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[The Librarian]

Heh.

So, Disney intentionally made a film to push women..

..but subsequently didn't push Rey figures.

.. and thought the way to promote said agenda was to make said character a "Mary Sue"

This is why the Mary Sue argument falls apart, IMO.

Having a female protagonist is "pushing women"?

lol

 

[excelsiorlef]

By having someone completely untrained a defeat Dark Jedi with years of, as bad as some the fight were in the PT they were never that bad in terms of believability. It's a far worse climax than the destruction of star Killer.

She has years of fight training herself with her staff, and Ren was beyond fucked up psychically and emotionally but yes ignore all that (and you have no idea how much saber training Ren has) and call it more unbelievable than all the flippy for flippy sake fights of the PT.

Having a female protagonist is "pushing women"?

lol

You're misread that comment. It was highlighting the silliness of anyone who claims that TFA was pushing women.

 

[Principate]

She has years of fight training herself with her staff, and Ren was beyond fucked up psychically and emotionally but yes ignore all that (and you have no idea how much saber training Ren has) and call it more unbelievable than all the flippy for flippy sake fights of the PT.

We been through how many times, all those years of fight training and she got her ass saved literally be the force (something Ren has trained for years in and she has used for maybe a few hours) after Kylo Ren drove her to a cliff edge. The fight clearly shows how competent she was against Ren in straight up fight (which is not very)

 

[The Librarian]

She has years of fight training herself with her staff, and Ren was beyond fucked up psychically and emotionally but yes ignore all that (and you have no idea how much saber training Ren has) and call it more unbelievable than all the flippy for flippy sake fights of the PT.



You're misread that comment. It was highlighting the silliness of anyone who claims that TFA was pushing women.

Oh. My bad.

 

[NimbusD]

What I think TFA doesn't respect isn't exactly the original trilogy, but the arc of both trilogies as a whole.

While we can all agree the PT sucks, I think most Star Wars fans LIKE the idea of exploring the world of a pre-jedi fall and a story of Anakin becoming darth vader. There's a grand story between those two trilogies with a pretty epic arc that's going on in the background behind this individual character arcs.

I mean, that's the way it was supposed to work, the PT didn't exactly nail the separation of that and as a result (along with many other mistakes) it muddled the stories. Obviously the OT nailed it.

This new trilogy though, just hits reset on almost everything, all the building over the last three trilogies is gone, so I guess OP is right in that. Han's arc reverse, Jedi's gone again,etc. I like some things, like Han and Leia's stories and characters being broken is tragic and serves the story well, but Luke missing, jedi's AGAIN being gone from the world, the new republic bein blown up before you even get to see what sort of world the OT built, is really disappointing.

It wouldn't annoy me if it werent SIX movies, good or bad, building this arc, but there is and this new arc seems to just not care where those threads were heading at the end of ROTJ. Granted, it's 30 years so there's a lot that can change, and there will be side stories to help tie the worlds together, but it's to service the direction JJ wanted to go, letting the EU figure out how it got there and not service where the story was going.

Of course, this could all be wrong, TFA was very much a movie that's an ACT 1 for a larger story, so we have a lot to find out, but it seems that way for sure.

And ALSO, I really like the movie so all these complaints are just more wishful thinking as a star wars fan. It really was a great movie, I just wish it hit the reset button a little less hard than it did.

 

[excelsiorlef]

We been through how many times, all those years of fight training and she got her ass saved literally be the force after Kylo Ren drove her to a cliff edge. The fight clearly shows how competent she was against Ren in straight up fight (which is not very)

So let me understand this...

You wanted her to be even better at fighting? That would have made her less of a Mary Sue?

Embracing the force is a fucking staple of the damn series ... Do you even like Star Wars?

She had a natural mele talent which allowed her to repel and defend against Ren and then my calming herself and embracing the force it allowed her to use her natural fighting skills and go on the offense, which if you watched freaked out Ren even more causing him to be even less confident because he wasn't expecting that at all.

Had Ren wanted to kill her and not been injured and been a better trained more proficient lightsaber dueler, he'd have probably done so even after she embraced the Force, but he didn't and he was and he isn't, ergo a little force power was enough to turn the tide.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yeah, seriously. The Force very often is used as an asspull. It's just harder to notice at certain times because we were all watching TFA with our critic/analyst hat, but watched the OT with our fan hat.

Not that we shouldn't talk about asspulls, but just as people are starting to talk more and more about TFA's flaws, I'm also going to force the conversation towards how normal these flaws are to the franchise - especially in a thread that canonizes the OT and is full of people defending it from the "glass houses/stones" arguments.

For as much as TFA fans can be defensive about it, OT fans are super defensive, like feverishly. "Empire wasn't your favourite!?" "You liked the Prequels!?" "You haven't seen the movies before!?" "You haven't seen Star Wars until you've seen the real version! One sec, let me get my Laserdiscs!"

Reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4TX6x2WLgk lol

 

[Doctor Ironic]

Good. Canon is the slow heat death of creativity and caring about it in Star Wars, a series focused around the characters using Space Magic Bullshit, is especially stupid.

I hope episodes 8 and 9 burn the canon to the ground.

 

[SArcher]

Everything was going to go wrong for the OT characters anyway. There's no way it couldn't or else the story wouldn't have any tension. The only way to avoid them having crappy elderly lives would have been to jump the story forward far enough that they weren't involved.

The old EU ran into the same problem. The New Republic was established after Endor but rarely got a moment's peace with constant attacks from Imperial warlords and splinter factions (Zsinj, Ysard, Thrawn, Daala, the Crimson Empire, etc.), alien invasions (Nagai, Tof, Ssi-Ruuk, Yuuzhan Vong, etc.), Palpatine coming back to life, dark side splinter factions (Second Imperium, Empire Reborn, anything Lumiya was doing, etc.), culminating in the Vong killing trillions of people and the New Republic collapsing. So they set up the Galactic Alliance instead, which immediately becomes a dictatorship under Darth Caedus, who was Han and Leia's Jedi son who turned to the dark side and was killed by his sister Jaina (they also had another son, Anakin, who was killed in the Vong War), then the Senate got corrupted again when the Lost Tribe of the Sith stacked it and elected Abeloth. Then they finally got some peace, but two generations later the Galactic Alliance was defeated and the Jedi purged againin a war by the revived Empire and Sith, under the Fel dynasty and the One Sith ruled by Darth Krayt, until the Sith betrayed the Empire and went to war. The whole thing ended in an uneasy three-way government set up by Empress Marasiah Fel, the again-revived Jedi Order, and the resurrected Alliance.

At least it's more streamlined this time.

If you put it like this then they really did hit many of the same notes in TFA.

 

[Monocle]

Let's face it.

TFA is a big turd that's spray painted gold.

Let's face it.

TFA is such a good movie that negative people have nothing solid to latch onto when they want to complain.

 

[jstripes]

A big part of the damage that the EU and PT did was establish a hardcore segment of the fanbase that needs every single detail of everything completely fleshed out, with no ambiguity.

If ANH was made under those demands, Obi Wan Kenobi would spend a good 20 minutes of the film explaining everything that had happened in the past.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Let's face it.

TFA is such a good movie that negative people have nothing solid to latch onto when they want to complain.

There's plenty of solid complaints about this movie.

 

[BocoDragon]

A big part of the damage that the EU and PT did was establish a hardcore segment of the fanbase that needs every single detail of everything completely fleshed out, with no ambiguity.

If ANH was made under those demands, Obi Wan Kenobi would spend a good 20 minutes of the film explaining everything that had happened in the past.

I disagree. Obi Wan's exposition about the nature of the Force, the Jedi and the Empire, or the discussions of Imperials on the Death Star about the state of the senate and the galaxy is a level of information that TFA distinctly lacks.

A New Hope gives us context for its world. We know why Obiwan confronts Vader. We know the Empire needs its Death Star to maintain control in the galaxy with the disbandment of the senate.

The Force Awakens leaves out backstory for things that it later asks us to care about. The destruction of the New Republic will have you asking "there's a New Republic?" and the confrontation between Kylo and Han will have you asking "what are they confronting each other about?"

 

[Pandy]

I agree with your comments. TFA was a horrible movie. JJ sucks, and has always sucked.

I endorse this statement, and that of the OP.

 

[Monocle]

There's plenty of solid complaints about this movie.

There's a variety of mild complaints.

Rey being a Mary Sue is a joke that smacks of sexism. TFA resembling ANH too much is a valid issue, but it doesn't actually interfere with the main story beats and crucial moments, and Rey and Finn's dynamic feels fresh. The complains surrounding Kylo Ren are generally from people who have misread his character and arc, and were expecting Vader 2.0.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

There's a variety of mild complaints.

This is your opinion.

I agree the clickbait-y shit "hurr hurr" fuckery is bad but there is a lot of stuff that can be legitimately debated though.

Problem is, it all gets minimized away.

 

[jstripes]

I disagree. Obi Wan's exposition about the nature of the Force, the Jedi and the Empire, or the discussions of Imperials on the Death Star about the state of the senate and the galaxy is a level of information that TFA distinctly lacks.

A New Hope gives us context for its world. The Force Awakens leaves out backstory for things that it later asks us to care about. The destruction of the New Republic will have you asking "there's a New Republic?" and the confrontation between Kylo and Han will have you asking "what are they confronting each other about?"

The New Republic was mentioned in the title crawl and in Hux's speech. Yes, that could have been fleshed out a bit better, but it would have been hard to find the context to fit it in. But we know it exists, and it's funding the Resistance.

Obi Wan Kenobi explained what he did to Luke because Luke was essentially a country bumpkin with no knowledge of anything outside his own planet. I think we can assume the characters in this movie are a little more aware of the goings-on in the galaxy than he was. So it's hard to fit in that exposition with regards to the New Republic.


What is Han confronting his son Ben about? Really? I dunno. Maybe for slaughtering Luke's students, running away and breaking his parents hearts, and becoming a mentally unstable Darth Vader fanboy in charge of a powerful terrorist group?

 

[Monocle]

This is your opinion.

I agree the clickbait-y shit "hurr hurr" fuckery is bad but there is a lot of stuff that can be legitimately debated though.

Problem is, it all gets minimized away.

It's a little more than just an opinion when the film's critical reception was phenomenal. (I'm not saying it's good because it's popular. I'm saying it's good and a lot of critics noticed.) That's like telling me it's an "opinion" to call Fury Road a well made film.

 

[BocoDragon]

The New Republic was mentioned in the title crawl and in Hux's speech. Yes, that could have been fleshed out a bit better, but it would have been hard to find the context to fit it in. But we know it exists, and it's funding the Resistance.

What is Han confronting his son Ben about? Really? I dunno. Maybe for slaughtering Luke's students, running away and breaking his parents hearts, and becoming a mentally unstable Darth Vader fanboy in charge of a powerful terrorist group?

Was this even explained in the movie? It's glossed over real quick.

It needed the equivalent of this scene:

Luke Skywalker: How did my father die?
Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

There's lots of stuff that gets glossed over and skipped over in TFA... and I do suspect it was all in the script and got cut out in the transition to a final cut.

Obi Wan Kenobi explained what he did to Luke because Luke was essentially a country bumpkin with no knowledge of anything outside his own planet. I think we can assume the characters in this movie are a little more aware of the goings-on in the galaxy than he was. So it's hard to fit in that exposition with regards to the New Republic.

So how about Rey?

Actually the New republic/Rebellion stuff was originally exposited in a cut scene featuring Leia on Hosnian Prime.

 

[atr0cious]

All he really got was this:

Which was really the bare minimum needed. Luke had to teach himself pretty much everything other than jumping and levitation.

Like, Rey being good with a lightsaber makes sense with the staff fighting. Luke? He had to spend some years just winging it.

Just to add to this, everything Obie says in this scene, Maz basically repeats to Rey. Specifically that it flows everywhere and tells her to close her eyes to sense it; which is exactly what she does when she's been beaten back by Kylo.

 

[disappeared]

Wasn't Luke's blue lightsaber lost after the fight with Vader in Empire? I haven't seen the film in years but by Jedi he's built a new one.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

It's a little more than just an opinion when the film's critical reception was phenomenal. (I'm not saying it's good because it's popular. I'm saying it's good and a lot of critics noticed.) That's like telling me it's an "opinion" to call Fury Road a well made film.

I think that movies are often judged by different metrics. I would guess the metric for TFA is, "Is it a good SW movie?" But that metric, I would agree it is. It has the spirit, the fun, the vibe of what we all have come to expect from SW and to be honest, following the PT, it blows that away, easily. So the data you're basing that on might be a little skewed.

However, once the "oh man, Star Wars is back!" luster wears off, a lot of us look a little deeper under the hood and realize that the feeling that things weren't quite right, wasn't unfounded.

It's ok to like a movie and simultaneously not like things about it.

 

[jstripes]

Was this even explained in the movie? It's glossed over real quick.

It needed the equivalent of this scene:

Luke Skywalker: How did my father die?
Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

There's lots of stuff that gets glossed over and skipped over in TFA... and I do suspect it was all in the script and got cut out in the transition to a final cut.

I distinctly remember talk in the movie of Kylo's betrayal. Plus, there was that flashback.

But the reason you won't get that exact scene you requested is because the context is completely different. Luke is asking an intensely personal question about a father he never met after meeting a mysterious man who knew his father.

Kylo wouldn't be explained in the same manner in TFA because the new characters have no emotional investment in him, and the characters who do already dealt with it years ago.

That said, I'm satisfied with how Kylo's backstory was handled.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think that movies are often judged by different metrics. I would guess the metric for TFA is, "Is it a good SW movie?" But that metric, I would agree it is. It has the spirit, the fun, the vibe of what we all have come to expect from SW and to be honest, following the PT, it blows that away, easily. So the data you're basing that on might be a little skewed.

However, once the "oh man, Star Wars is back!" luster wears off, a lot of us look a little deeper under the hood and realize that the feeling that things weren't quite right, wasn't unfounded.

It's ok to like a movie and simultaneously not like things about it.

That's right. I liked this movie's spirit. I just think that under the hood it's quite broken....

 

[Monocle]

Just to add to this, everything Obie says in this scene, Maz basically repeats to Rey. Specifically that it flows everywhere and tells her to close her eyes to sense it; which is exactly what she does when she's been beaten back by Kylo.

No, I'm pretty sure what happened is Rey tore off her bra and burned it with force lighting before demonstrating master-level swordsmanship with three lightsabers at once. She's just a feminist power fantasy.

I think that movies are often judged by different metrics. I would guess the metric for TFA is, "Is it a good SW movie?" But that metric, I would agree it is. It has the spirit, the fun, the vibe of what we all have come to expect from SW and to be honest, following the PT, it blows that away, easily. So the data you're basing that on might be a little skewed.

However, once the "oh man, Star Wars is back!" luster wears off, a lot of us look a little deeper under the hood and realize that the feeling that things weren't quite right, wasn't unfounded.

It's ok to like a movie and simultaneously not like things about it.

That's fair. I don't agree with many of the critiques people are coming up with, but I see what you're saying.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This is your opinion.

I agree the clickbait-y shit "hurr hurr" fuckery is bad but there is a lot of stuff that can be legitimately debated though.

Problem is, it all gets minimized away.

For sure, but that is because it's Star Wars, not because it's TFA.

Star Wars is the poster child for fanbases battling criticism.

 

[jstripes]

So how about Rey?

Actually the New republic/Rebellion stuff was originally exposited in a cut scene featuring Leia on Hosnian Prime.

Rey strikes me as more savvy than Luke. Luke was a whiny farmboy who occasionally went to hang out with friends. Rey was fending for herself, and dealt with all kinds of weirdos.

As for that scene, maybe we'll get an extended cut. Disney's gonna want that cash.

 

[BocoDragon]

Rey strikes me as more savvy than Luke. Luke was a farmboy who occasionally went to hang out with friends. Rey was fending for herself, and dealt with all kinds of weirdos.

As for that scene, maybe we'll get an extended cut. Disney's gonna want that cash.

I would not mind an updated cut of the film. It might just fix many of my issues.

(I can't believe I'm asking for a SW Special Edition!)

 

[Monocle]

For sure, but that is because it's Star Wars, not because it's TFA.

Star Wars is the poster child for fanbases battling criticism.

What a convenient way to dismiss everybody who doesn't climb onto the negativity express. "Oh, he's just a fan."

 

[MHWilliams]

Did you forget when Luke when from struggling to do anything Yoda said to running around a swamp doing flips and shit?

Which was really the bare minimum needed. Luke had to teach himself pretty much everything other than jumping and levitation.

That lightsaber training in a New Hope? Luke goes from getting hit to deflecting bolts in minutes. Ezra takes forever in Rebels to get there.

He makes a crazy shot on the Death Star using the Force, in the very first X-Wing he ever piloted, in his first space battle ever.

Calling the saber to himself in Empire? No one told him he could do that.

Mind trick? He saw Obi-Wan do it once and had to work it out. Telepathy to call out to Leia? Just happens because he needs it to.

This flippin' force choke shit? Where did he ever come up with that?

Let's not even go into Anakin in the prequels. Or Luke's exploits in the canon Marvel Comics.

Full stop: Being "strong in the Force" is literally giving you a talent and serendipity leg up on everyone else in the galaxy. It's is the literal god of the Star Wars universe telling you what to do to look awesome and the only difference in Force practioners is he yells louder to some and others have trained harder to hear him.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What a convenient way to dismiss everybody who doesn't climb onto the negativity express. "Oh, he's just a fan."

Yo, I've been defending TFA for this entire thread, if I'm talking about everyone in this thread on the defense, I'm talking about me too then! Inevitably, some people will defend TFA because it's Star Wars, or because we just like it. The comment relates more to OT fans anyway, as I said earlier in the thread they can be very full of themselves and like to lord themselves over people who like PT or (sometimes) the ST.

 

[ghst]

I think that movies are often judged by different metrics. I would guess the metric for TFA is, "Is it a good SW movie?" But that metric, I would agree it is. It has the spirit, the fun, the vibe of what we all have come to expect from SW and to be honest, following the PT, it blows that away, easily. So the data you're basing that on might be a little skewed.

i think the point is that it didn't really feel like a star wars movie. it somehow plundered all its most iconic moments but still felt totally alien. like a marvel movie in cosplay.

 

[Monocle]

Yo, I've been defending TFA for this entire thread, if I'm talking about everyone in this thread on the defense, I'm talking about me too then! Inevitably, some people will defend TFA because it's Star Wars, or because we just like it. The comment relates more to OT fans anyway, as I said earlier in the thread they can be very full of themselves and like to lord themselves over people who like PT or (sometimes) the ST.

Sorry, I meant everyone who uses fanboyism as an excuse to wave away positive opinions.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Sorry, I meant everyone who uses fanboyism as an excuse to wave away positive opinions.

Ah, my bad!

 

[munchie64]

creatives, shareholders, board members, disney executives, all stirring away at one artistically bankrupt mulch.

star wars by whiteboard.

OK ghst. You've figured it all out. Good work. Have a cookie.

 

[Toxi]

That lightsaber training in a New Hope? Luke goes from getting hit to deflecting bolts in minutes. Ezra takes forever in Rebels to get there.

Speaking of which, I wonder why Ezra's progressing more slowly, beyond the obvious reason of being a tv series protagonist instead of a movie protagonist.Though I guess in Season 2 Ezra's become quite a badass.

 

[shintoki]

I disagree. Obi Wan's exposition about the nature of the Force, the Jedi and the Empire, or the discussions of Imperials on the Death Star about the state of the senate and the galaxy is a level of information that TFA distinctly lacks.

A New Hope gives us context for its world. We know why Obiwan confronts Vader. We know the Empire needs its Death Star to maintain control in the galaxy with the disbandment of the senate.

The Force Awakens leaves out backstory for things that it later asks us to care about. The destruction of the New Republic will have you asking "there's a New Republic?" and the confrontation between Kylo and Han will have you asking "what are they confronting each other about?"

I'll agree with this.

While they hit the reset button and threw away about everything. Even ignoring stuff like Leia, Hans, and Luke's regression back. Same with the world reverting back to the same thing it was at the beginning of the New Hope.

FA doesn't really explain shit. Rather it decides to just set up a bunch of questions the sequels will answer. This is something the original trilogy and honestly, even the prequels never did. I walked out of each of them thinking, "That was cool, can't wait to see where they go next"

Not thinking...
What the hell was Kylo and Han talking about?
What does Snoke mean by teaching Kylo how to really use the force?
Who is Rey's parents and who is she waiting for?
Why did Luke really disappear?
Why was that Saber calling her?

Best comparison I can think of would have been Luke and Darth. First film, they bring up the father. It's not Luke sitting around waiting or constantly asking who is he really!? Rey has already been propped up and it is a very large focus on who her parents are. Luke, the conversation with Old Ben went more naturally. He knew him, told him he was a great man, etc. So when the big reveal came in Empire. It was a surprise. You weren't sitting there and thinking who Luke's father was. It just turned out to be the big baddie.

FA on the other hand, you'll be going into the next film already thinking about who Rey's parents are and why is it important. They largely already set up the next plot for the next film in this one. A good chunk of it will have to be spent answering these questions and sadly, setting up for the next installment. It will be a lot less self contained like the OT and PT

 

[Aselith]

Speaking of which, I wonder why Ezra's progressing more slowly, beyond the obvious reason of being a tv series protagonist instead of a movie protagonist.Though I guess in Season 2 Ezra's become quite a badass.

Weak in the force

 

[shintoki]

That lightsaber training in a New Hope? Luke goes from getting hit to deflecting bolts in minutes. Ezra takes forever in Rebels to get there.

He makes a crazy shot on the Death Star using the Force, in the very first X-Wing he ever piloted, in his first space battle ever.

Calling the saber to himself in Empire? No one told him he could do that.

Mind trick? He saw Obi-Wan do it once and had to work it out. Telepathy to call out to Leia? Just happens because he needs it to.

This flippin' force choke shit? Where did he ever come up with that?

Let's be blunt. Luke was trained by basically the two greatest Jedis.

Taking a look at the first one. He was only able to deflect them once and with ObiWan guiding him. Even Luke didn't know what he was feeling. As Hand said, it was just luck. It was his first time tapping into that power.

Taking a look at the space battle. They make note in the film that Luke is already an exceptional pilot on Tatoonie and the trench run is something he's done before back home. It is also noted that his father was a strong jedi and the best pilot in the clone wars from Obi Wan. Who then is only capable of using the force again with Obi Wan guiding him. The jump you have to take is piloting skills are transferable between land and air in this case.

Empire. That was something he did on his own. He's most likely been practicing on his own and discovering, probably with some Obi Wan Ghost help.

Everything onwards was completing his training with Yoda.

The OT did everything pretty damn well in this regard. They set up his continual growth through the help of others and mentioning his previous skill set.

Comparing it to Rebels, it makes sense too. Luke comes from the strongest Jedi family. Being trained by two of the greatest Jedis of all time. The guy training Ezra was barely above a Padawan.

 

[Clefargle]

Let's face it.

TFA is such a good movie that negative people have nothing solid to latch onto when they want to complain.

Pretty much this

 

[Godzilla's Left Toe]

It's a little more than just an opinion when the film's critical reception was phenomenal. (I'm not saying it's good because it's popular. I'm saying it's good and a lot of critics noticed.) That's like telling me it's an "opinion" to call Fury Road a well made film.

And the critical reception for Ep3 is that it's almost as good as Ep6 i'm going to take a guess that you disagree with that.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'll agree with this.

While they hit the reset button and threw away about everything. Even ignoring stuff like Leia, Hans, and Luke's regression back. Same with the world reverting back to the same thing it was at the beginning of the New Hope.

None of this us true except Han and he's still a fundamentally changed man who now believes 100% in the force. Luke didn't succeed yet at restablishing the Jedi, that failure made him into a recluse, that's a change. Leia is now fully in command insteas of reporting to Mon Mothma, she is the leader, that's a change. The Empire was in firm control of the galaxy, The First Order even after taking out the Senate is not.

FA doesn't really explain shit. Rather it decides to just set up a bunch of questions the sequels will answer. This is something the original trilogy and honestly, even the prequels never did. I walked out of each of them thinking, "That was cool, can't wait to see where they go next"

Not thinking...
What the hell was Kylo and Han talking about?
What does Snoke mean by teaching Kylo how to really use the force?
Who is Rey's parents and who is she waiting for?
Why did Luke really disappear?
Why was that Saber calling her?

Best comparison I can think of would have been Luke and Darth. First film, they bring up the father. It's not Luke sitting around waiting or constantly asking who is he really!? Rey has already been propped up and it is a very large focus on who her parents are. Luke, the conversation with Old Ben went more naturally. He knew him, told him he was a great man, etc. So when the big reveal came in Empire. It was a surprise. You weren't sitting there and thinking who Luke's father was. It just turned out to be the big baddie.

FA on the other hand, you'll be going into the next film already thinking about who Rey's parents are and why is it important. They largely already set up the next plot for the next film in this one. A good chunk of it will have to be spent answering these questions and sadly, setting up for the next installment. It will be a lot less self contained like the OT and PT

All I can say to this is you must have hated Empire Strikes Back.

Also all thar stuff in ANH is because they had no idea that Vader was going to be his father.

There's zero actual in movie focus about Rey's parents. That you are consumed by it to the detriment of enjoying the movie is on you not the film. I'm curios, and enjoying speculation but it's not like the movie had her angsting about wanting to discover who they are.

She's waiting for her family...

Han and Kylo were talking about Ren falling to the darkside and Snoke being the one who did it. That's the same amount of explanation as you got on Anakin back in ANH.

I mean you seem to just gave an issue with a movie not resolving everything at once. The OT didn't show you Anakin falling to the darkside in one movie, it didn't show the fall of the Republic and the rise of Palpatine and the Emperor in one movie.


In the OT we get a hint of there being another Jedi/hope when Yoda says there is another in ESB. That doesn't pay off until Jedi and arguably never really comes into play. Mostly because Leia being Luke's twin sister wasn't decided on yntil writing ROTJ.

Empire is completely not a stand alone film at all. Neither are the PTs.

 

[Tesseract]

luke walked a tightrope between light and dark in a way that anakin couldn't, that's what made him the goat

he def ain't (or wasn't) a traditional jedi

i'm hoping more of that gray shows in up in ep8, the light and dark stuff seems antiquated

 

[BocoDragon]

None of this us true except Han and he's still a fundamentally changed man who now believes 100% in the force. Luke didn't succeed yet at restablishing the Jedi, that failure made him into a recluse, that's a change. Leia is now fully in command insteas of reporting to Mon Mothma, she is the leader, that's a change. The Empire was in firm control of the galaxy, The First Order even after taking out the Senate is not.



All I can say to this is you must have hated Empire Strikes Back.

Also all thar stuff in ANH is because they had no idea that Vader was going to be his father.

There's zero actual in movie focus about Rey's parents. That you are consumed by it to the detriment of enjoying the movie is on you not the film. I'm curios, and enjoying speculation but it's not like the movie had her angsting about wanting to discover who they are.

She's waiting for her family...

Han and Kylo were talking about Ren falling to the darkside and Snoke being the one who did it. That's the same amount of explanation as you got on Anakin back in ANH.

I mean you seem to just gave an issue with a movie not resolving everything at once. The OT didn't show you Anakin falling to the darkside in one movie, it didn't show the fall of the Republic and the rise of Palpatine and the Emperor in one movie.


In the OT we get a hint of there being another Jedi/hope when Yoda says there is another in ESB. That doesn't pay off until Jedi and arguably never really comes into play. Mostly because Leia being Luke's twin sister wasn't decided on yntil writing ROTJ.

Empire is completely not a stand alone film at all. Neither are the PTs.

You're right. They aren't. But I would argue that they are still more self-contained as films than TFA.

All the previous SW films planted seeds that could be capitalized on in future films, but TFA is far more blatantly a matter of "we aren't telling you details, but stay tuned for the next episode".

The ending in particular was far more of an MCU-style tease for the next movie than any of the previous films were. Even Empire and Clones, which had endings hinting at unsolved business, didn't literally drag the heroes to the beginning of the next story beat. That is why I say that Luke's appearance at the end was more more of a "Nick Fury" style scene, winking and nodding at what is coming in the next movie. The equivalent would be Empire ending with Luke knocking on Jabba's door.

I also think they relied on the coming of future films as a crutch to not have to explain things. I still think the lack of knowledge about Kylo Ren's downfall is very odd, and it's weird that we have to wait years to find out what the confrontation with Han really meant.

As I've said many times, I'm pretty sure TFA had more cohesive exposition and context for all the story beats that didn't make it into the final film. It's certainly the most rush-to-the-finish line film in the series since Clones, and bits and pieces of important context flew off the final film in that mad dash. I think an extended cut would do wonders... it would probably placate the "there's something missing here" crowd.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You're right. They aren't. But I would argue that they are still more self-contained as films than TFA.

All the previous SW films planted seeds that could be capitalized on in future films, but TFA is far more blatantly a matter of "we aren't telling you details, but stay tuned for the next episode".

The ending in particular was far more of an MCU-style tease for the next movie than any of the previous films were. Even Empire and Clones, which had endings hinting at unsolved business, didn't literally drag the heroes to the beginning of the next story beat. That is why I say that Luke's appearance at the end was more more of a "Nick Fury" style scene, winking and nodding at what is coming in the next movie. The equivalent would be Empire ending with Luke knocking on Jabba's door.

I also think they relied on the coming of future films as a crutch to not have to explain things. I still think the lack of knowledge about Kylo Ren's downfall is very odd, and it's weird that we have to wait years to find out what the confrontation with Han really meant.

As I've said many times, I'm pretty sure TFA had more cohesive exposition and context for all the story beats that didn't make it into the final film. It's certainly the most rush-to-the-finish line film in the series since Clones, and bits and pieces of important context flew off the final film in that mad dash. I think an extended cut would do wonders... it would probably placate the "there's something missing here" crowd.

We didn't know Vader's downfall until the prequels. We know more in TFA about Ren's then we learned about Vader's in the entire OT

Empire's ending was literally Lando and Chewie going off to find Han. It's literally the same idea as what happened here. Jedi opens with a rescue Han mission.

Empire is as unresolved as TFA if not more because it's basically a "the bad guys have won movie". This isn't a bad thing. It's a trilogy they should all be watched as a whole anyway. ANH stands alone the most because they had no idea they'd get a sequel.


I'd love an extended cut.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'd love an extended cut.

We can come together on that.

I mostly liked the movie... just want its seams ironed out.

 

[excelsiorlef]

We can come together on that.

I mostly liked the movie... just want its seams ironed out.

I just loved what we got so am down for more exceot maybe that Leia New Republic scene because her first appearance in TFA is perfect

 

[Monocle]

And the critical reception for Ep3 is that it's almost as good as Ep6 i'm going to take a guess that you disagree with that.

Well it did seem pretty good in proximity to Episode 2. Still does. TFA is obviously a significant cut above any of the prequels though, and that was recognized by the majority of critics.

 

[DieEnteWurzel]

I can't say I'm surprised to see how big this thread has gotten. Reading through it, I see that some of you have put up fair arguments (while a few others have put up less-than-intelligent ones).

I'm seeing a lot of people repeating the same arguments, so I'd like to spin this discussion in a different direction by offering up another major issue I have with the film.

I'd like to address just how rushed The Force Awakens is when it comes to its new characters.

Here's a scene that I feel accurately reflects this particular gripe that I have with TFA:

Rey and Finn have just escaped Jakku aboard the Falcon. There's finally a moment of downtime; a moment ripe for some substantial character development. The film's 'heroes' finally introduce themselves to each-other.

"I'm Finn." "I'm Rey."

At last, we'll learn something about these characters, right? They'll learn interesting things about each other.

Rather than go this route, the writers instead opt for having the Falcon malfunction at that exact moment. It loudly spits steam from its mechanical underbelly, interrupting Rey and Finn's first quiet moment together, and consequentially triggering them to action.

If this scene could speak: "Hey, you two! What are you doing talking over there? This is a Star Wars movie, remember? Get over here and start doing all of those Star Wars things that we all remember!"

Rey and Finn never really share those essential character-defining moments. They're constantly fighting to survive, and the film mistakes this for genuine bonding.

Because of this, I find scenes like Rey's abduction at the pirate planet difficult to watch. When Finn sees Rey being carried into Kylo Ren's starship, he stops everything that he's doing to dramatically sprint in her direction, stop, and yell out "REYYYYYY!!!!"

How much does Finn know about Rey at this point? He doesn't know that she was a scavenger fighting against an incredibly harsh environment. He doesn't know that she's been waiting for her family for most of her life. He knows NOTHING about her, except that she can handle herself in a fight and is mechanically-inclined.

Emotional moments like these are not earned. And there's a handful of moments like these stringed throughout TFA. The film expects the audience to accept these characters for what they are at the most superficial level: A lonely scavenger and a Stormtrooper who has a moral compass.

Think about it. Besides Rey choosing to save BB-8 and Finn deciding to not leave with the pirates, what character-defining choices do we see them make? The writers choose to supply us with the absolute minimum amount of information possible about these characters, because there's no time. We just see them fighting hordes of enemies together, and apparently, that's enough to get us to 'relate' to them.



It's just lazy writing.

This bothered me the most about TFA, why is everything always rushed, constant action?
Why don't people take time to talk to each other? Why is everybody out of breath running all the time (i noticed this in the 2nd (? iirc) trailer with Fin, dude is gasping for air every shot wtf??)

The falcon scene is a perfect example imo, when i got to it in the movie I was so happy. Finally the main characters get to talk to eachother and we can get to know them. But instead somerhing breaks, whyyyy? :[

Tell me about this amazing Galaxy, tell me what happend to the Republic after E VI, tell me anything please, about live in the First Order idk, anything.

The OT has so many more quite, slow dialog scenes and imo is much better for it.

 

[Nev]

Leia Organa:
Leia has been fighting the same war for thirty years and has failed to stop the Empire from re-emerging into a position of ridiculous, unparalleled power. In fact, they may be more powerful than ever, given that their new Death Star -cough- Starkiller Base can destroy a whole bunch of planets at once with the power of the sun! How did a crumbling Empire acquire the resources for such a project without being noticed? How could Leia fail to address the issue of Starkiller Base before its completion? Is it merely incompetence on her part as a leader?

The galaxy is now in greater danger than ever before. What has Leia been doing for the past three decades? What was the point of the whole war? Were Luke, Han, and Leia to weak to stop the Empire?

This is my biggest complain. Like, what the fuck? Are the screenwriters really so disrespectful towards their public? I understand most people who would see the movie are probably under 20 and that Star Wars never had an actual serious, well-thought script or plot (not that it needed it anyways or was looking for it), but this is pathetic.

We are to assume that no one in the entire galaxy, with the republic and the rebels being in control of everything after ROTJ, NO ONE was able to see or stop the new empire to become even more powerful than the old empire. This shit is ridiculous.