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https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4674361/#Comment_4674361

Thanks for the link. I look forward to hearing more about this.

Seeing a laser beam in the vacuum of space is an artistic choice as well. One that should raise flags first before the talk of a continuous beam vs an intermittent burst. To be more specific using lasers as weapons also is firmly in the fiction side of sci fi so I am glad sci fi doesn't take things too seriously.

LASER weaponry isn't fictional. It's been in development since the 1960s. As for visibility, that's a good generalized point about a vacuum, but even space has areas where particles, debris, etc are present which would make a LASER's continuous beam visible. An unrealistic beam portrayal is a greater issue than its stylized visibility.

 

[Daedardus]

It's a game guys, gameplay and general enjoyment still counts. AI fighting AI with invisible weapons and no sound would be a tad boring.

Also, are those trust ratings for real? 10x TR13?! Don't tell me this thing will still be a crawl when flying if loaded with half of its full mass capacity.

 

[ultrazilla]

So when the "open world" goes live, will we for example be able to come across a derelict spaceship in orbit of a dead world, board the ship, get out on foot and go into first person mode to explore the ship? Then perhaps come across dead crew members and realize there's creatures on board? Maybe then have to self destruct the ship and get out of it with logs to turn in for bounty/money/proof of what happened to it?

Or is that wishful thinking? I swear I thought Chris mentioned he wanted to implement something like this in the persistent game.

 

[Dictator93]

Power creep like hell with those capacities though.

Do you think you will melt down the freelancer?

These ships will be decidedly less versatile and maneuverable.

 

[Zalusithix]

Thanks for the link. I look forward to hearing more about this.



LASER weaponry isn't fictional. It's been in development since the 1960s. As for visibility, that's a good generalized point about a vacuum, but even space has areas where particles, debris, etc are present which would make a LASER's continuous beam visible. An unrealistic beam portrayal is a greater issue than its stylized visibility.

Weaponized lasers aren't going to be in the visible spectrum. It's a waste of energy. Even if the area was littered with debris, you'd not see the beam's reflection. Just the vaporizing of whatever was in the way.

Also, are those trust ratings for real? 10x TR13?! Don't tell me this thing will still be a crawl when flying if loaded with half of its full mass capacity.

TR ratings are size related now, not quality/power. Granted a larger engine should generally have more power than a smaller one, but the Hull E is massive and needs that thrust. Sure, when running half empty, it'll accelerate well enough - in a straight line. It'll still handle like a pig though and require escorts unless you're somewhat crazy. Frankly, you might be better off using multiple Hull Ds in the cases where you'd only have half of the E loaded. At least then the risk is split.

I really don't see the Es being used without serious escorting, in which case how fast they go using those engines isn't going to be much of a factor.

 

[Geist-]

So when the "open world" goes live, will we for example be able to come across a derelict spaceship in orbit of a dead world, board the ship, get out on foot and go into first person mode to explore the ship? Then perhaps come across dead crew members and realize there's creatures on board? Maybe then have to self destruct the ship and get out of it with logs to turn in for bounty/money/proof of what happened to it?

Or is that wishful thinking? I swear I thought Chris mentioned he wanted to implement something like this in the persistent game.

Pretty sure I heard the same thing, specifically during the Reclaimer sale, although I can't find the quote right now. Rest assured you're not crazy.

 

[staticneuron]

LASER weaponry isn't fictional. It's been in development since the 1960s. As for visibility, that's a good generalized point about a vacuum, but even space has areas where particles, debris, etc are present which would make a LASER's continuous beam visible. An unrealistic beam portrayal is a greater issue than its stylized visibility.

I already addressed that in a post you somehow skipped over

The reason why I point out using lasers as weapons being more fiction is not because it cannot be done but more to the fact that it is horribly inefficient. By the time we spend the time to create a decent size power source that can provide the amount of power required for lasers to be effective, we would have simply designed a more effective and practical weapon that is more flexible. But it is in sci fi alot because laser weapons "look" cool and not to accurately reflect what we will be using in the future. Such as previously discussed, the idea of dogfighting in the far future most likely would be considered primitive.

And yes when in a position where a laser passes through an area where it will scatter the light then it would be possible. But the major issues with that is there are alot of lasers that are outside of the visible spectrum and space is so large that the spaces you mention would be more on the rare side than often. Also because of the real world limitation on lasers the beam portrayal is a moot subject because a laser based weapon or what you think might be a laser based weapon 500 years in the future most likely would not work like anything we know today. Edit: For maximum mental imagery imagine trying to explain the full functionality of an iphone to someone from the 1500's.

It's a game guys, gameplay and general enjoyment still counts. AI fighting AI with invisible weapons and no sound would be a tad boring.

Indeed. Some things in real life are simply...... not fun.

Pretty sure I heard the same thing, specifically during the Reclaimer sale, although I can't find the quote right now. Rest assured you're not crazy.

As an explorer I for one would find it awesome to find an alien space faring creature on a derelict ship.

 

[Kabouter]

Do you think you will melt down the freelancer?

These ships will be decidedly less versatile and maneuverable.

Still not sure, have a few days left to decide. Of course the Freelancer doesn't have LTI, so if I change my mind, I could CCU the hull into an LTI Freelancer later anyway. I'd just be out some money, but not much else. And well, when it comes to versatility, I was planning to use the MAX for trade and nothing else anyway. As far as manoeuvrability goes, that's of course unfortunate, but at the same time, how manoeuvrable are you to begin with compared to the ships that will be attacking you?

Elite has 400 billion star systems; Star Citizen has 400 billion gameplay systems. The journey never ends.

Edit:

I don't think it's really a power creep. They have way higher cargo capacities than the previous ships, but at the same time they're a lot less versatile to compensate. Combat is barely an option by default, and evasive maneuvers are going to be hell when laden with cargo. Even putting the inertia from cargo mass aside, remember the whole internal ship forces thing? Try putting a lot of torque on that spindle. A high G turn will likely snap the larger ships in half.

They say you can potentially outfit the larger ones with extra turrets and such for additional defense, but that comes at the expense of storage, and you're still going to have to play the porcupine strategy in combat. Sit around and hope your ship lasts long enough for your turrets take out the aggressors - all the while hoping that the attacker doesn't manage to blow off one of the thin and delicate mast arms holding a substantial amount of cargo to the ship. (In the case of turrets attached to those arms, you'd be simultaneously losing your defensive abilities as well.)

Well my point is that the capacity of the hull series is larger than that of other ships to such a degree that even considering expenses on mercenaries to escort you, I can't imagine you wouldn't be much more profitable in the end. I'm also worried that the insane volume of trade Hull pilots will engage in will depress margins to such a degree that people with what are now tiny trade ships like the Freelancer MAX are going to find it barely worth it to engage in trade at all.

 

[staticneuron]

Still not sure, have a few days left to decide. Of course the Freelancer doesn't have LTI, so if I change my mind, I could CCU the hull into an LTI Freelancer later anyway. I'd just be out some money, but not much else. And well, when it comes to versatility, I was planning to use the MAX for trade and nothing else anyway. As far as manoeuvrability goes, that's of course unfortunate, but at the same time, how manoeuvrable are you to begin with compared to the ships that will be attacking you?



Well my point is that the capacity of the hull series is larger than that of other ships to such a degree that even considering expenses on mercenaries to escort you, I can't imagine you wouldn't be much more profitable in the end. I'm also worried that the insane volume of trade Hull pilots will engage in will depress margins to such a degree that people with what are now tiny trade ships like the Freelancer MAX are going to find it barely worth it to engage in trade at all.

Maybe it is about "what" you trade. I imagine it would make more sense if the freelancers have more weapons which would make it more enviable type of transport for more expensive items versus large cargo ships with poor defense. It would make sense for cargo ships to transport things of low value but at a large amount so there is profit and that would deter pirates because the cargo would be not worth the effort because of the available storage space on ships that would be used for piracy.

 

[CTLance]

Well, that kinda sorta puts a damper on my Starfarer honeymoon. Those hulls massively outclass the old gal.

Ah whatever. I shall not yield. I have my explorer Freelancer, my cargo Starfarer, and my pirate Cutlance. No need for more fleet tweaking.

 

[Kabouter]

Maybe it is about "what" you trade. I imagine it would make more sense if the freelancers have more weapons which would make it more enviable type of transport for more expensive items versus large cargo ships with poor defense. It would make sense for cargo ships to transport things of low value but at a large amount so there is profit and that would deter pirates because the cargo would be not worth the effort because of the available storage space on ships that would be used for piracy.

Yeah, but the point is of course that you can hire escorts if you trade similarly high margin items at much greater volumes and come out way, way ahead whilst probably being even more secure than a loner in his Freelancer. The only upside I can think of is person/troop transport. There was the thing about smaller jumppoints, but CR said a while back the Freelancer won't be able to go through small ones, just medium ones and larger.

 

[Zalusithix]

Yeah, but the point is of course that you can hire escorts if you trade similarly high margin items at much greater volumes and come out way, way ahead whilst probably being even more secure than a loner in his Freelancer. The only upside I can think of is person/troop transport. There was the thing about smaller jumppoints, but CR said a while back the Freelancer won't be able to go through small ones, just medium ones and larger.

Generally speaking, high value/margin stuff tends to be limited in nature. Finding enough of it to fill a Hull might be a substantial challenge from a supply standpoint. If you're not carrying more than a Freelancer, yet have to pay for escorts and attract more attention because of them, then you're in a worse situation. Then there's the fact that you still have to be able to afford the transported cargo to begin with. Even with a plentiful supply of something, it might take a significant period of time before you could afford to fully utilize the capacity.

 

[Kabouter]

Generally speaking, high value/margin stuff tends to be limited in nature. Finding enough of it to fill a Hull might be a substantial challenge from a supply standpoint. If you're not carrying more than a Freelancer, yet have to pay for escorts and attract more attention because of them, then you're in a worse situation. Then there's the fact that you still have to be able to afford the transported cargo to begin with. Even with a plentiful supply of something, it might take a significant period of time before you could afford to fully utilize the capacity.

Well, you could always fill it up with multiple types of high value cargo, and yes, I obviously recognize that at the start of the game, no one will be filling up the bigger hulls on trade runs. But in terms of long term impact on trade? Could be pretty rough for those in other cargo ships.

 

[Zalusithix]

Well, you could always fill it up with multiple types of high value cargo, and yes, I obviously recognize that at the start of the game, no one will be filling up the bigger hulls on trade runs. But in terms of long term impact on trade? Could be pretty rough for those in other cargo ships.

Yes, but if you do mixed cargo, you either get escorts, or take a risk. Escorts basically scream "I have expensive stuff here that you want!". If all you were doing was transporting a bunch of bulk goods with low margins, most pirates wouldn't bother to attack you even without escorts. It's not like they'd be able to do much with that cargo anyhow. Thus pirate mentality will theoretically shift to "attack hulls with escorts on sight if at all feasible". Sure it's a risk for them, but a guaranteed payout in the end. Meanwhile they'll run scans on other hulls and let them go if nothing good is on board just to keep un-escorted mixed value runs from becoming commonplace.

 

[Kabouter]

Yes, but if you do mixed cargo, you either get escorts, or take a risk. Escorts basically scream "I have expensive stuff here that you want!". If all you were doing was transporting a bunch of bulk goods with low margins, most pirates wouldn't bother to attack you even without escorts. It's not like they'd be able to do much with that cargo anyhow. Thus pirate mentality will theoretically shift to "attack hulls with escorts on sight if at all feasible". Sure it's a risk for them, but a guaranteed payout in the end. Meanwhile they'll run scans on other hulls and let them go if nothing good is on board just to keep un-escorted mixed value runs from becoming commonplace.

By your logic, you'd think the risk wouldn't shift towards escorted big ships, since there's a risk there if it's properly escorted, but the risk would shift to smaller unescorted ships, like, say, a Freelancer

 

[Zalusithix]

By your logic, you'd think the risk wouldn't shift towards escorted big ships, since there's a risk there if it's properly escorted, but the risk would shift to smaller unescorted ships, like, say, a Freelancer

No, my logic is that an escorted Hull is going to have a payout in the end. There's a risk attacking it because of those escorts, but there's most definitely a reward at the end of that risk if successful. Pirates will work together to raid those targets knowing that their time is well spent doing so.

The smaller, non-Hull, un-escorted ships are better armed, more maneuverable, and less certain to be carrying anything to begin with. You'll have a harder time getting groups of pirates to cooperate by searching every minor ship they see that may or may not be carrying anything of worth. Thus those ships would more naturally be the targets of lone pirates. In the case of lone pirates, the other ships fare a much better chance of survival than the Hulls will.

Then there's the fact that the non-Hulls are internal cargo. If the person in the other ship doesn't acquiesce to the pirates, they'll either have to blow him up (potentially losing the cargo in the explosion, or knock the ship out of commission and board him to steal the cargo. In the case of the Hulls, all they need to do is damage the mast like superstructure and the cargo will be liberated from the ship.

 

[Shy]

Here's a vid that might help you guys decide if you want to get the ship. Star Citizen: Should you buy a Hull Series?

 

[Starbuck2907]

So, I bought a Hull-B with LTI.

I was very on the fence about buying a cargo transport only vessel, but I decided that owning another LTI ship would give me another permanent play option when the game starts.... so, I went ahead and bought.

 

[KKRT00]

So when the "open world" goes live, will we for example be able to come across a derelict spaceship in orbit of a dead world, board the ship, get out on foot and go into first person mode to explore the ship? Then perhaps come across dead crew members and realize there's creatures on board? Maybe then have to self destruct the ship and get out of it with logs to turn in for bounty/money/proof of what happened to it?

Or is that wishful thinking? I swear I thought Chris mentioned he wanted to implement something like this in the persistent game.

Yes, thats exactly the plan. They havent talked about escaping with logs, but i would assume thats a gameplay possibility they considered, especially as its been covered in movies quite a lot.

 

[Dezeer]

80 freaking million dollars. I remember backing at around 11 million point and wondering if we will reach that 21 million point.



Has there been any discussion how maneuverable these Hull ships will be in space and in jump points compared to the other ships?

 

[Zalusithix]

Has there been any discussion how maneuverable these Hull ships will be in space and in jump points compared to the other ships?

If maneuverability is of any concern to you, then you're looking at the wrong ship. =P What jump points you can use will depend on what Hull you have. There's a huge difference between the A and the E size wise.

 

[Dezeer]

If maneuverability is of any concern to you, then you're looking at the wrong ship. =P What jump points you can use will depend on what Hull you have. There's a huge difference between the A and the E size wise.

I am not going to buy any Hull ship, I have my 315p that I am happy with.

Aren't there also different intensity jump points, as well as different size, or is that something that I have thought up myself? If there is different intensities in jump points wouldn't it mean that a ship like Freelancer MAX might be able to take less congested jump points, that are harder to travel, compared to Hull A, increasing the risk for Hull A to come on contact with pirates.

 

[Dictator93]

I am not going to buy any Hull ship, I have my 315p that I am happy with.

Aren't there also different intensity jump points, as well as different size, or is that something that I have thought up myself? If there is different intensities in jump points wouldn't it mean that a ship like Freelancer MAX might be able to take less congested jump points, that are harder to travel, compared to Hull A, increasing the risk for Hull A to come on contact with pirates.

There are different jump points that different sized ships can traverse. It is one of their ways of incentivizing small explorer ships or vanguard military ships. They are like... more direct, require less time.. etc...

 

[Zalusithix]

I am not going to buy any Hull ship, I have my 315p that I am happy with.

Aren't there also different intensity jump points, as well as different size, or is that something that I have thought up myself? If there is different intensities in jump points wouldn't it mean that a ship like Freelancer MAX might be able to take less congested jump points, that are harder to travel, compared to Hull A, increasing the risk for Hull A to come on contact with pirates.

I think something was once mentioned about maneuvering within jump points, but honestly I'd not put much stock in the finer points of jump point travel currently.

There are different jump points that different sized ships can traverse. It is one of their ways of incentivizing small explorer ships or vanguard military ships. They are like... more direct, require less time.. etc...

Of course, we still don't have classifications yet on jump point sizes and what ship size can pass through a given type. We also don't know the quantity ratio between the sizes of the jump points. As such, it's hard to say how much of a role jump point size limitations are going to play.

 

[SneakyStephan]

So when the "open world" goes live, will we for example be able to come across a derelict spaceship in orbit of a dead world, board the ship, get out on foot and go into first person mode to explore the ship? Then perhaps come across dead crew members and realize there's creatures on board? Maybe then have to self destruct the ship and get out of it with logs to turn in for bounty/money/proof of what happened to it?

Or is that wishful thinking? I swear I thought Chris mentioned he wanted to implement something like this in the persistent game.

Sounds like you're imagining dead space gameplay/epicness in some side mission/optional area

I don't see that happening unless they at some point in time dedicate an entire expansion to that.

You'll be lucky if it's like alien breed.

 

[Shy]

Do we have a wealthy gafer that can buy the hull-e for our org. ?

 

[Geist-]

So when the "open world" goes live, will we for example be able to come across a derelict spaceship in orbit of a dead world, board the ship, get out on foot and go into first person mode to explore the ship? Then perhaps come across dead crew members and realize there's creatures on board? Maybe then have to self destruct the ship and get out of it with logs to turn in for bounty/money/proof of what happened to it?

Or is that wishful thinking? I swear I thought Chris mentioned he wanted to implement something like this in the persistent game.

Sounds like you're imagining dead space gameplay/epicness in some side mission/optional area

I don't see that happening unless they at some point in time dedicate an entire expansion to that.

You'll be lucky if it's like alien breed.

I found the video where he talks about it:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=RpHGEtOXFvE&t=27m40s

"Alien creature scurrying on the ceiling." So it's something they're thinking about, not sure if it will be something at launch though.

 

[Mylene]

Do we have a wealthy gafer that can buy the hull-e for our org. ?

just melted a few ships for the Hull-E, also have an Idris-P, Carrack and a few smaller ships. Would be awesome to find some gaffers to share the experience

Spoiler

and profit

with.

 

[Shy]

just melted a few ships for the Hull-E, also have an Idris-P, Carrack and a few smaller ships. Would be awesome to find some gaffers to share the experience

Spoiler

and profit

with.

that's awesome, our org is going to god-tier, if you want to be in the gaf-org that is.

 

[Kabouter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GEGyBgZ8Ko
Damn.

 

[Raticus79]

just melted a few ships for the Hull-E, also have an Idris-P, Carrack and a few smaller ships. Would be awesome to find some gaffers to share the experience

Spoiler

and profit

with.

that's awesome, our org is going to god-tier, if you want to be in the gaf-org that is.

Yup, I'd be up for that. Here's that link: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/NEOGAF/members

Hopefully they enable that fleet view sometime. It would be nice to see what we have so far.

 

[~Kinggi~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GEGyBgZ8Ko
Damn.

I dont even know what im looking at. Whats with the boxes?

 

[Mylene]

that's awesome, our org is going to god-tier, if you want to be in the gaf-org that is.

already joined

 

[Raticus79]

I dont even know what im looking at. Whats with the boxes?

They're freight containers for cargo. The hull series has this unfolding tree structure which carries the cargo externally. Kind of like stacking up on a freight train (or supertanker for the Hull E), but in those 4 directions.

 

[Zalusithix]

that's awesome, our org is going to god-tier, if you want to be in the gaf-org that is.

Eh, GAF's org is pretty tiny. With 130 members, it's around the 135th largest org. There's undoubtedly GAF members who haven't joined it yet (such as myself), and it will grow in the future, but it is unlikely that it will ever compete with the big boys on either member or ship counts. It also doesn't really have a focus outside of being a social org.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but god-tier it is not.

I dont even know what im looking at. Whats with the boxes?

The crates are cargo. The Hull series carries the cargo externally.

 

[Dictator93]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GEGyBgZ8Ko
Damn.

That thing is mind-warpingly huge.

 

[~Kinggi~]

They're freight containers for cargo. The hull series has this unfolding tree structure which carries the cargo externally. Kind of like stacking up on a freight train (or supertanker for the Hull E), but in those 4 directions.

Damn. Thats some major playing at the E level. Gonna need a fleet to guard that shit. I dont know how they are gonna pull off netcode that works well with that type of stuff...

 

[RK9039]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GEGyBgZ8Ko
Damn.

I want one.

Trading is all I'm going to be doing, just like in Elite. I really like the design of these trading ships a lot more, being able to see the actual crates is very cool.

 

[Raticus79]

Damn. Thats some major playing at the E level. Gonna need a fleet to guard that shit. I dont know how they are gonna pull off netcode that works well with that type of stuff...

Yeah, the disparity in shipping capacity is crazy. Here are the numbers Kabouter quoted earlier:

"Cargo capacity comparison:
-Hull A - 75
-Hull B - 600
-Hull C - 4800
-Hull D - 21600
-Hull E - 153600"

For the netcode, it wouldn't be tracking that many objects since containers each have many tons and they don't need to be tracked separately until they're detached from the parent ship. Still a pretty tall order if one's been blown apart.

 

[Dictator93]

Guys I just realized something.

These ships can blow up. What will one of these explosions and ship deaths look like given how monstrously detailed the the gladius' are?

Crap.

 

[Shy]

already joined

Noice!!!

Eh, GAF's org is pretty tiny. With 130 members, it's around the 135th largest org. There's undoubtedly GAF members who haven't joined it yet (such as myself), and it will grow in the future, but it is unlikely that it will ever compete with the big boys on either member or ship counts. It also doesn't really have a focus outside of being a social org.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but god-tier it is not.

 

[Raticus79]

Guys I just realized something.

These ships can blow up. What will one of these explosions and ship deaths look like given how monstrously detailed the the gladius' are?

Crap.

Yeah, it could make for a pretty ugly spike in data transmission required at the time of the explosion, but then it'll settle down as things continue along those established paths. They could simplify it by tending to break things into large chunks (which each have a single velocity and rotation). If they try to have lots of small parts breaking off and players having a consistent view of them all as they collide with players and other objects, that'll be tough.

 

[Zalusithix]

Yeah, it could make for a pretty ugly spike in data transmission required at the time of the explosion and then smaller ones as parts collide, but then it'll settle down as things continue along those established paths. They could simplify it by tending to break things into large chunks (which each have a single velocity and rotation), but if they try to have lots of small parts breaking off and players having a consistent view of them all as they collide with players and other objects, that'll be tough.

The bigger issue is each crate is theoretically its own entity filled with distinctly different goods. Assuming the crates don't incinerate upon ship destruction, the Hull E will positively litter space with storage crates. Ugh... Just thinking about that makes my head hurt.

 

[Raticus79]

The bigger issue is each crate is theoretically its own entity filled with distinctly different goods. Assuming the crates don't incinerate upon ship destruction, the Hull E will positively litter space with storage crates. Ugh... Just thinking about that makes my head hurt.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle that for sure. Even if they limit it to crates either being intact or vaporized (no cargo spilling out of individual containers), that's still a lot of free-floating storage units to deal with.

 

[Zalusithix]

It'll be interesting to see how they handle that for sure. Even if they limit it to crates either being intact or vaporized (no cargo spilling out of individual containers), that's still a lot of free-floating storage units to deal with.

New strategy for the fantastically wealthy orgs. Self destruct a fully loaded Hull E and turn an area of space into a man made asteroid belt.

 

[staticneuron]

It'll be interesting to see how they handle that for sure. Even if they limit it to crates either being intact or vaporized (no cargo spilling out of individual containers), that's still a lot of free-floating storage units to deal with.

But would they be?

The units look like they are self propelled here.

 

[Zalusithix]

But would they be?



The units look like they are self propelled here.

One would assume that with the absence of any central command (the Hull), they'd just be dumb bricks in space.

 

[ASTROID2]

Is this the Freelancer redesign? The cockpit looks just like the Freelancer but it gets much bigger in the back.

https://vimeo.com/125961399

 

[kutthoat5150]

With all the redesigns on ships, hangars, environments, assets etc, is it safe to assume that the first 6-12 months of development don't count? So this game has actually only been in development for not even 2 years.

 

[Rephin]

Hey guys, I'm kinda new to Star Citizen (and pretty overwhelmed with information about the game), and I'm thinking about joining the GAF org. Are there any requirements to get in? Right now all I have is a Super Hornet.