spindoctor
Member
So if fights are never fair because of different reasons, it's okay to let money be one of those reasons as well?
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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: Hangar Module
- Thread starter MrBig
- Start date
I feel like this whole discussion is pointless until we have more details on the economy, the currency purchasing/transfer system and the relative performance of various ships and components. It would be great if Chris Roberts tackled the subject in that Chairman segment though.
spindoctor
Member
Yep, that's pretty much what I've been saying from the start. Right now paying to win is a concern for a many folks (especially non backers) and any details they can provide to assuage that is welcome.
aY227
Member
Why are You trying to dismiss EVE Online argument constantly? You can buy ISK with real money in that game, by selling PLEX and yet there is no pay to win in that game.
Simple question. Have You even played EVE? I'm asking, because i dont think You understand how it works and why am i constantly comparing SC to it.
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Its not really discussion about economics, its discussion about combat and module mechanics. The whole premise of this game, which was addressed many times by Chris, is that skill is the king and modules tiers are not solely upgrades, but choices. They have pros and cons.
This game will feature so many skill based mechanics that it would be impossible to make it pay to win without making next tier of modules exponentially better from previous tiers and Chris already addressed, again countless times, that this wont be a case.
CitizenVectron
Member
Even assuming that all modules will somehow be equal (which they will not be), then there is still the ability to put money in the game to get ships, etc. Or are you arguing that someone who has pledged for an Idris will not have an advantage once they start over someone who only has an Aurora?
There is no end-game, so there is no "winning," but money will definitely put people ahead of others who haven't put it in, provided the money people are also playing the same amount of time. Basically, someone who players 100 hours and has put in $1000 will have better gear, more ships, etc than someone who has put in 100 hours and no money.
There is no end-game, so there is no "winning," but money will definitely put people ahead of others who haven't put it in, provided the money people are also playing the same amount of time. Basically, someone who players 100 hours and has put in $1000 will have better gear, more ships, etc than someone who has put in 100 hours and no money.
Dictator93
Member
I think we should wait for the persistent module before we make assumptions.
masterkajo
Member
I don't get the "put people ahead of others" mentality. I see it more in the lines of real life where there are doctors, teachers, janitors what have you. All have a role to play and some janitor may be much more happy with his life than a high academic doctor, for instance. The game allows you to define your own goals without the need to "compare" to others. That is a huge part what I like about this game.
Sure, when you are a hardcore PvP player you have to get your desired equipment. Now instead of other MMOs where you have to "grind" for hours on end, you can either enjoy the gameplay and put some time in to earn credits to buy these items in-game or you can put real world money in to shortcut the process (e.g. if you only have short time on weekends to play). There is no real problem here. Granted, people who put real world money in will have the equipment faster but you don't need to fight them until you are happy with your equipment.
Regarding big ships like the Idris vs small ones like the Aurora: To run a ship like the Idris you need a crew of 6-10 people and 2-3 small ships in your Idris' hangar bay. This will cost you. The fuel and docking fees for an Idris will also be much bigger than that for an Aurora. Of course, when an Aurora should eventually meet and Idris fully equipped it will most likely not stand a chance but who says you have to fight it? You can just go your own way.
It's just my thoughts on this matter. Besides, we don't even have all the details and informations yet. I bet even CIG doesn't have everything figured out yet.
aY227
Member
Why are You assuming things like same playtime, same ships, same fitting, same conditions. Its completely theoretical, it has nothing to do with real game, thats what i'm trying to say.
There will be people who are more skilled, there will be people who play more, there will be people who are better fitted for a fight, there will be people who play smart and make ambushes or use tricks to win, etc.
People had more ISK, they had more ships than me EVE and i still manage to get almost 96% isk efficiency in PVP, without buying ships for real money.
http://www.bu-fu.org/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=40833
Buying more ships or more modules does not give You advantage in fight, only faster recovery from losses
Having better starting ship is irrelevant, its like saying that its unfair for people who start weeks or months after Star Citizen release.
Also Chris Roberts already said that with skill You can kill anyone even with Aurora.
Comparing starting point to other starting point is pointless, because almost every activity in a game will yield You some profits, so no matter what You will do, You will gain credits and additionally in safer systems matchmaking will put You with AI/Players on Your experience and ship 'levels'.
Let me write You down what can You do in combat and why skill, not modules, matter almost entirely.
You can take damage from environments collisions.
You can take damage to subsystems.
You can overheat Your modules.
You can hack enemies subsystems
You can avoid detection with better management of Your waves signatures.
You manage all system by Yourself, so flight skill and resource management matters the most.
And if this game has resemblance as EVE, the information will be very powerful tool.
Now on the other hand You have different tiers of subsystems and equipment, for example
Tier 1 shield has 500 capacity and 10 second recharge time
Tier 3 shield has 1500 capacity and 20 second recharge
This how the system will work in Star Citizen, any of those modules are better from statistics standpoint, they just work differently, so they force different playstyles.
Combat will be based completely around flying and modules, and resource management skills, not dice and rolls of stats.
Iced_Eagle
Member
Two things I'd say:
1) Yes, they are allowing people to spend money to get UEC which is used to buy ships among other things. However, for the actual game there will be limits as to how much UEC you can buy every month. It's not like I can start the game, drop $1000 and buy all of the coolest shit. We don't know any numbers (because that's pretty far off and it's going to change based on the economy which doesn't exist yet), but let's say that it takes 3 months of buying the max amount of in-game credits before you buy an Idris. It should discourage someone with deep pockets from getting the game and then instantly buying the "best" ships. I hope that RSI tunes it such that hardcore individuals and organizations would be able to make more UEC in-game by playing than they would if they would pay for that UEC.
2) This is still a skill based shooter. This is not like Eve where you can mathematically figure out your DPS and then you just sit back and let the math play out during battle. This is a real-time game. If I'm a player who has played for a year and has the best missiles goes up against another player who just started, that new player could still kill them if they're better at flying and shooting. Think of Counter-Strike. As a new player, I'm just as capable of killing another player who has been playing for 10 years. However, that other player has much more game knowledge about weapons, the movement, maps, etc and they simply have an inherent skill advantage.
There's also the aspect that if a player buys an Idris, they're still going to need to get other players to join them and crew it with them. The game does support NPC's, but skilled players will almost always be able to outgun and outfly NPC's. If you're going to be heading into serious PVP, I would put money on the Idris that has a full 10 player human crew and wouldn't put anything on the Idris with one super rich guy who bought it but only has NPC's to crew it.
Of course, all of this is just talk from RSI and speculation until we get our grubby mitts on the game itself.
It just dawned on me that those are the ships being blasted on the pitch video, the improvement is tremendous:
Can't wait to see how it'll look in 2015.
CitizenVectron
Member
I actually don't have a huge issue with the ability to buy in-game currency with real cash, provided there are very strict limitations. I am simply against people who are saying it won't allow people to skip ahead of others in terms of resource gathering, equipment purchasing, etc.
aY227
Member
Yeah, Star Citizen is more skilled based, because it has more manual combat, collision detection and other factors, but even in EVE You cant fit t2 or deadspace modules and sit back and win with someone who has t1 modules. Except for missiles, the position of Your ship matters and there is tons of module management, resource management and overheat management. Fights are never automated.
Thats why You cant p2w in EVE and in SC it will be even harder, because manual skill will matter even more.
Not to derail this thread too much but the Enemy Starfighter thread isn't exactly active and I know a lot of you would be interested.
Anyway, the developer's blog was just updated with new details, screenshots and a few animated clips. I posted about it here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=100915781#post100915781
It looks incredible.
Anyway, the developer's blog was just updated with new details, screenshots and a few animated clips. I posted about it here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=100915781#post100915781
It looks incredible.
masterkajo
Member
Hangar Patch 11 just released with a lot of bug fixes, improved firing range, new Freelancer cockpit and an all around new and improved Cutlass!! GoGoGo!
DavionStriker
Member
Anyone else getting a "Corrupt data from reliable source" error?
masterkajo
Member
yes, me too. hope it will be fixed soon.
Wait there was ALREADY a firing range? If I had the simple $80 ship or whatever do I have a gun?
Teknopathetic
Member
Yeah, they added the firing range the week (or week after) they announced the DFM delay. Nothing to shoot your load over, it's pretty much just placeholder effects and sound.
They showed some really nice WIP stuff from the SQ42 campaign in the newest Hangar episode:
http://youtu.be/fllp5o5Qkq0?t=4m48s
The mining robots are especially impressive and it looks like we'll be able to own them in the persistent universe.
http://youtu.be/fllp5o5Qkq0?t=4m48s
The mining robots are especially impressive and it looks like we'll be able to own them in the persistent universe.
spindoctor
Member
Surprised this hasn't been posted yet. Someone datamined the Freelancer variants.
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/107053/freelancer-variants
Current speculation is that DUR is a stealth/exploration focused variant, MAX is a high capacity trading variant and MIS is a missile boat.
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/107053/freelancer-variants
"DUR"
"MAX"
"MIS"
Current speculation is that DUR is a stealth/exploration focused variant, MAX is a high capacity trading variant and MIS is a missile boat.
Well that's not fair. How the hell am I supposed to pick just one?
Early Power Rankings:
DUR - The Freelancer is first and foremost my exploration and trading vessel.
MAX - If I need a trading vessel the Freelancer will be it. Do I really want a dedicated trading vessel?
MIS - Missile boats are OP. Boo. I have several fighters that could cover this role. Still though...
Will end up with every variant eventually. Can't wait to play when the game releases in early 2017.
Sexy as hell footage of mining operation on the Hangar today - it's untextured grey block but still - damn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllp5o5Qkq0#t=343
They also showed the missle-loading mechanism of the Corvette. Most games wouldn't animate this or bother explaining how it happens, but it makes the ship so much more interesting and believable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllp5o5Qkq0#t=343
They also showed the missle-loading mechanism of the Corvette. Most games wouldn't animate this or bother explaining how it happens, but it makes the ship so much more interesting and believable.
Mister_Bubbles
Member
*Drools*
Also, the DUR Freelancer is well sexy.
I hope the 300i series (the only ship I own) gets an upgrade, as it is looking pretty sparse compared to pretty much every other ship at this point.
Also, the DUR Freelancer is well sexy.
I hope the 300i series (the only ship I own) gets an upgrade, as it is looking pretty sparse compared to pretty much every other ship at this point.
kutthoat5150
Member
they recently stated that the 300i and constellation are also getting upgrades like the other ships did. It's probably why we haven't gotten any new commercials or brochures recently for older ships
Mister_Bubbles
Member
Oh nice, that is great news. Thanks
Interested to see how they approach it. I assumed, given they are upgrading all the ships with PBR, that there would be at least a basic level of improvement, but there are a few things (such as the low ceiling level and ambiguous cargo department in the 300i) that I would definitely like to see reworked.Maybe they're finding a place to store that 8 tons of cargo, haha
I do hope they don't keep redoing all their work over and over, making little progress in the overall game, though. First they scrapped the Bengal carrier, Hornet and Scythe from the original sizzle reel to make new models with more detail. Then they started tweaking all the starter ships they'd made after the initial hangar release. Now they're converting everything to PBR. I'm getting Duke Nukem Forever vibes from all of that.
Today's Wingman's Hangar restored some faith in me, though. That segment about the work at Foundry 42 was great. The mining base looks amazing, the mining drones are impressive. The news toward the end was interesting in which the Foundry 42 guy said they'd release the first 10 mission of Squadron 42 by the end of the year (December, I'm sure) and release subsequent sets of 10 missions each month thereafter. Basically confirms that Squadron 42's "module" has been delayed from early fall, though.
Dictator93
Member
Thought we could use some higher quality .gifs.
These mining robots are just so awesome.
These mining robots are just so awesome.
The S42 segment on WH was just brilliant. The mining base design is amazing, as are the mining robots. The amount of detail going into this thing is crazy.
I can see myself losing countless hours just flying around with the Rift on my face, admiring the universe. 2018 can't come soon enough.
EDIT: dictator, some gifs/caps of the mining base would be great too!
I can see myself losing countless hours just flying around with the Rift on my face, admiring the universe. 2018 can't come soon enough.
EDIT: dictator, some gifs/caps of the mining base would be great too!
Thought we could use some higher quality .gifs.
These mining robots are just so awesome.
Seeing legitimately out-of-nowhere new content on Wingman's Hanger was awesome. The whole mining colony looks great. I also love the torpedo launching mechanism.
The concepts were part of the last Jump Point, but seeing the ingame stuff and them talking about/showing how astoundingly intricate and grounded all of the design is makes me giddy
This is also something...
It'd be quite understandable if the interior of some of these ships (and other alien ships) aren't finished beyond what is needed for Squadron 42 in time for the initial release of SC.
Whoa! Is this from the subscriber's vault?
It's cool to know all the ships they plan for the Vanduul navy along with their names. That's more than I thought they'd have. (There are 13 ... I was guessing nine or 10.)
kutthoat5150
Member
considering how long the Idris is taking from the first concept art we saw back in summer time, it is a bit concerning how they are going to manage all those huge capital ships on both the human and alien side at such a high level of detail. I think they have around 200 people working for them right now but now I wonder how many they'll need to get this game out before 2015 is over
Given what it'll take for one of those ships to even APPEAR, not to mention be OWNED, I'd be totally okay with it not coming out until like a year after release. It'll take long enough for people to amass the ingame-currency/fight far enough into Vanduul space to even GET to a ship that size anyway, no point in having it right from the start.
kutthoat5150
Member
True but I think they do plan on having them in the single player campaign which is supposedly releasing before the persistent universe part of it so many of those huge ships would need to be completed by then
I don't think they'll have those huge ships in the single-player campaign......... or maybe in a CG scene. They'll save them til the very last moment. Kind of like a DLC/add-on boss in other MMO's.
Yup.
Basic idea is that it's energy conserving, meaning if surfaces reflectivity increases, less light gets to diffuse etc. (Amount of energy arriving and leaving the surface stays same.)
Here is very nice collection of links on PBR enough for a couple of days worth of studying.
http://interplayoflight.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/readings-on-physically-based-rendering/
Cannot wait to see SC when all assets have gone trough the transformation.
Not necessarily, the tech is scalable. Full lighting accuracy will of course be quite expensive though.
Has the basic hangar performance gotten any better or worse in the last 4 months or so? If the performance I was getting with a GTX 760 / 4.5 Ghz 3570k was mediocre and/or had poor anti-aliasing, I hate to think what it will be like if they try to light more than one ship at a time. =P
I might be wrong though, I just feel like even though it is always suggested that optimization comes later, poor performance early can be a bad sign.
Irobot82
Member
How many AAA games have you been apart of that did modular releases? Oh right, just this one cause it's the first of it's kind. Don't worry man, this is all basically pre-alpha type stuff. They'll get things smoothed out.
Edit; We'll all probably need better cards by the time the game comes out anyhow. Enjoy the 760 and save up for release.
BeekleMatter
Member
Is it 2015 yet?
or 2016
Mister_Bubbles
Member
Chris Roberts said:
Interested to see what this turns out to be...
SneakyStephan
Banned
Sexy as hell footage of mining operation on the Hangar today - it's untextured grey block but still - damn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllp5o5Qkq0#t=343
They also showed the missle-loading mechanism of the Corvette. Most games wouldn't animate this or bother explaining how it happens, but it makes the ship so much more interesting and believable.
holy fucking shit at everything
Iced_Eagle
Member
If those mining robots are how mining will work in the Persistent Universe, then I am changing my profession and becoming a miner asap. Just imagine saving up and buying one of those spider robots and being able to customize the paint job and the interior of it with little knick knacks (which was one of the stretch goals!). I would just chill out on some asteroids, jam out to music and blast rocks with my sweet mining laser.