Support NeoGAF

[hokagespit]

Nope but got some good friends playing through it right now. The whole ganking of the torch mechanic and lighting at the 11th hour and that the level design doesnt even approach Dark Souls 1 is a huge hit to my perception of the package. You can have your "its fine! FINE!!" opinions, but things like this MADE Dark Souls so stand-out in what it was:

Hell, even stuff like slightly wonkier animation I was willing to overlook, but now its just another bullet-point on a flub list.

As I said, I'm sure its going to be a good game, just not a great one for me. One I'm not going to be all evangelical over playing. This shit matters to me, I'm happy it doesn't to other people so they can still wring as much joy out of the product.

if you haven't played it and only looked at it. then you haven't really formed a real opinion over weather you enjoy it or not yet. you havent tried the gameplay which is the same.... only better? the torch mechanic wasn't ganked enemies still react and some areas are a pain to see in without one. we were never going to get anything like the reveal from FROM especially on ps360

I would of got dark souls 2 without even seeing it. i got demons souls without seeing it. i read someone describing playing and went immediately out and bought it.

as long as the pc version has durante level iq im going to be pleased and happy with my double dip. this better not be something we end up having to wait to be fixed.

 

[Facism]

does he need 86 hours played before he's allowed an opinion?

 

[Rhaknar]

more dark souls conspiracies...yay

 

[Pie and Beans]

Ok, good explanation. I was not even aware of that mechanic. I did not see it in any advertising or gameplay videos and I don't remember that happening in the network test.

How about the level design? You can't possibly make a judgement of that from the small section in the network test.

Got good Dark Souls obsessed friends that remarked as such, as have a lot of people on this here forum. That the game chooses a more spread out non-connected world more akin to DeS than DaS 1 is a huge step back from what DaS 1 achieved with its criss-crossing layered elements.

Also, simply ganking out the torch mechanic has directly influenced how a level that would once be a tense inch-forward scenario just becomes a quick bolt down a hallway and an easy way to waste a lockstone for very few benefits when before being able to see everything suddenly and have your shield up would be the benefit.

This is why something so core to the game getting ripped out at the 11th hour be it for technical reasons or focus testing reasons has negatively impacted the whole experience. There clearly wasn't time to go back and re-balance everything and tone down the games torch mechanic, and instead you get a bit of a void left in place of it.

With the PC release we'll get to see if it was technical reasons or pissy annoying focus testing that took that layer away from the title since the "old consoles!!" excuse is gone.

That they're not going to show the fucking thing probably up until launch day and other people stream it is why day by day I lose more and more respect for the whole series.

 

[Haunted]

as long as the pc version has durante level iq im going to be pleased and happy with my double dip. this better not be something we end up having to wait to be fixed.

I don't think the IQ will be the problem this time around. 1080p support seems to be there and I think Durante spotted some form of SSAO in PC screenshots earlier. Not sure about DoF.

If there's anything the mod community would be really concerned with, it's texture quality and lighting engine changes, and while the former should be feasible when the file structure is similar to DS1, nothing is known about the possibilities for changing the latter. People will need to take a look at the release and search around a while before we even know what'll be possible and what won't.

 

[Shinjica]

Got good Dark Souls obsessed friends that remarked as such, as have a lot of people on this here forum. That the game chooses a more spread out non-connected world more akin to DeS than DaS 1 is a huge step back from what DaS 1 achieved with its criss-crossing layered elements.

Also, simply ganking out the torch mechanic has directly influenced how a level that would once be a tense inch-forward scenario just becomes a quick bolt down a hallway and an easy way to waste a lockstone for very few benefits when before being able to see everything suddenly and have your shield up would be the benefit.

This is why something so core to the game getting ripped out at the 11th hour be it for technical reasons or focus testing reasons has negatively impacted the whole experience. There clearly wasn't time to go back and re-balance everything and tone down the games torch mechanic, and instead you get a bit of a void left in place of it.

With the PC release we'll get to see if it was technical reasons or pissy annoying focus testing that took that layer away from the title since the "old consoles!!" excuse is gone.

That they're not going to show the fucking thing probably up until launch day and other people stream it is why day by day I lose more and more respect for the whole series.

Someone finally are speaking some sense here.

I don't think the IQ will be the problem this time around. Resolution support seems to be there, I think Durante spotted some form of SSAO in PC screenshots earlier.

If there's anything the mod community would be concerned with, it's texture quality and lighting engine changes, and while the former should be feasible when the file structure is similar to DS1, nothing is known about the possibilities for changing the latter. People will need to take a look at the release and search around a while before we even know what'll be possible and what won't.

We need to stop asking Modders to fix developers job. I really hope Durante this time will not spend a sigle minute fix FROM work.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I don't think the IQ will be the problem this time around. Resolution support seems to be there, I think Durante spotted some form of SSAO in PC screenshots earlier.

If there's anything the mod community would be concerned with, it's texture quality and lighting engine changes, and while the former should be feasible when the file structure is similar to DS1, nothing is known about the possibilities for changing the latter. People will need to take a look at the release and search around a while before we even know what'll be possible and what won't.

The fact that elements of the old lighting engine just glitch through at certain moments has me unreasonably hopeful:

Seems to trigger if the Mirror Knight walks on a destroyed pillar. This glitch / bug happened to me yesterday too:

That horizontal lightning swipe of his also seemed nowhere near as long as it did in the preview build (the one with higher graphical fidelity). Think it didn't even show for me at one point, so I was left wondering what the big deal was about that attack. I'll post another comparison about that later.

 

[ponpo]

Also, simply ganking out the torch mechanic has directly influenced how a level that would once be a tense inch-forward scenario just becomes a quick bolt down a hallway and an easy way to waste a lockstone for very few benefits when before being able to see everything suddenly and have your shield up would be the benefit.

This just isn't true. Did you think the whole game was going to be a constant switching between light and shield? It wasn't going to be Doom 3.

Same as the past two Souls games, your first time through areas will be tense as you won't know what to expect, light or dark. After you're used to areas, a 'quick bolt down a hallway' is what the game will become, again, just like the other games and whether they were light or dark.

I never knew people placed such high importance on the "interconnected areas" of Dark Souls 1. They must have hated the game post Anor Londo.

 

[Shinjica]

This just isn't true. Did you think the whole game was going to be a constant switching between light and shield? It wasn't going to be Doom 3.

But we still have the fact that the majority of dark area who, at first, were build around torch mechanics are gone

 

[daniels]

I would not call DS2 ugly its just very uneven but you have stuff like the Dragon Aerie, Dragon Shrine and Shrine of amana that look better than anything in Demons and DS1

 

[Persona7]

Got good Dark Souls obsessed friends that remarked as such, as have a lot of people on this here forum. That the game chooses a more spread out non-connected world more akin to DeS than DaS 1 is a huge step back from what DaS 1 achieved with its criss-crossing layered elements.

Also, simply ganking out the torch mechanic has directly influenced how a level that would once be a tense inch-forward scenario just becomes a quick bolt down a hallway and an easy way to waste a lockstone for very few benefits when before being able to see everything suddenly and have your shield up would be the benefit.

This is why something so core to the game getting ripped out at the 11th hour be it for technical reasons or focus testing reasons has negatively impacted the whole experience. There clearly wasn't time to go back and re-balance everything and tone down the games torch mechanic, and instead you get a bit of a void left in place of it.

With the PC release we'll get to see if it was technical reasons or pissy annoying focus testing that took that layer away from the title since the "old consoles!!" excuse is gone.

That they're not going to show the fucking thing probably up until launch day and other people stream it is why day by day I lose more and more respect for the whole series.

One last question, where did you get the information on the torch mechanic? Was it in a video or developer interview? I am searching on the internet but nothing comes up except articles about the lighting. Do you also know any levels that feature this pulled mechanic? I am trying to think of areas that have enemies spread around the torches similar to how you describe the inch forward thing.

Maybe they pulled it because it just was not working out? The design as far as I can tell does not portray that scenario unless they rearranged the location of enemies which probably could not have happened at the last minute.

 

[Jigorath]

They don't want us console peasants to feel bad.

 

[ponpo]

But we still have the fact that the majority of dark area who, at first, were build around torch mechanics are gone

Which area? I remember them showing off that dark hallway in the forest of giants early on, and that part certainly is still better with a torch.

No-Man's Wharf, Huntsman's Copse, The Gutter, Undead Crypt, maybe others. All of these places benefit from using the torch. I'm not sure how the mechanic is gone or what people were expecting.

Was the game supposed to take place at night? Do people think Dragon Aerie or Shaded Ruins were going to be areas requiring the torch until they 'scrapped the mechanic'?

 

[Shinjica]

Which area? I remember them showing off that dark hallway in the forest of giants early on, and that part certainly is still better with a torch.

No-Man's Wharf, Huntsman's Copse, The Gutter, Undead Crypt, maybe others. All of these places benefit from using the torch. I'm not sure how the mechanic is gone or what people were expecting.

Was the game supposed to take place at night? Do people think Dragon Aerie or Shaded Ruins were going to be areas requiring the torch until they 'scrapped the mechanic'?

Forest of giants when you're inside the building. There are many area inside who are grey and were designed for torch in mind. For example to corridor with the turtle knight heading aoutisde for the third bonfire or the area were you can use the pharros key.

 

[RK9039]

One last question, where did you get the information on the torch mechanic? Was it in a video or developer interview? I am searching on the internet but nothing comes up except articles about the lighting. Do you also know any levels that feature this pulled mechanic? I am trying to think of areas that have enemies spread around the torches similar to how you describe the inch forward thing.

Maybe they pulled it because it just was not working out? The design as far as I can tell does not portray that scenario unless they rearranged the location of enemies which probably could not have happened at the last minute.

Skeleton cave in the Huntsmen area, this was in the network test. It was so dark you had to light the sconces, or at least use a torch and abandon your shield.

 

[bob_arctor]

My biggest graphical beefs with DS2 are the aforementioned "grey" areas which look too washed out and the lack of the shiny/slimy-ness on many of the textures compared to Dark Souls--the big turtle shell enemies are a good example of what I mean. The framerate on the 360 version is damn good; there are no Blighttown moments I've run into, and the screen tearing has been overstated imo (your mileage may vary in this regard of course). The lighting, even with the downgrade, is also better than Dark Souls in many spots, and using the torch still does look great. It's far from an ugly game and saying so is a pretty big stretch. I would say it's more visually sloppy than Dark Souls, however, but even a simple gamma fix would alleviate a lot of the problems in its aesthetic.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

One last question, where did you get the information on the torch mechanic? Was it in a video or developer interview? I am searching on the internet but nothing comes up except articles about the lighting. Do you also know any levels that feature this pulled mechanic? I am trying to think of areas that have enemies spread around the torches similar to how you describe the inch forward thing.

Maybe they pulled it because it just was not working out? The design as far as I can tell does not portray that scenario unless they rearranged the location of enemies which probably could not have happened at the last minute.

It's clear that Forest of the Giants, the very first area you're likely to step into, was meant to be noticeably darker than how it is now without it being pitch-black. There are multiple sconces scattered about (one right next to Mild-Mannered Pate, another next to the hunched-over Heide Knight and more) but in the retail version that level is in broad daylight. The ugly background scenery there from certain angles only re-inforces that it was supposed to be obscured from plain view instead of it bathing in sunlight. This isn't the only instance of a graphical imperfection in Dark Souls II that was meant to be shrouded in varying degrees of darkness, much like how the first Dark Souls usually hid them with large, conveniently-placed walls or blatant DoF. Other stages are still suitably dark so it's not as if FROM completely abandoned it, but with practically any location that isn't The Gutter you can tell that the game's brightness / gamma values have been considerably cranked up to the point where even during some of those stages (like No Man's Wharf) the torch is no longer an important piece of equipment. Then there's also the generous drop rate for the torch, never mind the many bottled Fire Butterflies (for non-bonfire ignition) to be found from sources of loot. Furthermore: with how the existence of the torch is now largely ignored, a lot of players (both in the OT and those that have summoned me in-game) have also become unaware about specific interactions like

Spoiler

draining the poison pool of the snake queen

boss in

Spoiler

Earthen Peak

. There are more like these, although not as drastic as the example I just mentioned.

Personally, I would've liked FROM's original vision of heavily emphasizing the torch and I think it could've worked in the Dark Souls II we have today with a simple change. Right now it's cumbersome to manage your torch: if you change back to your shield after you lit up a torch (due to for example being ambushed) the thing is extinguished, period. Water makes it fizzle out too, but that's besides the point. Anyways: you then either need to go back to your bonfire if you didn't light up a sconce along the way OR use a Fire Butterfly on the spot, whereas a more elegant solution would've been your player character dropping the torch on the floor only for you to be able to pick it up later. No more backtracking, no more opening up a menu for an action so trivial and with darkness still reducing your lock-on range (case in point:

Spoiler

The Lost Sinner

boss) it would've been a neat gameplay nuance where you become more mindful about your positioning or how you kite enemies.

 

[UnrealEck]

This ridiculous shit again about lighting glitching in and out on Mirror Knight?
Let's throw in some "the 2012 reveal was a mock demo, not the real game" for a good healthy measure of bullshit.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I'm glad I'm not Durante. Must be kinda stressfull if everybody is chanting your name to do something with a game that isn't even out yet.

 

[Alric]

Do you think in the PC version all the mirrors will be reflective and if not wonder if someone will mod that in.

 

[Calibus]

its a little tiresome-we get it-its ugly

its also one of the most fun/challenging games on the market-but noone sees that

Agree on second part, disagree on first. Dark Souls 2 looks perfectly fine. Not as good as what we were shown early on but not ugly by any means.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I'm glad I'm not Durante. Must be kinda stressful.

Especially when your not even getting paid for any of it.

 

[-MD-]

I'm glad I'm not Durante. Must be kinda stressfull if everybody is chanting your name to do something with a game that isn't even out yet.

I'm sure it feels good having a community chant your name, people genuinely respect the guy for the work he put into some of these games to actually make them playable.

I'm not sure I would do it, fixing other people's broken ass games while they benefit. But at least he gets recognized by the community for it, though it probably does get annoying having your name shouted out whenever a fix is needed.

 

[UnrealEck]

Do you think in the PC version all the mirrors will be reflective and if not wonder if someone will mod that in.

PC version's mirrors will be so reflective, it'll reflect the dimension we can't even see. Plus vampires, which may or may not be in the game.

 

[doomquake]

did the PC version leak?

 

[Alo81]

did the PC version leak?

No.

 

[EatinOlives]

I could have sworn I saw somewhere that Namco was giving DS2 a much larger budget than the original that was described as "AAA". Or maybe it was just marketing? I can't remember.

The DS2 budget described as AAA. Not the original. I know original Dark Souls had a low budget. xD

They tooted that horn on reveal, when they developed a completely independent vertical slice demo of a game that was never going to be in the final product. Basically, it was "AAA marketing".

Bizarre that they frontloaded their marketing so much and yet the game was quietly farted out on release. The dev team obviously had issues with the game's scope. They must have realized pretty early on that they were never going to be able to reach the fidelity they promised in the first reveal, and since they made that decision Namco dragged their feet and pretended to look the other way with the marketing up until release.

 

[Grief.exe]

Do you think in the PC version all the mirrors will be reflective and if not wonder if someone will mod that in.

It is possible. The reflective part of the mirror knight fight is still in the game files, as it glitches in every once in a while during the fight.

Make you wonder if the original shadow implementation is still in the gamefiles as well.

 

[Garcia]

did the PC version leak?

That would be wonderful. The silence surrounding the "leading version" is troubling.

 

[wickfut]

It is possible. The reflective part of the mirror knight fight is still in the game files, as it glitches in every once in a while during the fight.

Make you wonder if the original shadow implementation is still in the gamefiles as well.

It's not reflective. It's a simulated reflection using an environment map texture of the 2d background.

If you look at the pre release ps3 video it shows mountains in the background, the texture used for the reflective environment map matches the greys for those mountains.

The environment map texture used in the Pursuer boss matches the same colours as the background on that level.

On the Mirror Knight console release there is no 2d background texture so the environment map is a plain black one. It looks as if the fault is with the game not loading the correct background texture, which is why it sometimes glitches into one of green grass and blue sky.

[edit]

There are mountains on the console release, but they don't go all the way around and they're black outlines instead of grey like the pre-release footage.

 

[Gbraga]

I wish they could release some pre-order numbers, it's always on the top sellers, but not close to Stick of Truth, I wonder how big is the difference in numbers.

 

[Alo81]

I wish they could release some pre-order numbers, it's always on the top sellers, but not close to Stick of Truth, I wonder how big is the difference in numbers.

A lot of people are buying from not-steam because the prices are better elsewhere.

 

[doomquake]

looks..looks kind of like it used to

 

[mullet2000]

Titanfall for 360 is launching in 7 days and there's still no footage of it.

Could be worse.

 

[zephervack]

Titanfall for 360 is launching in 7 days and there's still no footage of it.

Could be worse.

It will be worse, we didnt get ANYTHING with Dark Souls 1 for PC, until leaks days before release day.

 

[doomquake]

cant wait to see titanfall on 360

 

[mullet2000]

It will be worse, we didnt get ANYTHING with Dark Souls 1 for PC, until leaks days before release day.

I'm assuming that's how 360 Titanfall will go too!

Hopefully DS2 fairs better than DS1 given that the PC version was the main version. Still about to a month to go so we'll see.

 

[Grief.exe]

...ya

 

[eot]

It's not reflective. It's a simulated reflection using an environment map texture of the 2d background.

If you look at the pre release ps3 video it shows mountains in the background, the texture used for the reflective environment map matches the greys for those mountains.

Yeah, it's called a cube map.
Pretty much any kind of reflective surface (most common example is sniper scopes) is going to be using that. It's still a reflection effect even though it's prebaked.

 

[Lasthope106]

Usually companies can't stop talking about their game when it's about to be released. Such poor handling by BAMCO when it comes to the pc version which was supposedly the lead version.

 

[OverBlood 3]

 

[Alo81]

Oh SHIT.

Aughhhhhh wow I want dat early access

 

[ScottSullivan]

Game is really great dudes. And the true value of the PC version will be bug fixes and mods, not some up ressed textures and better lighting

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

Cheapest preorder price currently is still at GMG, right? I'm keeping an eye out until the last possible moment to buy.

 

[Alo81]

Cheapest preorder price currently is still at GMG, right? I'm keeping an eye out until the last possible moment to buy.

Official yeah, though you could probably get it cheaper through key resellers if that's something you're comfortable with.

 

[rvy]

They know the game is just the console version with higher res and better textures here and there.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

Official yeah, though you could probably get it cheaper through key resellers if that's something you're comfortable with.

Gotta get that $12 GMG credit tho.

 

[Alo81]

Maybe this'll be an RE4 PC example, where we just gotta flip some internal switches in the game to turn the lighting back on.

 

[Grief.exe]

Maybe this'll be an RE4 PC example, where we just gotta flip some internal switches in the game to turn the lighting back on.

Sounds good to me.

Durante's Face When.

Can't wait.

 

[orborborb]

I never knew people placed such high importance on the "interconnected areas" of Dark Souls 1. They must have hated the game post Anor Londo.

New Londo Ruins and The Catacombs are accessible right from the beginning, so coming back to them later and being able to explore them in more depth is different from just adding a new destination to your warp list. New Londo Ruins also connects back to the Valley of the Drakes in a cool way, and The Catacombs is so vertical and interconnected that it satisfies us level design obsessives all by itself. As for the Demon Ruins and the Duke's Archives, I'd say that yes most people were disappointed with them.

The "one level after another" or "big flat open world" schools of level design are like an album of individual songs or a DJ set mixing together loop-based music, easy and completely valid ways to get ideas out there and string them together in a way people can follow and enjoy, but artistically not at all comparable to a symphony.