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[c0Zm1c]

i'm part of the late crew. only email i got was make sure my shipping address is right before october 20. D;

I got that, but the "Estimated Shipping Date" under "Shipping Status" on the shipment details page has disappeared too (that's a lot of ship!)

If they're asking that we make sure the address is correct by the 20th then I'm sure that must mean they'll be sending them out soon.

 

[LordCiego]

I just realized that we finally have a controller made for Katamari Damacy and we'll (probably) never get it. Just like we never got a Wii version. Unless an indie dev gets in there and makes one. Name it Ballfondlers.

The closest we have:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/15500/

 

[scitek]

I ordered mine back in June, and my status updated today:

Shipping Status: Shipment Prepared
Estimated Shipping Date: Oct 16, 2015

 

[grandwizard]

I'm sorry, that's grade A bullshit.

With a mouse, the location of your hand is mapped to a cursor location. With the Steam controller, the location of your thumb is mapped to a cursor location. You have a lot more range and relative accuracy (as in movement/range) in positioning and moving your hand than in positioning and moving your thumb.

These are physical facts.

Yeah. I'm excited for the Steam Controller but really you can't expect a 2 inch~ size trackpad meant for the thumb to have the same level of accuracy as an any size mouse surface that is meant to be used with the fingers, wrist, and arm muscles all in conjunction. It won't matter for 95% of people that never even bump up against pure accuracy requirements for competitive games but that's a simple mechanical difference between the two technologies.

With a mouse you could have it do a 360 degree turn every 20cm and still have enough room and speed to do a 180 at any moment if need be. Using that same sensitivity on the trackpad of the Steam Controller you would either be reswiping a ton just to turn around or relying on the software-level trackball inertia to get you there with one fast swipe and then waiting for it to catch up.

So now you raise the sensitivity on the trackpad to be more usable and not require much reswiping and you have a situation where small movements on the pad are registered and make your crosshair move. Even resting the thumb on the trackpad with a high enough sensitivity makes your crosshair jitter as it is constantly getting the input of the thumb kind of 'rolling' around (despite you holding it still) and moving your crosshair. This was evident in Krejlooc's streams where he and his buddy where having issues holding the sniper rifle perfectly still, because they were using a high enough sensitivity that simply holding the thumb on the pad was registering some movement and it was floating around.

The Steam Controller is a great solution for couch based emulation of m/kb but it won't surpass them in pure ability and range. There has to be sacrifices made for it's form factor.

 

[Jinkies]

I just realized that we finally have a controller made for Katamari Damacy and we'll (probably) never get it. Just like we never got a Wii version. Unless an indie dev gets in there and makes one. Name it Ballfondlers.

This can be realized by forking a PS2 emulator. You can absolutely add Steam Controller mechanics for specific games. Most emulators already have game-specific code for compatibility purposes, and PCSX2 is especially known for this.

I'm sorry, that's grade A bullshit.

With a mouse, the location of your hand is mapped to a cursor location. With the Steam controller, the location of your thumb is mapped to a cursor location. You have a lot more range and relative accuracy (as in movement/range) in positioning and moving your hand than in positioning and moving your thumb.

These are physical facts.

I think the best way of thinking of this is points of articulation. With a mouse you can use your thumb, fingers, wrist, elbow and even your shoulder to a certain extent, all on a large surface area for input. With a trackball, you have your thumb only, but you also have the quirks of flicking a trackball around.

I doubt that the trackball operated by just a thumb would be fully competitive with a mouse user, but I think it can probably get close if someone was willing to put in the effort at getting to grips with the mechanics of a trackball and could choose a suitable size / mass simulated - I doubt it would be easy, but possible

I don't necessarily disagree, but we shouldn't underestimate the power of muscle memory. After gamepads became popular for FPS, good players using them came to the fore. The same is true for other hyper-competitive genres like fighters, where arcade pads were once considered to have a monopoly on high-level play.

One can imagine that, if developers finely tune Steam Controller support in their titles, it could possibly be mechanically advantageous to have a smaller movement area. If this is possible, it will take time, of course.

 

[Krejlooc]

This was evident in Krejlooc's streams where he and his buddy where having issues holding the sniper rifle perfectly still, because they were using a high enough sensitivity that simply holding the thumb on the pad was registering some movement and it was floating around.

I didn't have this problem, my friend did. I got black out drunk and was no-scope headshotting from across the map.

My friend has this problem because he uses his entire thumb on the pad, holding it like it was a thumb stick. The steam controller, when detecting multiple points of input, takes the exact center of all these points as the sole "input." If you hold your thumb flat against the pad, it winds up appearing as a constantly morphing blob of input (because which parts of your thumb are making contact changes as you shift your thumb), which makes the point of contact jitter. I hold my thumb up high, with my palm resting on the hump of the controller, so my thumb comes down onto the touchpad at a tiny point, like a ballerina.

 

[Backlogger]

I hold my thumb up high, with my palm resting on the hump of the controller, so my thumb comes down onto the touchpad at a tiny point, like a ballerina.

lol

 

[Nibiru]

Just pre-ordered one through ebgames in Canada. Good lord I got an ssd, a 980ti and now this. I have a problem lol.

 

[Durante]

You have more range in moving your hand, but that doesn't come into play because we are limiting ourselves to a 2-dimensional plane.

It absolutely does come into play, for the simple accuracy = movement/range reasoning I provided previously.

Given that you have roughly the same absolute accuracy in positioning your hand and thumb, since the range for the former (when using a mouse) is, say, 30 cm, and the range for the latter is 3 cm, your relative positioning accuracy is an order of magnitude higher with the former.

It's simple really.

 

[CuckFupertino]

My ship date disappeared.

It only says "Shipping soon" now, whereas before it had an estimated ship date of 10/16/15.

This happening to you guys?

 

[stufte]

My ship date disappeared.

It only says "Shipping soon" now, whereas before it had an estimated ship date of 10/16/15.

This happening to you guys?

This happened to me a week ago and then i got the shipping email a day or two later

 

[Krejlooc]

It absolutely does come into play, for the simple accuracy = movement/range reasoning I provided previously.

Most people who play on desks and tables never take advantage of the mobility of their arm when they play. They are not making sweeping motions. The main difference in mobility between your thumb and the way you can position your hand are in regard to extremes and extents - that you can move your hand in any position across your body. People don't swipe across their entire desk to play FPS games. Most people fixate their arm on the desk and merely flick their wrist. You can do the same thing with your thumb.

Given that you have roughly the same absolute accuracy in positioning your hand and thumb, since the range for the former is, say, 30 cm, and the range for the latter is 3 cm, your relative positioning accuracy is an order of magnitude higher with the former.

It's simple really.

Except video games don't take advantage of this degree of accuracy. Small precise movements are a function of the resolution the game is running at, not the size of your mouse or trackpad. The differences between a mouse and a trackpad only exhibit over great distances.

 

[Jinkies]

It absolutely does come into play, for the simple accuracy = movement/range reasoning I provided previously.

Given that you have roughly the same absolute accuracy in positioning your hand and thumb, since the range for the former (when using a mouse) is, say, 30 cm, and the range for the latter is 3 cm, your relative positioning accuracy is an order of magnitude higher with the former.

It's simple really.

Is it not conceivable that one can mentally compensate for the decreased resolution? The precision of the touchpad may be more than good enough for those experienced with it and the game in question.

Not to mention that sensitivity settings exist and refined gradial cursor acceleration could further reduce the perceived gap.

 

[Boombox On]

I'm sorry, that's grade A bullshit.

With a mouse, the location of your hand is mapped to a cursor location. With the Steam controller, the location of your thumb is mapped to a cursor location. You have a lot more range and relative accuracy (as in movement/range) in positioning and moving your hand than in positioning and moving your thumb.

These are physical facts.

That's not functionality, that's ergonomics.

 

[zer0blivion]

Do we have any idea when Canadian orders from EB Games will go out? No email yet and it releases in like six days.

I ordered from ebgames.ca for in store pickup. I emailed EB Games support and they said:"If you pre-ordered before June 21, you will be able to pick up your order on October 16."

 

[Big Takeover]

Got my email, and tracking number. Ships today, estimated delivery is next Tuesday (13th). Excite!

 

[mattiewheels]

Confirmed for 10/13 in Florida, ordered on the first day.

 

[bede-x]

I've laid out in extreme detail why this is just as good as a mouse. It is.

I think it looks like a poor controller, but am not gonna judge it until I've used it extensively. That said the above has got to be pure hyperbole. There's only a month until the rest of us get it and I cannot wait to revisit this statement then.

 

[Krejlooc]

am not gonna judge it until I've used it extensively.

followed immediately by

That said the above has got to be pure hyperbole.

Without a hint of irony.

Considering your post is basically "I can't wait till I have it in my hands so I can tell you that you're wrong," it certainly sounds like you've already made up your mind, so you can save the comment.

 

[bede-x]

Without a hint of irony.

I'm definitely willing to eat my words if I'm wrong, but knowing how a mouse, trackball and trackpad works, I fail to see how I could be. We'll see in a month

Considering your post is basically "I can't wait till I have it in my hands so I can tell you that you're wrong," it certainly sounds like you've already made up your mind, so you can save the comment.

Nah, it's possible to believe you have an idea about how something works, without letting it influence your judgement when you finally try it.

 

[Frostav]

This thing is gonna have to be really good to best the Gamecube controller, the best controller ever made in my eyes.

It looks really cool but I already have a keyboard and mouse. I think this would be a good option for games like GTAV and Just Cause 3, where there is gun aiming but it's not the only part of the game; I currently play those games with a controller because I don't like third-person walking or driving with the keyboard. This controller would let me aim much more accurately while also being able to walk with the stick.

 

[Plumpman]

Confirmed for 10/13 in Florida, ordered on the first day.

Ordered June 6th. Just got email, being delivered on 10/13 as well.

 

[Durante]

Most people who play on desks and tables never take advantage of the mobility of their arm when they play. [...]

My argument wasn't about what people statistically do or don't do. I don't know that.

My argument was about the combination of speed and precision achievable in principle using these methods. And one is inherently superior in this metric to the other.

Is it not conceivable that one can mentally compensate for the decreased resolution? The precision of the touchpad may be more than good enough for those experienced with it and the game in question.

Not to mention that sensitivity settings exist and refined gradial cursor acceleration could further reduce the perceived gap.

Reducing the perceived gap by either mental or software compensation is probably possible. My point is merely that this gap in fundamental physical capability clearly exists.

 

[Krejlooc]

My argument wasn't about what people statistically do or don't do. I don't know that.

My argument was about the combination of speed and precision achievable in principle using these methods. And one is inherently superior in this metric to the other.

Yes, in principle, a degree of precision exists within your wrists that is not obtainable in your thumb.

IN PRACTICE this is negligible, because of the reasons which have been laid out in my replies. Software does not take advantage of degree of relative precision between a 3 cm space and the area of the touchhpad.

And all this stemmed from misplaced umbrage to my claim that mice and trackballs and touchpads are functionally identical - a statement that is still true.

 

[Durante]

Yes, in principle, a degree of precision exists within your wrists that is not obtainable in your thumb.

Good, we are getting somewhere.

Software does not take advantage of degree of relative precision between a 3 cm space and the area of the touchhpad.

If you are referring to your "resolution" reasoning, that makes no sense at all. In something like an FPS, the direction you look in (which is controlled by the mouse) is stored in a floating point number, which offers far more resolution than any input method will provide.

And all this stemmed from misplaced umbrage to my claim that mice and trackballs and touchpads are functionally identical - a statement that is still true.

It seems we have a disagreement on what "functionally identical" means. If I buy a CPU A that is claimed to be "functionally identical" to another CPU B, I don't just expect A and B to use the same instruction set. I also expect them to be equally fast.

 

[Krejlooc]

Good, we are getting somewhere.

Are you reading my posts? Because you just "got" where I was 3 posts prior:

You have more range in moving your hand

If you are referring to your "resolution" reasoning, that makes no sense at all. In something like an FPS, the direction you look in (which is controlled by the mouse) is stored in a floating point number, which offers far more resolution than any input method will provide.

Collision detection is not done with this degree of fidelity. If this was the case, wouldn't you expect, with millions of dollars on the line, for e-sports players to play with enormous surface areas to get this phantom advantage. The precision you are speaking about is superfluous. It doesn't manifest in any meaningful way.

It seems we have a disagreement on what "functionally identical" means. If I buy a CPU A that is claimed to be "functionally identical" to another CPU B, I don't just expect A and B to use the same instruction set. I also expect them to be equally fast.

A mouse and trackball and touchpad are all "equally fast." They have the same mechanics. You are comparing an external factor. As someone put it well prior, you are talking about

er·go·nom·ics
ˌərɡəˈnämiks/
noun
noun: ergonomics

the study of people's efficiency in their working environment.

not function.

 

[Nyoro SF]

ENGLISH FIGHT! ENGLISH FIGHT!

 

[Jinkies]

Gentlepeople, the only way to settle this is a 1v1 TF2 deathmatch.

…plz

 

[ashecitism]

No

Quake or UT duel

 

[Kamakazie!]

I might not have been following this discussion properly but the whole notion that a mouse is more accurate because it has a larger surface area to work with seems flawed.

Accuracy in games is defined by how well people make the small adjustments to their view with their fingers or wrist. Large swipes across the mousepad only serve for turning, and the touchpad could achieve a similar aim by increase relative movement as you move towards the edges of the pad for example.


Whilst I doubt I'll ever be as good on this pad as with a mouse, I can see it getting close. In some cases I can see some big advantages for me, such as using the modifiers to adjust sensitivity on the pad (to reduce sensitivity when you zoom in on a sniper rifle).

 

[bede-x]

Do any of you with contacts in the development community know how developers are reacting to the Steam controller? I mean, right now the Xbox controller has become ubiquitous in PC gaming and I like the trend that every game that supports controller uses it these days. Any chance that the Steam controller could change that? Will developers make three control schemes (Mouse/Keyboard, XInput, Steam controller native mode) or just settle for using the Steam controller to emulate the other options in legacy mode? Could the Steam controller become the standard down the line, sometimes making developers skip Xinput?

 

[CrAzY FiNgErS]

Gentlepeople, the only way to settle this is a 1v1 TF2 deathmatch.

…plz

No

Quake or UT duel

Let them choose the game, but broadcast it on Twitch or Youtube. Durante with keyboard and mouse vs Krejlooc with his Steam Controller. I would be there with popcorn.

My take on this new controller; however, doesn't depend on kb+m and how it compares to the Steam Controller. I already know this new controller is going to take time to get used to, but I am willing to take the time to do it.

I am not about to keep playing Steam in BPM on my HDTV the way I used to. I bought a lapdesk on Etsy and the thing is huge. I then put my wireless keyboard and mouse on it and the thing gets pretty sweaty and heavy in my lap.

I am not a competitive multiplayer type of gamer, but this controller makes me want to actually give it a go in games like TF2 and perhaps some other games. I can't wait to try out the GoldenEye mod with this and Titan Fall.

For many desktop gamers or hardcore competitive gamers, I can see them passing on this controller, but as a person who likes to game on my HDTV this controller will be more than enough to satisfy my needs.

 

[charpunk]

Mine will be here (Flordia) on Tuesday as well. Ordered as soon as they went up. So stoked!

 

[kagamin]

I would get this but I think it would be hard to play Umihara Kawase games without a dpad, and my ps3 controller works fine otherwise for games I don't use M+K for.

 

[homerhendrix]

My FedEx no. Says expected delivery 10/10 but only label has been created. Guessing it won't make it here by Saturday.

 

[dangerskew]

I don't have time to read through the whole thread, so I have a quick question for any of you who've had significant hands-on with the controller:

I grew up using a various Logitech thumb trackballs instead of a mouse. Gaming, even FPSs, is feels perfectly natural to me with a trackball. Will I love the Steam Controller or will it not be enough like a trackball to me? I'll be ordering one soon regardless, as the tech interests me.

 

[trialbygame]

I don't have time to read through the whole thread, so I have a quick question for any of you who've had significant hands-on with the controller:

I grew up using a various Logitech thumb trackballs instead of a mouse. Gaming, even FPSs, is feels perfectly natural to me with a trackball. Will I love the Steam Controller or will it not be enough like a trackball to me? I'll be ordering one soon regardless, as the tech interests me.

I've been playing with it for a while now. I can't say that I have much experience with the thumb trackball, but I suspect it will come fairly naturally to you.

 

[Balmung421]

My FedEx no. Says expected delivery 10/10 but only label has been created. Guessing it won't make it here by Saturday.

Noticed the same on mine; most likely we will see movement tonight/tomorrow.

 

[Durante]

Collision detection is not done with this degree of fidelity.

This has nothing at all to do with collision detection. Minimal differences in direction can add up to massive differences at range. Even the most basic bounding box collision detection would pick up on those.

A mouse and trackball and touchpad are all "equally fast."

No, they are not, as they are not equally accurate. Which you already conceded.

Let them choose the game, but broadcast it on Twitch or Youtube. Durante with keyboard and mouse vs Krejlooc with his Steam Controller. I would be there with popcorn.

I'm ready at any time. Q3A?

I mean, I suck at FPS, but I think I should still be able to do that with such an unfair advantage.

Edit:
Actually, we could make it more scientific. It should be easy to whip up a simple "game" designed to test aiming and pointing accuracy and speed in different scenarios which spits out a score.

 

[Iorv3th]

How are you guys getting tracking info already? Mine just says shipping soon, ordered on june 4th.

 

[Bl@de]

I'm ready at any time. Q3A?
.

Now we're talking. Q3A tier7 map. KB+M vs Steam Controller. Live on Twitch Pay-per-View. I'd really like to see that.

 

[c0Zm1c]

I'm ready at any time. Q3A?

This, I want to see.

 

[alexandros]

This, I want to see.

Yeah, this needs to happen.

 

[Nzyme32]

I'm ready at any time. Q3A?

I mean, I suck at FPS, but I think I should still be able to do that with such an unfair advantage.

I already know the outcome but this is something I'd want to see!

It was also discussed earlier that it might be fun to get a bunch of people together to play Q3A. It will be interesting to see how controller folk feel vs other controller folk and mouse & keyboard users, and how that compares to what they expected in a usual Q3A game.

 

[Dr Dogg]

Edit:
Actually, we could make it more scientific. It should be easy to whip up a simple "game" designed to test aiming and pointing accuracy and speed in different scenarios which spits out a score.

Yeah it's called House of the Dead Overkill Which is conveniently included in Typing of the Dead Overkill.

 

[Jinkies]

Let them choose the game, but broadcast it on Twitch or Youtube. Durante with keyboard and mouse vs Krejlooc with his Steam Controller. I would be there with popcorn.

Whoever wins... we win.

 

[Nzyme32]

Yeah it's called House of the Dead Overkill Which is conveniently included in Typing of the Dead Overkill.

I completely forgot about that. It could be an interesting little test!

 

[Nyoro SF]

Now we're talking. Q3A tier7 map. KB+M vs Steam Controller. Live on Twitch Pay-per-View. I'd really like to see that.

AND IN THE RED CORNER, THE AUSTRIAN REPAIR MAN, DURANTEEEEE

 

[Tenebrous]

Yeah it's called House of the Dead Overkill Which is conveniently included in Typing of the Dead Overkill.

What the fuck, it is?!?

 

[Jinkies]

Yeah it's called House of the Dead Overkill Which is conveniently included in Typing of the Dead Overkill.

Looks like it would be adequate:

https://youtu.be/YMbDiO3hz6o?t=7m

Might as well do this and Q3A, for completeness.