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[Bisonian]

No matter how you spin it, voids are better than the other big air units. And it almost completely comes down to the power they have at full charge, plus the fact that they don't lose their charge changing targets...hell they can even shoot while following a target, which to me is pretty nuts.

We did find an okay way of stopping them, and that's using hydras plus burrow. You pop up, focus fire, then burrow to stop them from charging. Problem with this is I would just bring my voids into your base so I have constant targets to heat up with.

VOIDS! :lol

Don't agree, but already addressed this in my first response so I guess we're going in circles. You need to hit and move with voids... whether that's dodging with marines or burrowing with hyrdas as you suggested, or simply hitting and moving as I originally said, or Zealous did afterwards.

Agree to disagree! Different people are going to have problems with different units/strategies, that's just how the game is. No problems with that.

 

[The Lamonster]

Void Rays don't require micro? I thought the best use of them is to focus fire...

 

[GregLombardi]

Hey everyone.

I've been floating around this thread for a while, and I just wanted to post my final impressions on the beta and elicit discussion of the game. But my thoughts were too big and I figured a new thread would be helpful to aggregate feedback vs. games. Find my Starcraft 2 Beta Appraisal here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395914

I hope it gives us a good starting point.

 

[The Lamonster]

Good idea, sir. I know there are Blizzard lurkers here on GAF so it'd be nice to give some direct feedback after 3 months of playtime with the beta.

 

[GregLombardi]

Good idea, sir. I know there are Blizzard lurkers here on GAF so it'd be nice to give some direct feedback after 3 months of playtime with the beta.

Yeah, one of those Blizzard lurkers gave me a key. I'll certainly be posting the thoughts on the Starcraft 2 beta forums when they are back up. But a lot of you GAFers have really impressed me with your critiques fo the game, and I fucking love Starcraft so much that it was time to put my effort where my mouth is...

 

[ZealousD]

I want the void ray complainers to try something. Test void rays using the SC2 unit tester.

http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/

Test mass void rays against a variety of different matchups with roughly equal resource cost. When matching up void rays against ground units, I checked for equal mineral cost. When matching up against air, I checked for equal gas cost. Remember that you can micro both sides with the tester, so move your marines or stalkers or whatever as needed.

I've already run this test several times, and here's what can kill void rays when each side is about at equal cost. All unupgraded. Microed as needed.

Protoss: Stalkers, Carriers. Stalkers needed to be microed so that they were all shooting. In Carrier matchup, void rays were focus fired microed on the carriers so that they would ignore interceptors. This one actually surprised me.

Zerg: Hydras, sorta Corruptors. Hydras needed to be microed so that they were all shooting. Void Rays beat Corruptors with attack-move, but Corruptors win if Corruption is microed.

Terran: Marines, Vikings. Marines only needed to be microed to get into range. Didn't even need stimpack. Equal cost vikings tore void rays into little pieces of scrap in nanoseconds.

 

[The Lamonster]

Yeah, one of those Blizzard lurkers gave me a key. I'll certainly be posting the thoughts on the Starcraft 2 beta forums when they are back up. But a lot of you GAFers have really impressed me with your critiques fo the game, and I fucking love Starcraft so much that it was time to put my effort where my mouth is...

Me too. I was/am SO grateful.

 

[prodystopian]

Occasionally, I run into an error (usually in the replay channel) and forget that this is just a Beta. Polish makes such a big difference.

On the actual game side, I just ran through a basic early build order for Protoss and checked my APM...:lol. I mostly played single player in SC1 and was just good enough to finish the game. I'm keeping up with the thread and learning a lot. This game is so deep.

 

[webrunner]

I want the void ray complainers to try something. Test void rays using the SC2 unit tester.

http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/

Test mass void rays against a variety of different matchups with roughly equal resource cost. When matching up void rays against ground units, I checked for equal mineral cost. When matching up against air, I checked for equal gas cost. Remember that you can micro both sides with the tester, so move your marines or stalkers or whatever as needed.

I've already run this test several times, and here's what can kill void rays when each side is about at equal cost. All unupgraded. Microed as needed.

Protoss: Stalkers, Carriers. Stalkers needed to be microed so that they were all shooting. In Carrier matchup, void rays were focus fired microed on the carriers so that they would ignore interceptors. This one actually surprised me.

Zerg: Hydras, sorta Corruptors. Hydras needed to be microed so that they were all shooting. Void Rays beat Corruptors with attack-move, but Corruptors win if Corruption is microed.

Terran: Marines, Vikings. Marines only needed to be microed to get into range. Didn't even need stimpack. Equal cost vikings tore void rays into little pieces of scrap in nanoseconds.

Here's a question: How do realistic mixed "proper" armies (MMM with mauraders and medivacs included, non-massed vikings with other units included, etc) do? Because void rays can win games by themselves, but if the counter units aren't game winning by themselves, then they're still a problem since it means building void rays will dictate your opponent's strategy into being anti-void ray instead of being focused on an actual victory strategy.

 

[ZealousD]

Here's a question: How do realistic mixed "proper" armies (MMM with mauraders and medivacs included, non-massed vikings with other units included, etc) do? Because void rays can win games by themselves, but if the counter units aren't game winning by themselves, then they're still a problem since it means building void rays will dictate your opponent's strategy into being anti-void ray instead of being focused on an actual victory strategy.

Note that when I say "beat", I'm referring to comfortable margins here. For example, I threw equal vikings at equal void rays and about 75% of the vikings lived. So even a half-strength viking force would be a pretty scary force to a full contingent of void rays. Those marines I threw against the void rays didn't even use stimpacks and had no combat shields. In real Starcraft, stims would be used.

And as a couple other posters have noted, your opponent shouldn't even be getting to the point where they can mass void rays. Mass void rays means no strong ground army. That mixed MM ball you have will tear them up before void rays can even begin to start popping out. Anybody should be able to scout and predict the void ray force before it gathers any strength at all. 3-4 void rays won't stop any mixed proper army.

 

[JasoNsider]

I want the void ray complainers to try something. Test void rays using the SC2 unit tester.

http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/

Test mass void rays against a variety of different matchups with roughly equal resource cost. When matching up void rays against ground units, I checked for equal mineral cost. When matching up against air, I checked for equal gas cost. Remember that you can micro both sides with the tester, so move your marines or stalkers or whatever as needed.

I've already run this test several times, and here's what can kill void rays when each side is about at equal cost. All unupgraded. Microed as needed.

Protoss: Stalkers, Carriers. Stalkers needed to be microed so that they were all shooting. In Carrier matchup, void rays were focus fired microed on the carriers so that they would ignore interceptors. This one actually surprised me.

Zerg: Hydras, sorta Corruptors. Hydras needed to be microed so that they were all shooting. Void Rays beat Corruptors with attack-move, but Corruptors win if Corruption is microed.

Terran: Marines, Vikings. Marines only needed to be microed to get into range. Didn't even need stimpack. Equal cost vikings tore void rays into little pieces of scrap in nanoseconds.

This is such a flawed approach to a test. You're assuming I'm running into a battle with voids completely cooled down. Sure there ARE times when I have no choice but to do so, but more often than not I place my voids at the periphery of an enemy's base so I'm fully charged and destroying his stuff by the time he even comes up to me for a counter. Fully charged voids vs "equal cost" units? Voids win. And again, as others have said, when the opponent is doing nothing but building counters and still not winning, what does that tell you? It's a counter because it's supposed to stop a push in its tracks.

Consider me unconvinced

 

[JasoNsider]

Void Rays don't require micro? I thought the best use of them is to focus fire...

Simple, shift-queue attack. That's the first thing I do. They just take care of themselves after that basically!

 

[Ashhong]

if you let 10+ voids into your base, i agree that it is pretty much GG, however you are doing it wrong. shouldn't really let them get to 10+ and you definitely shouldnt let them fly into your base unharmed. most of the time my stalker army will just destroy void ray armies with their blink ability. i love it

 

[The Lamonster]

Simple, shift-queue attack. That's the first thing I do. They just take care of themselves after that basically!

Ha, awesome. I keep forgetting to shift-queue attacks.

 

[Haly]

Zealous, could you spawn a rock, have the void rays charge up on that, and then try it out?

 

[JasoNsider]

if you let 10+ voids into your base, i agree that it is pretty much GG, however you are doing it wrong. shouldn't really let them get to 10+ and you definitely shouldnt let them fly into your base unharmed. most of the time my stalker army will just destroy void ray armies with their blink ability. i love it

Again, this is making some more assumptions here. First, unless you ALWAYS get blink, lots of people might just get blink only when they know voids are coming. Second, you assume that you can stop voids from getting to your base like you're following them or something. Most times it's easy to get voids to someone's base without being attacked in the field. It's an air unit! Last, you're kind of assuming a lot of stalkers here which means you knew the voids were coming...there ARE ways of stopping the enemy from even knowing there are 4 void rays (and re-enforcements) on the way.

 

[Haly]

Observer in their base -> Stargate? -> Hover over stargate -> follow voids being rallied to just outside your base-> send phoenixes -> /lol

 

[JasoNsider]

Yeah, that usually should work...if I let your observer in :lol I mean I try to place my stargates in sneaky spots so people don't even know it's coming. Terrans can sometimes scan me though, but really at that point they have to pray they are teching up and getting the economy going to fully counter them.

Scouting is everything of course. As a zerg, the moment I spot an enemy stargate I go hydras and then to corruptors...even then I gotta pray I'm fast enough.

 

[Cheeto]

In ZvP I pretty much always go fast hydras if I don't see chrono boosted gateways in the early scout

 

[Haly]

True, if I have an observer in your base you'd already be pumping out VRs.

Still there's only so much room you can sneak a stargate in, unless you do proxy stargate.

 

[watervengeance]

I'm surprised people don't do proxy Stargates. If you hide them well enough, the opponent wouldn't be able to scout it so easily.

 

[Bisonian]

Again, this is making some more assumptions here. First, unless you ALWAYS get blink, lots of people might just get blink only when they know voids are coming. Second, you assume that you can stop voids from getting to your base like you're following them or something. Most times it's easy to get voids to someone's base without being attacked in the field. It's an air unit! Last, you're kind of assuming a lot of stalkers here which means you knew the voids were coming...there ARE ways of stopping the enemy from even knowing there are 4 void rays (and re-enforcements) on the way.

Wait, are you insinuating that Protoss only mass stalkers to counter air? This must be the problem then, we are obviously playing different games.

The situation where a Protoss masses Void Rays in those numbers and gets them across the field and to an enemy base without them knowing is just as unrealistic a situation as Zealous' unit testing numbers.

 

[JasoNsider]

Wait, are you insinuating that Protoss only mass stalkers to counter air? This must be the problem then, we are obviously playing different games.

The situation where a Protoss masses Void Rays in those numbers and gets them across the field and to an enemy base without them knowing is just as unrealistic a situation as Zealous' unit testing numbers.

Wait, so what ARE protoss using to stop my voids? I need to know because I haven't seen it yet. Canons are actually pretty good! But if I can get fully charged I'll force-attack them or find a hole in the defenses and constantly ray them.

You've gotta be kidding about having problems finding voids to your base without knowing. I'm going to take a wild guess that around 75% of people don't have ALL peripheral spots outside their base scouted. If I move my voids around the perimeter of the map there's a great chance they won't be seen coming in.

This is a pretty funny conversation though :lol

 

[Deadly]

Wait, so what ARE protoss using to stop my voids? I need to know because I haven't seen it yet. Canons are actually pretty good! But if I can get fully charged I'll force-attack them or find a hole in the defenses and constantly ray them.

This. I hate playing against protoss because 75% of the time they're going to go VR and I have to try and mass VRs faster than him + make some stalkers. I know it's been said that Phoenixes are good but it requires alot of micro-ing and well I suck at that :lol . Are there really any options besides that?

 

[Haly]

Proxy 10 gate?

Hell, they were going to be cheap 75% of the time so there's no guilt for cheesing them back.

 

[JasoNsider]

Proxy 10 gate?

Hell, they were going to be cheap 75% of the time so there's no guilt for cheesing them back.

I can get behind this mentality 100% There is no shame in winning with any strategy. Play to win.

 

[joelseph]

It is a giddy feeling when you bring those first couple Voids into the back of some unsuspecting persons base to find no turrets near the mineral line and you start to charge on their gas building.

 

[Zzoram]

Again, this is making some more assumptions here. First, unless you ALWAYS get blink, lots of people might just get blink only when they know voids are coming. Second, you assume that you can stop voids from getting to your base like you're following them or something. Most times it's easy to get voids to someone's base without being attacked in the field. It's an air unit! Last, you're kind of assuming a lot of stalkers here which means you knew the voids were coming...there ARE ways of stopping the enemy from even knowing there are 4 void rays (and re-enforcements) on the way.

Those people are doing it wrong. Blink is insanely powerful for other reasons besides chasing down Void Rays.

 

[Zzoram]

I can get behind this mentality 100% There is no shame in winning with any strategy. Play to win.

Most of the all-in cheesy stuff doesn't work once you win a while and start to face people who can deal with it.

 

[Haly]

I can get behind this mentality 100% There is no shame in winning with any strategy. Play to win.

The main reason I don't like cheesing is because I don't learn much. There's only so many possible moves to make that early in the game that once you pull it off 2-3 times you pretty much have nowhere else to go.

 

[JasoNsider]

Just to be clear, I don't consider the void strat as "cheesing". To me, cheesing is a proxy pylon, big reaper harass, or 6/7-pool rush stuffs.

Big void rays are viable even with a decent ground force. It requires momentum and a number of other things we haven't even discussed. Just trying to say - these things are slightly too powerful. And this is coming from a guy who has defended almost every single balancing act that Blizzard has done. I even didn't make a huge deal out of the Roach supply patch, and I main Zerg!

 

[Bisonian]

Wait, so what ARE protoss using to stop my voids? I need to know because I haven't seen it yet. Canons are actually pretty good! But if I can get fully charged I'll force-attack them or find a hole in the defenses and constantly ray them.

You've gotta be kidding about having problems finding voids to your base without knowing. I'm going to take a wild guess that around 75% of people don't have ALL peripheral spots outside their base scouted. If I move my voids around the perimeter of the map there's a great chance they won't be seen coming in.

This is a pretty funny conversation though :lol

Here's your quote I was responding to:
"Last, you're kind of assuming a lot of stalkers here which means you knew the voids were coming"

I'm saying that if you think protoss only mass stalkers to counter void rays (and air) then you are wrong. That's all. The final point is irrelevant. I'm going to scout your base, and if I see stargates I'm going to expect you are up to no good and scout for where your air units are. When you sit in your base and turtle and don't attack, then yes I'm going to expect you are going for some tech gimmick and find out what it is. It's not rocket science.

So far through all your posts your point has gotten to: "If you let me mass void rays, and you don't scout, and I catch your observers, and you don't properly assert map control, and you don't rush and take out my base outright, and I sneak my units around the far outside of the map, and I make it to your base unimpeded.... then void rays are overpowered."

Sure, if you put it that way, I guess I agree completely.

 

[JasoNsider]

Those people are doing it wrong. Blink is insanely powerful for other reasons besides chasing down Void Rays.

Yes, sure, but what if you instead went for fast zealots or about 10 other things to put your resources in? Again, voids almost take care of themselves! They're a force so powerful it almost requires the enemy to completely shift is entire production into stopping it...there are lots of people who know what I'm talking about

 

[iamblades]

Yes, sure, but what if you instead went for fast zealots or about 10 other things to put your resources in? Again, voids almost take care of themselves! They're a force so powerful it almost requires the enemy to completely shift is entire production into stopping it...there are lots of people who know what I'm talking about

If you went fast zealots or an immortal push, or any number of other things, the guy rushing to voids should be dead before he can get them, so I don't know what kind of nonsense hypotheticals you are proposing here.

 

[JasoNsider]

If you went fast zealots or an immortal push, or any number of other things, the guy rushing to voids should be dead before he can get them, so I don't know what kind of nonsense hypotheticals you are proposing here.

Obviously I'm making a first tier force to stop such a thing...hopefully :lol It's just when I get my cybernetics core I usually drop a stargate as fast as possible, then a second, build 2 voids, then start with a minimum of two voids at a time.

I want to make another thing clear...this ESPECIALLY works in 2v2. I usually play with a friend who will do zerg. That keeps the enemy on the back-heel and typically gives me a chance to help a tiny bit at first all the while dropping my stargates.

I'm not going to argue this any longer as the GAF collective is on my ass about it :lol

 

[iamblades]

Yes, sure, but what if you instead went for fast zealots or about 10 other things to put your resources in? Again, voids almost take care of themselves! They're a force so powerful it almost requires the enemy to completely shift is entire production into stopping it...there are lots of people who know what I'm talking about

You don't have to shift your entire production to counter VRs, lol. I go heavy robo tech in pvp mostly, and have never had a problem stopping VRs. all you need a few extra stalkers. Its not that hard.

Lol that was supposed to be an edit to my previous post. oops.

 

[jasonng]

To hell with you, Battlenet.

I'm a copper player and you've placed me against a platinum player THEN a gold player. And guess what? I won both matches. So you've got me thinking I'm actually good. My e-peen never felt so big. Heading into my next match confidently, I lose. And to another copper player and thus lowering my self-esteem. Why do you toy with me like this!?

 

[Haly]

Just to be clear, I don't consider the void strat as "cheesing". To me, cheesing is a proxy pylon, big reaper harass, or 6/7-pool rush stuffs.

I was thinking of rush stargate to 2 VR push which is pretty cheese except almost a 100% win rate if they don't scout it.

 

[Zzoram]

To hell with you, Battlenet.

I'm a copper player and you've placed me against a platinum player THEN a gold player. And guess what? I won both matches. So you've got me thinking I'm actually good. My e-peen never felt so big. Heading into my next match confidently, I lose. And to another copper player and thus lowering my self-esteem. Why do you toy with me like this!?

People get placed in the wrong leagues all the time. Play ~50 games and you'll probably end up in the league you belong in. Then play 50 more and you might improve and get promoted.

The platinum who loses to a copper was clearly not supposed to be placed in platinum.

 

[jasonng]

People get placed in the wrong leagues all the time. Play ~50 games and you'll probably end up in the league you belong in. Then play 50 more and you might improve and get promoted.

The platinum who loses to a copper was clearly not supposed to be placed in platinum.

I checked the platinum's profile. He had over 60 career wins and over 100 achievement points. I don't think he was purposely losing. Watching the replay, his build order made sense up until a point. It was after that switch in his strategy that I was then able to overpower him.

 

[KiKaL]

My buddy and I got accused of cheese because of late rushing? I thought it was funny because this "rush" was about 15min into the game.

 

[Ashhong]

Again, this is making some more assumptions here. First, unless you ALWAYS get blink, lots of people might just get blink only when they know voids are coming. Second, you assume that you can stop voids from getting to your base like you're following them or something. Most times it's easy to get voids to someone's base without being attacked in the field. It's an air unit! Last, you're kind of assuming a lot of stalkers here which means you knew the voids were coming...there ARE ways of stopping the enemy from even knowing there are 4 void rays (and re-enforcements) on the way.

Speaking only for myself, my usual ground army is a big amount of Stalkers and ALWAYS with blink. After warpgate, blink is my most important upgrade and a necessity imo (as well as insanely fun). If you have a good amount of stalkers and blink, there shouldnt be a problem with getting them into your base quickly to defend against Void Rays (unless of course you have halfway across the map)

 

[Ferrio]

I rarely get blink, I'm always more concerned getting charge first.

 

[Ashhong]

I rarely get blink, I'm always more concerned getting charge first.

i rarely get zealots. i play 2v2 though, so i just straight tech to stalkers, start massing, then get blink. then i blink into their base from the side, as swift as air units!

 

[Ferrio]

i rarely get zealots. i play 2v2 though, so i just straight tech to stalkers, start massing, then get blink. then i blink into their base from the side, as swift as air units!

I usually only play 2v2's. I get zealots because as prot I always have way more minerals than gas, and summoning a swath of zealots is a nice way to burn through the excess. And since zealots are pretty much worthless without charge, I snag it.

 

[Corran Horn]

Damn having a hard time playing that multi task UMS game....Mah probes

 

[Ashhong]

I usually only play 2v2's. I get zealots because as prot I always have way more minerals than gas, and summoning a swath of zealots is a nice way to burn through the excess. And since zealots are pretty much worthless without charge, I snag it.

That is true. Although before I get zealots I usually spend my minerals on a few more gates, a forge, some pylons, expanding, etc. I do get charge eventually though

 

[Aesthet1c]

I finally won a game after a 7 loss streak. Man it's amazing how much I can hate this game and have my feelings completely change after a single win. Hopefully I can stay out of the funk I was in, because losing 7 times in a row sucks...

I remember hearing a terran player complaining about how hard it is to defend against mass muta's, so I tried that in my match, and it worked wonderfully .

Is there any other zerg strat's that you terran or protoss players hate? Because I could use all the help I can get lol...

 

[DaFish]

quick question, will the retail DVD come with both Mac and PC installers on one like other blizz games?

 

[Corran Horn]

quick question, will the retail DVD come with both Mac and PC installers on one like other blizz games?

ya both installs on disc