shot impacted him, definitely. Abrams took time to have the camera take note of the blood collecting by his feet as he tries to intimidate Finn (who isn't having it, even if he's scared as shit himself).

 

[KingSnake]

I think most peoples concerns with her is that she advanced far too quickly in such a short period of time. Learning how to do the Jedi Mind Trick(which was one of my actual most favourite moments of the film..."And you'll drop your gun" "And I'll drop my gun"). Being able to use the force to get an object to come to her(again, awesome moment, you think it's gonna go to Kylo but nop, right past his face!).

They seem to miss the fact that he got SHOT IN THE FRIGGIN GUT BY A L4Z0R! Also, he just killed his father, despite what he might have said, I think that probably had some sort of effect on his mental health.

Not to even mention that he practically doesn't have what he needs to even properly use the dark side of the force. He lost his anger when he killed his father, there's no hatred against Rey, he's just driven by the "wrong" reasons in that battle.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I'm going to guess Luke was elsewhere when this happened because I guarantee post-ROTJ Luke would have wrecked him easily.

That's also very possible. But clearly at the top of his class if he was able to best any of Luke's other pupils.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Luke is flawless until Vader bests him in the second film.

In what way?
He is whiny and is constantly being saved. And when he does get beat by Vader it's after tons of training that he wasn't perfect in.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What do you mean? He was powerful enough to sort of walk it off, but not powerful enough for it not to effect him at all. Plus he seemed to punch himself there a couple times during the battle iirc.

Yeah I found that actually to be bizarre, why would he be punching himself? Maybe it's just really bad acting. I don't think they showed that gun wound well at all, and besides, if he really was that affected by it, he's an idiot for going into battle like that.

 

[plasmawave]

After already accessing the force multiple times beforehand.


After accessing the force multiple times beforehand.


-Kylo Ren was
1.shot in the abdomen
2.clearly incredibly distressed after his actions
3.stabbed in the shoulder after a lightsaber duel with Finn

Did you not notice the part where Kylo had tried again to use force pull, he was so distressed that it wasn't working. He never was using the force to begin with at that moment, and this is all conveyed incredibly well during the scenes that it's a wonder how people could possibly be confused.

After accessing the force multiple times beforehand.

Not to a degree that it mattered.

He never was using the force to begin with at that moment

Except the part he force pushed Rei?

 

[Trigonometrize.]

I don't buy the whole "he was shot" thing as an argument for why he sucked. Maybe I am not remembering right, or maybe it was just bad acting, but it didn't seem like the shot actually impacted him that much, I don't recall him clutching at his wound or his movement speed being slowed or whatever. That blaster would have insta-killed a mook but he just kept on fighting almost like it was nothing, which suggested that he had some sort of armour or Force protection or something, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.


This isn't really the thread for it though.


That's not what I said.

The movie goes out of its way to show that the injury impacted the fight. All the way back at the first fight with Han he sees Chewbacca's crossbow impact and tells him he's impressed. Then in the next fight there's the joke where Han tries it out and says he likes this thing, clearly because its powerful as fuck. Then Kylo is shot. Then twice in the fight Kylo pounds his side where he was shot, the first time the camera showing blood coming off it into the snow. He also at one point early on turns around away from Finn I think it was and grimaces in pain prior to any injury from the lightsaber fight.

I'm sorry, but it's made abundantly clear.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Yeah I found that actually to be bizarre, why would he be punching himself? Maybe it's just really bad acting. I don't think they showed that gun wound well at all, and besides, if he really was that affected by it, he's an idiot for going into battle like that.

We saw multiple times how powerful Chewie's blaster was. He was visibly bleeding and in pain. I think they showed plenty well how physically compromised Kylo was before the battle.

 

[majik13]

basically the Force is gonna Force.

 

[Supast4r]

IMHO there is literally no way that she is a Mary Sue:

1: They put extreme emphasis on Rey having a "dark and mysterious past."

2: Skywalker's lightsaber called to her and gave a vision with the island that Luke is hiding on.

3: The light called to her

4: When she meets Luke they don't say anything hinting as if Luke is her father.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I don't buy the whole "he was shot" thing as an argument for why he sucked. Maybe I am not remembering right, or maybe it was just bad acting, but it didn't seem like the shot actually impacted him that much, I don't recall him clutching at his wound or his movement speed being slowed or whatever. That blaster would have insta-killed a mook but he just kept on fighting almost like it was nothing, which suggested that he had some sort of armour or Force protection or something, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.

The confrontation between Fin & Rey vs Kylo featured a shot focusing only on his blood dripping onto the snow, before they actually did anything.

I don't know if I buy the excuse either but it was there.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I think the climax of the film underscores this.

Kylo Ren is reaching out for the thing he thinks is his birthright, Anakin's saber and it whips right by him and into Rey's hand. He actually dodges it because, in the moment he has waited for all his life, he wasn't ready. She took it from him. It's some Falkner shit really.

Hah, yep. He's actually frightened of it as it approaches him.

Just five minutes previous he had claimed it as his own.

 

[Frog-fu]

Probably because it is objectively not an accurate statement the film..

Two neglible mistakes in the grand scheme of things does not make her not a Mary Sue, especially when the first is written to push the plot forward (putting them all on the Millenium Falcon and thus en route to Maz) and the second is immediately followed by her taking out like 4 Stormtroopers despite having no apparent experience with blasters.

Granted, I've already said I don't care about her bodying Stormtroopers. I don't care she is an ace pilot. I don't care she's an amazing mechanic.

What bothers me is that she is unreasonably skilled at the Force and lightsabers. Those skills need to be earned. The movies have always been very clear on that. Rey didn't earn either.

Luke is flawless until Vader bests him in the second film.

Except for the fact he's not because he's naive, judgmental, sanctimonious and constantly requires saving from those around him.

 

[Toxi]

Yeah I found that actually to be bizarre, why would he be punching himself? Maybe it's just really bad acting. I don't think they showed that gun wound well at all, and besides, if he really was that affected by it, he's an idiot for going into battle like that.

Variety of reasons. Could be to motivate himself with the pain. Could be to keep himself conscious. Could be a futile gesture to try and deal with the pain. I've even seen the idea he was doing it to keep his belt in place so he wouldn't bleed out.

Whatever is the case, that wound was clearly intended to be serious in how it was presented.

 

[LowParry]

I think the last battle between Ren and Ray could of been handled a little more carefully. She did run a lot only for the fact that was her first time using a Jedi weapon. They did prove earlier she was capable of taking care of herself with a staff. What I hope they do is let her use a double bladed weapon because you'd think it would be her weapon of choice. Anyway, the battle could of ended a little more closely to Ren giving up due to so much pain (shot, bleeding, some hella fast running to catch up to Finn and Ray in his condition) and exhaustion that causes him to lose instead of what looked like he was losing to Ray's force ability.

So the movie shows that Rey is capable with many talents. Fixing ships (scavenging), fighting (local trouble makers), and learning her force abilities quickly. I think what they missed, and they did this was Anakin in TPM with pod racing, that he was capable of racing due to his abilities with the force. Human's were not really capable of handing the pod races. Even Qui Gon Jinn comments about Ani's abilities. "You must have Jedi reflexes if you race pods." They could of portrayed something like that with Rey and her uses with the force with her daily life use perhaps.

Still I would like to know the term "there has been an awakening" really means. The Force has always been there.



Though I must admit, this "Mary Sue" term is new to me.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Luke in ANH is someone who wants to go out on adventures and be part of something bigger than he is, but can't.

Rey wants to stay on Jakku and wait for her parents, but is forced into the adventure, but still wants to go back.

One is conducive to the genre, the other is not. That's not to say it couldn't work, though. For a lot of people, Rey wanting to stay on Jakku works and is relatable. For me, it isn't.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

In what way?
He is whiny and is constantly being saved. And when he does get beat by Vader it's after tons of training that he wasn't perfect in.

So does Rey have to be whinny not to be a Mary Sue? Im not saying that Luke is a Gary Stu, I'm arguing that Rey is not a mary sue. She isnt flawless either which is why I'm saying if people are saying that she is one then Luke is as well. I dont think either of them are.

 

[Trokil]

This is an excellent point, and one I think is underrated in its importance to Rey's development. Rey is in direct conflict with an active force user at the time when she is becoming aware of her own abilities and begins testing herself - and is tested in turn. Her entire epiphany about her abilities is prompted by Kylo, and she's following his lead from then on.

What development. She starts as big unknown and ends as a big unknown. She has or had a family, she was or was not strong already, she was or was not a very good survivor.

We know nothing of her, but she starts to become number 1 within 90 minutes of a movie, why because she can and some destiny TBA.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Not to even mention that he practically doesn't have what he needs to even properly use the dark side of the force. He lost his anger when he killed his father, there's no hatred against Rey, he's just driven by the "wrong" reasons in that battle.

Well that's sort of true. lust of power is also a motivator, it's what made Anakin go tot he darkside, the lust of power to cheat death. But yeah anger is a big part of it, not really sure why he was angry at his father though.

Yeah I found that actually to be bizarre, why would he be punching himself? Maybe it's just really bad acting. I don't think they showed that gun wound well at all, and besides, if he really was that affected by it, he's an idiot for going into battle like that.

I think it was him just trying to release adrenaline or something. I've tried hitting a wound before it and it kinda helped. Then it begun stinging more and I regretted my choices.

 

[Henkka]

Yeah I found that actually to be bizarre, why would he be punching himself? Maybe it's just really bad acting. I don't think they showed that gun wound well at all, and besides, if he really was that affected by it, he's an idiot for going into battle like that.

I interpreted that punching thing to be him kind of psyching himself... You know, using the pain to get the adrenaline pumping. I though it was awesome. I'm not sure what more they could've done to show the wound. Chewie's gun is shown to be very powerful at multiple points in the movie. You see him reacting to being hit. You see him punching the wound and a separate shot of blood pooling in the snow. They literally beat you over the head with it.

He's not an idiot.. Well, he kinda is. But the point is that he's petty and arrogant. Rey had humiliated him when she escaped, so he couldn't let her get away. That, and Snoke had commanded him to bring in Rey. What he did was completely logical for the character.

 

[Leeness]

Also, as a side note, I loved Kylo as a villain. I love my villains conflicted haha. Vader, for me, was at his absolute best when he was considering saving Luke from the emperor or not and then going for it.

I can't wait to see where they're going to take Kylo, if they want to give him redemption (almost certainly in death), or if they want him to kill Snoke and become the supreme evil. Either way, I'm in.

 

[Subtle]

I think people are calling her a Mary Sue because of her lack of personality especially next to Finn. John Boyega is very charming and likeable.

 

[Boke1879]

The confrontation between Fin & Rey vs Kylo featured a shot focusing only on his blood dripping onto the snow, before they actually did anything.

I don't know if I buy the excuse either but it was there.

This isn't totally directed at you. But it's made clear that Kylo is injured. The shot is bothering him and he is bleeding. He's emotionally unstable as shown during the film and he's honestly overconfident at this point. He's toying with Finn until Finn lands a minor shot on him and that's when Ren disposes of him.

He underestimates Rey herself. People not seeing any of this are ignoring facts and all evidence in the movie.

 

[Maximus.]

The spoiler thread was the first time I heard of this phrase. Jesus this is such a silly discussion.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Not to a degree that it mattered.


Except the part he force pushed Rei?

Yes it does. She was able to predict the path of an extremely unpredictable monster to cut it off, have force visions, pilot the millennium falcon using the force. This is something that comes naturally since she's incredibly force sensitive, hence the reason Kylo says "There's been an awakening" directly afterwards. Notice how he doesn't use the force at all during their fight after that one force push which seemed to be all he had left.

I specifically said I didn't want a clone. And you can have character development on a villain that isn't completely incompetent...

He's not incompetent at all though. He just gets torn down over the course of the film. I mean look what he did to Poe and the resistance forces at the beginning of the film, absolutely wrecked them, then proceeded to wreck multiple people including Rey and Finn. There's no way you were thinking he was incompetent when he froze a blaster shot in midair, kept it there for the hell of it just by thinking about it, and finally let it go.

or was able to wreck the mind of an incredibly charismatic dude

or froze Rey in place and proceeded to knock her out afterwards.

That shit is intimidating.