Support NeoGAF

[Three]

"I'd say that's pretty newsworthy since it provides specifics"

I would disagree. I can't find any novel information that I would consider newsworthy. The fact that more than half of the conversations in the thread are not discussing this "pretty newsworthy" information, lends credence to such a perspective.

Edit: scanning thread again, I would say significantly more than half.

That's like looking at the comments section of a news site to determine if the news is newsworthy. You do you but i think this was pretty newsworthy. Might explain the delay and even gives a rough performance preview of the game:


Website: “Does this mean that the game will run at 30 FPS on Xbox Series S with the same settings as the 60 FPS mode on Xbox Series X?”

Slava Lukyanenka: “Not yet. So far, we're running at around 25 FPS on Xbox Series S, but we still have room to optimize.”

The dev saying he meant 35 here doesn't make much sense to me either since well how is that "not yet" when you look at the question asked.

 

[Variahunter]

Translation :

"We will continue to downgrade all the assets (geometry, models, textures) from the game on every platform so it can run on Series S with low res and frame rate (and even more downgraded assets)."

 

[Mister Wolf]

Expect FSR.

 

[amigastar]

I played and loved N64 games. Low frame rate will never bother me.

The N64 had some really bad framerate in games, imo today not acceptable anymore.

 

[adamsapple]

Expect FSR.

Hoping for UE5's TSR instead.

It's a bit costly, but has a much better resolve than FSR.

 

[poppabk]

Translation :

"We will continue to downgrade all the assets (geometry, models, textures) from the game on every platform so it can run on Series S with low res and frame rate (and even more downgraded assets)."

No wonder it's delayed.
"Series S version is showing drops to 25 fps"
"Have you tried reducing the geometry complexity in the PC version?"
"It made no difference to the Series S version."
"Maybe reduce the texture quality in the Series X version?"
"Still no impact on the Series S version, sir"
"I'm running out of ideas - what are we doing wrong?"

 

[rodrigolfp]

Translation :

"We will continue to downgrade all the assets (geometry, models, textures) from the game on every platform so it can run on Series S with low res and frame rate (and even more downgraded assets)."

Why would they need to downgrade on PC too? We can have several level of assets quality there.

 

[FireFly]

That's like looking at the comments section of a news site to determine if the news is newsworthy. You do you but i think this was pretty newsworthy. Might explain the delay and even gives a rough performance preview of the game:


Website: “Does this mean that the game will run at 30 FPS on Xbox Series S with the same settings as the 60 FPS mode on Xbox Series X?”

Slava Lukyanenka: “Not yet. So far, we're running at around 25 FPS on Xbox Series S, but we still have room to optimize.”

The dev saying he meant 35 here doesn't make much sense to me either since well how is that "not yet" when you look at the question asked.

It could be a 35 average, with lows below 30.

 

[MarkMe2525]

That's like looking at the comments section of a news site to determine if the news is newsworthy. You do you but i think this was pretty newsworthy. L

?? It's not like that at all. It's making note that the article contains so little novel information, that what specifics the article does discuss isn't "noteworthy" enough to even comment on by most.

Most would be having the same discussions if the article just stated "Series S is weaker in comparison to the Series X and PS5. Devs have to optimize more on weaker hardware to attain similar performance with acceptable fidelity. Games typically don't perform at target levels when optimization is not complete."

 

[Cobaiye]

Why is this thread getting traction ?

 

[b0uncyfr0]

FSR 3.1 is a thing - devs need to start utilising it properly.

Im reserving judgement but there is no excuse anymore. It can be implemetned beautifully if done right. Look at Forbidden west and Tsushima, they look and play great.

 

[adamsapple]

No wonder it's delayed.
"Series S version is showing drops to 25 fps"

That's not what the dev said tho.

It could be a 35 average, with lows below 30.

Wouldn't be surprised if they're also fine tuning how DRS works.

 

[M1chl]

So, is it 35 or 25? Someone changed the thread name or am I getting crazy?

 

[adamsapple]

So, is it 35 or 25? Someone changed the thread name or am I getting crazy?

The same developer tweeted that he accidentally said 25, he meant to say 35.

 

[Wolfpact1983]

If you add the first mentioned 25 fps to the later mentioned 35 fps => 60 fps

You are welcome. case closed.

 

[BigLee74]

Xbox not Series S (serious) about power.

When your joke is so bad you need to explain it…

 

[Ozriel]

The Series S prevents developers from going too far with Series X and PS5 games. It's a good mooring point to reality.

Man, if this is what you truly believe, you’re going to be weeping when the Switch 2 shows up next year.

Translation :

"We will continue to downgrade all the assets (geometry, models, textures) from the game on every platform so it can run on Series S with low res and frame rate (and even more downgraded assets)."

Who knew that the best way to optimize performance on a specific platform is to tweak settings and models in other unrelated platforms?

 

[TehDark]

Man, if this is what you truly believe, you’re going to be weeping when the Switch 2 shows up next year.

Do you do you think the switch 2 is going to be stronger or weaker than the series s?

 

[digital_ghost]

Hello!!!.


Its that you brother, hermanito???

 

[Ozriel]

Do you do you think the switch 2 is going to be stronger or weaker than the series s?

Definitely weaker. It’s ultimately a battery powered, portable ARM device. all the rumors put it somewhere between the PS4 and PS4 Pro.

 

[DaGwaphics]

30fps on XSS with maybe a 60 option for VRR users and 30/60 options on XSX. Nothing wrong with that.

XSS users just enjoy the games and aren't over concerned about the framerate (they'd be XSX or PC players if they did).

 

[Ronin_7]

Imagine buying Series S.

 

[simpatico]

Man, if this is what you truly believe, you’re going to be weeping when the Switch 2 shows up next year.

It's been at least a decade since anyone tried to get Nintendo in on a multiplat AAA title

 

[Variahunter]

Man, if this is what you truly believe, you’re going to be weeping when the Switch 2 shows up next year.



Who knew that the best way to optimize performance on a specific platform is to tweak settings and models in other unrelated platforms?

Who knew most developers optimize for the lowest specs target (Series S) ?
Some things can be scalable, other things can be very time consuming to scale, so it's better to downgrade everything.

Yes, you're a clown not knowing that in game development.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Who knew most developers optimize for the lowest specs target (Series S) ?
Some things can be scalable, other things can be very time consuming to scale, so it's better to downgrade everything.

Yes, you're a clown not knowing that in game development.

Not only is this an uninformed assumption when it comes to this games development, but a gross oversimplification. Your assertion that this is how "most developers make their games" is just wrong. They don't have to simplify geometry for every platform, as they already have simplified geometry that was made for their LOD implementation. Implementing simpler geometry on the Series S will have zero impact on more complex geometry made to run on other platforms, in most games. Exact same situation with textures.

 

[Ozriel]

It's been at least a decade since anyone tried to get Nintendo in on a multiplat AAA title

They haven’t had a popular, relatively powerful console in the market for that time.

A Switch 2 would be popular…and powerful enough to run third party ports of games for the current gen flagships.

From 2026, I don’t expect to see any multiplat AAA Japanese game that doesn’t launch on Switch 2.

Who knew most developers optimize for the lowest specs target (Series S) ?
Some things can be scalable, other things can be very time consuming to scale, so it's better to downgrade everything.

Yes, you're a clown not knowing that in game development.

Oof, you’re doubling down

 

[ZehDon]

Who knew most developers optimize for the lowest specs target (Series S) ?
Some things can be scalable, other things can be very time consuming to scale, so it's better to downgrade everything.

Yes, you're a clown not knowing that in game development.

When I don’t know anything about a topic, I don’t say anything. I see your approach is different.

 

[simpatico]

They haven’t had a popular, relatively powerful console in the market for that time.

A Switch 2 would be popular…and powerful enough to run third party ports of games for the current gen flagships.

From 2026, I don’t expect to see any multiplat AAA Japanese game that doesn’t launch on Switch 2.

Are people that optimistic about the Switch 2 power envelope? You see how big the PS5 and SX had to be to mitigate that heat.

 

[Variahunter]

Not only is this an uninformed assumption when it comes to this games development, but a gross oversimplification. Your assertion that this is how "most developers make their games" is just wrong. They don't have to simplify geometry for every platform, as they already have simplified geometry that was made for their LOD implementation. Implementing simpler geometry on the Series S will have zero impact on more complex geometry made to run on other platforms, in most games. Exact same situation with textures.

LOD models are almost never used in replacement for real models on lower end platform. WTF is this misinformation ?
LOD models are sometimes even in 2D at their worse level. Most LOD models wouldn't be used for other platforms.

Let's say a developer has the time to make a LOT of LOD models (for instance in open world, to make the transition feels smooth or almost invisible), in that case the dev would use this opportunity to use some for other low spec platforms, but developing all those LOD models has been very expensive and time consuming. And let's be honest, it's not often the case.

So basically what I just said...

 

[kevboard]

LOD models are almost never used in replacement for real models on lower end platform. WTF is this misinformation ?
LOD models are sometimes even in 2D at their worse level. Most LOD models wouldn't be used for other platforms.

Let's say a developer has the time to make a LOT of LOD models (for instance in open world, to make the transition feels smooth or almost invisible), in that case the dev would use this opportunity to use some for other low spec platforms, but developing all those LOD models has been very expensive and time consuming. And let's be honest, it's not often the case.

So basically what I just said...

LODs can be set to different distances. which effectively lowers the triangle count, texture resolution etc. of any given scene without replacing LOD4 entirely.

but there absolutely have been cases where devs used lower LODs for the detail LOD. pretty sure that's how the last gen version of Callisto Protocol works

 

[Variahunter]

When I don’t know anything about a topic, I don’t say anything. I see your approach is different.

Yeah that's why we never saw any downgrade from the reveal to launch. Even when most games comes out on PC, which can be the most powerful platform (or even future proof) and, by your way of thinking, would never need to downgrade their assets ?
Because of course, even if what they've shown couldn't run well on the most powerful PC at the time, probably would run well in the future because PC tech is evolving.
So why not just keep uber settings all the time ? Pro tips : some dev use uber settings, but not many nowadays... I wonder why ?

Could it be for console parity ? Or maybe they just don't feel like developping all the assets of a game on the same level of quality of that reveal, and "it won't run well on console anyway".

So they just make it look good enough for the low spec platform, and work on it as their base.

I mean, just look at the reveal for this game, Stalker 2, which has already been downgraded compared to first reveals.

 

[Variahunter]

LODs can be set to different distances. which effectively lowers the triangle count, texture resolution etc. of any given scene without replacing LOD4 entirely.

but there absolutely have been cases where devs used lower LODs for the detail LOD. pretty sure that's how the last gen version of Callisto Protocol works

Yeah, so doubling down on what I've said ?

 

[kevboard]

Yeah that's why we never saw any downgrade from the reveal to launch. Even when most games comes out on PC, which can be the most powerful platform (or even future proof) and, by your way of thinking, would never need to downgrade their assets ?
Because of course, even if what they've shown couldn't run well on the most powerful PC at the time, probably would run well in the future because PC tech is evolving.
So why not just keep uber settings all the time ? Pro tips : some dev use uber settings, but not many nowadays... I wonder why ?

Could it be for console parity ? Or maybe they just don't feel like developping all the assets of a game on the same level of quality of that reveal, and "it won't run well on console anyway".

So they just make it look good enough for the low spec platform, and work on it as their base.

I mean, just look at the reveal for this game, Stalker 2, which has already been downgraded compared to first reveals.

we already know why PC devs do that. the same reason Ubisoft devs started hiding settings behind launch commands.

the average player is fucking retarded and sets everything to max. then gets angry that their high end PC only runs the game at 30fps at 1080p and down votes the game or bitches on twitter.

Crytek renamed their graphics presets for Crysis 2, because Crysis 1 players didn't want to set the game to low on their mid range PCs as they demanded the game to run on medium settings or higher.
So in Crysis 2 there was literally no Low settings. the lowest setting is named "High".
and it worked! less people complained about performance, and apparently some people back then thought that the game detects the "best lowest settings" on its own and only shows those, which made them feel better about their PCs lol.

you would see forum posts from people asking how to set certain settings to low or medium

 

[MarkMe2525]

[

LOD models are almost never used in replacement for real models on lower end platform. WTF is this misinformation ?
LOD models are sometimes even in 2D at their worse level. Most LOD models wouldn't be used for other platforms.

Let's say a developer has the time to make a LOT of LOD models (for instance in open world, to make the transition feels smooth or almost invisible), in that case the dev would use this opportunity to use some for other low spec platforms, but developing all those LOD models has been very expensive and time consuming. And let's be honest, it's not often the case.

So basically what I just said...

I don't even know how to respond to this. You are just talking out of your ass. You do know that "LOD" models are just models... Right? It doesn't even make sense to say LOD models aren't replacements for "real models", they are all "real models" that are used in the game? I mean c'mon, no one is suggesting that developers use 2D billboards as a replacement for up close geometry. Why immediately jump to arguing against a strawman.

"Most LOD wouldn't be used on other platforms."

What are you even talking about, of course they reuse their assets across platforms. This assertion is ridiculous.

"Let's say a developer has the time to make a LOT of LOD models"

They do, games take long to make.

"but developing all those LOD models has been very expensive and time consuming"

Yes, games take long to make and are expensive.

 

[FireFly]

Yeah that's why we never saw any downgrade from the reveal to launch. Even when most games comes out on PC, which can be the most powerful platform (or even future proof) and, by your way of thinking, would never need to downgrade their assets ?
Because of course, even if what they've shown couldn't run well on the most powerful PC at the time, probably would run well in the future because PC tech is evolving.
So why not just keep uber settings all the time ? Pro tips : some dev use uber settings, but not many nowadays... I wonder why ?

Could it be for console parity ? Or maybe they just don't feel like developping all the assets of a game on the same level of quality of that reveal, and "it won't run well on console anyway".

So they just make it look good enough for the low spec platform, and work on it as their base.

I mean, just look at the reveal for this game, Stalker 2, which has already been downgraded compared to first reveals.

I don't think we have seen substantial upwards scaling in asset quality on PC for a long time. From the last generation, the only title I can think of is Cyberpunk, and even there, the core content seems to have been designed to run on console hardware. So yes, the base assets are generally designed for the console and the PC gets some quality sliders or at most a texture pack. Downgrades are seen in this context because optimisations happen towards the end of development as the game becomes more defined, while at the beginning there is merely a "reference" target, with vertical slices being shown to the press running on more powerful PC hardware. Arguably the two biggest downgrade controversies were last generation with Watch Dogs and The Witcher 3.

With the S, dropping from 60 to 30 FPS at the same quality settings gets you a 2X speedup so you only need another 50% more performance, which you can get through tweaking quality settings. So even if you keep the resolution the same, as long as there is a performance mode, there should be no need for any downgrades in asset quality (other than for memory reasons). But in reality developers do often have resolution headroom to spare as well, so then a performance mode on the S isn't off the table either.

If games dropped performance modes and went down to 1080p30 then in that case producing a Series S version with the same asset quality would be tough. But so far even PS5 exclusives are not choosing to do this. (We should also note that geometry downgrades don't make sense in the context of Nanite, which incurs a fixed performance cost but allows for pixel size triangles, so "unlimited" geometry detail).

 

[Ozriel]

Are people that optimistic about the Switch 2 power envelope? You see how big the PS5 and SX had to be to mitigate that heat.

It’s won’t be anywhere near as powerful as the PS5 and Series X. But should have graphics performance in the ballpark of the PS4, with a modern CPU far faster than the old Jaguar chip.

You’re looking at a generation that has been heavily dominated so far with cross-gen ports. PS4 generation is only just being dropped due to struggles with memory, CPU and dealing with slow HDD storage. A Switch 2 should provide GPU performance slightly better than that, with pretty good CPU performance and faster storage.

Add to that the expected DLSS support and you should have hardware devs can port to much easier than the existing Switch, and with fewer sacrifices than the last gen consoles.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Are people that optimistic about the Switch 2 power envelope? You see how big the PS5 and SX had to be to mitigate that heat.

It allegedly ran the Matrix demo.

 

[Life Diff]

By optimise they mean cap it at 30fps and call it cinematic

 

[Ozriel]

By optimise they mean cap it at 30fps and call it cinematic

Nobody has ever had to write epistles to justify capping a Series S game at 30fps, and they’ve long confirmed 60fps for the Series X version. Higher for the PC version.

5/10 you tried.

 

[cireza]

By optimise they mean cap it at 30fps and call it cinematic

So now Series S running the game at 30fps is bad ? It has to be a budget console and run games better than 500+ $ consoles ?

 

[adamsapple]

It allegedly ran the Matrix demo.

It's also allegedly not any stronger than a PS4. Rumors will keep running rampant until we get something more reliable.

 

[Wolves hunt in packs]

They managed to add 10fps in several days?! by launch it should run at 120fps on Series S.

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

So now Series S running the game at 30fps is bad ? It has to be a budget console and run games better than 500+ $ consoles ?

My guess is the new demo of gamers are brain dead. Consoles are the lesser experience due to budget hardware. Mid to late gen are when the heavy hitters launch and have always been 30fps. This has always been the norm but ftp with upgraded engines are confusing some.

 

[kevboard]

Are people that optimistic about the Switch 2 power envelope? You see how big the PS5 and SX had to be to mitigate that heat.

we know the Chip it uses, we simply don't know the clock speed.

which means for all we know in docked mode it could either directly compete with the Series S, or it could be closer to the PS4. it's all about the clock speeds now.
Nintendo has to keep handheld mode in mind in all of this as well, which clearly will need to run the GPU at lower clock speeds to get decent battery life. so the question is how they'll balance that.

the tegra they are using can get close to 4 TFLOPS if they use the maximum clock speed it is rated for

 

[simpatico]

we know the Chip it uses, we simply don't know the clock speed.

which means for all we know in docked mode it could either directly compete with the Series S, or it could be closer to the PS4. it's all about the clock speeds now.
Nintendo has to keep handheld mode in mind in all of this as well, which clearly will need to run the GPU at lower clock speeds to get decent battery life. so the question is how they'll balance that.

the tegra they are using can get close to 4 TFLOPS if they use the maximum clock speed it is rated for

I don't think that's enough to ensure "every Japanese AAA game is getting a Switch 2 port". Japanese devs are going to realize they can reach their hardcore base through the Steam store. No need to gimp every big release to fit it into a Switch 2 cart. Sure there will be some, but I don't see new From Soft or Final Fantasy games being squeezed into that hole.

 

[kevboard]

I don't think that's enough to ensure "every Japanese AAA game is getting a Switch 2 port". Japanese devs are going to realize they can reach their hardcore base through the Steam store. No need to gimp every big release to fit it into a Switch 2 cart. Sure there will be some, but I don't see new From Soft or Final Fantasy games being squeezed into that hole.

Switch 1 carts can already handle 64GB game sizes. the Switch 2 will probaby increase that.
and if the Switch 2 will be similar to a Series S in docked, then japanese Devs will definitely release mode of their games on it.

DLSS will help keep image quality good while the internal resolution is lowered due to the low power GPU.

 

[Variahunter]

[
I don't even know how to respond to this. You are just talking out of your ass. You do know that "LOD" models are just models... Right? It doesn't even make sense to say LOD models aren't replacements for "real models", they are all "real models" that are used in the game? I mean c'mon, no one is suggesting that developers use 2D billboards as a replacement for up close geometry. Why immediately jump to arguing against a strawman.

Maybe, just maybe, because LOD models are most of the time not detailed enough to be actual close up models ?

What are you even talking about, of course they reuse their assets across platforms. This assertion is ridiculous.

Let me clarify, it seems you didn't understand that one correctly.
LOD models, if there is 3 or 4 of them for the game, wouldn't be used for an actual close up 3D models for a weaker spec platform. It probably wouldn't be enough detailed even for this platform (PS5 to Switch for example). But if the budget for the game is high, they probably made a lot of LOD models to smooth the transition between LOD models.
So in that case, yes they can be used.

But most LOD models concerned are trees, rocks, grass and so on.
Big structure like the Stormveil Castle in Elden Ring for example, won't have a lot of LOD models, because it's too expensive to make given all the fine details and all the large 3D models composing this castle. So in that case (even with a high budget title), using a LOD model for close up model in an eventual Switch port wouldn't be possible. They would have to downgrade the close up model in the PS4 game (which was used as a base for the other PS5/Series/PC version).

 

[Variahunter]

I don't think we have seen substantial upwards scaling in asset quality on PC for a long time. From the last generation, the only title I can think of is Cyberpunk, and even there, the core content seems to have been designed to run on console hardware. So yes, the base assets are generally designed for the console and the PC gets some quality sliders or at most a texture pack. Downgrades are seen in this context because optimisations happen towards the end of development as the game becomes more defined, while at the beginning there is merely a "reference" target, with vertical slices being shown to the press running on more powerful PC hardware. Arguably the two biggest downgrade controversies were last generation with Watch Dogs and The Witcher 3.

With the S, dropping from 60 to 30 FPS at the same quality settings gets you a 2X speedup so you only need another 50% more performance, which you can get through tweaking quality settings. So even if you keep the resolution the same, as long as there is a performance mode, there should be no need for any downgrades in asset quality (other than for memory reasons). But in reality developers do often have resolution headroom to spare as well, so then a performance mode on the S isn't off the table either.

If games dropped performance modes and went down to 1080p30 then in that case producing a Series S version with the same asset quality would be tough. But so far even PS5 exclusives are not choosing to do this. (We should also note that geometry downgrades don't make sense in the context of Nanite, which incurs a fixed performance cost but allows for pixel size triangles, so "unlimited" geometry detail).

I agree with your first paragraph.
However, the problem with the S in the amount of RAM and its ridiculous speed. It's even worse than the One X on that matter.

RAM is used to store all the 3D models (objects, environment, textures, NPCs), from 1 zone to next zone, or by streaming on the fly if open world.

So in that case, like Stalker 2 being open world, they need to have a total amount of assets streaming at all times that fits into that ridiculous amount of ram. So they would of course begin to reduce resolution, then textures resolution, environment details like rocks, grass etc...
But sometimes it's not enough. And you have to reduce your initial vision/scope for the game because you take that platform into account for the development.

It's like the stairs in that Ninja Gaiden 2 level on Xbox 360, where the amount of ennemies in enormous and causes A LOT of lag in the frame rate, dipping below 15 fps. The original vision for that scene was still there, because Itagaki was a madman that said "fuck it, I don't care about the lags".
In the PS3 port, Yosuke Hayashi prefered to trash the initial vision of Itagaki and make a stable game with way less enemies.

Which version do you prefer today ?

Perfect exemple.

 

[Variahunter]

we already know why PC devs do that. the same reason Ubisoft devs started hiding settings behind launch commands.

the average player is fucking retarded and sets everything to max. then gets angry that their high end PC only runs the game at 30fps at 1080p and down votes the game or bitches on twitter.

Crytek renamed their graphics presets for Crysis 2, because Crysis 1 players didn't want to set the game to low on their mid range PCs as they demanded the game to run on medium settings or higher.
So in Crysis 2 there was literally no Low settings. the lowest setting is named "High".
and it worked! less people complained about performance, and apparently some people back then thought that the game detects the "best lowest settings" on its own and only shows those, which made them feel better about their PCs lol.

you would see forum posts from people asking how to set certain settings to low or medium

Yes I know that, but Crysis 1 and 2 were made in a time where most PC games were not also made for console and vice versa.

Nowadays, almost all AAA are made with PC/PS5/Series in mind at least. And most developers won't go through the effort to make uber settings like new textures or 3D models specifically for the PC version. Some do, yes. Even CD Projekt downgraded to hell TW3 compared to their first initial trailer on PC.

CD Projekt with Cyberpunk made a good decision, by concentrating their PC effort on post processing and RAY tracing, they still make a huge difference without having to touch most 3D models, which is why they can afford all those upgrade patches.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Maybe, just maybe, because LOD models are most of the time not detailed enough to be actual close up models ?


Let me clarify, it seems you didn't understand that one correctly.
LOD models, if there is 3 or 4 of them for the game, wouldn't be used for an actual close up 3D models for a weaker spec platform. It probably wouldn't be enough detailed even for this platform (PS5 to Switch for example). But if the budget for the game is high, they probably made a lot of LOD models to smooth the transition between LOD models.
So in that case, yes they can be used.

But most LOD models concerned are trees, rocks, grass and so on.
Big structure like the Stormveil Castle in Elden Ring for example, won't have a lot of LOD models, because it's too expensive to make given all the fine details and all the large 3D models composing this castle. So in that case (even with a high budget title), using a LOD model for close up model in an eventual Switch port wouldn't be possible. They would have to downgrade the close up model in the PS4 game (which was used as a base for the other PS5/Series/PC version).

You are just asserting things that are not correct. Please keep going.