ChronicleX
Banned
ZealousD said:
Lies. Just scout with your Supply Depo's and wall off with Medivacs.
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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)
- Thread starter Scrow
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Lies. Just scout with your Supply Depo's and wall off with Medivacs.
MisterAnderson
Member
I've got a strat that puts all of yours to shame. It's a 20 Hatchery build. Totally overwhelms the enemy with drones.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Those games in 2v2 where you know you got the game but instead you 3x expand and create a huge army...those games are fun :lol
Ice Monkey
Member
Corran Horn said:
amen
You have it all wrong guys!
The ultimatr strat is:
14 drones, then build a Starport.
Build some medivacs and drop off som Ultras, which you built by using spawn Ultras with the Turret.
Drop these beast in the opponents base, then mindcontroll using the medivacs abilty the scvs/probes to build your own base (since Zerg is way worse then Terran and Protoss) and then do a 10 rax 10 gate rush.
victory.
The ultimatr strat is:
14 drones, then build a Starport.
Build some medivacs and drop off som Ultras, which you built by using spawn Ultras with the Turret.
Drop these beast in the opponents base, then mindcontroll using the medivacs abilty the scvs/probes to build your own base (since Zerg is way worse then Terran and Protoss) and then do a 10 rax 10 gate rush.
victory.
ChronicleX
Banned
Pandaman said:
Scary thing is, I have seen a Terran do exactly that. He walled off his main and once the wall finished flew his orbital command to an island expansion, I only noticed once I sent a Observer in to scout :lol
If you catch a Zerg going 6 pool on Scrap Station, it is almost a free win. The rush distance is too far and you have plenty of time to get defenses up in time. The 6 pool cripples his economy and you can just roll him. Scrap Station is a great Zerg map, but 6 pool is foolish. Zerg has the easy scout advantage on Scrap Station, not sure why someone would try a 6 pool. Guess they are use to winning with 6 pool cheese and use it every map :lolrhfb said:
MisterAnderson
Member
Oh my god that was the closest game yet. I spawned as Terran and my opponent was Zerg on Metalopolis. I went for a Mech (Hellion/Thor) build with some Marines/Raven/Banshees. Started off with some Hellions and moved up to Thors for AA, which worked out well since he pretty much massed Mutas. He had Roaches early on but my Thors and Banshees took them out quickly and he never made Roaches again after that. In a straight up fight I was decimating his Mutas but whenever I'd move out to attack him he'd just come back and reign havoc at my base, making expanding difficult. Luckily I was able to nab a secret expo for a bit. Finally I said "fuck it" after he destroyed my expo and I went straight for his base (he was across the map so it took a while for me to get there) I built some Vikings for support which helped a lot as well.
Anyway, it was a base trade at this point and lucky for me Thors do massive damage to buildings. I was taking him down as fast as I could, all the while lifting off my buildings and spreading them around the map. Long story short he was hunting down my buildings with his Muta army and I was (slowly) hunting for his buildings with my Thors. He was building Extractors all over the map with Drones that escaped. He was en route to my last building stashed away, and I was on my way to an Extractor I scouted. My heart was pounding as I was blasting away at it because I knew if this wasn't his last building I was done for. The Score Screen appeared just as I downed it.
Anyway, it was a base trade at this point and lucky for me Thors do massive damage to buildings. I was taking him down as fast as I could, all the while lifting off my buildings and spreading them around the map. Long story short he was hunting down my buildings with his Muta army and I was (slowly) hunting for his buildings with my Thors. He was building Extractors all over the map with Drones that escaped. He was en route to my last building stashed away, and I was on my way to an Extractor I scouted. My heart was pounding as I was blasting away at it because I knew if this wasn't his last building I was done for. The Score Screen appeared just as I downed it.
MisterAnderson
Member
coamithra said:
I think they are fine, but at any rate you can't expect them to hold off an army single handed. They can deter harassment and skew a battle in your favor. And when utilized correctly can save your ass, like if you scout a 4 gate Zealot rush coming your way. Of course you always need units of your own around or you can expect them to get taken down fast. For example if you make a narrow choke with your Gateways by your ramp, and position a couple of Zealots with the "hold position" command filling up your choke. Your Zealots will hold off the rushers while your Cannons go to town. They do a lot of damage, they just go down pretty quick if they are focused.
Ice Monkey
Member
coamithra said:
what? why? (how, where, who) photon cannons and turrets are exactly the same, bunkers have salvage, spore/spine are almost entirely the same except for movability, if anything they are "a bit entirely alike" compared to SC1 being entirely different from warcraft 2 or something.
MisterAnderson
Member
Anyone want to play a 1v1 or 2v2? I want to leave my 1v1 ladder for the night on a high note with that last crazy game I had, lol.
close to the edge
Member
You shouldn't let him get that many Carriers.Y2Kev said:
I'm one to talk, yesterday when I played against a friend, ZvP (I'm usually a Protoss player) he rushed Dark Templars and merged them all to a huge Archon army :lol This only worked because I'm a terrible Zerg player and didn't scout or harass at all because I find Zerg macro super complicated.
Y2Kev said:
Carriers are super high up the tech tree, cost a fortune, and take forever to build. By going Carriers, he's neglecting his ground army, so just stomp all over him with Hydra/Roach before he gets more than 2 Carriers.
If he does somehow mass up Carriers, make Hydra/Corruptor and target fire the Carriers instead of the interceptors.
Carriers and Battleships can be very tough for Zerg to counter. It is best to not let the game go that far if possible. Next time against mass Carrier, use a ground force of Zerlings and Infestors with Corruptors to back them up. The Zerglings force the interceptors to focus on them and then you can send the Corruptors in to focus fire each one. Once that fight is going use a couple Infestors to steal a few Carriers. You may not keep them that long, but it buys your Corruptors some more time and takes the damage from your Corruptors for a few seconds. I kind of wish units had a little more hp across the board, so you can micro the fight longer.Y2Kev said:
Zertez said:
Starcraft is great specifically because units have such low HP relative to damage. Units die really fast so you have to respond quickly and make good decisions to win games.
From the spectator perspective, it speeds up battles to make things more exciting to watch.
Corran Horn said:
Haha, just had a game like that. We had the game in the bag and one player quit, but we backed off, and expanded like crazy.. I started to try to build a cannon wall from one side of the map to the other. Then we let our guard down, and he amassed a huge army, and we almost lost. Lesson learned...
build cannon wall faster, and not use only one probe to do it
The trick for an efficient use of the phoenix is to use them as a support unit , and to micro the hell out of them. Of course, you should always pair phoenixes with something that does proper damage to ground units such as void rays or colossus if you are planning to go to the offensive, but they can also be used to intercept huge air armies before they meet their destination if you scout them early and to harrass work lines with the gravity catapult.
In order for them to be effectively used against air units, you should micro them pretty well: if you keep going in and out of their range, void rays are useless against them since they cannot focus fire on you nor charge, and you can keep running in circles around mutalisks while shooting (you don't need to be a micro master in order to do that since they auto shot while moving).
Also, it is worthy to note the psycological effect that it creates on the human opponents. I have seen huge armies of broodlords or even battle cruisers fall back as soon as my first 3 or 4 phoenixes starts harrassing them, even if they clearly had the upper hand on me
So last night I got drunk at some friends' house and we decided to play some SC2. One of my buddies was having trouble connecting to battle.net so I decided (against my better judgement) to play a ranked match while I was waiting on him.
Turns out my opponent had also been throwing back some of the good stuff.
Pretty crazy match ensued.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qnjngwmm5mb
One of the things I noticed was that I actually managed to break my APM record this game. Got around to a consistent 75 APM, which is 25% faster than I usually am. My unit composition and lair transition went to shit, though. :lol
Turns out my opponent had also been throwing back some of the good stuff.
Pretty crazy match ensued.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qnjngwmm5mb
One of the things I noticed was that I actually managed to break my APM record this game. Got around to a consistent 75 APM, which is 25% faster than I usually am. My unit composition and lair transition went to shit, though. :lol
JasoNsider
Member
I love this game and have played it a LOT, but I gotta say - void rays are unbelievably strong and need some sort of change. When my friends and I spawn as Protoss (we usually play random), we go mass voids as fast as possible. We've found even when an opponent KNOWS we're going mass air and then pours every single dollar into anti-air they absolutely cannot stop a void army.
Turns out we're not the only ones who think so. Every time I play a match against Protoss now they are literally trying to race us to get voids.
They are so ridiculously powerful that it completely 100% leaves no reason to even build any carriers. Get one armor upgrade on them, maybe even speed, three StarGates, and keep a constant stream of them coming into battle and there is literally nothing the enemy can do. Mass marines? No prob! Just run around and rape their base while he tries to keep up. Mass Vikings? No prob, these things cut through them like a hot knife through butter.
I don't really care either way, as I play to win. In my opinion, the only thing that matters is seeing the victory screen. It's just kind of funny really, as it makes other units in that race completely irrelevant.
Our tag line right now is: "the only counter for voids...is to not let your enemy make voids"
Turns out we're not the only ones who think so. Every time I play a match against Protoss now they are literally trying to race us to get voids.
They are so ridiculously powerful that it completely 100% leaves no reason to even build any carriers. Get one armor upgrade on them, maybe even speed, three StarGates, and keep a constant stream of them coming into battle and there is literally nothing the enemy can do. Mass marines? No prob! Just run around and rape their base while he tries to keep up. Mass Vikings? No prob, these things cut through them like a hot knife through butter.
I don't really care either way, as I play to win. In my opinion, the only thing that matters is seeing the victory screen. It's just kind of funny really, as it makes other units in that race completely irrelevant.
Our tag line right now is: "the only counter for voids...is to not let your enemy make voids"
JasoNsider
Member
I know a lot of people are going to disagree with my sentiment, but in fact you've hit the point exactly. Again, the only counter to mass voids is to not allow your enemy to mass voids. Mass voids can tear through anything. We send them after turrets, marines, hydras, etc. Once we are able to get around 10 of them and constantly hotkeying re-enforcements the enemy is pretty much done.
My friend even won a 4 player FFA match with them and at one point all three of the enemies teamed against him. All he had were voids and some basic ground force to stop them from entering his base (he also kept expanding and keeping some defense)
My friend even won a 4 player FFA match with them and at one point all three of the enemies teamed against him. All he had were voids and some basic ground force to stop them from entering his base (he also kept expanding and keeping some defense)
JasoNsider said:
it is like a nydus canal. If you let it get into your base without interruption, you are going to get beaten. However, if you can start focusing down on them before they get fully charged then they are no problem, you should be able to take out 2 voids with 6 stalkers no problem as long as they aren't charged
I look at void rays like battlecruisers or carriers or brood lords... if you let your opponent sit back and mass them then of course you are going to lose. That really never happens though in the games I've seen. If someone hasn't seen your base through scouting or attacks for that long then they probably deserve to lose. Much more common though I've seen them as early harass to try to get a quick advantage much the same way terrans will rush banshees.
All that being said, most people don't fight void rays properly either. Stand-and-deliver fights are really only playing into their strength. I'm pretty confident that I could beat them easily at equal cost with zerg air provided I started the attack before they got to my main base (where buildings would allow them to stay powered up, as well as doing terrible, terrible damage).
Good unit, good unique design, requires different tactics to fight, seems balanced from my zerg perspective.
All that being said, most people don't fight void rays properly either. Stand-and-deliver fights are really only playing into their strength. I'm pretty confident that I could beat them easily at equal cost with zerg air provided I started the attack before they got to my main base (where buildings would allow them to stay powered up, as well as doing terrible, terrible damage).
Good unit, good unique design, requires different tactics to fight, seems balanced from my zerg perspective.
JasoNsider
Member
joelseph said:
Hmmm, maybe. I still think they'd win. We won a match where the enemy literally invested his entire expenditure in anti air (as terran) and we won so badly it was almost a joke. He had mass vikings and NOTHING but marines and medivacs. We sent in a couple voids to start just to get him on his toes. Then he panicked ("voids are coming!!") and made nothing but anti-air. We still completely decimated him even though he had a bigger economy. The marines CAN be a bit of a pain but we just lure them out (with speed) and then go around back and tear up his base.
We could all be wrong, and if it was just all my friends saying this I wouldn't make much of it...but it seems most people I even play online are catching on.
JasoNsider
Member
Cru Jones said:
Yeah, the problem is that you're looking at it as just 2 voids. I'm looking at it as 4 minimum and chrono boosting 3 more on the way every build cycle. If you cannot stop the first 4 voids you are going to be facing those plus constant re-enforcement.
Zerg is my main, and I still think voids are stupid powerful. The moment I'm against a protoss I race to hydra as fast as possible and then when I get the time I have spire + corruptors. Even THEN it's tricky.
Again, not surprised that GAF disagrees, but what I read here and what I see in the game seem to be opposing views.
OptimoPeach
Banned
Terran looking for platinum or high gold Protoss and Zerg players to do 1v1s with, practice new strategies on, etc. Post here or add me in game: OptimoPeach.ftw
JasoNsider
Member
ZealousD said:
What gives you that impression? Like I said, we even won with the void strat on 1v3 (in a 4 player FFA). The enemies pseudo teamed up once they knew we were going voids, even tried to get our base (and accidentally attacked each other at times
) so we just moved the voids back for a moment, decimated their incoming forces, then moved back out and proceeded to rip through bases in no time. 10+ voids in your base is pretty much game over.JasoNsider said:
From this post it sounds like you are talking about a 1v1 situation, and if that's the case I just grab an extra queen per hatch if I'm fearing early air (voids or banshees) at all. 2 queens with transfusion (or 4 with two bases if you go that route), will pretty much take care of any early air cheese and can also help defend if you are a little too aggressive with your fast expand.
I think where the confusion comes from is that you are saying a mass of void rays is overpowered. The problem is if you are losing to a mass of void rays, they aren't the reason for the defeat. The defeat came from not being aggressive enough (especially as zerg), which is almost always a death sentence in SC. By that reasoning then you'd have to say that all the bigger air units are overpowered as well.
JasoNsider
Member
ZealousD said:
I was talking about 1v1 scenario. I have a bad habit of saying "we" sometimes even though I really just mean my friends sitting with me at the computer :lol
JasoNsider
Member
Bisonian said:
No matter how you spin it, voids are better than the other big air units. And it almost completely comes down to the power they have at full charge, plus the fact that they don't lose their charge changing targets...hell they can even shoot while following a target, which to me is pretty nuts.
We did find an okay way of stopping them, and that's using hydras plus burrow. You pop up, focus fire, then burrow to stop them from charging. Problem with this is I would just bring my voids into your base so I have constant targets to heat up with.
VOIDS! :lol
Confused101
Member
I feel like such a scrub. I lost 3 of the 4 matches I played yesterday. I played so bad that I went from 1v1 gold rank 48 down to silver rank something. I didn't even look at the number because I was so disgusted with myself. 3 losses in a row. I had to stop because I was so disheartened. Looks like I need a lot of practice.
JasoNsider said:
No.
Maybe if you throw mass voids against other big air units in a battle, the voids will win. But the other big air units are more destructive than void rays. You even basically said that the key to fighting marines with void rays is to dodge them. You want to know how you beat marines with battlecruisers, carriers, or brood lords? Attack-move.
JasoNsider said:
I pretty much agree with you JasoNsider. Void Rays are stupid hard to stop in large numbers and usually when I scout a stargate it is too late to change strategy to counter.
Most people don't really scout anyway and if they do, they only scout once early and that's it which is kinda useless unless the opponent is going for cheese.
I find the best way to counter this is to invest more heavily on t1 t1.5 units and attack before they amass rays. Usually if you attempt to go mass rays, your ground army is pretty weak. The economy to support mass rays is also impossible unless you have an expansion.
I am usually P and haven't had many people rush void rays as I'm usually on the offensive. The worst you can probably do against P is to let them build.
i can echo the void sentiments. i'm only a copper league superstar and have played way too many rts' to think my opinion is worth a shit yet (though 45/42 isn't terrible considering i'd never really touched sc until last week), but my main issue with them isn't their base strength and associated costs (though you'll have to effectively massed stalkers+blink, something that even when scouted early is a big resource ask), it's the effort/micro investment required.
phoenix's can just about handle them for cost, but you'll have to constantly micro them into a hit and run pattern or they'll go down hard. same goes for stalkers with blink, you'll have to keep up a constant rolling blink pattern (not to mention a sentry throw a shield up), which i'm sure is second nature if you're korean, but to us mere humans is going to cost your macro game hard.
void rays on the other hand require the bare minimum of micro, they can essentially be queued, routed and left to do their thing and best 90% of other units. leaving that player do macro till their heart's content.
i'm just not sure what the harm would be in specializing void's to large targets and buildings, leaving them at the mercy of small ground-to-air and dedicated air-to-air units. all the notes seem to suggest this was their intended use. it's not like protoss are low on options for dealing with small units.
phoenix's can just about handle them for cost, but you'll have to constantly micro them into a hit and run pattern or they'll go down hard. same goes for stalkers with blink, you'll have to keep up a constant rolling blink pattern (not to mention a sentry throw a shield up), which i'm sure is second nature if you're korean, but to us mere humans is going to cost your macro game hard.
void rays on the other hand require the bare minimum of micro, they can essentially be queued, routed and left to do their thing and best 90% of other units. leaving that player do macro till their heart's content.
i'm just not sure what the harm would be in specializing void's to large targets and buildings, leaving them at the mercy of small ground-to-air and dedicated air-to-air units. all the notes seem to suggest this was their intended use. it's not like protoss are low on options for dealing with small units.