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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting

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Dictator93

Member
Jeebus that FPS post. My body is definitely not read for that.

I love the emphasis on animation they are doing for quick tuns and stuff, giving it animation priority. Sounds fantastic to me.

Sshot_Two.jpg


/splooge
 
Sanctuary

Sanctuary

Member
By the time this game is released, Nvidia should have released their 6gb Pascal card. Which would be the perfect time to upgrade.
 
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Poodlestrike

Banned
FINALLY got around to downloading, installing, updating, and messing around with this... God, even at low settings, dropped resolution on my laptop, it's gorgeous. Definitely going to have to build a rig for this. I'm going back to work in the fall, might put something together as a Christmas gift for myself :D

But one thing's for certain: I'm gonna need HOTAS. Ended up failing the training mission because I lost track of my orientation and drifted out of the combat area.
 
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Pomerlaw

Member
I don't give a damn about the FPS module until they fix the awful mouse arcadey FPS-in-space ships. I'd like to, but I'm too upset about how they are handling the issue.
 
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RK9039

Member
Pomerlaw said:
I don't give a damn about the FPS module until they fix the awful mouse arcadey FPS-in-space ships. I'd like to, but I'm too upset about how they are handling the issue.
Click to expand...

Aren't the controls and the "arcadey" feel of SC the way space sims have always been? The ships in Elite Dangerous play a bit differently because the ships feel more like military fighter jets than spaceships because there is a lot of rolling involved and yawing is basically useless.

SC is more about yawing like the old space games, so there's not really anything to fix. I don't really mind either methods.
 
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Dubbedinenglish

Banned
RK9039 said:
Aren't the controls and the "arcadey" feel of SC the way space sims have always been? The ships in Elite Dangerous play a bit differently because the ships feel more like military fighter jets than spaceships because there is a lot of rolling involved and yawing is basically useless.

SC is more about yawing like the old space games, so there's not really anything to fix. I don't really mind either methods.
Click to expand...

Not really. It's more the extreme power of maneuvering thrusters and instant stops. If you can get it cheap look for Freespace 2 on GOG or steam. Even download Diaspora (free). These game have 6dof and still are the gold standard to how space sims should fly. SC right now has movement for akin to a FPS, and has the whole "aim to fly" issue. This is my biggest concern with the game, that the core gameplay is going to be shallow as it is now.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Dubbedinenglish said:
Not really. It's more the extreme power of maneuvering thrusters and instant stops. If you can get it cheap look for Freespace 2 on GOG or steam. Even download Diaspora (free). These game have 6dof and still are the gold standard to how space sims should fly. SC right now has movement for akin to a FPS, and has the whole "aim to fly" issue. This is my biggest concern with the game, that the core gameplay is going to be shallow as it is now.
Click to expand...

Ship combat isn't exactly the "core gameplay" of Star Citizen though. At least it's no more core than any other part. It is in the case of S42, but for SC is everything intermixed together. The FPS part, the ship combat, the exploration, the trading, the racing, the sub jobs of manning ship posts for both combat and non combat roles. There are plenty of situations where ship combat will be something you'll want to actively avoid.

Don't get me wrong, it is an integral part of the game, so CIG should strive to make it the best that it can be. Even if they nail the ship combat, however, SC gameplay will be shallow if that's all there is. SC is going for the proverbial "the result is greater than the sum of its parts".

That and frankly, no matter what they do, they're going to piss off somebody. There's way too many personal preferences out there to cater to.
 
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Pomerlaw

Member
Dubbedinenglish said:
Not really. It's more the extreme power of maneuvering thrusters and instant stops. If you can get it cheap look for Freespace 2 on GOG or steam. Even download Diaspora (free). These game have 6dof and still are the gold standard to how space sims should fly. SC right now has movement for akin to a FPS, and has the whole "aim to fly" issue. This is my biggest concern with the game, that the core gameplay is going to be shallow as it is now.
Click to expand...

+1, after being promised by Ben that controls would never be like Freelancer. They are almost exactly like Freelancer, except you are in the ship. Its all about aiming.

They have turned everything upside down from the original plan and now they are afraid to piss off mouse players, which have a clear advantage with the chase the mouse controls. Ah well... My last hope is for the multicrew release to balance things out, but after a year of AC, it is really thin.
 
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Dubbedinenglish

Banned
Zalusithix said:
Ship combat isn't exactly the "core gameplay" of Star Citizen though. At least it's no more core than any other part. It is in the case of S42, but for SC is everything intermixed together. The FPS part, the ship combat, the exploration, the trading, the racing, the sub jobs of manning ship posts for both combat and non combat roles. There are plenty of situations where ship combat will be something you'll want to actively avoid.

Don't get me wrong, it is an integral part of the game, so CIG should strive to make it the best that it can be. Even if they nail the ship combat, however, SC gameplay will be shallow if that's all there is. SC is going for the proverbial "the result is greater than the sum of its parts".

That and frankly, no matter what they do, they're going to piss off somebody. There's way too many personal preferences out there to cater to.
Click to expand...

The main interaction between players will be ship to ship combat. Either with pirates, fighting Vanduuls, player encounters, S&R, advocacy, etc etc. Even basic flight as it is now is cumbersome with fine movements (see getting out of the hangar). Over a year of non-answers and very little core flight changes have me worried personally.


To the bolded: I definitely agree but if they be clear on what the plan is and to make these systems work with logic behind them it would be a lot less emotional than it is now.
 
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CSJ

Member
Dubbedinenglish said:
Not really. It's more the extreme power of maneuvering thrusters and instant stops. If you can get it cheap look for Freespace 2 on GOG or steam. Even download Diaspora (free). These game have 6dof and still are the gold standard to how space sims should fly. SC right now has movement for akin to a FPS, and has the whole "aim to fly" issue. This is my biggest concern with the game, that the core gameplay is going to be shallow as it is now.
Click to expand...

This is what I'm disliking the most, although they've somewhat added some inertia to some parts of ship control it does feel like you've figuratively opened the console, typed noclip and that's your ship physics.

Their reasons are not only thrusters, but spinning gyro's (of which don't actually exist, just they say it's why they can turn so fast) but it's lacking the feeling of equal and opposite reactions to counter.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
CSJ said:
This is what I'm disliking the most, although they've somewhat added some inertia to some parts of ship control it does feel like you've figuratively opened the console, typed noclip and that's your ship physics.

Their reasons are not only thrusters, but spinning gyro's (of which don't actually exist, just they say it's why they can turn so fast) but it's lacking the feeling of equal and opposite reactions to counter.
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Spinning gyos? I didn't think that reaction wheels / CMGs were mechanisms for fast attitude control. If anything they'd seem to be a hindrance to being able to rapidly shift directions.

Teknopathetic said:
"Ship combat isn't exactly the "core gameplay" of Star Citizen though."


Oh get real. It absolutely is.
Click to expand...
Is ship combat the core gameplay of ED? Same deal there. Combat is one thing that you can do. It is an integral part, but it is not the only part.
 
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Dictator93

Member
Teknopathetic said:
"Ship combat isn't exactly the "core gameplay" of Star Citizen though."


Oh get real. It absolutely is.
Click to expand...
Given the actual size of the universe in terrestrial vs. space, it only makes sense that most of the time will be spent on ships. Most of the professions have something to do with space directly, and every ship has the chance to be shot up. Numbers make this so.
Though, I think a good portion of the game and professions will be related to exclusively FPS activites.
 
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Teknopathetic

Member
"Is ship combat the core gameplay of ED? Same deal there. Combat is one thing that you can do. It is an integral part, but it is not the only part."


Of course it's not the only part. That doesn't mean it's not the core of the game. Every other aspect of gameplay revolves around ship combat.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Teknopathetic said:
Of course it's not the only part. That doesn't mean it's not the core of the game. Every other aspect of gameplay revolves around ship combat.
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The way I see it is that ships themselves are the glue that everything revolves around. The ship to ship combat is major part that gets attached to the glue.

Exploration, for instance, is tied to the ships. Combat can happen while exploring, but that's tangential to the exploration itself. What'll make a break exploration is how the exploration itself is handled - not how well your ship behaves during combat while exploring. Likewise combat can happen while mining. But whether mining is any fun in the long run is going to come down to how fun it is itself. If the mining is only fun because the risk of combat, then you might as well be dedicating your time to ship combat in a fighter. Ditto to trading and so forth. Excellent combat can help augment those things, but will not make them worthwhile on its own.

Star Citizen is the amalgam of all its parts. The "core gameplay", if you want to call it that, is how it manages to combine all the individual parts together in the PU. If they can't blend the individual aspects together seamlessly, then the game will fail even if one part is exceptional. On the flip side, it'll be successful if they can blend everything together in a way that works even if one aspect isn't perfect on its own merits.
 
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Teknopathetic

Member
"Exploration, for instance, is tied to the ships. Combat can happen while exploring, but that's tangential to the exploration itself. What'll make a break exploration is how the exploration itself is handled - not how well your ship behaves during combat while exploring. Likewise combat can happen while mining. But whether mining is any fun in the long run is going to come down to how fun it is itself. If the mining is only fun because the risk of combat, then you might as well be dedicating your time to ship combat in a fighter. Ditto to trading and so forth. Excellent combat can help augment those things, but will not make them worthwhile on its own. "


The fact that ship combat is attached to all these scenarios only proves my point. I also disagree with your conclusion. If combat is poor, it brings the experience down for each of those scenarios by forcing players to encounter something that isn't interesting.

To put it another way when looking at roles in the PU:

Players can avoid exploration entirely.
Players can avoid mining entirely.
Players can avoid trading entirely.
Players can *not* avoid ship combat entirely. And that is why it's important that it is very good, because it IS the core of the game.

This goes doubly for SQ42.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Teknopathetic said:
"Exploration, for instance, is tied to the ships. Combat can happen while exploring, but that's tangential to the exploration itself. What'll make a break exploration is how the exploration itself is handled - not how well your ship behaves during combat while exploring. Likewise combat can happen while mining. But whether mining is any fun in the long run is going to come down to how fun it is itself. If the mining is only fun because the risk of combat, then you might as well be dedicating your time to ship combat in a fighter. Ditto to trading and so forth. Excellent combat can help augment those things, but will not make them worthwhile on its own. "


The fact that ship combat is attached to all these scenarios only proves my point. I also disagree with your conclusion. If combat isn't poor, it brings the experience down for each of those scenarios by forcing players to encounter something that isn't interesting.

To put it another way:

Players can avoid exploration entirely.
Players can avoid mining entirely.
Players can avoid trading entirely.
Players can *not* avoid ship combat entirely. And that is why it's important that it is very good, because it IS the core of the game.
Click to expand...

Combat isn't attached to them. You can encounter combat while doing them. You can also mine while exploring. You can trade while exploring. You can do combat while exploring. That doesn't mean those things are attached to exploring. They're independent, yet interlinked gameplay aspects. Combat is just an aspect that's more frequent in the universe. Unless, of course, you're out in the middle of nowhere or in a heavily secured system - in which case combat will likely be the least seen aspect.

Also, you might be able to directly avoid exploring, mining, and trading yourself, but if Star Citizen turns out the be the game it promises to be, then you won't be able to avoid running across other people that will be doing those things. Unless of course those other fundamental pillars are boring in which case nobody will be doing them. That just means the game failed. The economy in the PU will be dependent on people doing things other than going pew pew with their ships.

I'm not arguing that combat shouldn't be good. I'm just saying that combat isn't what will define whether Star Citizen is shallow or not. SQ42 is combat focused. Star Citizen is more than that.
 
staticneuron

staticneuron

Member
Teknopathetic said:
To put it another way when looking at roles in the PU:

Players can avoid exploration entirely.
Players can avoid mining entirely.
Players can avoid trading entirely.
Players can *not* avoid ship combat entirely. And that is why it's important that it is very good, because it IS the core of the game.

This goes doubly for SQ42.
Click to expand...


People can avoid combat if they are dedicated racers. It didn't look like there were any weapons in the Murray Cup. And what makes you think people cannot avoid combat in those scenarios. Choosing to flee instead of fighting is avoiding combat.

EDIT: I can't talk though. Despite having a dedicated exploration fleet, I have two ships dedicated to wrecking someones day.
 
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Pomerlaw

Member
It's not just about combat, it is about the flight model / controls. They have to find a way for the flying to feel great and important. Giving ships some inertia would be a start.

Avoiding combat is possible, but since the first trailer in 2012, it has mostly been about combat.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Danthrax said:
You're gonna love watching me be an info runner =P
Click to expand...

It'd be more interesting seeing you try to participate in combat with that thing. ;)

staticneuron said:
People can avoid combat if they are dedicated racers. It didn't look like there were any weapons in the Murray Cup. And what makes you think people cannot avoid combat in those scenarios. Choosing to flee instead of fighting is avoiding combat.

EDIT: I can't talk though. Despite having a dedicated exploration fleet, I have two ships dedicated to wrecking someones day.
Click to expand...

To my recollection there are two race types. One without weapons, and one with. But yes, for somebody heavily invested into racing, combat is barely going to be on the radar.
 
staticneuron

staticneuron

Member
Pomerlaw said:
It's not just about combat, it is about the flight model / controls. They have to find a way for the flying to feel great and important. Giving ships some inertia would be a start.
Click to expand...

I really enjoyed starlancer back in the day. because of tech reasons I have yet to try out new flight mechanics. iirc it is not close to end representation until they implement multicrew and physics system. Is it that bad? I haven't heard that many people complain about it.
 
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Teknopathetic

Member
" And what makes you think people cannot avoid combat in those scenarios. Choosing to flee instead of fighting is avoiding combat."


I disagree. Choosing to flee is an option for resolving combat, an option that might not always pan out depending on what you're up against. If you're playing a JRPG with a flee option and you always flee, you're still encountering combat. Electronic warfare/counter-warfare are also aspects of combat.
 
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RK9039

Member
Teknopathetic said:
" And what makes you think people cannot avoid combat in those scenarios. Choosing to flee instead of fighting is avoiding combat."

I disagree. Choosing to flee is an option for resolving combat, an option that might not always pan out depending on what you're up against. If you're playing a JRPG with a flee option and you always flee, you're still encountering combat.
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree with that. You can't really avoid combat completely because you can bump into other players who might want your cargo if you're a trader, but you can choose to run away which is what I do in Elite
or get blown up because you replaced all your weapons for more cargo space
.

I'm just a coffee merchant.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
Danthrax said:
I choose to be a day trader on Terra. If I never leave the planet, I'll never be in combat!
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Am I allowed to do bombing runs from space to the atmosphere to destroy your stock market building? Or is planet surface stuff immune to that?

Does the FPS mode work on planet surfaces so someone could shoot you walking to work?

Or is the day trading stuff totally GUI elements, and you don't have a physical body to be shot at? I'm ignorant of all this stuff. :p
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
RK9039 said:
Yeah I agree with that. You can't really avoid combat completely because you can bump into other players who might want your cargo if you're a trader, but you can choose to run away which is what I do in Elite
or get blown up because you replaced all your weapons for more cargo space
.

I'm just a coffee merchant.
Click to expand...

Since when do weapons use cargo space? Weapons go on external hardpoints. Storage is internal. Or do you mean lowering your mass for further jump range? That said, even with weapons, you'll most likely be dead if you try fighting back in something like a T6.
 
T

Teknopathetic

Member
I would also like to step back and point out that this conversation is about how can one strip away as many aspects of the game as possible to avoid combat just so you can say "It's okay if the ship combat's not great because you can do X without it!" which grosses me out a little bit.
 
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