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[Warm Machine]

I think you don't understand the Onion if that's the angle you think they'd take.

I'm glad you are here to tell me what it is and what it isn't that I understand.

 

[UrbanRats]

If the dude can tear up during his apology as he recognizes how bad of a move this was, why can't some of you?

He could be tearing up for a number of factors, including the great stress he must've gone through in the last few months or so (due to the mission) messing with his sensibility.

Anyway, i'd find it more upsetting if it wasn't a gift from his wife, wore on an obviously special day for the guy, so something with external value attached, regardless of the imagery or tackyness of the shirt (which i find funny looking).
It's unfortunate that it correlates marginally to a larger problem with the field, and i don't mind that it has spawned a dialogue, but the act itself, i don't see as particularly problematic, if viewed in context.

Still, not the most professional attire, got called out, apologized for it (i really don't see the need for some of the tones used, especially from the idiots with their "death threat" macro ready but that's a whole can of worm) no big deal.

Net positive, at least, is sparking constructive dialogue about women in STEM fields.

 

[plasmawave]

When in doubt, always listen to what Batman has to say. He's never wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGGXgjfOWTc



Except for the part him saving King Joffrey.

 

[Tesseract]

My bad, read that on imgur

Also saw this on her timeline:

indeed.

 

[BocoDragon]

If the dude can tear up during his apology as he recognizes how bad of a move this was, why can't some of you?

Being called out as offensive and then having to apologize for it is inherantly emotional, but tears don't signify the objective correctness of this situation.

I'm sure he feels bad. But I think the element of society that shamed him is in the wrong.

 

[Pankratous]

Just read on Twitter that the creator of the shirt hand-made specifically that shirt for this guy as a birthday as a gift, as they are really good friends. He probably wore it to make her proud, which justifies a little why he'd choose to wear it in such a setting.

Feel even worse for them now.

 

[Lace]

Guy wore an inappropriate t-shirt, was made aware of the issue, recognized his mistake, and apologized. I dont think this event really has the big implications journalist hoped to get out of this story. There's no reason anyone should villianize him for this poor choice.

 

[Smash88]

I think you don't understand the Onion if that's the angle you think they'd take.

Apparently neither do you, with your graph posting as if a shirt equates to the fall of females in a certain major.

It's pretty said when people grasp at straws just to feel offended.

But I digress, I'm done with this topic, I told myself I would avoid this and gamergate thing going on - people just find things to create drama.

 

[DarkFlow]

I think we should shame the crew of Apollo 12 while we are at it. They took Playmates to the moon!

http://news.discovery.com/space/apollo-12-playboy-stowaway-to-be-auctioned.htm

As one of the many pranks pulled during the friendly rivalry between the all-Navy prime crew and the all-Air Force backup crew, the Apollo 12 backup crew managed to insert into the astronauts' lunar checklist (attached to the wrists of Conrad's and Bean's space suits) reduced-sized pictures of Playboy Playmates, surprising Conrad and Bean when they looked through the checklist flip-book during their first EVA. The Apollo Lunar Surface Journal website contains a PDF file with the photocopies of their cuff checklists showing these photos.[17] Appearing in Conrad's checklist were Angela Dorian, Miss September 1967 (with the caption "SEEN ANY INTERESTING HILLS & VALLEYS ?") and Reagan Wilson, Miss October 1967 ("PREFERRED TETHER PARTNER," referring to a special procedure that would require the sharing of life support resources). The photos in Bean's cuff checklist were of Cynthia Myers, Miss December 1968 ("DON'T FORGET - DESCRIBE THE PROTUBERANCES") and Leslie Bianchini, Miss January 1969 ("SURVEY - HER ACTIVITY," in pun of Surveyor).[18][19] The backup crew who did this later flew to the Moon themselves on Apollo 15. At the back of Conrad's checklist they had also prepared two pages of complex geological terminology, added as a joke to give him the option to sound to Mission Control like he was as skilled as a professional career geologist. The third crewmember orbiting the Moon was not left out of the Playboy prank, as a November 1969 calendar featuring DeDe Lind, Miss August 1967, had been stowed in a locker that Dick Gordon found while his crewmates were on the lunar surface. In 2011, he put this calendar up for auction. Its value was estimated by RR Auction at US$12,000–15,000.[20][21] While the Command Module Pilot calendar was in full color, the lunar checklists carried black & white photocopies (although these were dramatized in From the Earth to the Moon as full color photos in the checklists).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_12#Stunts_and_mementos

 

[The Technomancer]

Frankly, Matt Taylor seems like a great guy. I think he made a poor choice to wear a shirt coveted in scantily clad ladies for an enormous, professional, global press conference.

But, his apology seems heartfelt and sincere, and simply owning a sexy shirt isn't a reason to make assumptions about his character.

I do always find it a little bizarre to see people coming out of the wood work to "defend" him, when he's acknowledged it was a bad choice, apologized, and isn't looking for a defense.

That's pretty much where I'm at

 

[KHarvey16]

That this apparently is a good guy at the center of this is precisely why it should be a discussion. The name calling and insults aren't constructive, but the discussion needs to happen. The male-focused, exclusionary cultures aren't furthered by nefarious assholes doing their best to hate women, it's the unthinking, second nature, no one questions it kinds of things that propagate them and keep it alive and firmly out of the spotlight.

It's an opportunity and it needs to be taken.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The unwillingness to consider that the shirt may in fact be indicative if an actual problem is exactly what powers gamergate. People roll their eyes. I've already seen a handful of posts where you could swap PC or white knight or internet paladin for SJW and nothing would change. It's the same shit attitude here as it is there.

if this is what you meant to address then fair enough. i would agree, in fact. the shirt is worth discussing, albeit in a less incendiary fashion than sites like the verge have chosen to do so.

 

[Brakke]

My bad, read that on imgur

Also saw this on her timeline:

But it's not even true that his accomplishments "got lost in negativity" because every single time he comes up people holler about "isn't the science more important". Even in this thread! (EDIT: even as I typed this! http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138908743&postcount=209)

Frankly, Matt Taylor seems like a great guy. I think he made a poor choice to wear a shirt coveted in scantily clad ladies for an enormous, professional, global press conference.

But, his apology seems heartfelt and sincere, and simply owning a sexy shirt isn't a reason to make assumptions about his character.

I do always find it a little bizarre to see people coming out of the wood work to "defend" him, when he's acknowledged it was a bad choice, apologized, and isn't looking for a defense.

Same.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Frankly, Matt Taylor seems like a great guy. I think he made a poor choice to wear a shirt coveted in scantily clad ladies for an enormous, professional, global press conference.

But, his apology seems heartfelt and sincere, and simply owning a sexy shirt isn't a reason to make assumptions about his character.

I do always find it a little bizarre to see people coming out of the wood work to "defend" him, when he's acknowledged it was a bad choice, apologized, and isn't looking for a defense.

succinct and correct!

 

[stufte]

Frankly, Matt Taylor seems like a great guy. I think he made a poor choice to wear a shirt coveted in scantily clad ladies for an enormous, professional, global press conference.

But, his apology seems heartfelt and sincere, and simply owning a sexy shirt isn't a reason to make assumptions about his character.

I do always find it a little bizarre to see people coming out of the wood work to "defend" him, when he's acknowledged it was a bad choice, apologized, and isn't looking for a defense.

I think people are willing to "defend" him because he didn't deserve the backlash he got in the first place.

 

[UrbanRats]

Frankly, Matt Taylor seems like a great guy. I think he made a poor choice to wear a shirt coveted in scantily clad ladies for an enormous, professional, global press conference.

But, his apology seems heartfelt and sincere, and simply owning a sexy shirt isn't a reason to make assumptions about his character.

I do always find it a little bizarre to see people coming out of the wood work to "defend" him, when he's acknowledged it was a bad choice, apologized, and isn't looking for a defense.

Yeah, basically i think he had a lapse in judgment, given the fact that the shirt was a gift and all; unnecessary "factions" coming out of the woodwork are making it more complicated than it is, in my opinion.

It was an honest mistake and he apologized, people going overboard trying to "defend" him, are just attaching nasty connotations to the whole debacle.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Apparently neither do you, with your graph posting as if a shirt equates to the fall of females in a certain major.

Who equated it? There's no direct correlation, and one wasn't implied.

Women leaving or not getting into tech is a genuine, real problem, and the dude feeling comfortable enough to wear this shirt in a public interview is visibility into how deep the problem has gotten due to many different factors. You can tell he's upset that he did this, and he knows why it's wrong. Sexism of any kind doesn't always have to be intentional or obvious. He became self-aware.

But I digress, I'm done with this topic, I told myself I would avoid this and gamergate thing going on.

KHarvey16 was right.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I think people are willing to "defend" him because he didn't deserve the backlash he got in the first place.

yup.

it's a truly a shame that he was brought to tears. especially so soon after such a major personal achievement.

 

[Broder Salsa]

I'm not sure I can accept that apology.

 

[Kinyou]

But it's not even true that his accomplishments "got lost in negativity" because every single time he comes up people holler about "isn't the science more important". Even in this thread!

Well people are certainly trying to let it overshadow his accomplishment >>>>> The Verge

 

[UrbanRats]

I think we should shame the crew of Apollo 12 while we are at it. They took Playmates to the moon!

http://news.discovery.com/space/apollo-12-playboy-stowaway-to-be-auctioned.htm



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_12#Stunts_and_mementos

1969 ain't 2014, c'mon now.
Plus they didn't have Playboy underarm, in a public television interview.

 

[besada]

I think people are willing to "defend" him because he didn't deserve the backlash he got in the first place.

I certainly don't believe he deserved to be called names or harassed, but there's nothing wrong with someone pointing out that the shirt was inappropriate for a work environment.

And frankly, when posters substitute their own beliefs for those of Matt Taylor, one begins to suspect they care less about Matt Taylor than they do about an opportunity to grind ideological axes. The people saying there was nothing wrong with it are essentially invalidating Taylor's opinion, and ignoring his heartfelt and unexpected apology.

That's not defending Taylor, that's using him.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

That this apparently is a good guy at the center of this is precisely why it should be a discussion. The name calling and insults aren't constructive, but the discussion needs to happen. The male-focused, exclusionary cultures aren't furthered by nefarious assholes doing their best to hate women, it's the unthinking, second nature, no one questions it kinds of things that propagate them and keep it alive and firmly out of the spotlight.

It's an opportunity and it needs to be taken.

Is that people here?

 

[Tesseract]

i guess i don't understand why the shirt is inappropriate for a work environment. but i'm no judge, i'd be just as swell if his shirt had cock and balls on it.

 

[JDSN]

I think people are willing to "defend" him because he didn't deserve the backlash he got in the first place.

He didnt, but wanting to deny him of his own personal growth via apology because some hack writer made a shitty headline is incredibly petty. When you use this situation as a springboard to talk about "SJWs" and how PC our society is, you are not seeing thing from that dude's perspective, you are using him as a proxy for your own biases.

 

[Brakke]

Well people are certainly trying to let it overshadow his accomplishment >>>>> The Verge

And they're being roundly criticized for it. And they're hardly the newspaper of record. They don't get to decide history. They're not The Tastemakers For Us All. There's no shortage of humans that disagree with The Verge's assessment.

Meanwhile, The Verge itself has run five stories tagged "philae" and exactly one of them is about this dumb shirt. http://www.theverge.com/tag/philae

So it's not even really true that they're trying to overshadow the science with the politics. It's just one more angle on the thing.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Is that people here?

He's pointing out that it's not to make a point.

 

[DarkFlow]

1969 ain't 2014, c'mon now.
Plus they didn't have Playboy underarm, in a public television interview.

No, they just have it posted on a gov website.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/a12_cdrcuff.pdf

Anyway I was making a joke.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I certainly don't believe he deserved to be called names or harassed, but there's nothing wrong with someone pointing out that the shirt was inappropriate for a work environment.

i think that's precisely the kind of backlash stutte was referring to, rather than people who were civilly discussing their concerns about the shirt.

 

[Kinyou]

And they're being roundly criticized for it. And they're hardly the newspaper of record. They don't get to decide history. They're not The Tastemakers For Us All. There's no shortage of humans that disagree with The Verge's assessment.

Meanwhile, The Verge itself has run five stories tagged "philae" and exactly one of them is about this dumb shirt. http://www.theverge.com/tag/philae

So it's not even really true that they're trying to overshadow the science with the politics. It's just one more angle on the thing.

And guess which one of those 5 stories is trending right now. Also, the shirt story is the only one that associates him by name. His name is more connected with sexist shirt than landing a robot on a comet. That's certainly overshadowing to me.

 

[Steiner84]

Hes one of the leading man of an incredible achievment of yet still unknown propotions that is incredible complicated and took 20 years to plan and execute and people are complaining about his shirt? Seriously?
wow
this is low, even for theverge.

 

[UrbanRats]

Anyway I was making a joke.

EDIT: Alright, fair enough.

 

[Warm Machine]

I think people are willing to "defend" him because he didn't deserve the backlash he got in the first place.

Mostly this for me.

The paragon requirement is bothersome. We tend to want anyone who has done something to embody some kind of ideal. Life isn't like that. It isn't his responsibility to uphold a social standard. He also does not embody or stand for all that is science technology engineering and math nor does he claim to. It is mostly unfortunate based on timing with the recent hue and cry about women not being a part of the sciences.

Did he make the wrong fashion choice given the day. Yeah, probably. From his perspective, perhaps that look is who he is comfortable being and some people don't like people looking and being themselves. Maybe his message was that you can be a rock-a-billy, tiki hut loving, tatted up kitschy dude and still accomplish something great?

 

[DarkFlow]

And? I'm saying the context of the two things is different, because there is a general cultural growth and enlightenment on these issues, that is expected, since 1969.

You are taking this way to serious...

 

[Moff]

I feel really bad for him
and there is no way he just happened to wear this shirt.
he presented his lifes work for the whole world, of course the thought about what he would wear for that
first I just thought he may have picked the craziest shirt he owns just for laughs, but since a friend of his designed this he probably wanted her to get some attention. really sad that some people think they have to attack him for that.

 

[UrbanRats]

You are taking this way to serious...

Yeah, edited.

 

[stufte]

He didnt, but wanting to deny him of his own personal growth via apology because some hack writer made a shitty headline is incredibly petty. When you use this situation as a springboard to talk about "SJWs" and how PC our society is, you are not seeing thing from that dude's perspective, you are using him as a proxy for your own biases.

No one is denying him his apology. And who is talking about SJWs and PC bullshit? Are you trying to twist opposition to the "outrage" into some anti-feminism thing? All anyone is saying is that it *shouldn't* have been an outrage to begin with, everything after that is up to Matt Taylor to deal with in the way he sees fit, which he did.

 

[alfredofroylan]

ME VOY!!! La patria me llama.

 

[Dai101]

I think people are willing to "defend" him because he didn't deserve the backlash he got in the first place.

Exactly.

 

[Ivan el Trolazo]

superficial feminists waste their efforts on superficial matters, and hurt feminism by not focusing on real issues

 

[Yrael]

You know when a really cool event happens and you're all positive after it, then go on the internet and see a shitstorm about something that seems overblown? This is like that.

That Verge article is ridiculous.

Yes, there's an air of women feeling unwelcome in the STEM field, but according to analysis from recent years "academic science isn't sexist" where job opportunities, promotions, and workplace are not biased and are actually more equal but just less women are in the field because of early social pressures back in school or lack of exposure to these fields.

NY Times: Academic Science Isn't Sexist

This is a terribly flawed op-ed - sexism is absolutely still a major problem in academic science. These writers all point out the major flaws of the NY piece:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/11/01/yay-sexism-in-science-is-over/

http://galileospendulum.org/2014/11/01/no-academic-science-hasnt-overcome-sexism/

http://www.emilywillinghamphd.com/2014/11/academic-science-is-sexist-we-do-have.html

Furthermore, men are still perceived as being more competent than their female peers, which leads to applicants being more likely to be rejected simply for having a feminine name. Sexual harassment is not only still a problem in astronomy, but in much of scientific fieldwork in general.

I do think the T-shirt worn by the senior scientist was wholly inappropriate (though I don't condone attacking his character for it), as was the language he used describing the Philae lander mission during the livestream ("she's sexy but not easy"), so I'm glad that he apologised. This is a conversation worth having; it is entirely possible to recognise the magnificent achievement of the Rosetta team while acknowledging that there remain problems with gender inequality here on earth. KHarvey16 is right on the money here:

That this apparently is a good guy at the center of this is precisely why it should be a discussion. The name calling and insults aren't constructive, but the discussion needs to happen. The male-focused, exclusionary cultures aren't furthered by nefarious assholes doing their best to hate women, it's the unthinking, second nature, no one questions it kinds of things that propagate them and keep it alive and firmly out of the spotlight.

It's an opportunity and it needs to be taken.

 

[KHarvey16]

Is that people here?

He's pointing out that it's not to make a point.

Exactly.

 

[Smash88]

Who equated it? There's no direct correlation, and one wasn't implied.

Women leaving or not getting into tech is a genuine, real problem, and the dude feeling comfortable enough to wear this shirt in a public interview is visibility into how deep the problem has gotten due to many different factors. You can tell he's upset that he did this, and he knows why it's wrong. Sexism of any kind doesn't always have to be intentional or obvious. He became self-aware.

KHarvey16 was right.

Alright last one, as I feel a better explanation to you is warranted.

The fact that there was any backlash OVER A T-SHIRT is ridiculous to begin with.

Then where you think you didn't imply anything, but you did, when you posted that graph in a thread about a guy who wore a t-shirt that seems to have sparked outrage - even though let's be honest it shouldn't of have. Your graph alone makes people think that somehow this t-shirt and the amount of females that complete a degree in any given field has a some sort of impact or is part of the problem is a ridiculous notion. He became self-aware? What is he a robot? He was being attacked maliciously for no reason, he got upset about it, some are more emotional than others.

You have to understand when you post a graph like that in a thread like this it will seem as though you are implying something. But to attack a guy, and act holier than thou, about a guy wearing a harmless t-shirt that would have been noticed by very few, and even less people would go watching TV, "WOW I'M NEVER ENTERING THIS FIELD BECAUSE OF T-SHIRT HOW DARE HE!"

Am I saying there are no problem in terms of women getting into a tech field, no. I think people acting as armchair-researchers is a problem, there are so many different variables to take into account why females are in decline in the tech field that it's not up to you or I to speculate - especially not to speculate that the causality was somehow even remotely due in part to his t-shirt.

As for your Harvey comment. I won't bite on that issue with a 10 foot pole.

it's a weird thing that we're assuming the worst of somebody based on superficial wares. if a guy like robin williams walked in there with that shirt, would the reactions be similar?

i need to vape weeds now.

Exactly this. Thank you for explaining it better than I can right now, I'm exhausted. I feel bad that he was attacked for something so nonsensical, rather than concentrate on the most amazing thing ever, WE HAVE LANDED ON A FREAKING COMET!

 

[Tesseract]

it's a weird thing that we're assuming the worst of somebody based on superficial wares. if a guy like robin williams walked in there with that shirt, would the reactions be similar?

i need to vape weeds now.

 

[s_mirage]

I certainly don't believe he deserved to be called names or harassed, but there's nothing wrong with someone pointing out that the shirt was inappropriate for a work environment.

Surely what is judged as appropriate or not for his work environment is a matter for his colleagues and superiors, not random people on the internet.

We cannot know what Taylor's true opinion is either. He apologised after being harassed and having his work, and that of the team, overshadowed by an overblown furore, but virtually no-one in that situation would have done any different. Can you imagine the response if he'd just doubled down?

 

[spwolf]

I have received as gifts very many things I wouldn't bring in to my office and on to an internationally broadcast interview about space and science.

If he was just chillin' at home after the thing with this shirt on, then yeah whatever. But context matters.

yeah, context is that his female friend gave it to him and he is a geek and is wearing it.

Not that he is trying to objectify women.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Alright last one, as I feel a better explanation to you is warranted.

The fact that there was any backlash OVER A T-SHIRT is ridiculous to begin with.

Then where you think you didn't imply anything, but you did, when you posted that graph in a thread about a guy who wore a t-shirt that seems to have sparked outrage - even though let's be honest it shouldn't of have. Your graph alone makes people think that somehow this t-shirt and the amount of females that complete a degree in any given field has a some sort of impact or is part of the problem is a ridiculous notion. He became self-aware? What is he a robot? He was being attacked maliciously for no reason, he got upset about it, some are more emotional than others.

You have to understand when you post a graph like that in a thread like this it will seem as though you are implying something. But to attack a guy, and act holier than thou, about a guy wearing a harmless t-shirt that would have been noticed by very few, and even less people would go watching TV, "WOW I'M NEVER ENTERING THIS FIELD BECAUSE OF T-SHIRT HOW DARE HE!"

Am I saying there is no problem in terms of women getting into a tech field, no. What I'm saying is that a mans shirt is apparently what is the root cause is ridiculous. I think people acting as armchair-researchers is a problem, there are so many different variables to take into account why females are in decline in the tech field that it's not up to you or I to speculate - especially not to speculate that the causality was somehow even remotely due in part to his t-shirt. I can't help but laugh.

As for your Harvey comment. I won't bite on that issue with a 10 foot pole, I've seen what happens to people.

No one's saying it's a root cause of anything. This guy did not travel back in time to 50 years ago. It's a part of a much bigger problem that people are dismissing.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Man, people in this thread are fucking mad that a guy learned a lesson.

He apologized and realized it was wrong and people are weirdly pissed about it. The guy is a shining example of how people should be. We should all be that willing to be open to real criticism.

yeah, context is that his female friend gave it to him and he is a geek and is wearing it.

Not that he is trying to objectify women.

Things have unintended consequences. We don't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Tesseract]

Man, people in this thread are fucking mad that a guy learned a lesson.

He apologized and realized it was wrong and people are weirdly pissed about it. The guy is a shining example of how people should be. We should all be that willing to be open to real criticism.



Things have unintended consequences. We don't exist in a vacuum.

i think he's sorry he had to be sorry, but we'll probably never know

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Surely what is judged as appropriate or not for his work environment is a matter for his colleagues and superiors, not random people on the internet.

We cannot know what Taylor's true opinion is either. He apologised after being harassed and having his work, and that of the team, overshadowed by an overblown furore, but virtually no-one in that situation would have done any different. Can you imagine the response if he'd just doubled down?

The shirt definitely wasn't appropriate for that interview

When a friend sent me the link I just thought it was funny that a grown man would wear that shirt in those circumstances, but it didn't make me think less of him since I know shit about him other than he helped get some big science done.

Honestly, seems like too many people who don't really give a shit about the man himself are trying to use the situation as proof that something was won or lost