Support NeoGAF

[Crayon]

There's people who will pay more. The PS4 pro kept the $400 price going when the amateur went down to 300. The xbox midgen pushed it up to $500 and it was no problem. I can believe its coming and it would be $599.

 

[rofif]

Native 4k at 60fps with high end ray traced reflections I'd hope.

If stuff like this matters to you, just get a pc it’s a perfect machine for those who lost the sight of what’s important in gaming !

 

[DJ12]

Nah man, nothing released is anywhere near pushing these systems. So yeah, nothing released to warrant an upgrade.

That's not what you said.

But we already have games that are making sacrifices for 4k or 60fps so of course they are needed.

 

[Classicrockfan]

Nah man, nothing released is anywhere near pushing these systems. So yeah, nothing released to warrant an upgrade.

 

[Moses85]

Why would TCL know about this?

Because the Band brought us waterfalls.

They are 100% legit.

OOOPS, you speak about TCL, not TLC

 

[TheRedRiders]

Not sure on the actual feasibility of the Pro consoles based on the shortage, although I could see a 4 or 5nm chip taking pressure of PS5’s 7nm production.

The scalability of games is also very important, and I hope developers target the base hardware first (PS5 and Series X), then for the Pro models they can crank the notches on things like resolution, FPS and RT.

Cerny did great job with the PS4 Pro’s feature set, and ensuring PS4 titles scaled well. This won’t change much with the Pro model.

As for hardware features this is where it gets interesting, I think Microsoft will do their best to ensure they have the bigger number, and Sony will go sown their own route as they have done before. If the rumours are to be believed, Sony are working on upsampling technology for the PS5 Pro (Similar to PS4 Pro), which would be great on saving GPU resources, and it will allow developers to focus on implementing other features like RT Global Illumination or achieving more stable frame rates.

The rumours also mention the Pro is targeting 2.5x in RT performance over the base PS5 and this is actually consistent with the rumours about the RT performance increase from RDNA 2 to 3. Cerny seem’s to be a big believer in RT based on his comments about the “third era of graphics” being ray tracing.

We’re moving into the post-pixel resolution era and if Sony’s tech can rival something like DLSS 2.0 it would be a huge gain.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

That's not what you said.

But we already have games that are making sacrifices for 4k or 60fps so of course they are needed.

On every consumer gaming device.

 

[PeteBull]

There's people who will pay more. The PS4 pro kept the $400 price going when the amateur went down to 300. The xbox midgen pushed it up to $500 and it was no problem. I can believe its coming and it would be $599.

600$ especially if u take current gpu prices and inflation into account is the minimum ps5pro gonna cost, i wouldnt even be surprised at 800$ if specs ofc match the price(at least 2x gpu power, using at least ryzen 5k series cpu and at least 2tb ssd).
Then u would have 300$ increased pricetag(comparing vs disc version coz pro should/will have disc drive too, u dont wanna cut off features from ur premium/professional model, it would be suicide) but u would get 2x ssd space, 2x gpu power and much more cpu headroom which means realistically what players could expect is to play at fidelity mode but with performance frametimes and who knows maybe we even get more/better raytracing on top.
If we get all of this even 800$ doesnt seem like bad deal and there will be plenty of enthusiasts looking for purchase

 

[Badlucktroll]

Would 8k “checkerboard” rendering be possible on new consoles in a few years?

 

[winjer]

People using RedGaming Tech as a source of information...

 

[Hunnybun]

Would 8k “checkerboard” rendering be possible on new consoles in a few years?

Well it's only a bit more demanding than native 6k so no reason why not.

Personally I really hope 8k doesn't take off for a while, though. It's completely unnecessary for anything other than VR.

 

[Putonahappyface]

If stuff like this matters to you, just get a pc it’s a perfect machine for those who lost the sight of what’s important in gaming !

I've had gaming PC's over the years. I prefer the convenience of a console. Sony should make a filthy expensive premium console and a bargain bucket console. There certainly is a market for a premium ps5, hopefully they'll go all out on the pro!

 

[Haggard]

Nah man, nothing released is anywhere near pushing these systems. So yeah, nothing released to warrant an upgrade.

Checkerboarded 1440p based cross gen games struggling to hit 60 fps

"not pushing the systems"......

 

[TheRedRiders]

Checkerboarded 1440p based cross gen games struggling to hit 60 fps

"not pushing the systems"......

Your referring to HFW? That was an exception not the trend. Many cross-gen games have been hitting 60 FPS on dynamic 1440-2160P native resolution.

That doesn’t take into account that the next-gen engines will be more optimised and better suited to the next-gen hardware.

 

[Haggard]

Your referring to HFW? That was an exception not the trend. Many cross-gen games have been hitting 60 FPS on dynamic 1440-2160P native resolution.

That doesn’t take into account that the next-gen engines will be more optimised and better suited to the next-gen hardware.

riiight because that`s what we´ve experienced in the last 3 decades, games becoming LESS taxing over time

The base consoles are already hard-hitting their (gpu)limits, that`s a simple fact.

 

[TheRedRiders]

riiight because that`s what we´ve experienced in the last 3 decades, games becoming LESS taxing over time

The base consoles are already hard-hitting their (gpu)limits, that`s a simple fact.

Except that they’re not.

We’ve not even had any true next gen games to even jump to that conclusion.

Sure they’ll be more taxing over time, but the optimisation capabilities with next-gen are a significant leap over what was capable on last-gen, especially when we factor in features like Mesh and Primitive Shaders.

 

[Haggard]

Except that they’re not.

We’ve not even had any true next gen games to even jump to that conclusion.

Sure they’ll be more taxing over time, but the optimisation capabilities with next-gen are a significant leap over what was capable on last-gen, especially when we factor in features like Mesh and Primitive Shaders.

Yadday yadda yadda. Every bit of additional optimization wiggle room is immediately eaten up by the next additional centimeter of render distance, one more light bounce aso.
Limits are limits and the only thing better than strong hardware is stronger hardware.

 

[MaKTaiL]

Honestly I don't see the point of a Pro console this generation.

 

[Doctor Hades]

Honestly I don't see the point of a Pro console this generation.

Certainly not yet, I would agree with you.

The problem with the last-gen consoles was they had woefully weak Jaguar CPUs that meant most games only ran at 30 fps. With the new machines, we now finally have a decent CPU plus super-fast storage and developers are adding different graphics modes so we can now choose between 4K 30 fps, upscaled 4K 60 fps and 1080p/1440p 120 fps modes. The only thing a Pro model could offer is higher resolutions at 60 fps and 120 fps, with and without ray-tracing, and, personally, I do not think that would be an easy sell this generation, especially with stock scarcity and the rising cost of living. I would wager that most people will be perfectly happy with the PS5 or Xbox Series X and even the Xbox Series S for that matter.

Also, I feel ray-tracing is massively over-rated. Sure, it can look nice when you stop and look around but, ultimately, after a few minutes of playing these games I completely forget that ray-tracing is even in the game. It's not like the faked global illumination, shadows and reflections looked that bad; in some ways they actually look more aesthetically pleasing since most games do not go for a photo-realistic look but one that is more stylised and rasterised effects suit this art style in my opinion. Just look at the recent Hitman 3 comparison video with and without ray-tracing on the PC; the faked effects look so good already that the ray-traced version hardly looks any better at first glance but the performance hit is absolutely huge: a 75% loss in the framerate (which is why this is not coming to the current gen consoles).

 

[TheRedRiders]

Yadday yadda yadda. Every bit of additional optimization wiggle room is immediately eaten up by the next additional centimeter of render distance, one more light bounce aso.
Limits are limits and the only thing better than strong hardware is stronger hardware.

Lumen in the Land of Nanite is a good example, UE5’s use of compute shaders (similar to Mesh/Primitive Shaders), allowed them to manage the LOD and tessellation of geometry to a very remarkable extent, and that demo was pushing an absurd amount of polygons and ultra high resolution textures on PS5 hardware, whilst also using multi-bounce software global illumination. All of this at 1440p at 30 FPS which is not bad given the hardware.

So the notion that these consoles can’t handle next-gen engines because they are being pushed by old un-optimised engines (which lack any meaningful optimisation and performance features) is stupid.

 

[Moses85]

 

[Elbereth]

When the inevitable happens, I’ll buy it and the Pro version of the Xbox.

It is what it is.

 

[cyberheater]

This would be great for the up and coming PSVR2.

 

[Haggard]

All of this at 1440p at 30 FPS which is not bad given the hardware.

1440p / 30 at an absolute and completely unrealistic best case scenario for Nanite and Lumen....
Uh-huh, totally not GPU restrained already........ Meanwhile the matrix demo immediately crashes to sub 20 FPS the moment non Nanite meshes are needed and Lumen is cutting corners everywhere. Those are hardware limitations. Some you can maybe circumvent with optimization but in the end the only real solution is always "moar powah"

So the notion that these consoles can’t handle next-gen engines because they are being pushed by old un-optimised engines which lack optimisation and performance features is stupid.

.... Read stuff you answer to properly next time. No one said that....
But the hardware limitations are already visible and that's a fact.
Stronger hardware is better, always.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

If stuff like this matters to you, just get a pc it’s a perfect machine for those who lost the sight of what’s important in gaming !

I’d argue that precision controls are a big part of what’s important in gaming

In all seriousness, I still don’t see a ps5 pro being a machine that will be both affordable and able to push high quality ray tracing at 4K60.

My thoughts on PS5 Pro and a Series X upgrade are that Unreal Engine 5 is going to tax hardware pretty heavily (following the Matrix demo, which was arguably unoptimised I imagine) and that a Pro machine will be what is necessary to get those open world games pushing 60fps at a reasonable resolution.

 

[TheRedRiders]

1440p / 30 at an absolute and completely unrealistic best case scenario for Nanite and Lumen....
Uh-huh, totally not GPU restrained already........ Meanwhile the matrix demo immediately crashes to sub 20 FPS the moment non Nanite meshes are needed and Lumen is cutting corners everywhere. Those are hardware limitations. Some you can maybe circumvent with optimization but in the end the only real solution is always "moar powah"

Expect that it was running at a smooth 30 FPS, and it wasn’t relying heavily on the upsampling like Matrix demo was. Might explain why there was no heavy artifacting around the character and environments.

Even the flying sequence on the Lumen in the Land of Nanite Demo didn’t hit any significant frame drops, even though the sequence itself was very heavy.

I’ve played the Matrix demo and it’s not better than Lumen in the Land of Nanite in terms of visuals, and it runs worse lol the Matrix demo was optimised poorly across the systems, the Coalition developers don’t even have a lot of experience with PS5 hardware, there’s many reasons why it ran poor, but the main being was that developers weren’t willing to put time and effort optimising it across the different platforms

Again, I think it’s a bad idea to jump to conclusions based on one graphics engine, next-gen isn’t even out in full force.

.... Read stuff you answer to properly next time. No one said that....
But the hardware limitations are already visible and that's a fact.
Stronger hardware is better, always.

Your original premise was that a game like Horizon Forbidden West was struggling to hit 60 FPS even with checkerboard 1440p (which funnily enough was an “edge case scenario” amongst Sony’s 1st parties on PS5) and that consoles are already being pushed by such games so they’ll only age worse as time goes on. Spin it however you want lol

I’m not against the idea of a PS5 Pro, nor did I argue that more power wasn’t the solution.

 

[saintjules]

If stuff like this matters to you, just get a pc it’s a perfect machine for those who lost the sight of what’s important in gaming !

Yea. Just got to wait 3 years for a PS exclusive game to hit the platform lol.

Imagine waiting for a Bloodborne PC port.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Yadday yadda yadda. Every bit of additional optimization wiggle room is immediately eaten up by the next additional centimeter of render distance, one more light bounce aso.
Limits are limits and the only thing better than strong hardware is stronger hardware.

Wow dude! Excellent response to a repeating broken record. Some people just have no clue as to what's right in front of their eyes and just refuse to accept reality.

 

[HTK]

Honestly I don't see the point of a Pro console this generation.

Here's some points:
- Improve Recording/Streaming quality directly from console.
- Run Open World Games at consistent 60FPS with good graphical fidelity without sacrificing quality.
- Run MP/Battle Royal games at consistent 120 fps at 1080p and/or 1440p at higher fidelity. Also upscale 1440p to 4k/120fps that's rock solid.
- Improved Ray Tracing performance across the board without sacrificing frames per second.

Just some things to ponder.

 

[ChiefDada]

Nothing is going to come because Taiwan is going to be invaded.

Long-term? Sure. But China's been eying the Russia/Ukraine conflict and I don't think their appetite for an invasion is as immediate as it was a few months ago.

Back on topic, I find it hard to believe a mid gen refresh is coming in 2023. Late 2024 at the earliest. Indeed this will be a looonnngggg generation and I'm ok with that. Better this gen prolonged than the last one.

 

[Memorabilia]

I'd be somewhat more interested in a PS5 slim.

The current PS5 Supermassive Chungus Edition is ugly af with the only upside to the design being its big enough that in the event of a zombie apocalypse it could be used to destroy undead brains via blunt force trauma.

So, yeah, I'd rather Sony give us a svelte, cool running re-design that isn't visually offensive.

That said, I'd probably go for a Pro as long as it isn't more than $600ish and they at least tone down the super tacky aesthetics & give us one in all black or gunmetal gray, etc...

But let's get real guys n gals...with Sony being particularly vulnerable to current supply shortages & being unable to supply enough standard PS5 consoles, I don't see a Pro as being very realistic for at least a couple years.

 

[solidus12]

What IF instead of releasing a PS5 Pro, Sony would release a PS5 Ultimate, where you can play all your discs from PS1, PS2, and PS3. would you buy that console for 600$?

 

[Crispy Gamer]

In two years? I love new tech so I'm here for it! Sony and Microsoft proved last generation that they'll treat the beefier hardware just as if it's current gen and nobody's left behind as far as having the same games.

 

[ChiefDada]

Meanwhile the matrix demo immediately crashes to sub 20 FPS the moment non Nanite meshes are needed and Lumen is cutting corners everywhere. Those are hardware limitations.

The folks who made the demo disagree. They claim the bottleneck present in the Matrix demo was software optimization that needs to be pushed on their end. From Eurogamer article:

In the final portion of the demo, you're free to explore the world and it does seem like fast traversal causes some issues, but this is part and parcel of ongoing development work, as Michal Valient, Director of Platform and Rendering Engineering explains: "The bottleneck, the hitches you see... it's not the I/O, the I/O on the machines is really good. We still have some kinks to work out in the way we initialise data. So actually, yeah, it's work for us to do."

 

[Wooxsvan]

There's people who will pay more. The PS4 pro kept the $400 price going when the amateur went down to 300. The xbox midgen pushed it up to $500 and it was no problem. I can believe its coming and it would be $599.

Im hoping for this as iv said many times, i want an actual Pro model with Pro hardware and am willing to pay for it. 599 or even 699. bring it.

 

[ChiefDada]

Stronger hardware is better, always.

All else equal, sure. But you know TheRedRiders is rightfully highlighting the significant importance of software optimization. Fact of the matter is we haven't seen the limits of the current gen console capabilities because the engines are currently playing catch up. I can't understand why this is such a controversial topic for a select few here.

 

[Xtib81]

'Next gen consoles are plenty powerful' Meanwhile, dying light 2 runs in 1080p/60fps and forbidden west is shimmering fest at 60fps. I'm not even talking about 1/4 resolution Ray tracing on most games.
The truth is we need to ditch old gen NOW and we need more power asap.
Give me a 600€ Ps5 pro in 2024 Sony, I'll be there day one.

 

[Haggard]

Your original premise was that a game like Horizon Forbidden West was struggling to hit 60 FPS even with checkerboard 1440p (which funnily enough was an “edge case scenario” amongst Sony’s 1st parties on PS5) and that consoles are already being pushed by such games so they’ll only age worse as time goes on. Spin it however you want lol

1/4th of what I actually said plus 3/4ths from the voices in your head. Good god woman....

 

[TheRedRiders]

All else equal, sure. But you know TheRedRiders is rightfully highlighting the significant importance of software optimization. Fact of the matter is we haven't seen the limits of the current gen console capabilities because the engines are currently playing catch up. I can't understand why this is such a controversial topic for a select few here.

1/4th of what I actually said plus 3/4ths from the voices in your head. Good god woman....

 

[DeepEnigma]

Lumen in the Land of Nanite is a good example, UE5’s use of compute shaders (similar to Mesh/Primitive Shaders), allowed them to manage the LOD and tessellation of geometry to a very remarkable extent, and that demo was pushing an absurd amount of polygons and ultra high resolution textures on PS5 hardware, whilst also using multi-bounce software global illumination. All of this at 1440p at 30 FPS which is not bad given the hardware.

So the notion that these consoles can’t handle next-gen engines because they are being pushed by old un-optimised engines which lack optimisation and performance features is stupid.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Wow dude! Excellent response to a repeating broken record. Some people just have no clue as to what's right in front of their eyes and just refuse to accept reality.

Awfully cheap coming from someone like you.

EDIT : funnily enough as others have pointed out, your lack of self-awareness is also hilarious.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Bruh, the PS5 is barely out

PS4 launched in 2013, Pro launched in 2016. With that schedule a 2023 release wouldn't be out of line but I feel 2024 or 2025 might be more reasonable dates given the chip fiasco.

 

[JackSparr0w]

Your referring to HFW? That was an exception not the trend. Many cross-gen games have been hitting 60 FPS on dynamic 1440-2160P native resolution.

That doesn’t take into account that the next-gen engines will be more optimised and better suited to the next-gen hardware.

Nah 60fps is at 1440p while 30 fps is with dynamic 4k. Native non-dynamic 4k is as rare as unicorns.

For next gen exclusives 1080p 60fps and 1440 30fps will become the norm.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Nah 60fps is at 1440p while 30 fps is with dynamic 4k. Native non-dynamic 4k is as rare as unicorns.

For next gen exclusives 1080p 60fps and 1440 30fps will become the norm.

Those are my predictions too but I think it may vary on an engine to engine basis.

 

[TrackZ]

I've had gaming PC's over the years. I prefer the convenience of a console. Sony should make a filthy expensive premium console and a bargain bucket console. There certainly is a market for a premium ps5, hopefully they'll go all out on the pro!

I'd buy 2 of 'em!

 

[GymWolf]

 

[Haggard]

All else equal, sure. But you know TheRedRiders is rightfully highlighting the significant importance of software optimization. Fact of the matter is we haven't seen the limits of the current gen console capabilities because the engines are currently playing catch up. I can't understand why this is such a controversial topic for a select few here.

They can play catch up all they want. None of the console SoCs has even remotely enough bandwidth for anything meaningful... Best ppl can hope for is a scope limited beauty the likes of which ND produces f.e.
The asset quality from horizon will not look dated in comparison to Sony games from 2025 and the RT lighting will still be limited if at all available with only a handful of actually shadow throwing lightsources per scene.
That's just how it is with 500 USD budget systems...

 

[TheRedRiders]

They can play catch up all they want. None of the console SoCs has even remotely enough bandwidth for anything meaningful... Best ppl can hope for is a scope limited beauty the likes of which ND produces f.e.
The asset quality from horizon will not look dated in comparison to Sony games from 2025 and the RT lighting will still be limited if at all available with only a handful of actually shadow throwing lightsources per scene.
That's just how it is with 500 USD budget systems...

Please elaborate on what you mean by "meaningful" ? lol No one here even knows how to define "next-gen" graphics and it changes from person to person and yet here you guys are jumping to massive conclusions based on very little information.

The bandwidth issues will mainly effect resolution, hence the predictions for 1440p at 30 FPS and this is towards the end of the generation on fully next-gen engines.

As for the "asset quality" on PS5 titles, this argument will age very poorly. You can achieve micro-polygon rendering systems similar to Nanite on both the PS5 and Series X and it's not too difficult from a developer standpoint, this is one of the primary features Mesh and Primitive Shaders provide. Nvidia and AMD have entire presentations on this very subject.

As for ray-tracing on consoles...yes the hardware is limited relatively but developers have made good use of it, Spider-man's RT reflections are impressive at both 30 and 60 FPS and make a big impact on the games visuals, although I'd add the caveat that RT implementations only make sense given the context of the scene, we can sit and complain that the consoles won't do anything "meaningful" with RT but neither has PC, nor will it until we can achieve fully path traced global illumination which is years away.

 

[Nocturno999]

Nah man, nothing released is anywhere near pushing these systems. So yeah, nothing released to warrant an upgrade.

New consoles were maxxed on day one. These companies keep pushing the useless resolution war.

 

[DeepEnigma]

New consoles were maxxed on day one.