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[entremet]

this. it's worse than those Hawaii flower shirts.

C'mon. Don't diss Hawaiian shirts like that, man.

 

[kiunchbb]

Kind of feel like this is what should have happened:

"Hey, that shirt isn't really appropriate, do you mind changing it?"

"Ok."

Boom, done. Crisis avoided.

You don't get clicks and retweet doing that.

 

[Scrooged]

Talk about a mountain out of a molehill.

A few women tweet about being offended and it's a huge news item. The Verge article is just awful. Claiming that the shirt has done more to hurt humanity than the space project he was working on for the past 10 years has helped it, claiming the guy misogynist and assuming that women he works with felt uncomfortable in the office (no research was done to verify this). And people wonder why the term SJW exists...

 

[Kinyou]

Yes. And I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is sincere and isn't just apologizing because he felt coerced.

Yeah, and I think calling him a coward if he was coerced is a borderline victim blaming way of looking at coercion.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I'm so with you, he was being himself and got treated like shit for it.

Seen "he was just being himself" so many times in this thread, it's almost a meme.

 

[KHarvey16]

What I was saying in my post is that it's possible that he felt like he had to do it. Again, an apology that is gained through harassment feels tainted. Do you disagree with that?

It's possible he's a time traveling saboteur sent to prevent the machine takeover. It's possible this discussion we're having isn't real and we're in a computer simulation.

Why should we consider any of these possibilities without evidence, nevermind construct a position seemingly based solely on them?

 

[Dice//]

I definitely think it's a stupid shirt. Dumb for the publicity of this thing (i.e.; I believe in 'dressing accordingly' sometimes); but tacky as hell as far as fashion goes.

 

[Kinyou]

Seen "he was just being himself" so many times in this thread, it's almost a meme.

Even his friend who made the shirt said it, I know, it's crazy.

It's possible he's a time traveling saboteur sent to prevent the machine takeover. It's possible this discussion we're having isn't real and we're in a computer simulation.

Why should we consider any of these possibilities without evidence, nevermind construct a position seemingly based solely on them?

That he was harassed is a fact, not a theory. Friend summed up well why I have a problem when an apology is gained through coercion

Remember people, when big brother bullies you and breaks you down to tearfully repent, that means that big brother was right all along!

 

[BocoDragon]

Remember people, when big brother bullies you and breaks you down to tearfully repent, that means that big brother was right all along!

I actually did think about the tearful "confessions" of treason made in Stalinist states, but I thought it was a bit heavy handed to use that metaphor in this discussion. Basically a tearful expression doesn't necessarily imply objective guilt, is all I'd imply.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Well, this is a rather loaded question! However, what we do need to do is listen to the experiences of women working in scientific fields. I linked to one page about sexual harassment of women in astronomy earlier, which was part of a series - it's well worth reading:

Some people may see Taylor’s dress as harmless or eccentric. For example, the UK newspaper, the Daily Mail, basically calls Taylor a rockstar, highlighting public comments on his tattoos and his “wild dress sense.” Erin Brodwin, journalist with The Business Insider science column, however, was not having any of that nonsense. Brodwin focused solely on the issue of sexism, noting that Taylor had recently answered questions on his acceptance as a scientist despite his tattoos. Taylor said then: “The people I work with don’t judge me by my looks but only by the work I have done and can do. Simple.” Brodwin notes with irony: “If only women could hope to someday be judged that way too.”

Analytical Chemist Dr Raychelle Burks noted that a prominent scientist appearing before the world’s media might have chosen a different shirt to make a statement about STEM. If he wanted to appear with a woman on his shirt, why not try Ada Lovelace? Or any other prominent woman in astronomy and astrophysics whose fight for inclusion reshaped space history? Instead of celebrating STEM at this momentous event, women are reminded of our objectification and exclusion.

This matters on many levels: it matters because of the uphill battle we face in STEM fields trying to get everyone to understand that sexism in STEM is an issue that affects us all. It matters because girls are continually told that STEM is not for them. It matters because people want to find excuses for the under-representation of girls and women, rather than focusing on solutions.

Some people on social media are under-playing this incident, telling women scientists to stop spoiling the achievement with feminist discussions. One woman tweets at astronomy Professor Jennifer Hoffman, "We've officially all become prudes." Another man accuses feminism for bumming out a momentous feat. Professor Hoffman argues this is not about prudishness, it's about professional respect of women colleagues:

Lol, I've heard that in this thread already.

.@weswt @missafayres Am I serious about being respected by colleagues in my professional environment? Uh, yes. #shirtstorm
— Jennifer L. Hoffman (@astroprofhoff) November 13, 2014

The reason why some people are under-playing the significance of Taylor’s choice of shirt goes to the heart of the way in which sexism works. Sexism is not simply maintained through active harassment and discrimination. It thrives because of deeply held values that go unexamined.

On our blog post, we pay special attention to how men can help reduce the burden on women in STEM, by actively challenging sexism in professional settings. This includes calling out the lack of awareness and bias of colleagues which objectify, denigrate and otherwise make women feel excluded from science. Sexism is more than insults and physical harassment. Sexism describes the culture, organisational patterns and other practices that perpetuate inequality. The things that we say and do, whether conscious or otherwise, are connected to broader patterns of gender inequality. This is known as everyday sexism - the types of social interaction that reinforce women's lesser status at work and in wider society. This #ShirtStorm incident allows us to see how everyday actions are connected to institutional sexism; that is, the organisational and policy barriers that women face throughout their education and careers. To learn more about how this incident helps us to better understand both everyday and institutional sexism in STEM, and how you and your organisation can help address the exclusion of women, keep reading on the Stem Women website.

(The overall opinion that I've seen from peers in science whenever a discussion about the T-shirt has arisen is that it was inappropriate and demeaning.)

Quoting this for the new page, excellent.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Yeah, and I think calling him a coward if he was coerced is a borderline victim blaming way of looking at coercion.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I stand by that he seems like a sincere guy and means what he says and I don't have any reason to invent a scenario where he isn't.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I'm not really teasing--if someone's avatar was a dude brutalizing a woman, of course I'd support having him change it.

Similarly, if the dude's shirt was offensive to women (which it was), he shouldn't have worn it. I'm glad he apologized, and women appreciated it, too.

Are you saying the shirt is offensive as it exists? Meaning if you saw anyone wearing it at any time it would be wrong to you? I thought this was an issue of wearing the shirt in an appropriate manner not that the shirt should never have been made.

Can't say I would agree. People should be allowed to wear the hunk shirt or the sexy ladies shirt without people assuming things about them. Hell, make it naked guys or girls for all I care.

 

[TOP SHOTTA]

Can you fucking believe this shit though - really.... It's not a unique thought because someone already pointed it out - but what a fucking punch in the donuts it must be for that entire team to have done something so monumental and historic, and have this endeavor get overshadowed (basically) by fucking nonsense like this. I watched the video of him getting emotional - it seems authentic enough. Just unreal.
This week's blowups #shirstorm, #cosbymeme and #diplopenis really have made Twitter possibly the single biggest hype machine on the planet. I know I'm like an old man waving his fist with this, but wow. The mob forms around these things and you never know if it will break bad or not. It's amazing. I think Cosby is done for, the comet landing is all shitted up and bodyshaming gets met with more bodyshaming. The power of Twitter now is In-Sane. And so is the prevalence of new media and record keeping. It had a certain justice ring to it (like with the Cosby thing) but sometimes it feels like we're getting meaner, as a collective of desperate people. Desperate in that we crave drama and public implosions.

 

[Denton]

This tweet:

"Man Forced to Apologize for Sexist Shirt After Successfully Landing Spacecraft on Comet" has to be the ultimate headline for our age.

This whole thing is so depressing.

 

[UrbanRats]

His "bad taste" is not the issue. The shirt, and the fact wearing it didn't seem like a problem, are indicators of a larger problem in society regarding gender.

Isn't it the other way around? The fact that wearing that shirt is a problem in the first place, is an indicator of *the* major problem, not that someone would be willing to wear it.

I don't see anything problematic with the shirt itself, until you apply the societal context of gender disparity and women objectification as a larger problem (epidemic).

By comparison, a shirt with a "back to the kitchen" kind of thing (to use an hyperbolic example) would've been a problem in and of itself, regardless of context.
--
Unless you mean the problem being his obliviousness to the above mentioned "societal context", making it in turn fighting the disparity all the harder; in which case i agree, but the shirt is only tangentially related to the issue, and not problematic on a more absolute level.

 

[Anton Sugar]

"Dear Diary,
Today, November 14, 2014, appreciation for scientific accomplishment died due to SJWs."

 

[Dice//]

I'm guessing we'd be harsher on the guy if he didn't help land the Philae though. He should have just gone on the air in underwear then, we'd get a better chuckle out of it instead and it would be just as work inappropriate.
#lightersideof

 

[richiek]

My angle on why I'd "defend" him is that I find the Internet outrage machine a little scary. We shouldn't have to do everything it says.... It can be crazy and wrong, being that it's a vortex of disparate and often irrational voices. You'd think gamergate and the people offended by this shirt are dissimilar as they fall on opposite sites of feminism/social justice, but they are two sides of the same Twitter/clickbait-fuelled coin. An e-mob.

So was Taylor forced to leave his home for fear that his life was in danger?

Don't get me wrong, he does not seem like a misogynist and appears to be a nice guy who may not have deserved all the vitriol thrown at him. But to compare these people to the lunatics that make up Gamergate is disingenuous.

 

[CrunchyB]

Are you saying the shirt is offensive as it exists?

As if something can be offensive in a vacuum.

Spoiler

space exploration pun!

 

[DeaviL]

The reason why some people are under-playing the significance of Taylor’s choice of shirt goes to the heart of the way in which sexism works. Sexism is not simply maintained through active harassment and discrimination. It thrives because of deeply held values that go unexamined.

So you basically take the dismissal of this shirt being bad as easy proof of casual sexism.
How handy, proof without effort.

Spoiler

The problem with this statement is that the deeply held values are held as objectively wrong

 

[Reishiki]

Sometimes, I wonder if my opinion of online 'social justice' can't get any lower, then something like this happens.

 

[Tesseract]

"Dear Diary,
Today, November 14, 2014, appreciation for scientific accomplishment died due to SJWs."

is why i had to wear uniforms in high school ! :0

 

[KHarvey16]

Isn't it the other way around? The fact that wearing that shirt is a problem in the first place, is an indicator of *the* major problem, not that someone would be willing to wear it.

I don't see anything problematic with the shirt itself, until you apply the societal context of gender disparity and women objectification as a larger problem (epidemic).

By comparison, a shirt with a "back to the kitchen" kind of thing (to use an hyperbolic example) would've been a problem in and of itself, regardless of context.
--
Unless you mean the problem being his obliviousness to the above mentioned "societal context", making it in turn fighting the disparity all the harder; in which case i agree, but the shirt is only tangentially related to the issue, and not problematic on a more absolute level.

That's exactly what I mean. The shirt isn't the cause, but a symptom. The reaction to the topic itself (not the reaction to the articles and Twitter posts calling him names, which are also problems) is also an indicator of the larger issue at play.

 

[Anton Sugar]

So you basically take the dismissal of this shirt being bad as easy proof of casual sexism.
How handy, proof without effort.

What proof do you want?

Shirt covered in sexy women? Check.
Women who were offended? Check.
Men dismissing the validity of offended women? Check.

 

[BocoDragon]

So was Taylor forced to leave his home for fear that his life was in danger?

Don't get me wrong, he does not seem like a misogynist and appears to be a nice guy who may not have deserved all the vitriol thrown at him. But to compare these people to the lunatics that make up Gamergate is disingenuous.

Gamegater would have been a dumb Internet mob even without the real world impact of death threats. i wasn't considering those threats when I invoked it... More to the similarity in the way that the Internet has the potential to spin individuals into a moblike force. It's right to counter this mob with a little resistance, which is to answer why some people would "defend" him for wearing the shirt. It's more about not letting the loudest and most outraged voices sweep our society away.

 

[Scrooged]

So you basically take the dismissal of this shirt being bad as easy proof of casual sexism.
How handy, proof without effort.

It's such bullshit. That's why there's no meaningful debate in these types of topics and it always turns into an us vs. them shit show.

 

[Tesseract]

What proof do you want?

Shirt covered in sexy women? Check.
Women who were offended? Check.
Men dismissing the validity of offended women? Check.

woman who created shirt not offended, divide by zero?

 

[KHarvey16]

woman who created shirt not offended, divide by zero?

Women in gamergate, #itsactuallyaboutgamesjournalism

 

[DeaviL]

What proof do you want?

Shirt covered in sexy women? Check.
Women who were offended? Check.
Men dismissing the validity of offended women? Check.

Offense is subjective
As is my thinking that this shirt is just fine btw.

 

[Brakke]

Can you fucking believe this shit though - really.... It's not a unique thought because someone already pointed it out - but what a fucking punch in the donuts it must be for that entire team to have done something so monumental and historic, and have this endeavor get overshadowed (basically) by fucking nonsense like this. I watched the video of him getting emotional - it seems authentic enough. Just unreal.
This week's blowups #shirstorm, #cosbymeme and #diplopenis really have made Twitter possibly the single biggest hype machine on the planet. I know I'm like an old man waving his fist with this, but wow.

Still with the "overshadow". You think the textbooks are going to have little boxouts about shirtstorm in the Philae Lander chapter?

 

[Tesseract]

Women in gamergate, #itsactuallyaboutgamesjournalism

i have no idea what gamergate is, it doesn't sound fun

 

[Anton Sugar]

woman who created shirt not offended, divide by zero?

Offense is subjective

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

 

[KHarvey16]

i have no idea what gamergate is, it doesn't sound fun

It's a misogynist movement that has attempted to legitimize its message by pointing out it has female members. It's bad reasoning in both situations.

 

[Ferrio]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

At what point do you draw the line though?

 

[DeaviL]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

And yet an incredible amount of people are thinking this is objectively bad.

EDIT: Like you did apparently.

 

[Foggy]

One of the most spectacularly awful shirts ever worn is now endemic of systemic workplace sexism? Oh well, all's well that ends well I guess.

 

[Nokagi]

People apologize too much. You bought the shirt and wore the damn thing so just own it.

 

[stufte]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

Actually you can. The thing you shouldn't do is tell them that they CAN'T be offended. Plenty of people have the ability the be offended by things that objectively *not* offensive, yet they still have the right to be offended by it.

 

[Nethaniah]

I live a pretty uneventful life and have no major responsibilities but even i couldn't find the time to be offended by something as dumb as this, where do people find the time for this shit.

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

ISimilarly, if the dude's shirt was offensive to women (which it was)

Okay.

 

[Tesseract]

It's a misogynist movement that has attempted to legitimize its message by pointing out it has female members. It's bad reasoning in both situations.

i fail to see the similarity

 

[KHarvey16]

People apologize too much. You bought the shirt and wore the damn thing so just own it.

What if he's sorry?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Not only would it be considered unprofessional to wear this at my job, but it would be considered an act of sexual harassment.

 

[Superflat]

I take these things case-by-case, and while it's good that he apologized and all I'm frankly surprised that this blew up into what it became. It's a ugly as hell shirt though.

 

[Ville Pukema]

Seen "he was just being himself" so many times in this thread, it's almost a meme.

Maker of the shirt is lying? She also is saying hes friend of Matt thats also lie and she is just making shit up to sell her shirts?

 

[CyclopsRock]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

As true as that is (what's offensive to them, at least), it's also basically irrelevant without any further explanation. Something simply being offensive to someone doesn't mean anything in terms of its right or wrongs.

 

[Dice//]

One of the most spectacularly awful shirts ever worn is now endemic of systemic workplace sexism? Oh well, all's well that ends well I guess.

Quoting in case it gets lost in the 'bigger' responses

 

[KHarvey16]

i fail to see the comparison

Countering "it's offensive to women" with "but here's a woman who doesn't think its offensive" is poor reasoning employed by some here and also by gamergaters.

 

[TOP SHOTTA]

Still with the "overshadow". You think the textbooks are going to have little boxouts about shirtstorm in the Philae Lander chapter?

If it's a holistic look at the event, how people consume science news and how contemporary media helps interpret it, yeah that's completely possible - especially since modern science is kind of 'going for that' right now. They're super desperate for social media help incase you don't follow The Skeptics Guide to the Universe, Mysterious Universe, Astronomycast, Bad Astronomer/Phil Plait etc.

Not only would it be considered unprofessional to wear this at my job, but it would be considered an act of sexual harassment.

Ya know...that's true too. Agh. Complex one here. This is nuts.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Maker of the shirt is lying? She also is saying hes friend of Matt thats also lie and she is just making shit up to sell her shirts?

Excuse me, where did I say anyone was lying? I said that "he was just being himself" is a fucking ridiculous justification.

Okay.

Here, take a few minutes to read this and this so that you, too, will have the mystical knowledge that I have of women being offended.

And yet an incredible amount of people are thinking this is objectively bad.

Women are telling you how they feel. Some people are supporting them, others are telling them they have no right to be offended.

 

[Scrooged]

You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.

And you don't get to dismiss all the woman saying that they are NOT offended by this. It goes both ways. You've got to provide some sort of metric you're working with here. If just one woman is offended by thing X...does that mean society should change?