demigod
Member
So you think they'll wait like MS did with the Xbox One and release it 8 years later? Riiiiight. You might want to look at the previous page on when they released each generation before you call someone delusional.
Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
So you think they'll wait like MS did with the Xbox One and release it 8 years later? Riiiiight. You might want to look at the previous page on when they released each generation before you call someone delusional.
Ar¢tos
Member
Those things are probably the call of big man sony, not just the gaming division. With Sony releasing their stand-alone 4k blu-ray player, most likely "Sony" didn't allow the gaming division to add it to the ps4 pro.
MilkyJoe
Member
You live in your world, I'll live in reality.
Koala Driving a Ferrari
Member
I don't follow that logic. It was just a cost saving measure (to remove the 4k bluray drive) and a push towards their digitial media distribution service. Which was ill informed as they were targeting a market that wants a premium PS4, so it should have had premium features (4k bluray, decent cooling, small form factor etc etc) and not be the half-way measure, slow-selling, noisy device that it became. It was a significant enough reason for me to not upgrade to a PS4 Pro. I'm still waiting for the real deal as my PS4 is my preferred platform this gen (overall). It's odd that Sony were so on form at the start of this gen and they seem to be meandering now. It doesn't instill me with confidence that the PS5 will target me as a consumer.
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Dee Dah Dave
Member
It's a stupid idea. Next gen needs 7nm tech and that probably isn't available next year for a cheap console. Certainly not available right now in a dev kit.
And why do it anyway when PS4 has plenty of life left in it, and they also made a Pro version. They did this to help extend the generation, not cut it short.
People will happily buy Last of us 2, GTA6, COD 9000 etc on PS4 for a good few years yet.
And why do it anyway when PS4 has plenty of life left in it, and they also made a Pro version. They did this to help extend the generation, not cut it short.
People will happily buy Last of us 2, GTA6, COD 9000 etc on PS4 for a good few years yet.
Chozofication_
Banned
Xbox had the most processing power but it was also the worst in terms of memory bandwidth and efficiency. Gc can be better depending on what's being done.
Ps2 had the greatest bandwidth for particles and shadows despite having the weakest processor.
Chozofication_
Banned
Xbox one x has a 384 bit bus so why not?
eso76
Member
Games take long to make these days. I don't know, but giving devs some piece of hardware that approaches the expected specs of their next console launching in 2+ years, albeit with different components which are available now, doesn't sound too far fetched and is probably the sensible thing to do.
Aman-L
Neo Member
The thing is: MS totally abandoned this generation to focus on the next one. Between MS and Sony it will be a good old western duel : Who will shoot first ? Sony don't have the full control of the release date of the next PS, just like MS with their next XBox.
About the first dev kit right now for the PS5, it's really probable because dev need time to have cool demo to show during the announcement of the PS5.
But the release date of the PS5 is probably more around 2020 and they will announce it in 2019. [Guess exercise]
About the first dev kit right now for the PS5, it's really probable because dev need time to have cool demo to show during the announcement of the PS5.
But the release date of the PS5 is probably more around 2020 and they will announce it in 2019. [Guess exercise]
So tell me why a PS5 that's 2X the Xbox One X would fail in 2019 but a Xbox Two with maybe 40% more power than the PS5 will be a success in 2020?
HeisenbergFX4
Member
I just don't see a PS5 with 2x the power of the current X coming in 2019 and being console priced.
Dr. Claus
Banned
Of course not because that is just not possible unless Sony somehow gets an insane deal on the hardware (which they will not). I can see this happening in '20 or '21. Not a chance that it will release in '19.
MilkyJoe
Member
I don't get it? Is it because X is the more powerful? have a 2019 release then moan in 2 years when it's a piece of crap?
LittleAngryDog
Banned
Unfortunately Final Fantasy 7 Remake is being developed by a parallel studio and using Unreal Engine 4. If it was being done by Square Enix and using the Luminous Engine maybe it could reach the graphic level of Final Fantasy Advent Children, movie.
Or is this graphic level only possible on PS5?
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thelastword
Banned
The PS5 will be more than 2x the power of the X, we are all going on raw TF count, but that is only part of the equation. I think results is a more important metric for consoles. You pit a jaguar CPU'd system from 2013 + a polaris GPU at 14nm and you put it against a 16 core Zen2 CPU + a Navi GPU (24-32TF infinity fabric multi-GPU), both at 7nm and you have a system that will absolutely annihilate an XBONEX that is struggling to keep locked framerates in it's dynamic resolution games in 2020.
If we take a more modest approach. Say we take a Vega 64 which hits 7nm later this year, we are talking higher clocks + higher HBM power, so what was a 12.66TF GPU can be upshot to 15-18TF at 7nm easily, even more if we add some CU's....Couple that GPU with a low powered Zen+ CPU with 6 cores 12 threads and most of your multiplats are going to run at 60fps with much higher settings than an XBONEX ever could. This option will also wipe the floor with XBONEX in 2019...as a more immediate option...
With 7nm, more of the compute capabilities of the Vega GPU is going to be utilized, a shoot for more Vulkan titles will ensure even more performance coming out from the Vega architecture where it is woefully under-utlized atm. So picture what RAD, Naughty, GG, Santa Monica and even R.I.P Evo did with a 1.84TF GPU with a jaguar this gen, We all know they can't start development with the PRO ground up, but then give these guys a proper CPU and a vulkan based GPU with 18TF of power in 2019, then games like Driveclub, Zero Dawn, 1886, UC4/LL and the upcoming GOW will look like PONG. Even now, with these mid gen consoles in play, we have not seen better looking games across the consoles. So imagine these guys going from 1.84TF to 18TF only this time with a worthy CPU to push physics and to render higher LOD with some Navi features on a custom SOC. Yeah......that's a shudder moment for you......and such a console is possible in November 2019....
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
I don't know what is so unbelievable?
Pro was 2.3x jump with slight clock increases using the same tech/architecture in 3 years with just a node shrink. 1X a 4x increase in 4 years with big bumps in clock speed and trick cooling.
PS5 being 2x X1 in 2 years with a node shrink, much higher clocks, a much better CPU and all new GPU? What is so fantastical about that?
Edit: What thelastword says too.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
It can be built for next year sure but will it be console priced is the question?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
If Sony and AMD want/need it to be then yes.
demigod
Member
With those specs thelastword is talking about? $499. My guess is Sony will price their next one at $449.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Sorry I misread that part and thought he meant 12.66TF. No way is next-gen 15+ TF even in 2021!
Dr. Claus
Banned
In 2 years, it will be 2020. As I stated previously, I can believe that it will release in 2020. I do not believe that it will release in 2019. At least at an affordable price point, unless Sony plans on selling for a rather hefty loss on each console.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Well PS5 discussions have been going on since July last year and November/December 2019 (which I think is possible) is near as dammit 2 years. 2020 is only one month from this!
I'm not even sure of what you're getting at.
Dr. Claus
Banned
Pardon, I assumed you were referring from 2 years from today, which would be March of 2020. I didn't understand that you were referring to last year in part of the "two year" discussion. Sorry!
llien
Banned
There is no hardware on the market that could dish it out with reasonable power consumption, let alone price.
You basically ask for Zen (65-95W) + Vega 64 (350W) combo.
On top of it, PS4 was released in 2013 with something like R9 270.
Back then we had 280X and 290(x).
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
No need to say sorry. I just think it reasonable for next-gen to launch in Nov/Dec 2019 which is 21 months versus 24 months. Negligible! (Nov) 2020 is also possible of course. Not hearing anything after GDC next week and a couple of other things will sway me to thinking 2020 is more likely.
demigod
Member
Just because the PS4 was way underpowered, does not mean the same can be said about the PS5. FYI, the Pro was released same year as RX480.
thelastword
Banned
I don't think we should focus on the current PC GPU market to analyze the pricepoint of the upcoming consoles. We all know the current prices are way off cliff and somewhat beffudles a clear outlook on what prices Sony are working with AMD. Let's be clear, a retail APU from AMD is $99 atm with zen + 8CU's (yeah that's retail). I'm sure Sony can muster a 12 thread or even 16 thread Zen CPU (only) at a steal, but with a GPU on the SOC they can definitely cut a nice deal and we're still talking a ways away from now.....a November 2019 launch (which is almost 2020) as it is...By then node shrinks, price cuts etc...is surely viable and even then PS5 won't have Zen+ if it launches in 2019, it will have Zen 2, which will be launching it's APU's by then. Millions of PS5's with a 12-16 thread CPU plus Navi GPU/Vega 7nm GPU?.....I think they can work something out price-wise.
Not saying the system will be $299.00 either. I think for a high performing system and beyond launching in late 2019 or with better specs come late 2020....a $499.00 target is a sweetspot in either scenario. Whether Sony eats the lost or not is up to them, but it's important they put the best hardware they can in the system based on what's will be available at that target price to future proof the console.
But the first point, yes the PC situation should not dictate how expensive you think these consoles will be. AMD and NV are working to bring dedicated hardware to miners, so that will be it's own market. I never thought miners needed cards with the aethestics of popular gaming GPU design anyway. I'm sure something more modest could work for these guys and perhaps AMD/NV can work to upshoot mining performance on these upcoming mining cards and do away with parts of the gaming GPU miners don't need. I think the market will normalize a good minute before these consoles launch anyway.......
Funny enough, I was juniored because I made a thread about how NV cards would see an upshot in price and another thread which spoke of better drivers and compute capabilities for Vega cards....Lo and behold, NV cards went up in price and has been that way for a good minute....NV fans blew a gasket in that thread and I'm sure I was reported a tonne I imagine, but it is what it is....So many looked at the Vega launch with it price woes and mocked AMD, but those cards were limited in circulation and availability because HBM is expensive, miners were/are buying all the cards they make and now even that applies to NV coupled with the increased ram prices which has affected them........and of course AMD drivers continue to bring much better performance with their latest drivers for a good minute with some significant improvements recently...
A 7nm Vega card later this year will hit 20 TF easily on the high end.......AMD can opt for 16GB of HBM2 or even GDDR6 there and up the CU count to 72-80-88-96...More CU's with a higher average clockpseed over standard Vega and higher HBM clcoks is easily 20TF territory in late 2018 and early 2019.
In essence, 2000Mhz-2200Mhz clocks when OC'd to 1500-1600 HBM is definitely possible.
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LittleAngryDog
Banned
We've been running games on this level of graphics for quite some time now. Horizon Zero Dawn and Uncharted Lost Legacy have already reached this level.
I remember the Samaritan Tech Demo(Unreal Engine 3), in 2012 that needed 3x GTX 580 and then was optimized to run on a single GTX 680 at 1080p 60fps. This Tech Demo seemed something quite distant from what a console could do. But Batman Arkham Knight, Ryse Son of Rome, The Order 1886, Killzone Shadow Fall and Infamous Second Son have all proven to be able to make that level graphic reality.
Now we've outgrown Samaritan and we've probably run something similar to Infiltrator like Horizon Zero Dawn.
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llien
Banned
RX480 is 2 tiers lower than Vega 64 and even that got into Pro because Sony couldn't jump on VR bandwagon with non-Pro consoles.
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paolo11
Member
Unfortunately Final Fantasy 7 Remake is being developed by a parallel studio and using Unreal Engine 4. If it was being done by Square Enix and using the Luminous Engine maybe it could reach the graphic level of Final Fantasy Advent Children, movie.
Or is this graphic level only possible on PS5?
It's almost AC level in my opinion. Fantastic visuals makes it worth the wait.
demigod
Member
Who cares if its 2 tiers lower than Vega 64? The point was, it was the latest tech AMD had and it came out the same year on the Pro. 2 years from now and 10-12TFlops is not unreasonable. And you don't need a Pro to run VR.
Leak
Member
I'm going to translate something I commented in a spanish forum about what I think Sony could do, so stay tuned for conspiracy theories that actually don't sound crazy.
Xbox made a nice movement with Xbox One X, it's not a movement which will "win the generation", not a movement which brought great joy, but a movement about simultaneous and compatible generations, mixing One with One X and also converging with Windows, in games and platform (the famous UWP). Meanwhile, Sony previously released the PS4 Pro, a better PS4 which is not as powerful as Xbox One X but anyways a competent machine, which is good to remember that still shares CPU with Xbox One X in really close performance.
If Sony is planning PS5, the best we can expect for, lets say, 2020, is a machine about a 50% more powerful than Xbox One X with a presumable price of 500 bucks, and in the meantime Xbox One X has dropped its price to 400 bucks (we can take the example, both for relative power and prices with One, PS4, PS4 Pro and Xbox One X). But... How could Sony sell PS5 in that scenario, having a little 50% extra performance from One X but three years later when PS4 had that advantage being born next to Xbox One, and only having twice the power of PS4 Pro, which also was sold just 4 years before for 400 bucks?
Here's what will happen: Sony announces that PS5 is already in user's homes. PS4 Pro could just mutate to PS5 "Core", and under this name be relaunched at the time they launch the standard PS5 at 500 bucks. This way, users will be celebrating their "free", backwards-compatible PS5s, as well as they have the option to get the most powerful console (the >8TFLOPs PS5), and Sony leaves PS4 to the memory. It's a win-win-win. Win by the price (PS4 Pro/PS5 Core 100 bucks under One X), win by the power (PS5 is more powerful than Xbox One X for 100$ bucks more), and win by the community (tons of joy for PS4 Pro owners, who also are a pre-established base of millions of consoles in the houses).
Just remember my words.
Xbox made a nice movement with Xbox One X, it's not a movement which will "win the generation", not a movement which brought great joy, but a movement about simultaneous and compatible generations, mixing One with One X and also converging with Windows, in games and platform (the famous UWP). Meanwhile, Sony previously released the PS4 Pro, a better PS4 which is not as powerful as Xbox One X but anyways a competent machine, which is good to remember that still shares CPU with Xbox One X in really close performance.
If Sony is planning PS5, the best we can expect for, lets say, 2020, is a machine about a 50% more powerful than Xbox One X with a presumable price of 500 bucks, and in the meantime Xbox One X has dropped its price to 400 bucks (we can take the example, both for relative power and prices with One, PS4, PS4 Pro and Xbox One X). But... How could Sony sell PS5 in that scenario, having a little 50% extra performance from One X but three years later when PS4 had that advantage being born next to Xbox One, and only having twice the power of PS4 Pro, which also was sold just 4 years before for 400 bucks?
Here's what will happen: Sony announces that PS5 is already in user's homes. PS4 Pro could just mutate to PS5 "Core", and under this name be relaunched at the time they launch the standard PS5 at 500 bucks. This way, users will be celebrating their "free", backwards-compatible PS5s, as well as they have the option to get the most powerful console (the >8TFLOPs PS5), and Sony leaves PS4 to the memory. It's a win-win-win. Win by the price (PS4 Pro/PS5 Core 100 bucks under One X), win by the power (PS5 is more powerful than Xbox One X for 100$ bucks more), and win by the community (tons of joy for PS4 Pro owners, who also are a pre-established base of millions of consoles in the houses).
Just remember my words.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
You must know this is far too unrealistic. A $400-$500 console barely 2-3 inches high isn't getting anything close to the above specs. 10-12TF, 16-24GB RAM and 500-700GB BW is more realistic.
I know PS4 was arguably in some ways conservative but in June 2012 (18 months before PS4 launched) AMD released the top HD7970 GHz edition with 4.1TF yet PS4 still ended up with "only" 1.84TF but with customisations.
There are very hard, real and modest limitations for consoles.
demigod
Member
8TFlops at the end of 2019 for $500, are you insane?
LittleAngryDog
Banned
The next generation of consoles will have 12.6 Tflops. It is time for you to conform to this reality. Nothing more than 13 and nothing less than 12.6 which means something around 3x the power of the PS4 PRO GPU (3x 4.2) or 2x the power of the GPU of an Xbox One X.
As for the CPU I kick something around 3.0 or 3.2Ghz. 32GB of RAM is most likely. No less than 24GB because any PC with GTX 1070 nowadays reaches 24GB easily. Now enough of speculating.
Is this enough for a big generational leap? Yes, this is enough to triple the polygonal density of the games. Improve textures, physics, animations, worlds size, artificial intelligence and put Global Illumination on absolutely every game. From the heaviest to the lightest. 4k 30fps in the most beautiful games and 4k 60fps in the most focused games in online multiplayer like Cod, BF, Battlefront, Halo and etc.
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Leak
Member
I really don't know if you say that because you think it is too much power or because it is too much money. Anyways, I said >8TFLOPs, which I don't expect to go beyond 10TFLOPs. They're selling the 4TFLOPs PS4 Pro at 400 bucks today, without 4k blu-ray, without big investments in a better internal design than regular PS4, without the at least 12GB of GDDR5, and in times where the RAM prices are only growing. Additionally, I said 2020, not 2019. The point is, I won't expect PS5 to be much more powerful than One X, unless it goes to 2022 or beyond.
Leak
Member
Maybe, if they sell the consoles at >700$.
LittleAngryDog
Banned
The presentation of the PS5 will take place in early 2020 and the launch will take place in the second half of the year. More precisely November of 2020. Until then the consoles will receive architecture NAVI 7nm and etc. Now stop dreaming about 20Tflops or 3.8Ghz ... None of this ... At least if SONY wants to launch the console for $ 700 as you said. Which is ridiculous and unlikely.
demigod
Member
Please stop with this nonsense. 16GB will be enough. A 1070 GTX only has 8GB. The only reason why PC requires so much RAM is because of the OS and multitask ability.
LittleAngryDog
Banned
I understand the need for computers to use enough memory. But surely the new consoles will be at least 24GB. Or the advancement of the Xbox One from 8GB to 12 would not make the least sense. I believe they will receive around 24GB or at most 32GB. Things have always been this way my friend. When the PS4 was released having 8GB of memory was a thing for few on a PC. PCs that owned 16GB were miraculous. But already reach 32GB without much effort. I may be wrong and I do not want to be arrogant but I keep betting on the 24GB
This is only 2 times more memory than the Xbox One X. If we are speculating a PS5 with 2 times more GPU power we can also speculate 2 times more memory, don't you think?
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LittleAngryDog
Banned
Beautiful textures and a good art direction. But to be equal AC would be necessary more polygons.
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demigod
Member
I understand the need for computers to use enough memory. But surely the new consoles will be at least 24GB. Or the advancement of the Xbox One from 8GB to 12 would not make the least sense. I believe they will receive around 24GB or at most 32GB. Things have always been this way my friend. When the PS4 was released having 8GB of memory was a thing for few on a PC. PCs that owned 16GB were miraculous. But already reach 32GB without much effort. I may be wrong and I do not want to be arrogant but I keep betting on the 24GB
This is only 2 times more memory than the Xbox One X. If we are speculating a PS5 with 2 times more GPU power we can also speculate 2 times more memory, don't you think?
I've had 16GB in since 2008? I now have 32GB in my PC. 32GB is overkill. Gaming computers are still being premade with 8GB. PS4 OS uses what, 3.5GB/4.5GB? Now imagine if it had 16GB and uses 5GB, that leaves 11GB free. There is ZERO reason why they're going to jump to 32GB while adding more to the cost.
LittleAngryDog
Banned
Let's cross your fingers so they add 24GB then. We can not forget that if it is GDDR5x or GDDR6 the memory will be even faster. It is not only a question of quantity of information but also of speed of information. You maybe right about the 16GB GDDR6. But let me feel safer with 24GB.
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Leak
Member
I will try to summarize about why "12.6TFLOPs" (funny number btw) is still dreaming.
January 2012: AMD reaches 28nm (coming from 40nm). The Radeon HD 7970 reaches 3.8TFLOPs at a launch price of 550$.
October 2013: The Radeon R9 290X reaches 5.6TFLOPs at a launch price of 550$. Around this moment, Xbox One and PS4 are released at 400$ (lets for get Kinect) with 1.3 and 1.84 TFLOPs, being PS4 a console with a well tight price.
June 2015: The Radeon Fury X reaches 8.6TFLOPs at a launch price of 650$.
November 2016: PS4 Pro reaches 16nm, and arrives with 4.2TFLOPs at a launch (and still) price of 400$.
August 2017: The Radeon Vega 64 reaches 12.6TFLOPs at a launch price of 500$.
November 2017: Xbox One X arrives with 6TFLOPs at a launch (and still) price of 500$.
It took almost five years for PS4 Pro to reach the 7970 raw power at a reasonable price. This is what you say it is going to happen: In three years PS5 will reach Vega 64 power. At a reasonable price. Just because of Navi and the 7nm. Just forgetting that they need to work in a new internal architecture for the console, they need a new CPU, Vega was a total and weird failure in terms of consumption, RAM prices are going nuts because of the smartphones, AMD graphics cards prices are going nuts because of the dataminers, and the price of PS4 Pro isn't even including a 4K blu-ray reader.
Ok, it's not just math about the years to be accurate with pricing and the increasing of performance, but it really isn't rocket science to know that PS5 is going to be anyway a expensive platform, and that PS5 is not going much further away than Xbox One X, even if AMDs Navi just results to be a really huge success.
Leocarian
Banned
Any particular reason you don't think that PS5 will launch late 2019? And yes I agree no one will launch a $600 or $700 console we all know what happened with the PS3. Sony can't repeat the same mistake.
It will be $500 max.
bitbydeath
Member
Agreed, RAM prices are pretty crazy.