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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)
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FromTheFuture
Member
At lower levels, don't try to hard to out think and perform elaborate strategies that you can't quite pull off. It's much safer and stronger to do a solid build, and in 2v2 there is absolutely nothing wrong with massing one unit, which will often be:scoobs said:
Protoss - Stalkers
Terran - Marauders
Zerg - Roaches & Hydralisks
As you may become more comfortable with 2v2 play, you can add the little intricate stuff that may work well all around (couple of Zealots, a few Marines, maybe some Hellions, Ghosts for EMP vs Protoss players, and so on).
I did it against him once so it's legit.FoxSpirit said:Seriously? Replay please.
Coming at you before 10 minutes with tanks AND ravens? Without a replay I won't dare comment on that
You push out with around 12 marines, 2 tanks with seige, and a raven with banshees rallied to your push.
It is pretty awesome.
*Here (Note I pushed out before 10 minutes, just waiting for banshee support and ability to throw another PDD later in a fight) Another tank + banshee is rallied to army as I expo (Shortly after this pic).
MisterAnderson said:
Have you tried infestors at all? Because taking over a couple of their siege tanks can clean up that MMM ball pretty quick. Also try not to push on the terrans walled in front door.. use muta's for harass and nidus network into an undefended part of their base if possible.
Take this with a grain of salt though because I'm only a bronze player.
That is a ton of gas (the limiting resource for spamming hydras / mutas / banelings) for getting an infestor pit + research + waiting for enegry + making 3 infestors + parasiting the tanks only to have the other tanks insta kill the tank/infestors.
I'd rather just spam units. If you are really good at spamming units (and knowing when to drone) and this doesn't work then try some harass / nydus / or infestor use.
I'd rather just spam units. If you are really good at spamming units (and knowing when to drone) and this doesn't work then try some harass / nydus / or infestor use.
MisterAnderson said:
Hellions can be a pain with a fast expand, but all of those others should be no real problem. But hellions are a pain against pretty much any zerg build, aside from maybe a roach heavy build, but I hate using roaches.
By the time they get a couple tanks or a decent number of marauders to your base, you should have speedlings, a couple spines, and a couple extra queens, and have the creep expanded outside your natural to well past siege tank range, and your spire or hydra den should be on the way at least. Speedlings on creep backed up by spines and a couple queens should have no problem dealing with any of those scenarios, especially is you micro your lings well and use transfusion properly.
It really depends on the map of course, but honestly with the creep bonus, I see no difference defending one base vs 2 in the early game, aside from maybe the hellions. Queens and spines should take care of them though. Defending 2 bases is actually probably a bit easier if only for the extra larva, which is the real reason zerg has to fast expand all the time pretty much.
Also its not like there is any strategy that is without risk, but if you compare it to fast expanding vs a 4 gate zealot push or a 9 pool or earlier ling rush(both of which would pretty much be suicide on all but the largest maps), fast expanding against terran is pretty easy.
Yes. Blocking your ramp just becomes an easy habit, and Terran can build retractable walls easily.eosos said:
Still not getting used to the roach cost of 2. The units just feel like they have no purpose. Early game it's easier to just mass lings and upgrade them, and they prove to be more versatile compared to roaches when coupled with later units like hydra/muta/etc. When I'm putting out roaches the number of overlords needed just to maintain them is just absurd, especially for a unit that has no anti-air versatility.
ChronicleX
Banned
valenti said:
Hon is poo, even LoL is better.
Dance In My Blood said:
I never liked roaches even when they were good, they are slow clumsy units with barely any range
All they are good at is soaking damage and preventing your hydras from getting in range. Lings can soak damage about as well for the cost(aside from heavy splash units), and they don't block your hydras. Plus lings are fast enough to get a surround and prevent them from escaping.
scoobs
Member
Okay so is there any counter at all to terran players in 2v2 that get 20 siege tanks?? We just ran into a team with mass mutalisks and siege tanks/marauders. It was impossible to do anything. Even with spore crawlers/photon cannons at our mineral lines the mass mutalisks were microd so well it was constant harass... and the siege tanks were just plowing through us. ARGH!
A bajillion phoenixes.scoobs said:
*Don't let them get in a position to do that. Starcraft is about retroactive thinking. It's not what can I do now, but... what could I have done to not put myself in this position.
Watch the replay and look for a timing window where you could have delayed them or harassed or attacked. I'm sure it is there. Scouting important too.
scoobs
Member
lol thats what i said to my friend. The problem with either of us getting air units to counter is that his teammate had mass mutalisks and the terran player also had mass marines. It wouldn't have worked.iamblades said:Well pretty much any air to ground units would do wonders.
But really the best way to beat that is to not let them get so many.
momolicious
Member
TurtleSnatcher said:When the beta comes back after its hiatus.. its going to feel like a diff game I bet.. kinda like how in wc3 during the beta they had a massive overhaul on lots of things.. Hopefully even the graphics get a nice bolster like wc3
do you have examples of the graphical changes during beta in WC3? pictures would be cool too
ChronicleX
Banned
valenti said:
I dont, that is why I do not play HoN. It is shite as a DotA knockoff and graphically looks like a low budget Call of Duty knockoff with textures shat out MS Paint where the only colours were green and brown.
PS - Grats on derailing :lol
Someone get in http://www.livestream.com/redemptivegaming and play telecom :lol he's looking for 1v1
Hazaro, go for it dude!
Hazaro, go for it dude!
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Nights like this im just like fuck this game....2v2s always getting rushed, so we rush then we get rushed against better...then somehow fucking void rays....fuck this game sometimes...fuck it.
Hallucinated meatshields are always awesome for breaking terran turtles.Hazaro said:
1. It IS a DotA knock off, unless you're saying the original game is shit.
2. As opposed to CoD's textures where evreything is varying degrees of brown from blown up dirty brown to light sandy brown?
3. No mention of gameplay at all? Really? Hell, HoN looks better than Starcraft 2. Graphically, Starcraft 2's only advantage is that the units are easier to discern but that's a given when you need to potentially have 400 units on screen.
ChronicleX
Banned
Halycon said:
1 - HoN has almost no original ideas of its own so it is a knockoff. LoL is not a knockoff because it is inspired by DotA and not a hero for hero, skill for skill copy of it. Not Even Demigod was a big a knockoff as HoN is, at least they tried to be slightly creative by at least having some ideas of their own.
2 - Um that is my point. You fail.
3 - ROFL at you. Gameplay wise it is geared towards morons so much that it makes the -EM mode of DotA look advanced in comparison. A team game that scores you for not playing as a team is just stupid.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Holy shit! I just had an epic 57 minute 2v2 Battle where I barely came out the victor. I think all of the minerals on the map had been mined at the end. In the end it was just down to me and one of the opponents, but my ally kept a few buildings alive and was rooting me along for the last 20 minutes or so.
I don't think I've had such an exciting gaming experience in a long time.
I don't think I've had such an exciting gaming experience in a long time.
So how do the pros get away with going 1 Gate into Cyber Core in PvP? I tried it against a guy who went double gateway and by the time I had a stalker out he had like 5 zealots. I had 2 zealots and 1 stalker blocking my choke but they just tore through my guys. I noticed that I probably could have choked better but it still seemed like his zealots would have won anyway.
US peeeeps, get up in telecom's stream, and challenge him in the chat! DO IT!
FromTheFuture
Member
Just to note, the entire point of HoN is to be a near exact copy of DotA with the bonuses of a stand alone engine and community system. The developers pretty much said so themselves, and asked IceFrog for permission to do so.ChronicleX said:
Slightly off topic, but how is every post you make so awful? I don't know how you do it.
If you scout your opponent going 2 Gate against you, you better hope you have a small choke. Your first Pylon/Gateway timing is important as well, as they determine how quickly you can pull out a Cybernetics Core. If you find yourself in a jam, you should stall with some Probes while boosting out your Stalker. If you micro correctly, you should be able to deal with any amount of Zealots with pure Stalkers. You may need to throw down extra Gateways if you catch sight of his Gateways so you can match him in production. In these situations, however, micro is key.ZealousD said:
1. Why fix what isn't broken? I liked playing dota, but a dedicated user interface would've made my life easier. Now I have HoN. So what if it's not different? If DotA is still more fun than LoL then HoN should be as well.ChronicleX said:
2. Misread it.
3. Do you, like, even play HoN? EM is the mode where people get rewarded for farming solo for 20 minutes. Having played for half the HoN beta and DotA for years I can easily say that it's identical to DotA in that respect.
ChronicleX
Banned
Halycon said:
1 - By that logic every FPS from now onwards should have exactly the same guns + levels as MW2 because that isnt broken, and every MMO should be a WoW Clone. Lack of originality is what makes games shite and worthless.
3 - That is again my point. DotA EM is shite and against the very foundations of what makes a good AoS map work. HoN is worse that. You have now failed twice. :lol
ZealousD said:
They get away with it because they make a second gateway while cyber core builds with double gas to spam sentries once it finishes, so then they just chain FF and snipe any zealots that come close.
ChronicleX said:
Okay, looking again at my build order, I think the timing on my second gateway was what killed me. I guess I had my thumb up my ass, because I had around 350 minerals sitting around and I was doing nothing with it until my CC finished. Probably would have had another stalker or a sentry out if I timed it better. If I had made a sentry though, I don't know if I would have had the energy for a FF.
MisterAnderson
Member
What's the fastest Zerg can get Mutas out? I have been experimenting versus easy A.I. to get a fast Muta build. The fastest I was able to get Mutas out (I got 3 out) was at the 7:15 mark. I noticed there was room for improvement in the build that could shave probably 15-25 seconds off (who knows maybe more, but I feel like I'm doing it very efficiently...even swapping drones from geysers to minerals at key points and vice versa.
Of course the problem with this is I'm extremely vulnerable for that opening 7 minutes as I only have a Queen. Are there any known fast Muta builds that don't involve being completely defenseless until the Mutas arrive? Once I hit that 7:15 mark, I can produce a steady stream of Mutas so it seems like a good strat if I scout a turtling ground force, but the problem with this strat is you have to start it before you scout the enemy...
Of course the problem with this is I'm extremely vulnerable for that opening 7 minutes as I only have a Queen. Are there any known fast Muta builds that don't involve being completely defenseless until the Mutas arrive? Once I hit that 7:15 mark, I can produce a steady stream of Mutas so it seems like a good strat if I scout a turtling ground force, but the problem with this strat is you have to start it before you scout the enemy...
ChronicleX
Banned
ZealousD said:
The other thing to take into account is building placement. You need to make a wall with a 1 unit gap then have your own zealots in that gap holding position, so they can only attack your own guy 1 at a time and cannon run past. Throw in a ranged unit/cannon to wail on them as they struggle to get through and they will back off or die.
ChronicleX
Banned
Halycon said:
Indeed they do start with enough for FF, just not enough for GS or Hallucination.
Were you boosting your zealots? He shouldn't have been able to get it out faster than you then, given travel time. Once Alumnus killed me with a single 10 gate Zealot to my 13 Gate, only because I made a mistake in positioning and accidentally placed it between his scouting probe and his zealot.ZealousD said:
ChronicleX said:
It's so awkward how the lol crowd constantly feel the need to vehemently defend their game every time hon is so much as mentioned in passing as a better and not-a-cheap-knockoff knockoff of dota while ripping hon for, well, the sake of ripping it I guess.
Not to mention the whole thing is childish. I mean are you really this ass hurt about hon being a successful game? How many people are in the lol thread complaining about lol while pimping hon?
ChronicleX said:
Jesus christ.
Halycon said:
First Chrono Boost went to probes. Subsequent chronos went to the two zealots and the stalker.
Travel time was actually pretty short, we spawned close together on Metalopolis. Upon closer inspection, I made a couple other mistakes. I'll go ahead and post the replay so people can learn from it.
http://www.mediafire.com/?gyydgttz2hw
1. Poor choke. My zealots did not properly protect my stalker.
2. Late timing on second gateway.
3. Poor placement on second pylon. Should have put it in range of the first gateway.
4. Got supply blocked.
So honestly, what's the best route? 10 gate or 13 gate?
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
One thing I'm proud of: No one (atleast in my league of silvers) can build Barracks as fast as I can. I have mastered Marine rush! The only problem is when the other team anticipates a marine rush, I have a 50% chance of crapping out. I finish games in less than 10 minutes since I build 5 Barracks and just spam marine after marine, only 11 workers and no vespene gas extraction. Any longer than 10 minutes or any slowdown by me and I'm done for. MY proudest victory was "2 on 1" Marine rush i.e. 2v2 but my partner was slow as hell and he was forced to land his Command Center in my base cause he was done for.
A few weeks ago, I faced a guy who, whenever attacked, said "PWNED BITCH! PWNED!!!". He did beat me after the long 20 minute+ match but I asked for a rematch and finished him off quicker than a dead hooker. He was like "WTF? MARINE RUSH, FUCK YOU BITCH!"
Adent said:
A few weeks ago, I faced a guy who, whenever attacked, said "PWNED BITCH! PWNED!!!". He did beat me after the long 20 minute+ match but I asked for a rematch and finished him off quicker than a dead hooker. He was like "WTF? MARINE RUSH, FUCK YOU BITCH!"
FromTheFuture
Member
Ahh, good times~Halycon said:
Anyway, where ya been, Haly? I miss you
Finals and EVE and I'm bored of Starcraft and am looking to get back into HoN.FromTheFuture said:Ahh, good times~
Anyway, where ya been, Haly? I miss you
I'll play more during the summer, but I go to europe pretty soon after school lets out.
I think 10 gate is viable if you know it's PvP (and you know within a reasonable amount of time where your opponent is, like, preferably before you build your first gate), if you're going for a proxy, if you know the other player likes to tech, or if you just like zealots and fast paced games. Otherwise 13 gate is the generally safer route to go.
I didn't say that. I said HoN doesn't hurt anyone for making a DotA experience more streamlined for DotA fans. And just because you're being "creative" with something doesn't mean the game is actually better. For someone who hates "lack of originality" you sure seem to enjoy Starcraft 2.
Sorry. I guess every game should be people tryinghard. Sometimes I play a game to get better at it (non -em games, ladder SC2/WC3 maps, EVE piracy), sometimes I just play to cool down (em games, TD and other mods/money maps, mining/exploration). There's a lot of pressure on you to preform well in non -em games. Sometimes I just want to rape noobs. Is that wrong? Should every game be as competitive as possible? Wouldn't that be falling to your "lack of creativity" argument if every game forced players to play at their best?
(I repeat from experience, HoN em is exactly the same as DotA em)
One thing that's always important to note, keep an eye on any scout that enters your base. Never let them go into a fog. Did a ZvP and he tried to cannon rush me. Caught his pylon while it was building and then did a fairly quick tech to mutas and killed him.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Not really but I get people who try to talk to me throughout the match and I never really talk back besides the glhf or an lol. Usually pisses people off then they are like fuck you :lolAdent said:
4:22 minutes in. I'm by no means a great protoss player but I watch good protoss players a lot so, my thoughts:
- I'm against building the pylon at the ramp, I usually place it in the back or toward the side so it can power both buildings without being vulnerable to ledge sniping. Some people forgo the choke entirely and produce near the nexus but this is more an anti reaper rush strat.
- You actually outproduced him, the problem was you didn't have a typical toss choke. Your building placement strikes me as terran. You should have, at most, a one square gap between the buildings you build at your ramp. Against Zerg, I like to use diagonal chokes that stop zerg floods with a single zealot completely. Airlifting Immortals becomes a pain in that scenario though, so I tend to skip them for Colossi
- Supply capped and surplus, yeah, that was also a bottleneck
- You weren't using your chrono consistently. Two chronos will last one non-probe unit and a little bit more.
- Your gas was, in my opinion, too late. For me, there are 3 important checkpoints in any early game build:
1) You must throw down an extractor as soon as possible after your first gate, UNLESS you are going for a zealot rush.
2) You must have enough minerals for a Cyber as soon as your gate finishes
3) You must have enough gas for researching warp gates as soon as Cyber finishes.
After that it's pretty much laissez faire depending on what tech tree you want to go down. 3 can be skipped if you're not big on warp gates.
- Pylon whenever you have the minerals and when you're about 4 units away from cap. Once you advance to the late game, you'll want enough overhead to throw out stalkers/sentries as well as keep up production of Immortals/Colossi. A common mistake is underestimating how much supply even basic protoss units eat up, which becomes more of a problem when you're warping in zealots/stalkers 3 at a time.
- Not sure why you started moving that one zealot backwards, I guess it's because it was 3 zealots to your 2. But you had a stalker as backup so it was even. Don't let zealots touch your stalkers, they are paper despite their HP + Shields.
- I'm against building the pylon at the ramp, I usually place it in the back or toward the side so it can power both buildings without being vulnerable to ledge sniping. Some people forgo the choke entirely and produce near the nexus but this is more an anti reaper rush strat.
- You actually outproduced him, the problem was you didn't have a typical toss choke. Your building placement strikes me as terran. You should have, at most, a one square gap between the buildings you build at your ramp. Against Zerg, I like to use diagonal chokes that stop zerg floods with a single zealot completely. Airlifting Immortals becomes a pain in that scenario though, so I tend to skip them for Colossi
- Supply capped and surplus, yeah, that was also a bottleneck
- You weren't using your chrono consistently. Two chronos will last one non-probe unit and a little bit more.
- Your gas was, in my opinion, too late. For me, there are 3 important checkpoints in any early game build:
1) You must throw down an extractor as soon as possible after your first gate, UNLESS you are going for a zealot rush.
2) You must have enough minerals for a Cyber as soon as your gate finishes
3) You must have enough gas for researching warp gates as soon as Cyber finishes.
After that it's pretty much laissez faire depending on what tech tree you want to go down. 3 can be skipped if you're not big on warp gates.
- Pylon whenever you have the minerals and when you're about 4 units away from cap. Once you advance to the late game, you'll want enough overhead to throw out stalkers/sentries as well as keep up production of Immortals/Colossi. A common mistake is underestimating how much supply even basic protoss units eat up, which becomes more of a problem when you're warping in zealots/stalkers 3 at a time.
- Not sure why you started moving that one zealot backwards, I guess it's because it was 3 zealots to your 2. But you had a stalker as backup so it was even. Don't let zealots touch your stalkers, they are paper despite their HP + Shields.