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Roland Garros - The 2015 French Open (OT)

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C

con-ca-te-nate

Member
Lol. I can't wait to get home and read MTF for some Nadal Tards meltdown. Pretty sure it's nasty out there. haha (I'm currently on my work and don't have access to MTF. :D)
 
J

jett

D-Member
MIMIC said:
That because a virtually invincible Novak (2015) could beat Nadal at RG, an actually invincible Novak (2011) probably would have beaten him, too?



Do you know what an exaggeration is?

(BTW, I just called Novak "invincible". Hope that's OK)
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I'm not sure you're making much sense.
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
John Dunbar said:
you have no point. what happens in 2015 does not even faintly suggest what might have happened in alternative universe 2011.
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The real disparity here is the difference between Nadal (2011) and Nadal (2015). Also, consider that this was a QF match, Nadal is very much a confidence player and, usually by the time he reaches the final, he's almost invincible at Roland Garros. It was a good time for Novak to play Rafa in the QFs; with Nadal still trying to find his form, after an awful clay court season, his nemesis was perfectly placed to take him out of the draw earlier than usual. Sure, I see the parallels between Djokovic in 2011 and 2015. He's playing incredible clay court tennis, I just don't see the the same parallels with Nadal. Djokovic beat a shadow of a player today. On that basis alone it's difficult to draw any conclusions about what have might have occurred in 2011.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Nadal currently going to be seeded #12 at Wimbledon. Can go up to #8 under best possible circumstances, can go as low as #14.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
PedroPanache said:
The real disparity here is the difference between Nadal (2011) and Nadal (2015). Also, consider that this was a QF match, Nadal is very much a confidence player and, usually by the time he reaches the final, he's almost invincible at Roland Garros. It was a good time for Novak to play Rafa in the QFs; with Nadal still trying to find his form, after an awful clay court season, his nemesis was perfectly placed to take him out of the draw earlier than usual. Sure, I see the parallels between Djokovic in 2011 and 2015. He's playing incredible clay court tennis, I just don't see the the same parallels with Nadal. Djokovic beat a shadow of a player today. On that basis alone it's difficult to draw any conclusions about what have might have occurred in 2011.
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What version of Nadal did he beat in 2011? Why do you think everyone pegged Djokovic to beat Nadal this year AND in 2011? It had nothing to do with Nadal's form; it was all about Novak's form.
 
J

John Dunbar

correct about everything
MIMIC said:
What version of Nadal did he beat in 2011? Why do you think everyone pegged Djokovic to beat Nadal this year AND 2011? It had nothing to do with Nadal's form; it was all about Novak's form.
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everyone also pegged him to beat federer in 2011. everyone were wrong.

but to answer the question: not the 2011 french open version.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
John Dunbar said:
everyone also pegged him to beat federer in 2011. everyone were wrong.
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And you can bet that everyone has Djokovic pegged to win the rest of his matches this year. But that will simply not happen.

You are completely and continuously missing the point.
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
MIMIC said:
What version of Nadal did he beat in 2011? Why do you think everyone pegged Djokovic to beat Nadal this year AND in 2011? It had nothing to do with Nadal's form; it was all about Novak's form.
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He was at a much higher level than the guy that just faded away today. It's the one match-up that I regret never came to pass, because it was potentially far, far more compelling than what took place today. Nadal had a good clay court season in 2011. Djokovic had proved him vulnerable on the clay, but the true test would have been the Roland Garros final. Alas, Federer fucked it all up and we got that final instead.

Today, it was all about form as well. Djokovic's rock solid form and Nadal's non-existent form. It's sad because the wrong guy gatecrashed the party in 2011. I just don't think you can point to today's match and juxtapose it with heir potential match-up in 2011 and claim it as further evidence that Djokovic would have beaten him that day. It was pretty divided back then as to who would win their 2011 encounter. Fast forward to today and nobody, outside of the crazy fanboy commentators, had Nadal coming out of their match with anything more than a set for his troubles. I really, really regret not firing the trigger on betting on a 3 set victory for Djokovic.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
For what it's worth, I don't actually think that Nadal was far away from his peak form in 2011, given 2010 was his best ever year.
 
J

John Dunbar

correct about everything
MIMIC said:
And you can bet that everyone has Djokovic pegged to win the rest of his matches this year. But that will simply not happen.

You are completely and continuously missing the point.
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can you spell out exactly what your point is, then? that djokovic would have been the favourite in a match that never took place?
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
Crab said:
For what it's worth, I don't actually think that Nadal was far away from his peak form in 2011, given 2010 was his best ever year.
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He was a little more patchy in 2011, but obviously nothing like the abomination that his 2015 clay court season has been. It was a good build-up troubled by an imperial Djokovic. It's what made that 2011 Roland Garros so intriguing. Could Djokovic take into a 5 setter what he had done to Nadal in those best of three weeks earlier. There was no obvious favourite in that potential match, not in my mind, at least. Personally, I would have had it down for Djokovic in 5 sets.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
PedroPanache said:
He was at a much higher level than the guy that just faded away today. It's the one match-up that I regret never came to pass, because it was potentially far, far more compelling than what took place today. Nadal had a good clay court season in 2011. Djokovic had proved him vulnerable on the clay, but the true test would have been the Roland Garros final. Alas, Federer fucked it all up and we got that final instead.

Today, it was all about form as well. Djokovic's rock solid form and Nadal's non-existent form. It's sad because the wrong guy gatecrashed the party in 2011. I just don't think you can point to today's match and juxtapose it with heir potential match-up in 2011 and claim it as further evidence that Djokovic would have beaten him that day. It was pretty divided back then as to who would win their 2011 encounter. Fast forward to today and nobody, outside of the crazy fanboy commentators, had Nadal coming out of their match with anything more than a set for his troubles. I really, really regret not firing the trigger on betting on a 3 set victory for Djokovic.
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Even with Nadal's "non-existent" form, who else would have beaten Nadal at the French? Federer? Murray? I think it's a little wrong to downplay Nadal's form given that he probably would have beaten everyone outside of Novak.

Djokovic has always been able to play Nadal in a way that nobody else could.....much like how Nadal plays Federer in a way that most can't. And when an existing match-up issue is magnified by impeccable form (like it was today), I think it's pretty fair, IMO, to conclude that the steamrolling would have continued.

We didn't get the RG final, but we got Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. Djokovic had 1) never been to a Wimbledon final, 2) had never beaten Nadal in a slam, and 3) lost their only grass court meeting. And none of that mattered because Djokovic was in superb form, had the psychological advantage over Nadal (4-0 in finals that year) and had the advantage of an existing match-up issue.

As the Federer-Nadal series (and to a lesser extent, the Djokovic-Nadal series) has shown, match-up and form is usually a pretty good indicator as to who will win the match. And in the hypothetical 2011 match, I think today shows that Djokovic probably would have won. These two have a long history that can't be ignored.
 
J

John Dunbar

correct about everything
MIMIC said:
Even with Nadal's "non-existent" form, who else would have beaten Nadal at the French? Federer? Murray? I think it's a little wrong to downplay Nadal's form given that he probably would have beaten everyone outside of Novak.
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you seems to place a lot of value on the run up to the french open, so the answer is a lot of people. who has nadal exactly beaten on clay this season, or on any surface for that matter? i totally disagree with your assessment that he would have beaten anyone but djokovic. i don't think nadal would have made the final even if he had been on the opposite side of the draw. nadal has simply been awful this year.
 
RedAssedApe

RedAssedApe

Banned
Crab said:
Nadal currently going to be seeded #12 at Wimbledon. Can go up to #8 under best possible circumstances, can go as low as #14.
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oh man. dude's gonna be playing seeded players that first week. hope he ends up in djoker and murray's side of the draw again and fed gets that cakewalk to week 2 and we get more conspiracy theorists lol
 
P

perfectchaos007

Member
I'm pulling for a Djokovic vs. Tsonga final. Back at the AO in 2008, Djokovic won his first slam title, and it was against......Tsonga. How poetic would it be for Djokovic to complete his career slam against the man he won his first title against?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Personally I'm hoping for a hilarious Fedal R4.

Right now I'm rooting for:

1. Tsonga
2. Murray
3. Wawrinka
4. Djokovic

I like all of the remaining players, though, so I don't mind too much whoever wins.
 
J

John Dunbar

correct about everything
perfectchaos007 said:
I'm pulling for a Djokovic vs. Tsonga final. Back at the AO in 2008, Djokovic won his first slam title, and it was against......Tsonga. How poetic would it be for Djokovic to complete his career slam against the man he won his first title against?
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the real poetry will be dropped on friday when clayray feeds the serb some dirt.
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
MIMIC said:
Even with Nadal's "non-existent" form, who else would have beaten Nadal at the French? Federer? Murray? I think it's a little wrong to downplay Nadal's form given that he probably would have beaten everyone outside of Novak.

Djokovic has always been able to play Nadal in a way that nobody else could.....much like how Nadal plays Federer in a way that most can't. And when an existing match-up issue is magnified by impeccable form (like it was today), I think it's pretty fair, IMO, to conclude that the steamrolling would have continued.

We didn't get the RG final, but we got Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. Djokovic had 1) never been to a Wimbledon final, 2) had never beaten Nadal in a slam, and 3) lost their only grass court meeting. And none of that mattered because Djokovic was in superb form, had the psychological advantage over Nadal (4-0 in finals that year) and had the advantage of an existing match-up issue.

As the Federer-Nadal series (and to a lesser extent, the Djokovic-Nadal series) has shown, match-up and form is usually a pretty good indicator as to who will win the match. And in the hypothetical 2011 match, I think today shows that Djokovic probably would have won. These two have a long history that can't be ignored.
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I understand your point. I don't really agree that anything that occurred on the court today can be tangibly linked to that potential encounter in 2011. Those psychological advantages can break so easily, and whose to say that the hold Djokovic had over Nadal in 2011 would have translated into a win for Novak. The interesting thing about their rivalry, in recent years, is the stranglehold they've had over each for sequences of matches. Once one breaks, it's time for the other to build a sequence of 4+ wins in a row. 2011 Nadal was good enough to compete against Djokovic at Roland Garros. 2015 Nadal was losing clay court matches to players that had never beaten him before on the surface, not just that, they were beating him in convincing style.

So, whilst I see what you're getting at, my counter point is that 2015 Nadal is so far behind the top 5 players, even on clay courts, this year that it's impossible to use today's match as some kind of barometer for Nadal/Djokovic 2011.

I don't think there's much more to add to that, otherwise we'll be going round in circles. That's pretty much my final say on the matter. Looking forward to Murray/Djokovic; nervous for Murray, as I really want him to win but can't see it happening. Tsonga/Wawrinka is the real pick of the Semis. 5 set epic incoming.
 
S

szaromir

Banned
henhowc said:
lol im scared but also curious now

also...is clayray actually a thing like one of those brad gilbert-isms or some inside joke between tennis gaf :p
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Clayray is the almighty creature that the tennis gods turned Andy Murray into after his disappointing loss in Miami. Clayray was long prophesized, first mentions of him date as far back as the middle period of ancient Egypt. Clayray is expected to plough through through the 2015 clay season and vanish as soon as it's handed the FO trophy.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
The Last Wizard said:
I still think fognini fucked up djokovic's rhythm that French open with his forfeit.
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Meh. I used to think that, but Fed played really well, so I think he probably was destined to lose that SF.

And Federer is always extra motivated when he feels that Djokovic is hogging the spotlight, lol
 
T

tycoonheart

Member
MIMIC said:
Meh. I used to think that, but Fed played really well, so I think he probably was destined to lose that SF.

And Federer is always extra motivated when he feels that Djokovic is hogging the spotlight, lol
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Fed played the match of his life pretty much.
 
Y

yyzjohn

Banned
Geez and here I was thinking Nadal was holding back in other tournaments and would romp at Roland Garros. How wrong I was.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
yyzjohn said:
Geez and here I was thinking Nadal was holding back in other tournaments and would romp at Roland Garros. How wrong I was.
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If someone had taken out Djokovic, then he would have. Aside from Soderling, Djokovic was the only person who ever stood a realistic chance of beating Nadal at the French. It was just a matter of executing.

EDIT: Well, I shouldn't say that Soderling "ever stood a chance". That kinda just happened out of no where.
 
K

Kotetsu534

Member
Djokovic still on for winning the FO without dropping a set. He would become only the fourth player ever to have done so (alongside Nastase, Borg and Nadal).
 
P

PedroPanache

Member
I think if, by some miracle, Djokovic hadn't made the QFs, Nadal would have succumbed to Murray or Wawrinka. They would have just bullied him off court. He's well, well short of confidence and fitness. I think there was 4 or 5 guys that would have stopped Nadal this year at Roland Garros. Form is king and his form during the clay court season has been poor.

The early exit and the extra time to prepare for Wimbledon may make him a dark horse for SW19; then again, it all depends on how bad his knees are. I'd like him to go far into the tournament, but that would be a minor miracle, I know. He's just having a bad year, not unlike the awful year Federer had in 2013. I don't think he'll do anything of note, but I think he can make a comeback in 2016. Fed fans can breathe a sigh of relief, as Nadal is probably not going to surpass Fed's GS total.
 
T

T-0800

Member
If Nadal's ranking dropped outside of the top 20 next year do you think he would retire? Federer keeps going because he loves everything about the game. Doesn't hurt that at 33 he's also good enough to be No 2 in the world.

Not saying I think he will drop outside the top 20 just putting a 'what if' out there.
 
S

szaromir

Banned
T-0800 said:
If Nadal's ranking dropped outside of the top 20 next year do you think he would retire? Federer keeps going because he loves everything about the game. Doesn't hurt that at 33 he's also good enough to be No 2 in the world.

Not saying I think he will drop outside the top 20 just putting a 'what if' out there.
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Nadal missed several months last year and he's #8 in the race. He won't drop that low.
 
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