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[DrNeroCF]

No, there's a difference between how the Wii/GC and WiiU/Wii BC operate. The Wii's CPU and GPU are literally just overclocked versions of the same components in the Gamecube, so when the Wii is playing GC games, all it has to do is clock down the CPU and GPU by one third and it basically just becomes a Gamecube, and hence experiences the same frame drops and performance issues.

The Wii U is a different thing altogether. Even though the CPU is reportedly based on the Wii's Broadway, just clocking down to 729MHz and running the code on one of the cores won't result in identical performance, as the significantly increased cache and possible microarchitectural changes could certainly affect how well CPU-limited games run.

The GPU is a bigger issue, as the Wii U's GPU is of a completely different architecture to the Wii's. I think this quote from the Wii U Iwata Asks is relevant:



(He's talking about IBM and/or AMD designers here)

I take this to mean that the Wii U's GPU doesn't have TEV hardware, but is configured to run Wii's graphics code natively (or easily emulate the Wii's GPU). Once you're running code on hardware it's not written for, it's very likely that performance won't be 100% identical to the original hardware. Given Nintendo's attitude on VC games, I would fully expect them to err on the side of improved performance.

Long story short, it's quite possible that the Wii U could play Wii games at improved framerates, but I wouldn't expect any major difference.

Even software emulators (which the Wii U will almost certainly not be) have to run at the speed as the original game, or it'll break the emulation. You can run the game faster, but you can't speed up the actual processing. Like, if a game is slowing down during a certain scene, and you speed up the emulation to get it back to 30 fps, the game will be going 2x the original speed at 30 fps, not 1x at 30 fps, if that makes any sense.

I think you can overclock a SuperFX chip and get Star Fox running slightly faster, but there's no magical, 'now it runs at a decent framerate' fix for anything that's being emulated. It's not like a PC game where throwing better clock speeds gives improved framerates without touching the game's overall speed.

I say that there's almost no way that Nintendo is doing software emulation of the Wii because that wouldn't guarantee 100% compatibility, even the Wii's VC games are relatively untouched (no 16:9 fix or filtering), and those have to be software emulated.

 

[Thraktor]

Even software emulators (which the Wii U will almost certainly not be) have to run at the speed as the original game, or it'll break the emulation. You can run the game faster, but you can't speed up the actual processing. Like, if a game is slowing down during a certain scene, and you speed up the emulation to get it back to 30 fps, the game will be going 2x the original speed at 30 fps, not 1x at 30 fps, if that makes any sense.

I think you can overclock a SuperFX chip and get Star Fox running slightly faster, but there's no magical, 'now it runs at a decent framerate' fix for anything that's being emulated. It's not like a PC game where throwing better clock speeds gives improved framerates without touching the game's overall speed.

I say that there's almost no way that Nintendo is doing software emulation of the Wii because that wouldn't guarantee 100% compatibility, even the Wii's VC games are relatively untouched (no 16:9 fix or filtering), and those have to be software emulated.

There's a difference between the kind of emulation you get with PC emulators for things like the SNES and hardware backwards compatibility you get in a console like the Wii U. There's also a difference between increasing the clock speed of the component (which I'm not talking about) and architectural changes such as increased/improved caches.

If a wholly CPU-limited Wii game were supposed to run at 30fps, but sometimes drops frames, it's because the CPU occasionally can't perform all the calculations necessary to put out a frame in the 33ms time it has. These frame drops aren't hard-coded, they just happen on the fly because a particularly complex scene requires more computational grunt than the developers had planned. Now, with the same game running on a core of the Wii U's CPU, clocked down to 729MHz, not even considering other microarchitectural changes, the improved cache is going to mean the code spends less time waiting for data to arrive from memory, and hence the game is going to perform more calculations in a given unit of time than it did on the Wii, if only slightly. Because of this, it's possible there will be times when the Wii's CPU can't perform the necessary calculations in 33ms, but the Wii U's CPU in Wii mode can, and frames which would have been dropped on the Wii aren't on the Wii U. The whole effect isn't going to be like some magical boost from 30fps to 60fps, or even anything likely to be easily noticeable to the naked eye, but it's entirely possible that Wii games running on the Wii U will have slightly fewer dropped frames than when they run on the Wii.

It's harder to say about the GPU, as we don't really have any idea how they're going to approach backwards-compatibility in that area, but once again architectural changes puts it entirely within the realm of possibility that GPU-limited Wii games will drop fewer frames when played on the Wii U.

 

[Smurfman256]

Ugh, how many times...? Nintendo has already STATED that it will be HARDWARE-based BC. HERE'S the quote to prove it.

Shiota: Yes. The designers were already incredibly familiar with the Wii, so without getting hung up on the two machines' completely different structures, they came up with ideas we would never have thought of. There were times when you would usually just incorporate both the Wii U and Wii circuits, like 1+1. But instead of just adding like that, they adjusted the new parts added to Wii U so they could be used for Wii as well.

 

[Thraktor]

Ugh, how many times...? Nintendo has already STATED that it will be HARDWARE-based BC. HERE'S the quote to prove it.

I actually quoted that exact statement in my original post, so I know what it says (and, importantly, what it means)

 

[lednerg]

1080p vs 720p represents the essence of diminishing returns. For a difference in picture quality that only a few could appreciate, you're asking a GPU to more than double its fill rate: (1920 x 1080) / (1280 x 720) = 2.25

For games that feature extensive use of FOV blurring, which seems to be somewhat of a trend in newer games, the difference is nigh impossible to discern, unless you're constantly pausing to glare at offending pixels. What most people would notice much easier is an inconsistent or slower framerate. If given the choice between 1080p @30fps or 720p @60fps, gamers will chose 720p @60fps much more so than the former. It's more worth it to have a smoother playing game than one that has pixels that are just a fraction of a millimeter smaller on even a 50" HDTV.

 

[ShadowFox08]

There's a difference between the kind of emulation you get with PC emulators for things like the SNES and hardware backwards compatibility you get in a console like the Wii U. There's also a difference between increasing the clock speed of the component (which I'm not talking about) and architectural changes such as increased/improved caches.

If a wholly CPU-limited Wii game were supposed to run at 30fps, but sometimes drops frames, it's because the CPU occasionally can't perform all the calculations necessary to put out a frame in the 33ms time it has. These frame drops aren't hard-coded, they just happen on the fly because a particularly complex scene requires more computational grunt than the developers had planned. Now, with the same game running on a core of the Wii U's CPU, clocked down to 729MHz, not even considering other microarchitectural changes, the improved cache is going to mean the code spends less time waiting for data to arrive from memory, and hence the game is going to perform more calculations in a given unit of time than it did on the Wii, if only slightly. Because of this, it's possible there will be times when the Wii's CPU can't perform the necessary calculations in 33ms, but the Wii U's CPU in Wii mode can, and frames which would have been dropped on the Wii aren't on the Wii U. The whole effect isn't going to be like some magical boost from 30fps to 60fps, or even anything likely to be easily noticeable to the naked eye, but it's entirely possible that Wii games running on the Wii U will have slightly fewer dropped frames than when they run on the Wii.

It's harder to say about the GPU, as we don't really have any idea how they're going to approach backwards-compatibility in that area, but once again architectural changes puts it entirely within the realm of possibility that GPU-limited Wii games will drop fewer frames when played on the Wii U.

This might sound like a stupid question, but:

Do you think online compatible game son the Wii, can be played on the Wii U? COD wii series for example..

 

[Bluth54]

This might sound like a stupid question, but:

Do you think online compatible game son the Wii, can be played on the Wii U? COD wii series for example..

As far as I know Nintendo hasn't said anything about this, but I don't see why they wouldn't let Wii games play online in the Wii U.

 

[FyreWulff]

This might sound like a stupid question, but:

Do you think online compatible game son the Wii, can be played on the Wii U? COD wii series for example..

They should be. I would think the system would just translate the calls to the Wii U's networking, and we know for a fact the Wii's USB ethernet adapter works on Wii U.

 

[Lord Error]

You can call it nitpicking, but I hope you don't think I'm being disingenuous. To me that really does look quite messy in terms of IQ, when scaled to fullscreen. (Note that I prefer using SGSSAA at 2560x1440, since regular MSAA just isn't temporally stable)

This game appears to be using no AA, or some selective MSAA in 720p, so yeah, the IQ is not the best.

Not to say that this looks bad, far from it IMO, but the closest I can compare this with visually and thematically is SSDHD on PS3, and that is running in full 1080p, 60FPS (also with no AA, or with 4xMSAA in 720p) while looking a lot more complex and busy that this.

 

[Durante]

This game appears to be using no AA, or some selective MSAA in 720p, so yeah, the IQ is not the best.

That's what I'm saying, but apparently 720p with no AA is the new (old?) "good enough". I strongly disagree.

 

[blu]

This game appears to be using no AA, or some selective MSAA in 720p, so yeah, the IQ is not the best.

It does not use MSAA - this much is apparent in screenshots. But it does motion blur (accumulation) and DOF, and most importantly, never keeps a frame still for the observer to notice the absence of AA.

Not to say that this looks bad, far from it IMO, but the closest I can compare this with visually and thematically is SSDHD on PS3, and that is running in full 1080p, 60FPS (also with no AA, or with 4xMSAA in 720p) while looking a lot more complex and busy that this.

When was last time you played SSD? Aside from particles SSD definitely does not look more complex.

 

[Smurfman256]

This game appears to be using no AA, or some selective MSAA in 720p, so yeah, the IQ is not the best.

Not to say that this looks bad, far from it IMO, but the closest I can compare this with visually and thematically is SSDHD on PS3, and that is running in full 1080p, 60FPS (also with no AA, or with 4xMSAA in 720p) while looking a lot more complex and busy that this.

??? What game is this?

 

[Luigiv]

??? Dustgame is this?

Super Star Dust HD.

 

[Smurfman256]

After viewing the Japanese Nintendo Direct, It seems as though my predicions were correct; your Nintendo Network username is your "Friend Code". At least this part of Nintendo Network is up-to-spec with the modern standard of Online gaming communities (Xbox LIVE, PSN, Steam, Origin, etc.)

 

[Smurfman256]

Super Star Dust HD.

Thanks.

 

[Dorfdad]

There was an update today on the extensive interview of Shin'en available here, (it got its own thread made by EC, here)

I copy/paste a few excerpts of the interesting and clearly reassuring answers pertaining to the Wii U power:




There's a few others, i put the new answer of today about resolution, anti-aliasing:



Clearly comforting on the technical side

eases all my concerns...

 

[Durante]

It does not use MSAA - this much is apparent in screenshots. But it does motion blur (accumulation) and DOF, and most importantly, never keeps a frame still for the observer to notice the absence of AA.

I disagree with this strongly, particularly at 720p. It's not so much that you see the usual "staircase artifacts" as you would in a slower game, however you still get significant temporal instability and edge flickering.

 

[Smurfman256]

So...Wii WaraWara... Opinions: GO!

 

[Smiles and Cries]

So...Wii WaraWara... Opinions: GO!

I think you got the name wrong. IMO

 

[Smurfman256]

I think you got the name wrong. IMO

Correction: WaraWara Plaza.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Correction: WaraWara Plaza.

what about it? Created by the Director of Animal Crossing, what else would I want?

that thing is Awesome. Wonder how many games will fit on there though.

If I see the real Reggie and Iwata on my screen I will scream like a fangirl!

 

[JordanN]

It does not use MSAA - this much is apparent in screenshots. But it does motion blur (accumulation) and DOF, and most importantly, never keeps a frame still for the observer to notice the absence of AA.


When was last time you played SSD? Aside from particles SSD definitely does not look more complex.

Stardust is flat and features lower res textures. I'm not even sure why the two get compared.

 

[kinggroin]

Does the Wii let you do this? If not, 99.9% likely the Wii U won't either.

You don't see the folly in that logic?

 

[F#A#Oo]

This game appears to be using no AA, or some selective MSAA in 720p, so yeah, the IQ is not the best.

Not to say that this looks bad, far from it IMO, but the closest I can compare this with visually and thematically is SSDHD on PS3, and that is running in full 1080p, 60FPS (also with no AA, or with 4xMSAA in 720p) while looking a lot more complex and busy that this.

True lies and false propaganda!

 

[AndTAR]

I find it interesting that they seem to have chosen a "When you suspend a game, you'll be stuck here"-feel for the Home Menu.

Of course, it has buttons providing access to OS-level apps, but it still feels weird that it doesn't show you the main menu, with application icons visible + rearrangable, when this is actually something the 3DS offers.

 

[AzaK]

OK, so there are Wii U's in the "wild". Someone send it to iSuppli or DF, or crack one open themselves and scan the chips - STAT!



On a Plaza note, what's it going to look like when you have 40 games there?

 

[AndTAR]

On a Plaza note, what's it going to look like when you have 40 games there?

I have a feeling the new circle formation of icons could be a constant amount, so the oldest games get replaced by the newest, or something like that.

Liked the old pattern better, but I guess the circle keeps everything in sight at all times. Perhaps it'll be customizable in settings.

 

[AzaK]

I have a feeling the new circle formation of icons could be a constant amount, so the oldest games get replaced by the newest, or something like that.

Liked the old pattern better, but I guess the circle keeps everything in sight at all times. Perhaps it'll be customizable in settings.

Then I wonder how we'll get access to the old ones? Hopefully they will offer a list view for quick selection of any of the plaza locations.

 

[KojiKnight]

Then I wonder how we'll get access to the old ones? Hopefully they will offer a list view for quick selection of any of the plaza locations.

The way I understand it, this is supposed to be what's "trending" (like on the first page of twitter). You can always pull up individual games to see what someone is talking about in them, even if it's a really old game.

 

[wsippel]

It gets more and more abstract, but several months ago, I posted that a certain middleware dev reached 360-levels of performance on Wii U. Another update brought further optimizations. Then, the next big update increased the performance by several hundred(!) percent. And a few days ago, there was another round of Wii U specific optimizations significant enough to be mentioned in the changelog. "Enhanced Broadway"? Really?

 

[anchorman128]

It gets more and more abstract, but several months ago, I posted that a certain middleware dev reached 360-levels of performance on Wii U. Another update brought further optimizations. Then, the next big update increased the performance by several hundred(!) percent. And a few days ago, there was another round of Wii U specific optimizations significant enough to be mentioned in the changelog. "Enhanced Broadway"? Really?

I know you are trying to be as helpful as possible and I am going to try to help you out. But would you say this most recent round of optimizations gave enhancements similar to the first, or the latter, more famous optimization?

As in will improvements be slight or "several hundred(!) percent" again?

 

[wsippel]

I know you are trying to be as helpful as possible and I am going to try to help you out. But would you say this most recent round of optimizations gave enhancements similar to the first, or the latter, more famous optimization?

As in will improvements be slight or "several hundred(!) percent" again?

Latest round probably wasn't huge or anything - just big enough to be worth a mention. But that thing isn't remotely as weak as some people tend to believe, and it definitely isn't three Broadways duct taped together.

Wii U probably doesn't compare when it comes to predictable floating point math, but it seems to run circles around 360 when it comes to unpredictable code.

 

[Saint Gregory]

The way I understand it, this is supposed to be what's "trending" (like on the first page of twitter). You can always pull up individual games to see what someone is talking about in them, even if it's a really old game.

So it won't be limited to the games that you own? That would be awesome if true. No more missing out on hidden gems for the general populace.

 

[Apophis2036]

Is Wsippel a developer ?.

If so that pretty huge and fantastic news !, people judging the console on Nintendo Land and NSMB U really are in for a culture shock when Nintendo show off the first big budget, triple A exclusive, built from the ground up game for WiiU.

I think Nintendo need to show at least one of these games off in early 2013 though and not wait until E3 as they will be competing with a slew of PS4 / 720 tech demos and exclusives.

They of course need to keep the really big IP's like 3D Mario, Zelda, Metroid and Smash Bros for E3 but i would love to see Starfox or Retro's game at a Jan or Feb Nintendo Direct to really show off what the system can do.

 

[Apophis2036]

Then I wonder how we'll get access to the old ones? Hopefully they will offer a list view for quick selection of any of the plaza locations.

I think the system will either know what games you have played or you will be able to choose a list of say 10 games to put on your main Plazza screen.

Nintendo won't want young kids seeing people talking about the likes of ZombiU or Blops 2 on their main screen, if it was based on trending then kids and casuals would rarely see their favorite games being discussed, it will be tailored to the user 100% imo.

 

[EatChildren]

It gets more and more abstract, but several months ago, I posted that a certain middleware dev reached 360-levels of performance on Wii U. Another update brought further optimizations. Then, the next big update increased the performance by several hundred(!) percent. And a few days ago, there was another round of Wii U specific optimizations significant enough to be mentioned in the changelog. "Enhanced Broadway"? Really?

Yes, really.

 

[Man God]

Old cores get miniaturized and juiced up all the time.

 

[roddur]

Yes, really.

somehow i knew your answer is going to be something like this

 

[chertipros]

what about it? Created by the Director of Animal Crossing, what else would I want?

that thing is Awesome. Wonder how many games will fit on there though.

If I see the real Reggie and Iwata on my screen I will scream like a fangirl!

HaHa in that Pic i can see reggie, Iwata, Koizumi, Tezuka, Eguichi and what seems to be NOE iwata. The gangs all there! Cept miyamoto EDIT: I see aonuma's mii too

 

[Thraktor]

Is Wsippel a developer ?

No, but he researches his posts well, and isn't prone to hyperbole.

 

[ShadowFox08]

So... Any estimate date to when we'll get specs for the Wii U?

Some people are sure to get it early before the Nov 18 launch in NA.

 

[KageMaru]

So... Any estimate date to when we'll get specs for the Wii U?

Some people are sure to get it early before the Nov 18 launch in NA.

I wouldn't expect any more than they already revealed for the system TBH. They have nothing to gain by posting the full specs.

 

[lwilliams3]

So... Any estimate date to when we'll get specs for the Wii U?

Some people are sure to get it early before the Nov 18 launch in NA.

We will probably get a little more info about the system once someone cracks it open and examine the individual pieces on the motherboard.

 

[antonz]

Just wanted to mention. Haven't spoken to them about it yet but the source of all the 3DS teardowns from way back in China has now gotten their hands on a Wii U. Might see some stuff soon

 

[Duckhuntdog]

No, but he researches his posts well, and isn't prone to hyperbole.

Not according to the people in the PS4 thread. *I side with Wsipple btw*

 

[KageMaru]

Not according to the people in the PS4 thread. *I side with Wsipple btw*

Some of the people in those PS4 threads aren't the type I would take serious when discussing tech.

 

[Vagabundo]

So an update needed for Wii BC. The Wii Emu wasn't ready for the first run of WiiUs.

Confirms that they could update it at some point with new features.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I would love for them to release a (USB?) peripheral that allowed GC backwards compatability. Like it would be a USB plugin with GC controller and mem card ports.

 

[disap.ed]

I would love for them to release a (USB?) peripheral that allowed GC backwards compatability. Like it would be a USB plugin with GC controller and mem card ports.

The disk drive probably doesn't work with the smaller GC disks (I really don't know though).

 

[NBtoaster]

I would love for them to release a (USB?) peripheral that allowed GC backwards compatability. Like it would be a USB plugin with GC controller and mem card ports.

You don't need that for BC. Just have the Wii U controller emeulate the GC controller, and virtual memory cards.