I think signs are pointing that direction,
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43072855&postcount=199
Rumor: Wii U final specs
- Thread starter EatChildren
- Start date
I think signs are pointing that direction,
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43072855&postcount=199
Fourth Storm
Member
Well yes, historically GPUs have been on 55 nm, 40 nm, 28 nm, and etc. But is there any technological reason for a custom design to stick to those prerequisites? There are Trinity systems at 32nm, I believe. I was also mislead by GF and IBM sharing the same 32/28 nm HKMG tech. IBM's eDRAM is made to be placed on-chip, but I guess I can see there still being some challenges coupling it with a non-IBM core design.
It sounds like much of the team had experience with the Wii and GCN previously, so much of the Wii U design was a natural extension of the previous 2. I know Renesas and NEC are now one. I wonder if some of the old NEC people lent any ideas.
specialguy
Banned
Wow, I'm rofling
specialguy
Banned
But there's this:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1672537&postcount=2845
A 28nm GPU of those dimensions would likely have to have a whole lot of transistors. Doesn't seem realistic imo.
500-700m trans (not even counting EDRAM) jives so much better with what we've seen out of the machine to date than 1-1.4B would it's not even funny.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Nope. If it's indeed .06um^2 per cell then that amounts to 16mm^2
Bony Manifesto
Member
Yeah, I wasn't being ironic. Nintendo have a great reputation for solid hardware, and I believe their engineers are some of the best in the world when it comes to making robust, simple and cheap hardware. Looking at the Wii U design, there's absolutely nothing exotic or superfluous in there at all, unlike the PS3 and 360, where the internals are all over-engineered messes, with hundreds of custom components all crammed in there.
I never suggested otherwise.
I said "seemingly mundane". And sure, the details are important, but I think there's more important things to talk about regarding the Wii U before going into that sort of minutiae...
And I've no doubt you can tell me about the subtle design features of any product I care to mention, because pretty much all companies talk about those sorts of things these days. But I'd be more interested if you could identify where these products were lacking. When that guy was talking in this interview about how they put USB ports on the front of the console, changed the front flap to open inwards, and moved the sync button to the outside, it did make me wonder how much people actually notice these things. Were consumers frustrated by the lack of front USB ports, concealed sync button and the opening direction of the front flap in the Wii? Did people appreciate the front USB ports, unconcealed sync button and flap opening direction on the 360? It's not clear exactly where common sense ends and engineering genius begins...
specialguy
Banned
Interesting read thanks to iwata asks, any transistor count estimations for the CPU?
The GPU is almost certainly not 40nm. 28nm is likely considering the problems with manufacturing, we'll have to see what sort of performance the GPU has, though I'm pretty sure it's sub TFLOPs range, or EPIC would be targeting the console with UE4, then again with that same token of thought, it hints at XB3 being around 1TFLOPs for the GPU (obviously on the plus side) -This is especially a strong hint if you take into account that EPIC was targeting multiple TFLOPs for UE4 and dropped it to just 1TF after actually seeing all 3 consoles.
Sorry to go off topic, I'm still much more interested in the CPU atm, we know the GPU's performance range is fairly big compared to current gen consoles but will end up shy of other next gen consoles.
The GPU is almost certainly not 40nm. 28nm is likely considering the problems with manufacturing, we'll have to see what sort of performance the GPU has, though I'm pretty sure it's sub TFLOPs range, or EPIC would be targeting the console with UE4, then again with that same token of thought, it hints at XB3 being around 1TFLOPs for the GPU (obviously on the plus side) -This is especially a strong hint if you take into account that EPIC was targeting multiple TFLOPs for UE4 and dropped it to just 1TF after actually seeing all 3 consoles.
Sorry to go off topic, I'm still much more interested in the CPU atm, we know the GPU's performance range is fairly big compared to current gen consoles but will end up shy of other next gen consoles.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I was reading somewhere that using edram would make little to no sense if they go with gddr5 memory for video memory at least.That the bandwidth simply wouldn't be an issue anymore so no need to try to overcome it with inclusion of edram.
specialguy
Banned
probably read it from me lol. i've been bringing it up repeatedly because some people seem to be pushing on gddr5 in wii u. in which case it doesnt have 32mb edram. it makes no sense to have both.
ms and nintendo are likely using ddr3.
thats why durango can pack 8gb, it's cheap. gddr5 is expensive and also difficult to have over 4gb in any case.
so to me, packing a little edram in might give you a big ram advantage.
but i'm not a programmer so i cant say which approach is better.
even with e/d/sram, ddr3 may be a hindrance.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
While GDDR5 helps a lot when it comes to BW, it makes the matter worse when it comes to latency. eDRAM helps both with BW and latency.
Haha. No.
But it wipes the floor with those two in terms of efficiency.
Steve McQueen
Member
I really, really tried to understand all you guys wrote here, but it's just all doesn't make sense to me :S Is it possible, with all the info from "Iwata asks" to estimate the horsepower of the WiiU compared to the 360 and PS3?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
No. It's just neat inside design & manufacturing info.
McHuj
Member
No. That looks right.
I think the 0.06 number is probably just the memory cell and doesn't include the overhead associated with actually being able to read and write to that memory. For some variations of 1T-SRAM, that could double the actual size.
Even if it did in this case, that's still only around ~32mm for 32MB which is not bad at all. If that's true, then the GPU is almost certainly 40nm. With a 28nm GPU you basically be looking at something like Cape Verde + 32MB EDRAM in the size of the pictured GPU.
unless it were cape verde running at 300 MHz
But they didn't say they had problems with yield though did they? I thought they were talking about the development of the console before manufacture.
specialguy
Banned
from b3d/entropy
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1672608&postcount=2868
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1672622&postcount=2873
His numbers are close to what my estimates were though, so I'm kinda proud of that. Or I guess to say the simplest of calculations yield reasonable results here lol.
I think his first post nails it. You're probably left with ~100mm^2 of a 40nm GPU left over. Which equates to ~50mm^2 of a 28nmGPU. Which explains why the games dont look spectacular or why they didn't just use a Cape Verde (123mm^2@28nm), etc. It's still going to beat an X360 even in my book.
Steve McQueen
Member
BOPS2 1080p vs 720p- on others? Sonic All Star Racing 2 with more effects and 5 players? Trine director putting a content that Ps360 can't run?
An console that is a little more powerful will not gain good ports in the first months of life. Look, for example, the port of Ps2's games for 3DS.
There is more juice on Wii U, a enough amount to a developer that don't know much about that machine can port your game from Ps360 with better graphics.
Fourth Storm
Member
That we have no solid information on Renesas eDRAM beyond 40nm has me leaning towards that process now. Hmmm. If that's the case I wonder if the 600 Mhz e4690 would be a better "base" to build from. It is based on R700 with a 320:32:8 core config. Seeing as that I don't believe ROPs have been a bottleneck this gen, we've heard 1.5x general performance rumors, and that there is still that nice group of 32 TMUs to feed off that on-chip eDRAM, this config might actually make some sense. That whole e4690 MCM with RAM was 25 watts at 55 nm...
Plus, if Matt is to be believed, there would be less general purpose registers than the e6760, but it's possible Nintendo beefed up the ones available. Maybe even incorporated eDRAM there...
Plus, if Matt is to be believed, there would be less general purpose registers than the e6760, but it's possible Nintendo beefed up the ones available. Maybe even incorporated eDRAM there...
Call of Duty on the PS3/360 isn't even 720p, it's like 571p or something like that.
Can you link me to the source that states that Black Ops 2 runs at 1080p?
And no, a Treyarch PR guy calling it "full HD" is not a source
It was at the Wii U conference, "full HD" means 1080p.
Read my post again.
McHuj
Member
I have no doubt about that, I'm more interested in how it stacks up against next gen.
The guy speaking in the Wii U conference said it, and other people after that said it as well.
Fourth Storm
Member
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think I agree with you. I'm hopping on the 384 GFLOPS bandwagon.
So what does all this mean?
No 580GFLOP machine?
The Wii U is 2x more powerful than current-gen confirmed then.
When was this confirmed? BG keeps saying it's 580GFLOP.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
No 580GFLOP machine?
The Wii U is 2x more powerful than current-gen confirmed then.
Gemüsepizza
Member
No 580GFLOP machine?
The Wii U is 2x more powerful than current-gen confirmed then.
2x more powerful? I thought the Xbox 360 was at 250 GFLOPS.
If those numbers here are correct: Bad. The Xbox 360 has about 250 GFLOPS, the Xbox 720 is rumored to have about 1250 GFLOPS, the PS4 1800 GFLOPS.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
It probably doesn't. This looks like a machine designed to match or slightly exceed current consoles, while having a much lower power usage. Everything rumored about next PS and Xbox seems to indicate that they're shooting for similarly high power usage they had at launch with previous consoles.
And PS3 GPU was rated at something like 500GFLops, IIRC. The number itself is meaningless as it depends on how it's counted and what the GPU does with it.Gemüsepizza;43093786 said:
Fourth Storm
Member
No 580GFLOP machine?
The Wii U is 2x more powerful than current-gen confirmed then.
It may be a truth we have to accept. And the eDRAM being on die is still huge. Of course this is just my non expert assessment, but 28nm seems like a long shot. The config I mentioned a couple posts back makes more sense balance-wise taking into account the CPU and DDR3 bandwidth. And in my opinion, having 32 TMUs makes sense for Wii BC as long as they are hooked up to 32 macros of eDRAM, which they presumably are.
Gemüsepizza
Member
This was the number which was used by Tim Sweeney during an Unreal Engine talk. I know that Sony/MS tend to inflate their numbers for marketing purposes, but he seemed to know what he was talking about.
Are you actively trying to be as obtuse as possible? We all know it's going to be the exact same version as the HD twins until they release a statement otherwise.
You don't think they would proudly plaster that little tidbit of info everywhere if it were actually true?
By all accounts, it looks the same, it plays the same. Why even perpetuate this nonsense, it'll just string people along on false promises.
XtremeXpider
Member
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Can you link me to a source I agree with please?
Still a improvise from the less than 720p with only 1 screen on Ps360.
Gemüsepizza
Member
That's obviously the worst case. I am sure people can make better statements when we get the exact production process, but as Nintendo won't tell, we probably will have to wait until someone gets his hands on the chip to look inside.
I am not so sure if it is an improvement in a fast-paced egoshooter like Call of Duty, when you have to take your eyes off the screen.
soulassssns
Banned
Uber graphix = "advancing console hardware"?
That guy said it but that doesn't mean it's confirmed, BG is saying 580GFLOPS.
Gemüsepizza;43095102 said:
But wouldn't it actually be better with two screens because there are moments in the games already where you lose all visuals around your character such as when driving the RC car or bringing up the class selection? Now you can do those things AND still keep an eye out around you.
Gemüsepizza;43095102 said:
Yes but it's a real possibility, something that sincerely i didn't want to see (didn't even thought) in a new home console even from Nintendo... but i guess it was my fault to expect something.
in fact i didn't said "sub 400 GFLOP/s period" but "sub 400 GFLOP/s possibility"
Yeah i'm just saying though people shouldn't believe everything on the internet without facts, I mean I remember when a lot of people on Gaf said "The Wii U won't have a GPGPU, it's just a Nintendo fanboy dream" and than look what happened, that's why I don't believe until the facts come out.
speculawyer
Member
How many Wiis duct-taped together is that?
XtremeXpider
Member
3~4?
Yes.