Support NeoGAF

[I Stalk Alone]

I would love for them to release a (USB?) peripheral that allowed GC backwards compatability. Like it would be a USB plugin with GC controller and mem card ports.

What about n64 carts or SNES carts maybe NES carts? gamecube is a decade ago and it has had compatibility with wii already. This is why the virtual console was made, other consoles aren't doing it so why should they spend money for the very few who might get benefit from it when you can just get the game in digital format for a cheap price. Yes you have to pay again but better than making everyone pay for ports and connectors upfront that make the system bigger and bring the price of the console up for everyone when hardly any will use it compared to the current generation wii games which already will have full support on wii u. A decade supports is good enough.

The disk drive probably doesn't work with the smaller GC disks (I really don't know though).

They could probably support it with a firmware update but there is no point for reasons above.

 

[Eusis]

HaHa in that Pic i can see reggie, Iwata, Koizumi, Tezuka, Eguichi and what seems to be NOE iwata. The gangs all there! Cept miyamoto EDIT: I see aonuma's mii too

Could Miyamoto be the one in red facing away from the "camera"? That's what I'm suspecting.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

What about n64 carts or SNES carts maybe NES carts?

It's got Wii Compatability, which means it has GC compatability by extension as long as you can add the physical ports (or emulate it, but I'd rather be able to use my controllers). I'm not calling for its inclusion in the console for the very reasons you've mentioned - there's not much gained. But it would be a neat peripheral.

 

[Eusis]

It's got Wii Compatability, which means it has GC compatability by extension as long as you can add the physical ports (or emulate it, but I'd rather be able to use my controllers). I'm not calling for its inclusion in the console for the very reasons you've mentioned - there's not much gained. But it would be a neat peripheral.

Yeah, while I imagine you probably COULD do emulation similar to the PS3 with PS1 games with NES/SNES/N64 games I imagine getting the GC to work is cheaper and easier. Then again, the drive probably needed to be able to accommodate the smaller discs, so that might actually be harder afterall. Such a peripheral may well be more useful for Smash Brothers!

 

[kami_sama]

If there is any type of BC with the GC, I think it will be virtual. I don't think you will be able to put a GC disk in the system.

 

[neoanarch]

If there is any type of BC with the GC, I think it will be virtual. I don't think you will be able to put a GC disk in the system.

No on the BC for GC titles. That has been confirmed. GC VC titles are our only hope.

 

[FyreWulff]

It'll turn out better anyway.

- Everyone with a Wii, which plenty of the GC-compat versions still in the retail channel, can play their GC games on that.

- The GC games that show up on Wii U GCVC will drop the prices of rarer titles once they come out. See also: Tales of Vesperia for 360's Games on Demand (sold at 20$) bringing prices for the game back to reality. So it'll benefit those seeking the physical copies out there for their Wii.

 

[Stulaw]

So it won't be limited to the games that you own? That would be awesome if true. No more missing out on hidden gems for the general populace.

That was confirmed in the Pre-E3 video

 

[Donnie]

Yes, really.

You have real details on the chip then? Or all based on the summary on that dev site referenced in the OP?

 

[wsippel]

Yes, really.

If ripping out and replacing everything still counts as "enhancement" I guess...

Nintendo might call it "enhanced Broadway", and it's certainly fully binary compatible (Broadway has several unique extensions, and Espresso obviously needs to have those as well), but I don't believe the chip is actually the same. I think it only has a fully compatible frontend.

Basically the exact opposite of POWER7/ z9. Those are technically "completely different" chips, different architectures, different endianness - but the chips are actually pretty much the same.

 

[Graphics Horse]

If ripping out and replacing everything still counts as "enhancement" I guess...

Nintendo might call it "enhanced Broadway", and it's certainly fully binary compatible (Broadway has several unique extensions, and Espresso obviously needs to have those as well), but I don't believe the chip is actually the same. I think it only has a fully compatible frontend.

Basically the exact opposite of POWER7/ z9. Those are technically "completely different" chips, different architectures, different endianness - but the chips are actually pretty much the same.

But what's actually wrong with it being 3 Broadway cores with more cache or whatever? Bearing in mind there's less of a focus on floating point performance.
Is the middleware you speak of just ignoring the GPGPU side or something?

 

[EatChildren]

You have real details on the chip then? Or all based on the summary on that dev site referenced in the OP?

If ripping out and replacing everything still counts as "enhancement" I guess...

Nintendo might call it "enhanced Broadway", and it's certainly fully binary compatible (Broadway has several unique extensions, and Espresso obviously needs to have those as well), but I don't believe the chip is actually the same. I think it only has a fully compatible frontend.

Basically the exact opposite of POWER7/ z9. Those are technically "completely different" chips, different architectures, different endianness - but the chips are actually pretty much the same.

I'm sure that "enhanced Broadway" is so vague and broad (PUN INTENDED) that it doesn't grant a legitimate insight into the intricate components and functionality of the CPU. But that's what it says on the dev site, or said. Or at least I have no reason to believe the claims of such thing are inaccurate.

You may disagree with the assertion that it is enhanced Broadway, as you did when this thread was first created. But that's what is (or was) written, by Nintendo, and I think that warrants some thought rather than blanket dismissal.

 

[lwilliams3]

It gets more and more abstract, but several months ago, I posted that a certain middleware dev reached 360-levels of performance on Wii U. Another update brought further optimizations. Then, the next big update increased the performance by several hundred(!) percent. And a few days ago, there was another round of Wii U specific optimizations significant enough to be mentioned in the changelog. "Enhanced Broadway"? Really?

Thanks for the update, wsippel. I hope that other companies are having similar progress with the system.

 

[wsippel]

I'm sure that "enhanced Broadway" is so vague and broad (PUN INTENDED) that it doesn't grant a legitimate insight into the intricate components and functionality of the CPU. But that's what it says on the dev site, or said. Or at least I have no reason to believe the claims of such thing are inaccurate.

You may disagree with the assertion that it is enhanced Broadway, as you did when this thread was first created. But that's what is (or was) written, by Nintendo, and I think that warrants some thought rather than blanket dismissal.

I absolutely believe that Nintendo called it that, for obvious reasons, but I try to point out that it doesn't really mean what some people believe - that the system uses a 2000 CPU. The 750 line was discontinued ages ago, was never built in 45nm, never supported SMP, and obviously never supported eDRAM cache. I think the CPU is some weird amalgamation of the 470S and A2, with a Broadway compatible frontend and instruction set.

 

[lwilliams3]

But what's actually wrong with it being 3 Broadway cores with more cache or whatever? Bearing in mind there's less of a focus on floating point performance.
Is the middleware you speak of just ignoring the GPGPU side or something?

I believe the middleware he is talking about is for sound and wouldn't (and shouldn't) use the GPU at all.

I'm sure that "enhanced Broadway" is so vague and broad (PUN INTENDED) that it doesn't grant a legitimate insight into the intricate components and functionality of the CPU. But that's what it says on the dev site, or said. Or at least I have no reason to believe the claims of such thing are inaccurate.
The issue is that some people have been taking that statement literally. I do agree with your conclusion.

You may disagree with the assertion that it is enhanced Broadway, as you did when this thread was first created. But that's what is (or was) written, by Nintendo, and I think that warrants some thought rather than blanket dismissal.

I agree with your points. Wsippel was most likely stating that question to people that were taking the "enchanted broadway" spec too literally. There has even been insiders that phrased it as if it was three higher-clocked roadways stuck together.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Some of the people in those PS4 threads aren't the type I would take serious when discussing tech.

That's for damn sure, some pie in the sky shit going on there.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

It gets more and more abstract, but several months ago, I posted that a certain middleware dev reached 360-levels of performance on Wii U. Another update brought further optimizations. Then, the next big update increased the performance by several hundred(!) percent. And a few days ago, there was another round of Wii U specific optimizations significant enough to be mentioned in the changelog. "Enhanced Broadway"? Really?

really enjoy your researched info wsippel, thank you

HaHa in that Pic i can see reggie, Iwata, Koizumi, Tezuka, Eguichi and what seems to be NOE iwata. The gangs all there! Cept miyamoto EDIT: I see aonuma's mii too

dude, I could not tell half of these people... Good Eye! wonder if they will go into hiding when MiiVerse is out

 

[wsippel]

really enjoy your researched info wsippel, thank you

My pleasure. I should clarify, however, that this is for a very specific workload, and does not necessarily mean the CPU runs circles around Xenon in general. In fact, it most certainly doesn't. I don't believe for a second that it comes close when it comes to raw floating point performance.

 

[blu]

Hey, look, actual speculations! : )

So how many of you think that one of the PPC cores will be entirely reserved for the OS?

 

[frankie_baby]

Hey, look, actual speculations! : )

So how many of you think that one of the PPC cores will be entirely reserved for the OS?

I thought the os was using one of the arm cores

 

[ozfunghi]

Yes, really.

sigh

 

[wsippel]

Hey, look, actual speculations! : )

So how many of you think that one of the PPC cores will be entirely reserved for the OS?

Pretty sure the whole OS, and probably even Miiverse, the browser and TVii, are running on the ARM coprocessor.

 

[KojiKnight]

are people still taking "enhanced broadway" to mean it's just the broadway?


By the same logic of thinking the expresso is just a GCN processor with more cores and a higher clock, you could say that the latest Intel chip is "an enhanced 386"... In fact that's more or less what x86-64 means

 

[Smiles and Cries]

My pleasure. I should clarify, however, that this is for a very specific workload, and does not necessarily mean the CPU runs circles around Xenon in general. In fact, it most certainly doesn't. I don't believe for a second that it comes close when it comes to raw floating point performance.

nah I understand, was not thanking you for the good news just the effort you put in... never really cared much about the specs vs other platforms. I know this is Nintendo, just want to see that we have enough kick in the hardware for some really sweet games.

Pretty sure the whole OS, and probably even Miiverse, the browser and TVii, are running on the ARM coprocessor.

this makes the CPU issue a little easier to manage, any chance of more details at launch?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Hey, look, actual speculations! : )

So how many of you think that one of the PPC cores will be entirely reserved for the OS?

I think 2 cores are reserved for the OS.

 

[XtremeXpider]

I think 2 cores are reserved for the OS.

I guess you are kidding...

 

[Log4Girlz]

I guess you are kidding...

I'm pretty sure the emoticon on the internet means you are being hyper serious. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[XtremeXpider]

I'm pretty sure the emoticon on the internet means you are being hyper serious. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The emoticon can mean a lot of things xD

 

[Fourth Storm]

Pretty sure the whole OS, and probably even Miiverse, the browser and TVii, are running on the ARM coprocessor.

Which leads me to this question. What's going on with the 2 MB cache on Espresso core 1? And why not core 0?

 

[Log4Girlz]

The emoticon can mean a lot of things xD

 

[wsippel]

this makes the CPU issue a little easier to manage, any chance of more details at launch?

They have to release the source code for some of the components (like WebKit). It might be possible to tell looking through that code.

 

[H_Prestige]

You don't need that for BC. Just have the Wii U controller emeulate the GC controller, and virtual memory cards.

The problem is the disc drive doesn't read minidiscs. Kind of like the Vita situation with psp BC.

 

[Thraktor]

Hey, look, actual speculations! : )

So how many of you think that one of the PPC cores will be entirely reserved for the OS?

What would the OS be doing that would require a full ~2GHz Broadway+ core during gameplay? While you're using the Wii U's browser, yes, but at that point whatever game you were playing is idle, anyway. Besides, the dual-core ARM is probably there to handle most of the low-level OS stuff.

 

[JordanN]

How viable is a CPU set-up made up of many different cores?

I remember BgAssassin first proposed that idea and it went like this:
One core was Broadway, one was a Power7 and the other was a PowerPC 470.

 

[anothercreativename]

It gets more and more abstract, but several months ago, I posted that a certain middleware dev reached 360-levels of performance on Wii U. Another update brought further optimizations. Then, the next big update increased the performance by several hundred(!) percent. And a few days ago, there was another round of Wii U specific optimizations significant enough to be mentioned in the changelog. "Enhanced Broadway"? Really?

Wait, so you are talking about the processor right? Not necessarily graphical abilities? In other words, you aren't saying that your sources were able to reach a graphical performance of several hundred percent, compared to the 360, after an update?

 

[frankie_baby]

They have to release the source code for some of the components (like WebKit). It might be possible to tell looking through that code.

Ah yeah forgot about that, is there any timescale Nintendo has to release the code by?

 

[XtremeXpider]

How viable is a CPU set-up made up of many different cores?

I remember BgAssassin first proposed that idea and it went like this:
One core was Broadway, one was a Power7 and the other was a PowerPC 470.

I guess this is really hard to see, but we have Cell, a PowerPC core and 8 SPUs.

 

[Thraktor]

Which leads me to this question. What's going on with the 2 MB cache on Espresso core 1? And why not core 0?

I can still only think of three reasons why you'd have one core having the sort of data requirements that would necessitate an asymmetrical cache:

1. Higher clock speed than other cores (in this case 4x higher)
2. Greater degree of mutlithreadedness (in this case 4 threads vs. 1)
3. Enhanced SIMD functionality

I can't see a possible justification for having three otherwise identical cores running at vastly different clock-speeds, so I feel we can rule out 1. Option 2 is possible, but I don't understand why they'd go with two single-threaded and one four-threaded cores vs. just having three symmetric dual-threaded cores. Option 3 seems like the simplest explanation: the cores are effectively identical, but only one of them has an AltiVec unit (heavily customised VSX most likely). It also makes sense from a design standpoint, as most SIMD functionality will be offloaded to the GPU, negating the need for dedicating a large amount of CPU silicon to SIMD units.

There's also the possibility that it's a combination of the three reasons. For example (and this is purely hypothetical) you could pair two Broadway cores with one A2 core. The A2 core is four-way multithreaded, and has what IBM call a Quad FPU, which can either perform four scalar calculations simultaneously, or one vector (SIMD) calculation. The three cores could even run at different clock speeds. The problem with this kind of scenario (which I've admittedly taken somewhat to the extreme) is that it could get pretty messy to code for, and doesn't really offer any particular advantages over a more homogenous architecture.

 

[japtor]

Pretty sure the whole OS, and probably even Miiverse, the browser and TVii, are running on the ARM coprocessor.

That'd be slightly disappointing if the browser is only for the ARM cores considering the browser can access gamepad controls, it'd be nice to have extra CPU power for more complex stuff.

How viable is a CPU set-up made up of many different cores?

I remember BgAssassin first proposed that idea and it went like this:
One core was Broadway, one was a Power7 and the other was a PowerPC 470.

Cell already does it as mentioned, I think Tegra 3 or something has a 4+1 setup with the extra core being for low power use, and ARM has something similar in the works with a 2+2 configuration with high and low power cores.

I vaguely recall what you're referring to, I think it was 2+1 rather than all three being different, I forget what the theory was beyond that though.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I can still only think of three reasons why you'd have one core having the sort of data requirements that would necessitate an asymmetrical cache:

1. Higher clock speed than other cores (in this case 4x higher)
2. Greater degree of mutlithreadedness (in this case 4 threads vs. 1)
3. Enhanced SIMD functionality

I can't see a possible justification for having three otherwise identical cores running at vastly different clock-speeds, so I feel we can rule out 1. Option 2 is possible, but I don't understand why they'd go with two single-threaded and one four-threaded cores vs. just having three symmetric dual-threaded cores. Option 3 seems like the simplest explanation: the cores are effectively identical, but only one of them has an AltiVec unit (heavily customised VSX most likely). It also makes sense from a design standpoint, as most SIMD functionality will be offloaded to the GPU, negating the need for dedicating a large amount of CPU silicon to SIMD units.

There's also the possibility that it's a combination of the three reasons. For example (and this is purely hypothetical) you could pair two Broadway cores with one A2 core. The A2 core is four-way multithreaded, and has what IBM call a Quad FPU, which can either perform four scalar calculations simultaneously, or one vector (SIMD) calculation. The three cores could even run at different clock speeds. The problem with this kind of scenario (which I've admittedly taken somewhat to the extreme) is that it could get pretty messy to code for, and doesn't really offer any particular advantages over a more homogenous architecture.

Great analysis. I've mused over options 2 and 3 previously and came to the same conclusion as yourself pretty much.: option 3 sounds most likely even though we haven't heard about any VMX/VSX from devs. I admittedly don't know much about game code, but from some of the basic breakdowns I read, it just might make sense for only one core to have some type of AltiVec unit for Nintendo's purposes. Check out this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/758390/xbox-360-vs-ps3-a-processor-comparison/90#post_9027534

Using that diagram as a point of reference, Espresso's Core 0 would run synchronization routines. Core 1 would run graphics/physics. Core 2 would run AI. Sound is offloaded to the DSP or shares Core 0 and netcode is nonexistent (j/k). Thus, AI and graphics get the benefits of having their own cores. As far as I know, only graphics and physics really benefit from high floating point performance, so having AltiVec on one core might be enough to suit their needs.

 

[onQ123]

So an update needed for Wii BC. The Wii Emu wasn't ready for the first run of WiiUs.

Confirms that they could update it at some point with new features.

New Thread Coming!

'The Wii U can be updated with new features'

 

[frankie_baby]

New Thread Coming!

'The Wii U can be updated with new features'

Funilly enough there's been a thread on back computability needing an update

 

[Apophis2036]

Some of the people in those PS4 threads aren't the type I would take serious when discussing tech.

What are the fantasy land GPU specs up to now for PS4, 5TF's ? .

 

[LeleSocho]

What are the fantasy land GPU specs up to now for PS4, 5TF's ? .

i see someone that wants at least a 3 teraflop/s gpu or he would be very disappointed

 

[Apophis2036]

i see someone that wants at least a 3 teraflop/s gpu or he would be very disappointed

Lol, just buy a gaming PC...

On Topic, i want a WiiU CPU clock speed and a GPU FLOP count NOW !!! .

8 days from launch and still no concrete info on the specs, is this normal ?.

 

[frankie_baby]

Lol, just buy a gaming PC...

On Topic, i want a WiiU CPU clock speed and a GPU FLOP count NOW !!! .

8 days from launch and still no concrete info on the specs, is this normal ?.

We've got far more than we had before the wii or 3ds launch

 

[wsippel]

That'd be slightly disappointing if the browser is only for the ARM cores considering the browser can access gamepad controls, it'd be nice to have extra CPU power for more complex stuff.

I'm simply guessing. But it would be nearly impossible to play, say, Dragon Quest X and access the browser otherwise - or Miiverse, as that seems browser based as well. Because you can't freeze online games that easily. It's also possible that the home button becomes inactive or certain features (like the browser) won't be available when playing online games.

 

[Thraktor]

Great analysis. I've mused over options 2 and 3 previously and came to the same conclusion as yourself pretty much.: option 3 sounds most likely even though we haven't heard about any VMX/VSX from devs. I admittedly don't know much about game code, but from some of the basic breakdowns I read, it just might make sense for only one core to have some type of AltiVec unit for Nintendo's purposes. Check out this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/758390/xbox-360-vs-ps3-a-processor-comparison/90#post_9027534

Using that diagram as a point of reference, Espresso's Core 0 would run synchronization routines. Core 1 would run graphics/physics. Core 2 would run AI. Sound is offloaded to the DSP or shares Core 0 and netcode is nonexistent (j/k). Thus, AI and graphics get the benefits of having their own cores. As far as I know, only graphics and physics really benefit from high floating point performance, so having AltiVec on one core might be enough to suit their needs.

Well I'm thinking the Wii U (along with the PS4 and XBox3 for that matter) is designed to offload most of its vector grunt work (ie physics) to the GPU, which immediately reduces the need for a full SIMD unit in each core.

The interesting thing I realised, though, after writing about the A2 core is that Gekko/Broadway actually have a similar sort of multi-function FPU, in that it can operate on either 64bit scalars, or a 2*32bit SIMD unit called a paired single. Given that this was a customisation designed just for Nintendo, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they've got a custom designed "Dual FPU", as it were, that could handle either two 64bit scalar operations or one 4*32bit vector, sort of like a slimmed down, dual-threaded, out-of-order version of the A2 Quad FPU.

I seem to remember IdeaMan mentioning a good while ago that he heard something about SIMD instructions, maybe he'll be able to shed some light.

 

[Smurfman256]

Well I'm thinking the Wii U (along with the PS4 and XBox3 for that matter) is designed to offload most of its vector grunt work (ie physics) to the GPU, which immediately reduces the need for a full SIMD unit in each core.

The interesting thing I realised, though, after writing about the A2 core is that Gekko/Broadway actually have a similar sort of multi-function FPU, in that it can operate on either 64bit scalars, or a 2*32bit SIMD unit called a paired single. Given that this was a customisation designed just for Nintendo, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they've got a custom designed "Dual FPU", as it were, that could handle either two 64bit scalar operations or one 4*32bit vector, sort of like a slimmed down, dual-threaded, out-of-order version of the A2 Quad FPU.

I seem to remember IdeaMan mentioning a good while ago that he heard something about SIMD instructions, maybe he'll be able to shed some light.

Damn, where's the IdeaMan signal when you need it?

 

[frankie_baby]

I'm simply guessing. But it would be nearly impossible to play, say, Dragon Quest X and access the browser otherwise - or Miiverse, as that seems browser based as well. Because you can't freeze online games that easily. It's also possible that the home button becomes inactive or certain features (like the browser) won't be available when playing online games.

Its a pretty fair assumption that the browser and home menu won't work when playing online