autobzooty
Member
Ice Monkey said:
agreed
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StarCraft 2 Beta |OT| (Beta Now Reopen, GL HF)
- Thread starter Scrow
- Start date
agreed
ZealousD said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4uoqlVL_c
Looks like support marines/scv's to mine/repair/distract.
Fragamemnon
Member
Ice Monkey said:
joke post right? Once that thing starts spitting out units, it's a good three or so per game second and unloads as fast as either the dropship or the warp prism.
again, basically a free doom drop with no penalty since your units basically are invulnerable as they go from point A to point B. That's my beef with the design-that you can be defending/contained with your force, but if the other player lets their guard down for just a very, very short time, you can move over an entire army without any fear of them getting killed in transit.
Note how this is different than the Terran drop mechanic (troops are in vulnerable dropships and die if intercepted) , or the Protoss warp prism, which only allows carried units+new warp-ins to be moved to the created location. It's the combination of overall volume of transfer+lack of penalty for a failed drop that makes it so completely obnoxious.
The issue will get even more pronounced once we get some real Korean-style macro maps with larger sizes. The implementation will seriously hamper the non-Zerg's ability to move out or making a timing attack due with their forces due to drop reprisals that cannot be cleaned up with just newly produced troops.
Fragamemnon
Member
ZealousD said:
Yeah, and I do this all the time. Honestly, though, that means you fouled up your drop and you should be losing way more than just the cost of a worm and an overlord for it-the other races certianly would.
edit: Requiring creep and making it a 3x3/4x4 building isn't a terrible idea either.
Ice Monkey
Member
i see what you're saying, I definitely exaggerated by saying it took insanely long.
The only thing is, what would make it more balanced? I definitely disagree it should be taken out of the game entirely, at that level of nerf then the mothership shouldbe taken out too. Or the effectiveness of m&m now built into dropships should be nerfed in some way.
Look at it this way, in SC1 you had nydus but it was nerfed by needing creep and build times. The arbiter was just a unit that cloaked and could do some stasis stuff plus it could recall. Then M&M needed dropships that did nothing but transport troops. These were all tactics that with color added for which race it belonged to involved surprise attacks against bases with ground troops.
So then it follows the way I see it that first they improve terran's surprise attack by they build medics into dropships, immensely improving the m&m mechanic, even adding marauders that also stim and provide armor counters. Anyways I know zerg has overlords still and toss has warp prisms that can double as a pylon but suffice it to say dropships are crazy improved with the heal. You can even build extra to drop in some thors, hellions or tanks if you want.
Then they improve zerg's surprise attack with nydus. It wouldn't make sense if zerg was restricted to overlord drops because their entire strength is in numbers and I think everyone can agree if you say the tradeoff would be that they could fit a billion units in one overlord or something there are a whole lot of tricks you can do with that like moving 100 overlords at a time with one filled with units or something. It wouldn't be balanced. and if it required creep it would be relatively useless especially with toss having both warp prisms and recall as mass movement tools.
Of course then we have protoss who used to just have recall. Well now it's a mothership instead of an arbiter and is much much more powerful, so you can see how they improved on protoss mass movement mechanic.
I still want to say that I understand why a lot of people don't like nydus and think it's OP, but it takes 10 seconds to build and you can destroy it in that time with about 2 or 3 marines! By that time, they may be able to respond by spawning it somewhere else but you at that point should also be much more aware of them trying that tactic so it comes down to skill at making sure you counter any worms.
I think if you can basically counter nydus worm attacks entirely by keeping a grand total of 5 marines in your base with stimpacks researched, having vision in your entire walled off base and being able to at least notice the worm within ten seconds how OP could it possibly be? Anywhere but a walled off base and its just a way to shorten how long it takes to move from point A to point B. And with having to exit every unit from the worm one after another it might even take longer to execute in those instances anyway.
Finally I'll mention that with as much as it may seem needing creep would be a nice nerf, with as quickly as overlords can drop creep it would be almost exactly the same with a tiny difference since you could possibly need to suicide the overlord. In fact that's probably precisely why they dont require creep, because it wouldnt affect it that much IMHO.
The only thing is, what would make it more balanced? I definitely disagree it should be taken out of the game entirely, at that level of nerf then the mothership shouldbe taken out too. Or the effectiveness of m&m now built into dropships should be nerfed in some way.
Look at it this way, in SC1 you had nydus but it was nerfed by needing creep and build times. The arbiter was just a unit that cloaked and could do some stasis stuff plus it could recall. Then M&M needed dropships that did nothing but transport troops. These were all tactics that with color added for which race it belonged to involved surprise attacks against bases with ground troops.
So then it follows the way I see it that first they improve terran's surprise attack by they build medics into dropships, immensely improving the m&m mechanic, even adding marauders that also stim and provide armor counters. Anyways I know zerg has overlords still and toss has warp prisms that can double as a pylon but suffice it to say dropships are crazy improved with the heal. You can even build extra to drop in some thors, hellions or tanks if you want.
Then they improve zerg's surprise attack with nydus. It wouldn't make sense if zerg was restricted to overlord drops because their entire strength is in numbers and I think everyone can agree if you say the tradeoff would be that they could fit a billion units in one overlord or something there are a whole lot of tricks you can do with that like moving 100 overlords at a time with one filled with units or something. It wouldn't be balanced. and if it required creep it would be relatively useless especially with toss having both warp prisms and recall as mass movement tools.
Of course then we have protoss who used to just have recall. Well now it's a mothership instead of an arbiter and is much much more powerful, so you can see how they improved on protoss mass movement mechanic.
I still want to say that I understand why a lot of people don't like nydus and think it's OP, but it takes 10 seconds to build and you can destroy it in that time with about 2 or 3 marines! By that time, they may be able to respond by spawning it somewhere else but you at that point should also be much more aware of them trying that tactic so it comes down to skill at making sure you counter any worms.
I think if you can basically counter nydus worm attacks entirely by keeping a grand total of 5 marines in your base with stimpacks researched, having vision in your entire walled off base and being able to at least notice the worm within ten seconds how OP could it possibly be? Anywhere but a walled off base and its just a way to shorten how long it takes to move from point A to point B. And with having to exit every unit from the worm one after another it might even take longer to execute in those instances anyway.
Finally I'll mention that with as much as it may seem needing creep would be a nice nerf, with as quickly as overlords can drop creep it would be almost exactly the same with a tiny difference since you could possibly need to suicide the overlord. In fact that's probably precisely why they dont require creep, because it wouldnt affect it that much IMHO.
Fragamemnon said:
Making it require creep would just make it a multiple exit nydus canal that requires extra management. Plus, in SC2 Zerg don't have to expand as much, so then it'd see even less use than it had it SC1.
Seems like increasing the build time would be better.
BlueScrote
Member
Trasher said:Just finished playing the Brood War campaign. Now I can't wait for the campaign and to find out more about the Hybrid and Samir Duran.again of course. Wanted to refresh myself on the story
I remember that one (secret?) mission with the hybrid and being like... wtf. I should probably refresh myself on BW as well. I remember most of the original campaign, but BW had some crazy twists iirc.
Fragamemnon
Member
Ice Monkey said:
If the worm building is, say, 3x3 or 4x4, they'd have to poop creep for a period of time before you could plant the worm, which I think is sort of the goal of the change, to give armies more warning. It's not that I mind the idea of the zerg doom drop-actually, that's how their transport needs to work because they move in huge numbers-it's just that there needs to be A) adequate time to scout the drop (just as their would be in BW by spotting the wave of ovies) and B) penalty if the drop is intercepted. Doom drops should not be without risk!
Nydus Worm drop attempt only risks one unit and comes up, if you react to it in a second and a half or two seconds, you need troops literally in the base that it comes up in. Please note I say "base" there and not "main", because the killer thing about the worm is that as you fan out on the map and expand the drop mechanic becomes more powerful since you have to disperse your units and the bases aren't protected by terrain nearly as well by design. On a BW-style 128x128 macro map, good fucking luck trying to prevent every base-demolishing Nydus drop once you are on three or four bases-it's not just not possible to have that kind of map control and sufficient response time even with aggressive M&M play.
Also, the worm actually comes up faster than 10s-that's the value for Normal speed-it's actually just seven on Fastest.
I don't have a problem with the worm on the current set of maps because TvZ rarely gets past two base play. But on something like a SC2 version of Fighting Spirit, Outsider SE, or basically any "real" Korean macro map, you'll never get past two bases against a Zerg that is smart enough to get a network+overlord speed.
Fragamemnon
Member
ZealousD said:
I'm OK with that too, but if they are going to keep that implementation in place I'd really wish they'd rework the sensor tower so that A) the opponent can't see the range and B) that it doesn't require a ridiculous amount of gas. Since that would be the way that you would counter a nydus on a large macro map (along with a few banshees).
Edit: Not sure how toss would deal with it.
Never ceases to amaze me how quickly some people quit in matches without even the courtesy "gg". Must be the anonymity of the internet or maybe people think they lose "less" or something if they quit as soon as things turn south.
I don't mind conceding if things are completely hopeless, but as our own TurtleSnatcher proved in his 2v2, you can pull amazing wins out your ass sometimes just by hanging in there.
Watching these live streams man, I don't know, is it just ego, trying to look cool, or "being competitive" when people talk trash in game, don't give the "gl hf gg", or just rage at the end?
Lighten up. It's not even the real deal yet - it's still beta fcol.
I don't mind conceding if things are completely hopeless, but as our own TurtleSnatcher proved in his 2v2, you can pull amazing wins out your ass sometimes just by hanging in there.
Watching these live streams man, I don't know, is it just ego, trying to look cool, or "being competitive" when people talk trash in game, don't give the "gl hf gg", or just rage at the end?
Lighten up. It's not even the real deal yet - it's still beta fcol.
why would you spoiler tag that and not the part that's actually a spoiler...Trasher said:Just finished playing the Brood War campaign. Now I can't wait for the campaign and to find out more about the Hybrid and Samir Duran.again of course. Wanted to refresh myself on the story
TyphoonStruggle
Member
Scrow said:
hah! something i wanted to ask too.
Ice Monkey
Member
hey frag I just got done testing out something, gonna post a video of it later tonight, I think it shows my point. I'll get back to ya later after I upload it.
Ice Monkey
Member
i don't really feel like uploading and processing the video now, but I actually tested the same exact build for as quick of a nydus rush as I think is possible, with 20 supply worth of drones and lings (about 16 lings) and basically with moving the overlord to generate creep enough to be able to build a nydus worm on creep, I destroyed the very easy cpu (i know it could be different with humans but this tested the same exact scenarios) in 5:20 whereas with just overlord sight for a nydus worm I defeated the cpu in 5:12.
This was on faster speed, but with normal speed I think (default replay speed is fast?) it was about 12 seconds difference from start to nydus to win, about 7:14 compared with 7:26. The cpu had built a barracks with tech lab, two marines, 1 more marine before the barracks was dead, a cc, a refinery and an engineering bay.
I think I both showed a possible early game strategy (with maybe 30-45 seconds more I might've had 6 or more extra lings, I hadn't even built a queen or a roach warren and had 450 minerals and maybe 200 gas at the 5:50 mark which was when I built the nydus on top of creep.
Now I'm no pro, but I just looked at one of my replays of guys who played a pretty long game who are pro, and at the 5:50 mark they have two barracks with tech labs and another building, 2 supply depots and a marauder or three on one side, and on the other is two gateways, a cyber core, twilight council and a few pylons with maybe two stalkers and a zealot or two. Could that hold up to 16 lings at 5:50 that dont need to walk across the map because of the first overlord that started scouting to the other side at the beginning of the map, especially if they aren't already moving the units around the map? I might be able to destroy their economy completely, the nexus too for toss and any tertiary buildings.
I'd say probably the best thing about this possible build is you end up at the end with a lair and 16 lings if they come knocking with some rush and you dont even need to do a nydus if they try to apply pressure. speedlings couldve been bought at any point in this type of build.
Anyone have any thoughts, especially as a possible rush tactic?
Regarding nydus, I'd at least say its safe to say nydus worm requiring creep wouldn't really affect it that much IMHO, at least time wise. They may as well just make it take 20 seconds to build since you could easily have the overlord preempt the build by generating creep, and it'd still be ten seconds.
This was on faster speed, but with normal speed I think (default replay speed is fast?) it was about 12 seconds difference from start to nydus to win, about 7:14 compared with 7:26. The cpu had built a barracks with tech lab, two marines, 1 more marine before the barracks was dead, a cc, a refinery and an engineering bay.
I think I both showed a possible early game strategy (with maybe 30-45 seconds more I might've had 6 or more extra lings, I hadn't even built a queen or a roach warren and had 450 minerals and maybe 200 gas at the 5:50 mark which was when I built the nydus on top of creep.
Now I'm no pro, but I just looked at one of my replays of guys who played a pretty long game who are pro, and at the 5:50 mark they have two barracks with tech labs and another building, 2 supply depots and a marauder or three on one side, and on the other is two gateways, a cyber core, twilight council and a few pylons with maybe two stalkers and a zealot or two. Could that hold up to 16 lings at 5:50 that dont need to walk across the map because of the first overlord that started scouting to the other side at the beginning of the map, especially if they aren't already moving the units around the map? I might be able to destroy their economy completely, the nexus too for toss and any tertiary buildings.
I'd say probably the best thing about this possible build is you end up at the end with a lair and 16 lings if they come knocking with some rush and you dont even need to do a nydus if they try to apply pressure. speedlings couldve been bought at any point in this type of build.
Anyone have any thoughts, especially as a possible rush tactic?
Regarding nydus, I'd at least say its safe to say nydus worm requiring creep wouldn't really affect it that much IMHO, at least time wise. They may as well just make it take 20 seconds to build since you could easily have the overlord preempt the build by generating creep, and it'd still be ten seconds.
can anyone suggest a site to get decent replays that have been played most recently?
and overlords being able to spew creep non-stop without any restrictions whatsoever seems unbalanced too. it needs to have a cooldown, energy requirement, or should be shifted to the overseer.
i was actually surprised that wasn't the case in the first place. seemed awfully unbalanced to me.Fragamemnon said:
and overlords being able to spew creep non-stop without any restrictions whatsoever seems unbalanced too. it needs to have a cooldown, energy requirement, or should be shifted to the overseer.
Terran voices:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/terran-funny-starcraft-ii/62513
I see live people... (shoots) I see dead people.
I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and im all outta of.. ah... forget it !
You have something on your face... (shoots) Got it.
And LOL at the Raven bases :lol :lol
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/terran-funny-starcraft-ii/62513
I see live people... (shoots) I see dead people.
I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and im all outta of.. ah... forget it !
You have something on your face... (shoots) Got it.
And LOL at the Raven bases :lol :lol
LocoMrPollock
Banned
Why can't I quit you Siege Tank? :lol
The Lamonster
Member
Agreed. Blizzard should do something to generate interest...having the beta is nice but I'd like to see a new post about how progress is going, or intentions for a new patch or something. I don't know...I think I just want this game to release :lolMilabrega said:
KuroNeeko said:
Eh, quitting early kinda makes sense. I mean, if you think that your odds of winning are less than, say, 10%, why spend ten more minutes playing a game that's doomed when you could instead quit and start a new one with a better chance of winning?
Really, when your limiting factor is "total time spent playing," it can change how you play the game to maximize your ranking withing those limits. So for instance, cheesy all-in builds become more appealing: if you have a comparable win rate in half the time, and if your win rate is greater than 50/50, playing a bunch of quick games will get you more ratings points than half as many drawn-out macro games.
Ri'Orius said:
This. If you end up having to play from behind, constantly using resources to play catch up. there is not point in wasting time and struggling for existance. I will admit though that a couple of times when I play I do GG out a little too early, but generally because I'm playing 2v2 random and most people who play that suck.
I hate it more when you say GG then people talk shit. That infuriates me. But QQ Moare.
infinityBCRT
Member
Maybe its a Canadian thing but I always thought it was cowardly to quit early. Always go full tilt till the end.Ri'Orius said:
And personally I love the drawn out games. I don't give a care about my ranking (mainly because it sucks :lol ).
infinityBCRT
Member
I should be getting a beta key/entrance into the beta within days (hookups ftwMilabrega said:
) so I wouldn't be surprised if that coincides with the third wave of the beta.infinityBCRT
Member
Thats different-- I'm talking about people who still have a fighting chance but give up anyway... and if you are in that situation it shouldn't take 10 minutes to finish you off.Zzoram said:
autobzooty
Member
Trasher said:Incoming wave tomorrow. Putting money on it. Scratch that. Putting a KEY on it.
WHAT. HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS.
tadcalabash
Neo Member
Trasher said:Incoming wave tomorrow. Putting money on it. Scratch that. Putting a KEY on it.
Don't toy with my emotions!
But seriously, I'd love to get in the Beta... if for nothing else than to see if I suck so much I shouldn't buy the game.