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[BigAT]

Also I remember when Will of the Forsaken was thirty seconds long. Ah, the good ol' days.

Wasn't it actually passive at some point? Maybe that was only during the beta. Regardless, it was pretty ridiculous.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

People who reviewed games in 2004 barely played MMORPG's. Hell, most of the most popular game journalists don't play them now.

What drew people like myself into World of Warcraft was the look at feel of the game and the fluidity of the combat and leveling experience. Those aspects were fantastic for an MMO. No MMO on the market was as "next-gen" looking, unique or well crafted as World of Warcraft was. It's world literally separated it from games like SWG and Everquest.

The combat was extremely smooth, the animations transitioned well and the leveling experience was fresh and fantastic compared to grindfests like EQ and SWG.

Outside of that though WoW was totally broken. From the combat mechanics down to the servers. It was a complete mess.

I still remember when people would claim a class was unbalanced and Blizzard would just ignore it and Blizzard apologists would claim the game was perfectly balanced. Of course now that we have been playing the game for so long and know every single detail about the mechanics involved down to the complicated math we know how broken and unbalanced it was.

In terms of content a lot was bugged, not in the game or placeholders. Most people didn't see a lot of the problems because it took people 3-6 months to hit level 60 on their very first play-through. Unless you were in the beta you didn't level very quickly at all. Simply due to how new it all was, everyone wanting to see everything, world pvp and most people taking their time and not worrying about rushing to end-game. An end-game that wasn't fully implemented and most people didn't even know existed.

It was nothing like it is today. We all know the dozens upon dozens of revamps that have been done to the game. From levelling to mechanics, it has all changed.

That being said Blizzard stuck with it. Since they provided players with such a next-gen and amazing world people kept playing. Blizzard fixed the game and although WoW isn't perfect right now, it's easily the most polished MMO on the market.

MMORPG's don't have that advantage today. Most of the players coming into WoW were new to MMROPG's. What WoW'd them (no pun intended) was not just the world Blizzard created but the CONCEPT of an MMO. A lot of the people I got to play the game couldn't believe you could play on persistent server with thousands of other people. They thought that was the coolest shit every. combine that with an addicting atmosphere and it was a wrap.

Most people who will be playing MMORPG's for the next little while are now completely jaded to that experience. Because of WoW they now understand MMO's and know what they want from one. They expect it to be perfect and will be able to stand there and tell you why it's broken. They will be able to find the little faults in the mechanics of the game they didn't even know existed when they first started playing MMO's. Since alot of people literally grew up playing WoW they have learned in-depth all about the genre. It's like any first-time experience you have. After a while the novelty wears off and the more you learn the more picky you become.

So Bioware and other companies no longer have the advantage WoW did. Which is bringing in millions of new people and selling them not only on your game but the MMORPG genre in general.

In my nerdiest of nerd days I probably played WoW at a higher level then anyone else on this forum. Competing for world firsts, putting videos out on Curse-Gaming and overall just poop socking it for a while. I know the game and genre inside and out and every-way in between. World of Warcraft is easily my favourite game of all time with nothing coming close. That being said, trust me, the game was not polished or mechanically sound at all when it came out. Some aspects were, but they were mainly just aesthetics. Something reviews couldn't get past since most of them couldn't get past level 40.

I won't be playing SWTOR or any game like I did WoW back in the day, as I no longer have the time. However SWTOR has a lot infront of it to become successful. Like I said it doesn't have the advantage WoW did when it came out. An MMORPG has to be as polished as WoW is NOW to survive. Not as good as WoW was when WoW came out. That version of the game is obsolete now.

Still, you are projecting it to what it should have been in an ideal dream world, but like everything else, even to this day, you have to make compromises. Some people don't seem to understand, that it takes a lot of man hours to make a single model from concept to actual implantation with skinning, animation, rendering, QA and bla bla bla.


I am talking about about what was out there at THAT time in 2004. Secondly, it's a over-the-top-statement, to say.

I have been dabbling with MMOs since M59 and UO, and was even introduced to MUDs before that, by my stepfather, and I tell you - Korean or not - There was NOTHING at the time, that I have seen off that was anywhere near as playable as WoW was when it came out. Where you in the beta, with tons of fucks spamming the general forum to quickly release it because it was done... and that was like in jule or july 2004. I clearly remember that.

You know, saying that Reviewers did not play MMORPG, which is a generalization beyond fuck, it also shows that many reviews were able to get into it for the first time. I clearly remember Gamespot staff talking about it, was one of the first games were every class on launch felt playable, and could solo all the way to max level.
The fact that some classes were less refined than others did not make them broke. Classes in SWG was broken. Play that game if you wanna talk about broken. 3 out of 25 abillities worked for some classes. It's not even comparable. Every class could be played to max level.

Sure there was no "end game content"; "pvp", and the servers crashed. Sure. Nobody is arguing that. It's barking up the wrong tree. The whole point is that it's a far cry for everything that had been made from that point on.

And it was NOT only the aesthetics. The game had a quest flow, breadcumb quests, people were taken through long actual stories(many that didnt result in anything or just cut off... ). There was a sense of narrativre and hand holding, and that was why the game quickly grew to a million after launch. Extreme good word of mouth and easy to play, made it able to be what the others couldn't.





As for SWTOR, saying WoW had it easier when it was release... I wouldn't know. On the other hand you might say, that WoW has helped SWTOR because it expanded the genre from a max population in SWG(400.000 Subs) to 11,5 Million. It depends on how you look at it I guess.

 

[Cartman86]

Still, you are projecting it to what it should have been in an ideal dream world, but like everything else, even to this day, you have to make compromises. Some people don't seem to understand, that it takes a lot of man hours to make a single model from concept to actual implantation with skinning, animation, rendering, QA and bla bla bla.


I am talking about about what was out there at THAT time in 2004. Secondly, it's a over-the-top-statement, to say.

I have been dabbling with MMOs since M59 and UO, and was even introduced to MUDs before that, by my stepfather, and I tell you - Korean or not - There was NOTHING at the time, that I have seen off that was anywhere near as playable as WoW was when it came out. Where you in the beta, with tons of fucks spamming the general forum to quickly release it because it was done... and that was like in jule or july 2004. I clearly remember that.

You know, saying that Reviewers did not play MMORPG, which is a generalization beyond fuck, it also shows that many reviews were able to get into it for the first time. I clearly remember Gamespot staff talking about it, was one of the first games were every class on launch felt playable, and could solo all the way to max level.
The fact that some classes were less refined than others did not make them broke. Classes in SWG was broken. Play that game if you wanna talk about broken. 3 out of 25 abillities worked for some classes. It's not even comparable. Every class could be played to max level.

Sure there was no "end game content"; "pvp", and the servers crashed. Sure. Nobody is arguing that. It's barking up the wrong tree. The whole point is that it's a far cry for everything that had been made from that point on.

And it was NOT only the aesthetics. The game had a quest flow, breadcumb quests, people were taken through long actual stories(many that didnt result in anything or just cut off... ). There was a sense of narrativre and hand holding, and that was why the game quickly grew to a million after launch. Extreme good word of mouth and easy to play, made it able to be what the others couldn't.





As for SWTOR, saying WoW had it easier when it was release... I wouldn't know. On the other hand you might say, that WoW has helped SWTOR because it expanded the genre from a max population in SWG(400.000 Subs) to 11,5 Million. It depends on how you look at it I guess.

What about Dark Age of Camelot? I played it for a couple months so it's probably not enough, but I remember WoW feeling a lot like it. The reviews were great too. That being said WoW is easily the most accessible MMO out there with SWG being the coolest to me. Sadly cool isn't enough for me to play SWG anymore, but I think that's why i'm interested in SWTOR. The possibility of taking that WoW experience and putting back into some of the SWG stuff (player housing, space etc.). Plus of course the whole new story and voice acting stuff (sorry EQII).

 

[LAUGHTREY]

SWG would probably be #2 still if it just kept going with the Pre-CU/CU game. But they had to make it into a WoW clone and scare away all the fans who were going to play their game over WoW anyway.

SWG needed some rebalancing, but instead of doing that they remade the game. It was a little grindy and getting into the class system was a little complicated, but it was easy to pick up on. Classes were just giant Talent tress basically.

It was really dumb to hope for but I did wish that they would make this game SWG2 for a time, now all I can hope for is the Housing and space combat being at least similar.

 

[Spire]

SWG would probably be #2 still if it just kept going with the Pre-CU/CU game. But they had to make it into a WoW clone and scare away all the fans who were going to play their game over WoW anyway.

SWG needed some rebalancing, but instead of doing that they remade the game. It was a little grindy and getting into the class system was a little complicated, but it was easy to pick up on. Classes were just giant Talent tress basically.

It was really dumb to hope for but I did wish that they would make this game SWG2 for a time, now all I can hope for is the Housing and space combat being at least similar.

Yeah, if they had stuck to polishing what they had and buiding on that instead of repeatedly trying to twist and contort the game into a WoW clone, they would have a lot more subscribers than the pitiful 10k they have right now.

 

[BattleMonkey]

The game keeps looking better and better. The character models in some of those shots even look somewhat decent now.

The models are looking more realistic now compared to the original reveals which were far more cartoony. Proportions have been toned down and stuff like the jumbo lightsabers have been trimmed as well which is really making the game look better. At first it looked like they were going for the big deformed WoW like aesthetics, thankfully they have fixed that.

 

[Spire]

Oh, and there is a rumor that the space combat is on-rails, like Star Fox. If that's true, space combat is little more than a mini-game and I'd be pretty disappointed.

 

[Trouble]

SWG would probably be #2 still if it just kept going with the Pre-CU/CU game. But they had to make it into a WoW clone and scare away all the fans who were going to play their game over WoW anyway.

SWG needed some rebalancing, but instead of doing that they remade the game. It was a little grindy and getting into the class system was a little complicated, but it was easy to pick up on. Classes were just giant Talent tress basically.

It was really dumb to hope for but I did wish that they would make this game SWG2 for a time, now all I can hope for is the Housing and space combat being at least similar.

No. It would be dead. It was a broken game that was hemmorhaging players. They took increasingly desperate measures to try to salvage a player base with CU and NGE, but it was far from a complete or worthwhile game before that.

Pre-CU/NGE SWG was only fun for people who wanted to do nothing but harvest/craft or dance in a cantina. There was literal nothing for combat classes to do but grind lame kill quests or try to find people willing to pvp.

I'm glad Bioware didn't try to make SWG2. Good riddance to that POS.

 

[Jibber Hack]

Oh, and there is a rumor that the space combat is on-rails, like Star Fox. If that's true, space combat is little more than a mini-game and I'd be pretty disappointed.

Oh hell nah!

 

[Draft]

Oh, and there is a rumor that the space combat is on-rails, like Star Fox. If that's true, space combat is little more than a mini-game and I'd be pretty disappointed.

That sounds totally reasonable. There's a point where game design needs to focus. It would be pretty crazy if KOTOR3 was this giant WoW clone + an in-depth real time space combat arcade game.

 

[BattleMonkey]

The space combat sounds like it will probably be tied directly to quests if its on rails. The KOTOR games also had space combat that was nothing more than on rail shooting galleries. Was kind of hoping it was going to be like Star Wars Galaxies space combat which was basically XvT with RPG elements tossed in.

Pre-CU/NGE SWG was only fun for people who wanted to do nothing but harvest/craft or dance in a cantina. There was literal nothing for combat classes to do but grind lame kill quests or try to find people willing to pvp.

And that's how all MMO's were back then, grindfests to max out your characters and mostly just open world.

It wasn't till later when WoW came out that we saw more quest oriented MMO.

SWG was broken in many ways, but what they did to revive the game did nothing to help and just made it worse as those who did like the game or were fans just left. Shit I would have still played probably for another year or two if they had just kept adding on and fixing the game as it was, but their revamps killed it for many of the original fans.

 

[Affeinvasion]

"On Rails" is a dirty word on this forum. I could see it turning out more like Rogue Squadron...arena based, limited mobility, but not a point and click endeavor. I would also accept a 2D shoot-em-up like Sin and Punishment.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Red human, green human, blind human, epic races you got there bioware.

 

[Acheteedo]

First time I've been tempted to get into an MMORPG since Phantasy Star Online. But that game caused me to flunk at my first uni... dangerous territory.

 

[water_wendi]

Red human, green human, blind human, epic races you got there bioware.

Getting into nitpicking territory now :lol

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

"On Rails" is a dirty word on this forum. I could see it turning out more like Rogue Squadron...arena based, limited mobility, but not a point and click endeavor. I would also accept a 2D shoot-em-up like Sin and Punishment.

In no way can Sin and Punishment be considered 2D.

 

[Trouble]

And that's how all MMO's were back then, grindfests to max out your characters and mostly just open world.

It wasn't till later when WoW came out that we saw more quest oriented MMO.

SWG was broken in many ways, but what they did to revive the game did nothing to help and just made it worse as those who did like the game or were fans just left. Shit I would have still played probably for another year or two if they had just kept adding on and fixing the game as it was, but their revamps killed it for many of the original fans.

At least with earlier MMOs you progressed through areas as you leveled, and had named mobs and dungeons to go after. After a few hundred terminal generated kill quests, you start to question why you are playing a game.

I quit before CU because it became clear that the core of the game was too broken to ever be fixed. I'm not saying CU or NGE were good ideas, I'm saying it didn't really matter by that point, the damage was done, their player base abandoned them.

 

[Draft]

Red human, green human, blind human, epic races you got there bioware.

:lol

 

[CzarTim]

Oh, and there is a rumor that the space combat is on-rails, like Star Fox. If that's true, space combat is little more than a mini-game and I'd be pretty disappointed.

Fine by me. I don't want to have to grind like in SWG.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Getting into nitpicking territory now :lol

Well it's kind of true and others especially me have pointed it out. They are so far taking the easy route and using humanoid aliens since it's basically just head swaps and skin changes it seems. I'm hoping that this is just because it's early and easiest races for them to do, and that we will see some more unique sized/shaped races come along before launch.

 

[BigAT]

A German magazine, PC Action, has a lot of information about space combat. The site is in German, but the translation makes it pretty obviously what the info is. Some of the more important bits.

-"This way of playing is called "tunnel shooter". They are specially designed levels, where you follow a specific path. The player has a choice of weapons available, which he uses against his enemies. You get a quest before it goes in there." So pretty much confirmed to be an on-rails shooter.

-"At release, there will be no PvP combat starship. Later BioWare does something but not enough."

-"The missions should last no longer than a few minutes, and are therefore more of a short action-snack in between."

-"There are also escort missions planned."

-"All space missions are currently optional, no one has to do it if he does not want."

There's also a screenshot up on the site.

http://www.swtor-station.com/index.php?p=news&newsid=396

 

[BattleMonkey]

Well I hope that these are fun at least since they will be scripted. Gives them more room to make more scripted and cinematic like space sequences.

 

[Stahsky]

Aw, that seems kinda lame. Here's hoping they get creative with it later on, though.

 

[Erasus]

First time I've been tempted to get into an MMORPG since Phantasy Star Online. But that game caused me to flunk at my first uni... dangerous territory.

Yes, blame the game and not yourself! :lol

 

[Lebron]

fucking escort missions

 

[Zod the Bear]

So TOR's space combat'll be the equivalent on the racing minigame in KotOR and TSL. Disappointing, but not surprising.

 

[BattleMonkey]

So TOR's space combat'll be the equivalent on the racing minigame in KotOR and TSL. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Sounds more like it will be akin to Rebel Assault games. The KOTOR games also had space combat sequences that were on rail shooter sequences.

 

[Azih]

-"There are also escort missions planned."

Bioware knows what gamers want.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Bioware knows what gamers want.

Don't worry, I'm sure there will be countless "kill 10 rabid wampa" like quests disguised as storyline progression.

 

[Azih]

Don't worry, I'm sure there will be countless "kill 10 rabid wampa" like quests disguised as storyline progression.

Only if you have to collect rabid wampa livers and the drop rate is like 30% max.

 

[Zinga]

Shame to hear about the space combat, hopefully in the future they will flesh it out more.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Seems like some of the devs will be at Star Wars Celebration with a panel 2 of the days as well as a room that will have on display the various games. I'm hoping they will have this game on demo at the convention, plan on driving up for the show with the wife. I know TFU2 will be on hand but don't know if it's confirmed if TOR will be playable or not, at least maybe the E3 demos will be running again.

 

[TomServo]

At least with earlier MMOs you progressed through areas as you leveled, and had named mobs and dungeons to go after. After a few hundred terminal generated kill quests, you start to question why you are playing a game.

I quit before CU because it became clear that the core of the game was too broken to ever be fixed. I'm not saying CU or NGE were good ideas, I'm saying it didn't really matter by that point, the damage was done, their player base abandoned them.

Pre-CU SWG had content... the problem was all of it was trivialized by people min-maxing both the skill system and the crafted item properties.

You had people picking and choosing skills from trees to create unhittable characters that still did tons of damage, and you had crafters using year-old materials to create armor that mitigated 95% of incoming damage, buffs that removed any action costs associated with special abilities, and weapons that were one and two shotting anything that wasn't a boss-level mob.

The devs admitted that they never intended for things to go that way. They expected people to max out one or two skill trees and then pick up support skills from other trees. They didn't expect crafters to horde materials, they expected them to craft with whatever was available at the time.

No MMO is going to feel like it has content if you can solo everything in the game.

I will agree that what really set WoW apart was the fact that (relative to other MMOs of the era) everything worked. That, and the fact that WoW seemed to respect the Warcraft lore. As a Star Wars fan, it was painful to see so much of the Star Wars lore completely whored out to make the game appealing to casual fans. Having a game set in the OT during a time when the prequels were on everyone's minds created some really, really painful scenarios in SWG.

 

[Shrennin]

I think an on-rail shooter could be good, it just depends on how fleshed out it is (yes, there is no control of movement but even that could be fleshed out later if the original space combat doesn't work out).

This is, for me, a "try before I comment" type of thing.

While a rail shooter sounds really restrictive, it may not be so restrictive that it can't be fleshed out in later expansions and eventually be "taken off the rails" so to speak. It could also be fun in its current state as well. The thing that is going to disappoint me is if it's a mini-game that is fun for a few minutes or so but gets boring really fast and is never fleshed out (specifically no PVP combat).

 

[Safe Bet]

I have to agree and place myself in the "Wait and See" camp.

This is a MMO afterall...

Things will change.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Supposedly from upcoming issue of PC gamer they go into detail about the space combat, it doesn't sound so bad and more rogue squadron than rail shooter.

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/09/the-old-republics-space-combat-detailed-in-pc-gamer/

"It's with great glee, then, that we have received more news on TOR's space combat in the upcoming October issue of PC Gamer. The seven-page spread confirms that the space combat won't be a free-form flight simulator like X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, but instead will be a "tunnel shooter" designed to create highly cinematic battle sequences for players to experience. Space combat hotspots will be unlocked as players progress through the game, and while they'll initially be solo instances only, eventually BioWare hopes to implement PvP and team combat in the future.

In a tunnel shooter, players will be able to move ships up, down, left and right, although their overall course is locked in by the scenario in question. Ship collision, rotating quest objectives, customizable ship cosmetics, achievements, various difficulty levels and incentives to repeat missions also seem to be a go for this portion of the game. While a lot of the details are still hidden from our prying eyes, we're sure that BioWare will have a lot more to say on this in the near future."

 

[Azih]

Supposedly from upcoming issue of PC gamer they go into detail about the space combat, it doesn't sound so bad and more rogue squadron than rail shooter.

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/09/the-old-republics-space-combat-detailed-in-pc-gamer/

"It's with great glee, then, that we have received more news on TOR's space combat in the upcoming October issue of PC Gamer. The seven-page spread confirms that the space combat won't be a free-form flight simulator like X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, but instead will be a "tunnel shooter" designed to create highly cinematic battle sequences for players to experience. Space combat hotspots will be unlocked as players progress through the game, and while they'll initially be solo instances only, eventually BioWare hopes to implement PvP and team combat in the future.

In a tunnel shooter, players will be able to move ships up, down, left and right, although their overall course is locked in by the scenario in question. Ship collision, rotating quest objectives, customizable ship cosmetics, achievements, various difficulty levels and incentives to repeat missions also seem to be a go for this portion of the game. While a lot of the details are still hidden from our prying eyes, we're sure that BioWare will have a lot more to say on this in the near future."

Seems more like Star Fox to me.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Seems more like Star Fox to me.

Goes either way, both had tunnel like experiences, course Star Fox did not create such gameplay.

Either way sounds better than a point and click rail shooter like Rebel Assault, they can do some interesting things with a tunnel shooter. My concern still is that comment that it's optional.

 

[Azih]

Goes either way, both had tunnel like experiences, course Star Fox did not create such gameplay.

Either way sounds better than a point and click rail shooter like Rebel Assault, they can do some interesting things with a tunnel shooter. My concern still is that comment that it's optional.

Well Star Fox 64 had arena battles versus the Star Wolf crew as well which were very Rogue Squadron like (and rocked hard) and is the only way I can imagine multiplayer. But Star Fox had a lot of cinematic sequences in the standard levels precisely because it was down a predefined tunnel (though with different branches). That sounds a lot like what the article describes.

Rogue Squadron was open world all the way and not a tunnel at all.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

No. It would be dead. It was a broken game that was hemmorhaging players. They took increasingly desperate measures to try to salvage a player base with CU and NGE, but it was far from a complete or worthwhile game before that.

Pre-CU/NGE SWG was only fun for people who wanted to do nothing but harvest/craft or dance in a cantina. There was literal nothing for combat classes to do but grind lame kill quests or try to find people willing to pvp.

I'm glad Bioware didn't try to make SWG2. Good riddance to that POS.

Uh....huh.

the CU or NGE didn't address anything you just mentioned. It changed the characters and how you played the game, but the game still didn't have anything to do for combat classes except those little mission terminals and Bounty Hunting. It was definitely a pvp centric game, but saying the CU and NGE were made to fix those is totally wrong. The reason they gave was the way classes worked with the skill trees were too complicated, which is far from the truth. People could easily figure out how to level up a class if they wanted to, and there were few hybrid "cheat" classes that always got fixed anyway.

Maybe you're right and I'm just looking at it through nostalgia, but I really do think they had a great unique game with a good foundation at least.

Fine by me. I don't want to have to grind like in SWG.

I hate to come off like a SWG defense force here or anything, but what does the flight game being on rails have to do with SWG? And where does it say it wouldn't be a grind? If it were just a mini-game that didn't really reward you and you didn't have to level up in it, in a MMORPG, is that really a good thing?

Space is without a doubt the best thing they did in SWG. It played like a Rogue Squadron game, and you could get faster ships that could hold bigger and better engines and weapons. How is that not awesome?

 

[BigAT]

Am I the only one that's against the space combat? Not that I think it will be completely awful or that I won't try it out at all, but to me it just feels like every bit of development time and money that goes into creating space combat would be better spent on polishing the main game.

There has yet to be a MMO that was released where you could not say that there were clearly areas that could have used more development time and polish and I can't imagine The Old Republic will be any different. I will (likely) be buying TOR based on the traditional MMORPG aspects of the game, not because I'm looking to play a half-rate flight shooter. To me, it feels like a mismanagement of resources to invest into space combat when it could be much better spent improving the main gameplay elements instead.

 

[TomServo]

Maybe you're right and I'm just looking at it through nostalgia, but I really do think they had a great unique game with a good foundation at least.

Nah, you're right.

The more time passes and the more the MMO = WoW model becomes engrained in us, the less we can understand that SWG was a sandbox MMO that was dependent on the players themselves for a good deal of content. I played from launch to the combat upgrade, and every one of my best memories of that game was from what was essentially player-created content. If you ever read Raph Koster's posts on the forums, that was intended.


I wish I could get excited about TOR, but already seeing people posting here about how Jedi should be all-powerful is bringing back too many bad memories. I wonder if it's even possible to have a solid Star Wars MMO, given peoples' expectations from the films.

 

[Killthee]

Scans of the PC Gamer spread are out. A bunch of the space combat shots look like concept art, but a couple look like they might be in game. Looks pretty cool.

 

[pilonv1]

Hey more instancing

 

[Shrennin]

Am I the only one that's against the space combat? Not that I think it will be completely awful or that I won't try it out at all, but to me it just feels like every bit of development time and money that goes into creating space combat would be better spent on polishing the main game.

There has yet to be a MMO that was released where you could not say that there were clearly areas that could have used more development time and polish and I can't imagine The Old Republic will be any different. I will (likely) be buying TOR based on the traditional MMORPG aspects of the game, not because I'm looking to play a half-rate flight shooter. To me, it feels like a mismanagement of resources to invest into space combat when it could be much better spent improving the main gameplay elements instead.

TOR has been in development since 2006 and on an engine that supposedly cuts normal MMO development time in half. While it's still an unlikely undertaking, BioWare has said time and time again that they would not release the game until it was as polished as possible.

They have also said before that if something integral is not in the game at launch (like space combat) then they would not put it into the game through an expansion. I do think space combat is essential to Star Wars so I am glad it is in and I hope it gets expanded upon as the years go by. I am also intrigued that they are taking a different approach to other MMOs on space combat - I don't know if it will necessarily be a good or bad thing yet, but it's interesting.

Hey more instancing

You do realize that the majority of the game is non-instanced, right? I believe BioWare gave a 5% figure when they were talking about the level of instancing used to non-instancing.

 

[Speculator]

Released new media (3rd party, sorry main site doesnt allow hotlinking):


Jedi Knight class trailer:
http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/jedi-knight

more:
http://www.swtor.com/media/screens

 

[Yasae]

I see they've toned down the huge lego lightsabers and made things a bit more proportionate. +1

 

[subversus]

this game looks good but during combat everybody stays glued to the ground, no strafing or whatever. Is it sort of turn-based?

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

this game looks good but during combat everybody stays glued to the ground, no strafing or whatever. Is it sort of turn-based?

It's auto attack, if that's what you mean. You click on a enemy, and when you are close enough, you can use your attacks by pressing the keyboard, 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on... The attacks come with a little delay(dice roll), and then sometimes your character hits or misses, and crits and all that. That's at least what I have pictured it.
From what I have seen you can strafe, but it does look jerky and clunky during combat. I blame the animations. They are very, very lacking. From death animations, to sword fighting while running.
The animations are one of the best parts about WoW I think.

What about Dark Age of Camelot? I played it for a couple months so it's probably not enough, but I remember WoW feeling a lot like it. The reviews were great too. That being said WoW is easily the most accessible MMO out there with SWG being the coolest to me. Sadly cool isn't enough for me to play SWG anymore, but I think that's why i'm interested in SWTOR. The possibility of taking that WoW experience and putting back into some of the SWG stuff (player housing, space etc.). Plus of course the whole new story and voice acting stuff (sorry EQII).

Yeah I played DAOC for a very short time as well, but that games strength was the PvP, not a focused PvE narrative. It was great for it's time, offering something new and fresh, but it was up against games like EQ and AC. Expectations were very different from what they had to accomplish with Warhammer!

No. It would be dead. It was a broken game that was hemmorhaging players. They took increasingly desperate measures to try to salvage a player base with CU and NGE, but it was far from a complete or worthwhile game before that.

Pre-CU/NGE SWG was only fun for people who wanted to do nothing but harvest/craft or dance in a cantina. There was literal nothing for combat classes to do but grind lame kill quests or try to find people willing to pvp.

I'm glad Bioware didn't try to make SWG2. Good riddance to that POS.

I know it's betting on the wrong horse, and I am biased because I believe in the "Sandbox" MMORPG, but also in that it's almost impossible to recreate now a days. It's not like UO anymore!

You are right, in what you say, for I was too only combat(or mostly). Combat was completely broken, and you had classes like the Marksman and Brawler specializations that had 90% of their abillities not working. No, I am not joking. The Pistol profession had almost nothing working. It was that bad. Even for it's time, it was beyond horrible developer support on that front.

HOWEVER, SWG did have some great successes. Jump To Lightspeed, was a great attempt at a expansion, even though yet again - It was rushed out thanks to LucasArts whip, but during the actual game, the implantation of the Politician class(which was a great class), mounts, vehicles and player cities, is the largest and most significant gameplay addition I have seen to date in a MMO.
It was only SOE who 1up'ed themselves with their NGE, that took the mantle. But these additions were goddam amazing, and to a large degree wonderfully implanted. This was in the beginning of SWG, and things looked good. People had faith at this point. It was truly something... It really was, and today it would be unheard off.

Then again, SOE killed the game, around 3 months into Live, when they did those stupid holocrons. Just like that, the cantinas had died, and they had forced AFK'ing on their own population. SOE had played russian roulette against itself, and now everyone suffered.



IN MY OPINION, Ralph Koaster's and his "dream team"(clearly remember the hype.. hand picked MMORPG vets with the most experience in the biz, got handpicked to take up the mantle in Austin to make the best MMO in history) design plan, was genius.

Yes, the player creates content, philosophy was controvertial - Ralph had the opinion that the players would always consume and exhaust the content before it could be made, putting the players in limbo! Much like how WoW, EQ and all the others have been. The players exhaust the content and they grow bored until something new is made.

He thought he could, take the gameplay ideology from a game like counter-strike, a PVP game, were people played for the action, with no reward besides winning, and apply that. The idea was that if they could make the role playing tools, the competitive tools in pvp, realm warfare(faction based war) and crafting and selling with open competitive markets, the players would enjoy themselves, simply because the players would create new gameplay and circumstances.

HE WAS RIGHT, because it worked for crafting, and that was one of the best things about SWG. It's incredible crafting and resources system, along with its open economy. everything was build, people had to go buy player made weapon to get the best, players had to buy the best rare minerals and resources to build the best foods(buffs), droids(utility help), vehicles(transportations), weapons and armor and so on... it all created a little circle of life, that made the game that much organic than everything before it(or since).

Yes, there was no real quests, the combat sucked, pvp was broken, balance was a joke... it even had little star wars music, for stupid reasons that could have been fixed easily. But it certainly was a real living breathing MMO, in more ways than I have seen before.

And that is why you still see people like me, and on other forums bitching, crying and screaming for a game like that. because to us, the static on-rails questing of wow and other games like that, are over glorified online rpgs with a fee were you sometimes see someone in the same place as you.


SWG had the right idea. But they failed at execution, the management was screwed. too many classes, too many things and systems. jedis was a major mistake. the time period was contradicting and restrained them. the player communication died once their legendary community manager left, soon followed by Ralph "Holocron" Koaster!




A last thing was that SWG was humble. It was really, really humble. In WoW and SWTOR, you are the hero who saves the galaxy. every NPC thinks you are the god who saves the universe. I find this childish, in a MMORPG. I want to be part of something bigger. I like being the hero who saves the day in single player games, but I play MMORPGs to win and succced with others.

its great saving the universe, but its also great to feel you are part of your faction, and you can still be a hero like that.
In SWG you were just supposed to be a small fry making his way. It actually made you feel small and sinsiginifcantly.. vulnerable, like the world was a scary place. the planets felt like life sized planets, as between the cities were massive, massive, massive beautifually terrain with nothing.. it was not condensed like WoW were you had a snow to tropical zone next to each other.


But nothing about this matters. To my knowledge there is not even a MMORPG in development that even dares doing sandbox. It's way to risky. Warhammer again showed how unpredictable players are. they had no idea, that their staging of the world(tiers) would defragment the playerbase, let alone choose the instanced pvp dungeons. its ironic, considering its RvR premise, and mythics legacy.

So you cant really blame SWTOR for being what it is. All they can do, is to try and 1up WoW and offer real competition. If they can snatch 20-40% of the playerbase in west, and get 2-3 million subs, it will be fantastic, and there will be choice and competition, and that will evolve new ideas.
Right now it's almost sick, how every single game in this genre gets compared to WoW. It's not healthy. It's not healthy for WoW either.
Warcraft grew great because of their battles with westwood and the great alternative of Command and Conquer. Diablo grew great because of their battles with the very alternative Icewind Dale and Baldurs Gate series. Starcraft and Total Anihilation.
WoW has simply not had that, game to edge up against. It's bad for Blizzard, and people who play WoW.
McDonalds, Coca-Cola and Microsoft would all suck more without competition. It goes without saying.
Sorry for beating the dead horse.

 

[Ushojax]

Saber to saber combat still looks limp. In the first to KOTOR games they had great animations where the swords actually clashed, there was a degree of choreography. In TOR they seem to just slash away wildly. A bit lame.