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[Yaweee]

Void Rays are really only a problem in the mirror match, as the only real counter is down the same tech path (Phoenixes out of stargates). Stalkers don't do the job except in mass numbers, and god help them if the VRs are charged up.

As for Zerg, don't underestimate the value of getting a second queen (or more). Their anti-air attack is very good, they can heal each other, and once your opponent has stopped going air they can still be tremendously useful in laying down the Creep Superhighway to the enemy base.

 

[aznpxdd]

Mass void rays is probably the easiest thing for a protoss player to counter though (IMO at least). A well microed fleet of Phoenixes, because they can move while shooting now, and move faster than void rays as well should be able to shred through the void rays, and after that, go harass some probes or something :lol. Just don't let them get enough resources to mass anything and you should be good.

Phoenix are terrible against Void Rays...being able to move and attack at the same time doesn't mean much when their attack range is the same/shorter.

 

[watervengeance]

This game gives me mood swings.

 

[Chris R]

Phoenix are terrible against Void Rays...being able to move and attack at the same time doesn't mean much when their attack range is the same/shorter.

Well I haven't really had any issue throwing Phoenix/Stalkers up against Void Rays. Attack and move/blink, over and over.

 

[Hazaro]

Your opponent should be using the void rays way before blink.
Charged void rays (they should almost always be charged or in a position to flee) just tear through everything.

 

[jasonng]

Copper League here.

Spoiler

Don't laugh.

Thanks to this thread I learn the importance of scouting. It was PvP on Steppes and I was trying to incorporate scouting in my build order. I'm sure I should've scouted earlier but I was fast enough to catch my opponent build a forge right after his first pylon. I immediately assumed he was going for a cannon cheese and scouted my own base. I was able to get two zealots out before he sent in his probe in my base and ended up walling my ramp with cannons. I switched my plan from spamming gateways to building void rays.

Thinking the guy had upped me in resources, I sent out two void rays to harass his probes and possible expansion with two more on the way. He was only able to pull out a colossi and a few zealots right before I wrecked his pylons and sent them to my base for an all out attack. I had three more void rays sailing comfortably above my base so needless to say, I won. If it wasn't for that scout, I wouldn't been able to prep for his cannons.

 

[kmc]

grind.core

please add me

i like zerg

 

[Zertez]

Void Rays are really only a problem in the mirror match, as the only real counter is down the same tech path (Phoenixes out of stargates). Stalkers don't do the job except in mass numbers, and god help them if the VRs are charged up.

As for Zerg, don't underestimate the value of getting a second queen (or more). Their anti-air attack is very good, they can heal each other, and once your opponent has stopped going air they can still be tremendously useful in laying down the Creep Superhighway to the enemy base.

Queens are invaluable base defenders. They can a little tough to micro at first, but transfusion on other Queens or Spine Crawlers will save your ass a lot.

 

[Xirj]

I have to say I'm finally not afraid of reaper rush (to think when I played T, I used to do it). The fast teching with CC only hastens the way to void rays. I did get screwed in a 2v2 with opponents being T and Z. I left my ramp not so sealed because of teching to stalkers. May introduce a sentry or to in the build to counter the zergling rush but it is so hard to give up that 100gas so early.

I do love how when you get a critical mass of VR's even a mass of marines can't stop em.

 

[watervengeance]

I didn't even know that Overlords still had the Transport ability. I've never seen anyone use it, not even in high level replays. :lol

Needless to say, I just got doomdropped.

 

[west]

Phoenix are terrible against Void Rays...being able to move and attack at the same time doesn't mean much when their attack range is the same/shorter.

Phoenix seems pretty terrible as AA in all cases. Seems to me equal resources in void rays kills air alot better. Micro does not really help since void rays have crazy range. If i try to micro the phoenix to break the ray it will just end up dying before getting out. The bigger the numbers of units the more the battle tips in the rays favour. I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Totakeke]

Does anyone have a good replay pack of protoss 1v1 games? I just started playing 2 days ago and I'm in the silver league. I'm starting to get a grasp of what counters what but I need serious build order knowledge. For example I can scout a zerg and see him going roaches, but my builds are always too slow to pump enough immortals in time to counter his push.

I don't see really see anyone using battleship and carriers, do they actually counter anything or are they solely very late game units now?

Also is it me or does anyone want maps that actually don't have chokes/ramps leading out of your base? It kinds of forces me to go for a robo bay + observer every game... after I do my gateway and cybernetics, is this supposed to be normal?

 

[west]

Also is it me or does anyone want maps that actually don't have chokes/ramps leading out of your base?

Raises hand

Now every game starts with the standard wall building. I certanly think some non wall-able maps would make the game more interesting.
It just feels like the early game is really limited in some matchups. Easier to balance, but booring.

But hey I'm a total scrub so what do I know

 

[DurielBlack]

Does anyone have a good replay pack of protoss 1v1 games? I just started playing 2 days ago and I'm in the silver league. I'm starting to get a grasp of what counters what but I need serious build order knowledge. For example I can scout a zerg and see him going roaches, but my builds are always too slow to pump enough immortals in time to counter his push.

I don't see really see anyone using battleship and carriers, do they actually counter anything or are they solely very late game units now?

Also is it me or does anyone want maps that actually don't have chokes/ramps leading out of your base? It kinds of forces me to go for a robo bay + observer every game... after I do my gateway and cybernetics, is this supposed to be normal?

BCs are pretty good but are expensive and tier 3, so you rarely see them. Carriers are crap, especially when compared to the Void Ray.

As for immortal vs roach I never quite got the hang on that one either. Something about the build order I was never able to get quite right. I would see other protoss with 5+ immortals when I only had 2-3. Immortals DO destroy roaches pretty quick. I think I spend too much chrono boost on probes and not enough boost on the robo facility.

Queens are invaluable base defenders. They can a little tough to micro at first, but transfusion on other Queens or Spine Crawlers will save your ass a lot.

This is true. I recently started playing as zerg and find it just about the only way to counter early air harrass. This also kind of sucks. They should buff the roach and make it tier 2.5 and put the Hydralisk back where it belongs, or buff the hydralisk. Queens should be more for macro mechanics and a defensive SUPPORT role, not as your main form of defense.

More experienced players might have differing opinions, I have been playing mostly Terran and don't have that much experience with Zerg yet.

 

[zoukka]

Queens don't work as some lone defence against anything. One queen loses to one banshee/ray/a pair of mutas/phoenixes. Two queens can be pretty effective if you have enough energy for transfusion though. Still they only work to prevent quick air cheese.

Queens <3

 

[MisterAnderson]

Also is it me or does anyone want maps that actually don't have chokes/ramps leading out of your base? It kinds of forces me to go for a robo bay + observer every game... after I do my gateway and cybernetics, is this supposed to be normal?

Raises hand

You guys do realize that Zerglings and Hellions would pretty much be able to just freely harass your mineral line right?

And I'm not quite sure having a choke forces you to go for robo bay + observer (observers are pretty essential at any rate, just confused as to what having a choke has to do with this). Also you could always go hallucination + sentry for scouting instead of Observer (unless you need the detection)

 

[fanboi]

Thank you NIN and Knives for double penetrating me yesterday... with air.

Appreciated.

Fortunley you brought lube when the party came to west

 

[Totakeke]

You guys do realize that Zerglings and Hellions would pretty much be able to just freely harass your mineral line right?

And I'm not quite sure having a choke forces you to go for robo bay + observer (observers are pretty essential at any rate, just confused as to what having a choke has to do with this). Also you could always go hallucination + sentry for scouting instead of Observer (unless you need the detection)

You could always choke around your own base rather than have the map provide an easy choke for you. An easy choke at the ramp = your ground units cannot move in. So against a terran who establishes the wall early, you have no idea wtf he is doing and you're forced to go for a fast observer.

And if no easy map choke = automatically lose to zerglings and hellions, there must be something wrong with the game.

 

[west]

You guys do realize that Zerglings and Hellions would pretty much be able to just freely harass your mineral line right?

Yes, i do.

But then Blizzard would actually have to balance the early game... walling feels like a copout. WC3 works just fine, worker harass and all.

I think walling of should be a tradeoff, now its just free while building your other stuff. Early harass is not really an option atm since you need transports.

EDIT: Also: Balancing a game around map chokepoints feels really limiting from a custom mapping stand point. Basically they are now forcing everyone to use ramps.

 

[west]

Thank you NIN and Knives for double penetrating me yesterday... with air.

Appreciated.

Fortunley you brought lube when the party came to west

Good times.

I picked upp some new Protos strats from Knives, so not a total loss.

 

[fanboi]

Yay!

One more player in the EU turney and we are complete!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=394589

EDIT: ^ nice.

 

[Hazaro]

You could always choke around your own base rather than have the map provide an easy choke for you. An easy choke at the ramp = your ground units cannot move in. So against a terran who establishes the wall early, you have no idea wtf he is doing and you're forced to go for a fast observer.

And if no easy map choke = automatically lose to zerglings and hellions, there must be something wrong with the game.

The only thing wrong is your scouting, unit placement, and building placement.

Build buildings to narrow your opening. Place units where they can be an effective choke or get in a better number of shots / deter harass. Place plyons/tech buildings/supply depots at ends of your mineral line so units cannot pass behind them.

Additionally since it is early game you can just walk a stalker up the ramp and run away. You'll regen your shields and since he won't have slow researched you'll get to see part of what the Terran is doing.

 

[west]

The only thing wrong is your scouting, unit placement, and building placement.

Build buildings to narrow your opening. Place units where they can be an effective choke or get in a better number of shots / deter harass. Place plyons/tech buildings/supply depots at ends of your mineral line so units cannot pass behind them.

Additionally since it is early game you can just walk a stalker up the ramp and run away. You'll regen your shields and since he won't have slow researched you'll get to see part of what the Terran is doing.

I think you read that post out of context.

 

[MisterAnderson]

You could always choke around your own base rather than have the map provide an easy choke for you. An easy choke at the ramp = your ground units cannot move in. So against a terran who establishes the wall early, you have no idea wtf he is doing and you're forced to go for a fast observer.

And if no easy map choke = automatically lose to zerglings and hellions, there must be something wrong with the game.

1) Choking around your entire base perimeter would take much too long to be worthwhile at all.

2) You aren't forced to get a fast observer, you can research hallucinate and use a Sentry to scout with a hallucinated Phoenix, which is arguably the best way to scout in the game that a lot of players tend to forget about (me included up until recently).

3) Am I mistaken or were 90% of StarCraft 1 maps also based around the idea that every main had one main choke to defend? At least in SC2 a lot of maps have a destructible backdoor entrance which mixes things up a bit. Also some maps like Scrap Station have wider chokes that are harder to defend. Not to mention that there are now some units that can cliff jump/cliff walk/blink up cliffs. If you're having that much trouble with a choke you could always blink up the side of the choke cliff, destroy the supply depot and run your ground force in. There are any number of ways but I'll just stop there lol.

Yes, i do.

But then Blizzard would actually have to balance the early game... walling feels like a copout. WC3 works just fine, worker harass and all.

I think walling of should be a tradeoff, now its just free while building your other stuff. Early harass is not really an option atm since you need transports.

EDIT: Also: Balancing a game around map chokepoints feels really limiting from a custom mapping stand point. Basically they are now forcing everyone to use ramps.

Early game feels balanced to me. Choke points played a major part in SC1 (unless I'm remembering wrong?) so I see no reason to be surprised that they kept the basic map layout similar in that respect.

I see where you guys are coming from, but part of the fun at least for me is breaking through your opponent's choke, and in most cases it's not too difficult anyway. Walling off only really buys a bit of time and prevents Speedlings/Hellions easy access to your mineral line. Macro heavy games revolve heavily around at least two base play, in which case the natural expansion typically has a wider choke to defend anyway. I see nothing wrong with the normal setup of main bases having a single main choke + possible destructible backdoor.

 

[Totakeke]

Well it's not about losing units while scouting that I'm concerned about. Phoenixes are fast enough that I'm willing to risk swooping around just to see what the opponent is about IF I do have them. It's just being forced to make certain buildings every game that kinda irks me. In this case it's either stargate or robotics as Protoss. While you're making those buildings, he may be already building up for a push and you just lost time and resources for doing those things to scout. i.e. I lost some games because he teched straight to air harass, and to respond, I needed to build more gateways or stargates rapidly enough before he reaches me.

But of course I'm still new to the game and could be totally wrong on how the games mostly play out.

 

[MisterAnderson]

Well it's not about losing units while scouting that I'm concerned about. Phoenixes are fast enough that I'm willing to risk swooping around just to see what the opponent is about IF I do have them. It's just being forced to make certain buildings every game that kinda irks me. In this case it's either stargate or robotics as Protoss. While you're making those buildings, he may be already building up for a push and you just lost time and resources for doing those things to scout.

But of course I'm still new to the game and could be totally wrong on how the games mostly play out.

I think you may have misunderstood my suggestion. Hallucinate is a Sentry ability (built from the Gateway but requires Cybernetics Core). The ability however must be researched at the Cybernetics Core. So you aren't forced to scout by using a Robotics Facility or a Stargate. You can build a Sentry when your Cyber Core finishes, research Hallucinate from your Cyber Core, and then cast a hallucinated Phoenix to scout your enemy. I wasn't suggesting you build a Stargate and an actual Phoenix to scout.

Edit: I think maybe you're confused because if I remember correctly, Hallucinate in SC1 required you had a unit to make a hallucination of. In SC2 however, the Sentry creates a hallucination out of nothing but energy. It doesn't require a "host" to copy from. This is especially useful during battles to draw fire to false Collosi or whatnot. It's also useful to confuse your opponent into making them think you have a certain kind of tech when you actually don't. But most of all it's an incredibly useful scouting tool, as Phoenixes are the fastest unit in the game.

 

[Hazaro]

Well it's not about losing units while scouting that I'm concerned about. Phoenixes are fast enough that I'm willing to risk swooping around just to see what the opponent is about IF I do have them. It's just being forced to make certain buildings every game that kinda irks me. In this case it's either stargate or robotics as Protoss. While you're making those buildings, he may be already building up for a push and you just lost time and resources for doing those things to scout.

But of course I'm still new to the game and could be totally wrong on how the games mostly play out.

Terran can't do that many things early game. Just poke in with a stalker and check:
1 if his rax has an addon
2 what addon it is
3 you should scout after pylon and your probe should be able to get inside on most maps

The other way around Terran usually only has his 1 SCV to scout and after that dies most can't afford to use a scan early game so they are in the same position as you. A 3 or 4 gate push early game can just win the game.

Also if nothing makes sense let me know since it is late.

 

[Totakeke]

I think you may have misunderstood my suggestion. Hallucinate is a Sentry ability (built from the Gateway but requires Cybernetics Core). The ability however must be researched at the Cybernetics Core. So you aren't forced to scout by using a Robotics Facility or a Stargate. You can build a Sentry when your Cyber Core finishes, research Hallucinate from your Cyber Core, and then cast a hallucinated Phoenix to scout your enemy. I wasn't suggesting you build a Stargate and an actual Phoenix to scout.

Edit: I think maybe you're confused because if I remember correctly, Hallucinate in SC1 required you had a unit to make a hallucination of. In SC2 however, the Sentry creates a hallucination out of nothing but energy. It doesn't require a "host" to copy from. This is especially useful during battles to draw fire to false Collosi or whatnot. It's also useful to confuse your opponent into making them think you have a certain kind of tech when you actually don't. But most of all it's an incredibly useful scouting tool, as Phoenixes are the fastest unit in the game.

Damn, you're right. I poked into that ability once and that didn't occur to me. Now why have I've never seen anyone actually using that in my games is boggling... maybe I shouldn't be surprised since most people don't even scout.

Terran can't do that many things early game. Just poke in with a stalker and check:
1 if his rax has an addon
2 what addon it is
3 you should scout after pylon and your probe should be able to get inside on most maps

The other way around Terran usually only has his 1 SCV to scout and after that dies most can't afford to use a scan early game so they are in the same position as you. A 3 or 4 gate push early game can just win the game.

Also if nothing makes sense let me know since it is late.

Thanks for the tips. Usually my issue is that I can't determine whether he goes for reapers or marauders from the tech lab addon, and after I lose access from my initial probe scout, then I'm made into worrying whether he has went on for air because Protoss ground/air dichotomy kinda sucks. Only thing that is safe are stalkers. But if I can scout them easier, then it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[kmc]

Just played a great game. Great because it really showed me that I am improving even tho sometimes I think I'm not.

2v2 Terran/Zerg(me) vs Protoss/Terran. Protoss cannons building in my base, spotted it just in time. I survive initial marine/zealot push with ling/roach while fast teching to muta. I hit mineral lines. GG..thanks for playing. What i liked was how i reacted calmly to the "cheese", i guess you could call it. Even a few days ago I'd have been in a panic and losing in an embarrassing way. lol

 

[LOZLINK]

Jesus Christ I suck at this :lol

 

[snack]

Jesus Christ I suck at this :lol

I'm on the same boat. :lol

 

[Totakeke]

Damn, you're right. I poked into that ability once and that didn't occur to me. Now why have I've never seen anyone actually using that in my games is boggling... maybe I shouldn't be surprised since most people don't even scout.

Oh, it costs 100 minerals and 100 gas to research at cybernetics... but could be still worthwhile depending on the army makeup.. hmm.

 

[MisterAnderson]

Oh, it costs 100 minerals and 100 gas to research at cybernetics... but could be still worthwhile depending on the army makeup.. hmm.

Well it's cheaper than teching to an Observer.

Sentry: 50/100
Hallucinate: 100/100
Total: 150/200

Robotics Facility: 200/200
Observer: 50/100
Total: 250/300

I didn't count the Cybernetic Core's cost to the Hallucinate cost since you pretty much NEED this building unless you're doing some kind of Gateway cheese. If you're doing a more unorthodox Protoss build like a fast Stargate or something, it's usually a good idea to skip the Robotics Facility in which case getting Hallucinate for scouting purposes is a good idea since Observers are going to be coming much later.

I'm not suggesting skipping Robotics often, as it's a pretty essential building itself, but I'm just trying to put into perspective that Hallucinate is a great Observer alternative and even if you're not going to need it for scouting, if you know you're going to be getting lots of Sentries it's a very versatile ability to have that is often overlooked.

 

[Hazaro]

You have to know you are giving up a guardian shield (oh my god so important jesus christ) or 2 forcefields.

Just poke in with a stalker. If terran is going air, just attack if he doesn't have a bunker. If he does just toss down a forge + a cannon (or 2) at your base and get your +1 attack early. No harm done. Alternatively get a void ray out as well. Banshees take 60 seconds to build so they aren't exactly going to be streaming at you. Also since the gas cost for factory/storport/techlab/each banshee is subsantial early game the Terran probably will have a late stim (or later banshees). Remember everything has a tradeoff.

 

[Totakeke]

Well it's cheaper than teching to an Observer.

Yeah, but it also has a downside of being a temporary scout thing. Well it's good to know about that ability nonetheless.

I've thought about faking your tech using hallucination, but since protoss units are pretty much air to air or ground to ground except for void rays, it seems then it becomes pretty dumb. You fake colossus and they go air, you fake void rays and they go for more air... I guess it's still useful for stopping a potential push... maybe.

 

[iamblades]

You have to know you are giving up a guardian shield (oh my god so important jesus christ) or 2 forcefields.

Just poke in with a stalker. If terran is going air, just attack if he doesn't have a bunker. If he does just toss down a forge + a cannon (or 2) at your base and get your +1 attack early. No harm done. Alternatively get a void ray out as well. Banshees take 60 seconds to build so they aren't exactly going to be streaming at you. Also since the gas cost for factory/storport/techlab/each banshee is subsantial early game the Terran probably will have a late stim (or later banshees). Remember everything has a tradeoff.

depending on how you use it in combat, hallucinate can soak up quite a bit more damage than guardian shield, and be much more useful than forcefield.

I normally go heavy robo anyway, so I don't often research hallucinate strictly for scouting purposes, but if your opponent has a a roughly even force in a choke, a couple hallucinations can soak up enough damage to give you the advantage. If your opponent has tanks or colossi, a bunch of hallucinated zealots can give your stalkers and sentries time to get in range and snipe them. lots of situational uses for the spell.

You only need a few sentries to GS your entire army for the duration of combat, and forcefield is only useful vs certain army compositions and is really cheap, energy wise. I use a very sentry heavy army most of the time though, so ymmv

 

[Zzoram]

The lack of large maps is a problem. Large maps make mobility and positioning matter more, while with small maps, it hardly matters.

 

[MisterAnderson]

Yeah, but it also has a downside of being a temporary scout thing. Well it's good to know about that ability nonetheless.

I've thought about faking your tech using hallucination, but since protoss units are pretty much air to air or ground to ground except for void rays, it seems then it becomes pretty dumb. You fake colossus and they go air, you fake void rays and they go for more air... I guess it's still useful for stopping a potential push... maybe.

Well they last a lot longer than you'd expect, plus your Sentries have the option to use it for the rest of the game or at least by the time you get Observers out. Scouting is really important but yeah it's definitely a situational option, as well as combat uses of Hallucination but the payoff can be substantial.

And if you're against Terran, it's usually good to fool them to go air because that means Vikings, which are completely useless versus a Protoss ground force.

 

[Feep]

Hmm.

I'm completed three of my five initial ranking matches, and I've won all three...albeit, the third, by a hair. (Void Rays are fucking ridiculous. He was outplaying me, until my three void rays just essentially wiped out his entire force.)

I know absolutely ZERO about strategy. I don't scout for this reason; I can't even recognize what Terran/Zerg structures are by looking at them, or what they do, or what strategy they're meant to imply. I can't micro worth shit, either. I just right-click bitches and hope they explode. But I think I understand why I'm doing this well.

I'm just fucking *faster* than other people.

I'm good at multitasking, I know my build order, and I click like a motherfucker. My build order is almost always coming out faster than my opponent's, I expand to a second Nexus fairly quickly, and the economic advantage is outweighing any deficiencies in my knowledge of the game. I kind of wish this weren't true; I would like the game to be less real-time and more strategy, I suppose, but c'est la vie.

 

[Zertez]

You guys do realize that Zerglings and Hellions would pretty much be able to just freely harass your mineral line right?

And I'm not quite sure having a choke forces you to go for robo bay + observer (observers are pretty essential at any rate, just confused as to what having a choke has to do with this). Also you could always go hallucination + sentry for scouting instead of Observer (unless you need the detection)

Walling up really isnt possible for Zerg early on. You have to deal with early harass pretty much in every game, no matter your placement of buildings. It is just part of the game, and you expect it. I dont see why other races cant prepare and defend it as well. I think choke points are a good part of any mp map, but Im not sure I would classify some of the ramps in SC2 as choke points. They turn into a high hp wall.

Playing as Zerg, fighting off early rushes/economy harassment from the ground as well as the air, is all part of the game. I think they should make up their mind, either they want to have constant harassment from ground units or not. Personally I rather see them allow the harassment, but if they choose not to, at least give all 3 races the ability to wall up. Having the luxury of building a wall allows you to focus on other things and not spend as many resources on base defense. I think games would be more interesting, if they opened up things a little more.

 

[Zertez]

I didn't even know that Overlords still had the Transport ability. I've never seen anyone use it, not even in high level replays. :lol

Needless to say, I just got doomdropped.

Using Overlords to carpet bomb large armies with Banelings is pretty funny. I dont see it used much though. The people Ive seen use it, use it because they accidentally research ventral sacs :lol I believe I saw a video of Psy using it.

 

[Won]

Walling up really isnt possible for Zerg early on. You have to deal with early harass pretty much in every game, no matter your placement of buildings. It is just part of the game, and you expect it. I dont see why other races cant prepare and defend it as well. I think choke points are a good part of any mp map, but Im not sure I would classify some of the ramps in SC2 as choke points. They turn into a high hp wall.

Playing as Zerg, fighting off early rushes/economy harassment from the ground as well as the air, is all part of the game. I think they should make up their mind, either they want to have constant harassment from ground units or not. Personally I rather see them allow the harassment, but if they choose not to, at least give all 3 races the ability to wall up. Having the luxury of building a wall allows you to focus on other things and not spend as many resources on base defense. I think games would be more interesting, if they opened up things a little more.

I hope you are not complaining that the 3 different races are...different.

 

[MisterAnderson]

Hmm.

I'm completed three of my five initial ranking matches, and I've won all three...albeit, the third, by a hair. (Void Rays are fucking ridiculous. He was outplaying me, until my three void rays just essentially wiped out his entire force.)

I know absolutely ZERO about strategy. I don't scout for this reason; I can't even recognize what Terran/Zerg structures are by looking at them, or what they do, or what strategy they're meant to imply. I can't micro worth shit, either. I just right-click bitches and hope they explode. But I think I understand why I'm doing this well.

I'm just fucking *faster* than other people.

I'm good at multitasking, I know my build order, and I click like a motherfucker. My build order is almost always coming out faster than my opponent's, I expand to a second Nexus fairly quickly, and the economic advantage is outweighing any deficiencies in my knowledge of the game. I kind of wish this weren't true; I would like the game to be less real-time and more strategy, I suppose, but c'est la vie.

Not to diminish your accomplishment of getting your winning streak, but placement matches are a bad way to judge what to expect from the overall game. Soon you're going to have to learn to scout and interpret the intel you get from your opponent or you will likely get crushed very often. Sure getting your stuff out fast is great, and essential at higher level play. But that won't help you if you're getting the wrong units to go up against your enemy's army composition. Blindly running into battle with an army isn't a good way to play, as the only way this would work is if you get lucky and you happen to not get units that the enemy hasn't countered (which if they are any good they would have scouted you and done just that).

 

[MisterAnderson]

Walling up really isnt possible for Zerg early on. You have to deal with early harass pretty much in every game, no matter your placement of buildings. It is just part of the game, and you expect it. I dont see why other races cant prepare and defend it as well. I think choke points are a good part of any mp map, but Im not sure I would classify some of the ramps in SC2 as choke points. They turn into a high hp wall.

Playing as Zerg, fighting off early rushes/economy harassment from the ground as well as the air, is all part of the game. I think they should make up their mind, either they want to have constant harassment from ground units or not. Personally I rather see them allow the harassment, but if they choose not to, at least give all 3 races the ability to wall up. Having the luxury of building a wall allows you to focus on other things and not spend as many resources on base defense. I think games would be more interesting, if they opened up things a little more.

Roaches are Zerg's wall, as well as a Queen or two + Crawlers. I've also seen a combination of those plus an evolution chamber being used to wall up just outside Metalopolis' main by Idra. Which would work just as well on Blistering Sands, Lost Temple, and Steppes of War by the way the Naturals are set up.

If you scout out Hellions or Speedlings, get some Roaches and have them hold position at the choke. You can even put a queen there as well, especially if you FE'd, keeping your Queen holding position at the choke is a good spot if you are expecting some Hellion or Speedling harass. Two Queens side by side wall up completely. Just remember to tell your units to hold position or else they will move and your wall seal will be broken.

And don't forget about Queen's Creep Tumor, as you can pretty quickly spread the creep up to the choke and move up any Spine Crawlers you built near your mineral line to help defend the choke and aid your Roach Wall.

Edit: Damnit double post fail.

 

[iamblades]

Walling up really isnt possible for Zerg early on. You have to deal with early harass pretty much in every game, no matter your placement of buildings. It is just part of the game, and you expect it. I dont see why other races cant prepare and defend it as well. I think choke points are a good part of any mp map, but Im not sure I would classify some of the ramps in SC2 as choke points. They turn into a high hp wall.

Playing as Zerg, fighting off early rushes/economy harassment from the ground as well as the air, is all part of the game. I think they should make up their mind, either they want to have constant harassment from ground units or not. Personally I rather see them allow the harassment, but if they choose not to, at least give all 3 races the ability to wall up. Having the luxury of building a wall allows you to focus on other things and not spend as many resources on base defense. I think games would be more interesting, if they opened up things a little more.

The reason zerg have no ability to wall off is that the starting unit is fast enough to catch pretty much any harass, and they get a speed bonus on creep. Harrassing a zerg early game is pretty much impossible unless you get there before the pool finishes.

I rarely see complete wall offs from protoss either, because they have stalkers that are fast enough to chase off harassment, and a couple of zealots controlled well can wipe out a lot of zerglings, and sentry force field to block off the entrance.

Terran is really the only race that needs to wall in, as marines lose to zealots, and zerglings can run right by them and get into the mineral line

I like the way each race has it's own strategy for base defense personally.

Zerg don't wall off because they don't need to, their units are fast enough to give them early game map control in pretty much every matchup.

 

[Hazaro]

depending on how you use it in combat, hallucinate can soak up quite a bit more damage than guardian shield, and be much more useful than forcefield.

I normally go heavy robo anyway, so I don't often research hallucinate strictly for scouting purposes, but if your opponent has a a roughly even force in a choke, a couple hallucinations can soak up enough damage to give you the advantage. If your opponent has tanks or colossi, a bunch of hallucinated zealots can give your stalkers and sentries time to get in range and snipe them. lots of situational uses for the spell.

You only need a few sentries to GS your entire army for the duration of combat, and forcefield is only useful vs certain army compositions and is really cheap, energy wise. I use a very sentry heavy army most of the time though, so ymmv

Oh yeah for sure. Adding in a hallu immortal or 2 will soak up 2-4 volleys of fire and that helsp a ton. The problem with this is I think EMP kills hallucinations instantly?

Pretty sure the shield lasts even if the sentry energy is 0, plus the DPS reduction is just such a nice bonus it is hard to say no to it. Cutting marines DPS by 33% is pretty significant. Zealots are also much underrated I feel, they soak up an insane amount of damage from marauders. Even with kiting it can buy you a great deal of time.

 

[Zertez]

Roaches are Zerg's wall, as well as a Queen or two + Crawlers. I've also seen a combination of those plus an evolution chamber being used to wall up just outside Metalopolis' main by Idra. Which would work just as well on Blistering Sands, Lost Temple, and Steppes of War by the way the Naturals are set up.

If you scout out Hellions or Speedlings, get some Roaches and have them hold position at the choke. You can even put a queen there as well, especially if you FE'd, keeping your Queen holding position at the choke is a good spot if you are expecting some Hellion or Speedling harass. Two Queens side by side wall up completely. Just remember to tell your units to hold position or else they will move and your wall seal will be broken.

And don't forget about Queen's Creep Tumor, as you can pretty quickly spread the creep up to the choke and move up any Spine Crawlers you built near your mineral line to help defend the choke and aid your Roach Wall.

Edit: Damnit double post fail.

Yeah all those work great. The Zerg have many things to defend off early harassment or economy disruptions, they just dont have the luxury of building a temporary wall.

 

[Hazaro]

Yeah all those work great. The Zerg have many things to defend off early harassment or economy disruptions, they just dont have the luxury of building a temporary wall.

2 spines + a creep tumor in middle will wall... maybe. It was in patch 1 I might have seen this?

 

[iamblades]

Oh yeah for sure. Adding in a hallu immortal or 2 will soak up 2-4 volleys of fire and that helsp a ton. The problem with this is I think EMP kills hallucinations instantly?

Pretty sure the shield lasts even if the sentry energy is 0, plus the DPS reduction is just such a nice bonus it is hard to say no to it. Cutting marines DPS by 33% is pretty significant. Zealots are also much underrated I feel, they soak up an insane amount of damage from marauders. Even with kiting it can buy you a great deal of time.

Yeah against the lighter damage units like marines and mutas, GS is amazing. Against melee and shorter ranged units, forcefield is. Against longer ranged heavy damage units, hallucinations up front are what you need to let your real units get in range.

 

[Mr Cola]

Hmm.

I'm completed three of my five initial ranking matches, and I've won all three...albeit, the third, by a hair. (Void Rays are fucking ridiculous. He was outplaying me, until my three void rays just essentially wiped out his entire force.)

I know absolutely ZERO about strategy. I don't scout for this reason; I can't even recognize what Terran/Zerg structures are by looking at them, or what they do, or what strategy they're meant to imply. I can't micro worth shit, either. I just right-click bitches and hope they explode. But I think I understand why I'm doing this well.

I'm just fucking *faster* than other people.

I'm good at multitasking, I know my build order, and I click like a motherfucker. My build order is almost always coming out faster than my opponent's, I expand to a second Nexus fairly quickly, and the economic advantage is outweighing any deficiencies in my knowledge of the game. I kind of wish this weren't true; I would like the game to be less real-time and more strategy, I suppose, but c'est la vie.

You are in for a very very rude awakening when you come up against someone who knows what they are doing.

Placement matches are random, you usually however play new players, the lowest of the low. No scouting? Anyone with half a brain who has played for more than a week will tear you a new one if they scout and you dont, even if your apm is good, he will counter it and he will ruin your base. I dont mean to sound harsh but your last line really shows how little you understand the game.

And this is coming from an awful player