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[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Is anyone around to play this game?

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Is anyone around to play this game?

Yeah, I'm available.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Greninja's back air can KO after all, who knew

Monado's power, really feeling it, et cetera.

 

[Wyndstryker]

I finally got a Friday off, so I can go to my local scene this Friday. Sadly I'm busy Saturday so I can't go to another tourney thats happening locally also.

This time I'm pretty sure they're doing a 1v1 tourney.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Roll backwards up b, Bowser genius.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Last match, Snacks.

Edit: GGs.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Good game.

I don't know how to play Ryu other than combos and Focus Attack.

 

[Nabster92]

"My top tier character that can KO you while she is disabled is perfectly fine. You guys just don't understand."

"Controlling Luma - You can attack with Luma even when Rosalina can't move, but you won't be able to while grabbed or right after being launched."

"Rebound – When it's on the way back after Luma Shot, Luma can attack as normal. Use this to surprise fighters heading for Rosalina or as a diversion."

My point isn't really whether or not you like the design choice. I'm just saying I don't see that particular aspect of her changing with any amount of bitching. As soon as I saw Rosalina get frozen in that video and Luma didn't get hit and followed her, I knew this was gonna be another video about someone doing something stupid and entirely their fault because they didn't know the matchup just so people can cry more about it.

I'm kinda looking forward to the game after the next few patches/all DLC characters come out and Sakurai cuts off future balance patches. When things are not only more balanced in general (whether it's good or bad for Rosa), but more importantly people lose the crutch of hoping some mechanic that wouldn't have changed anyways will get patched in the next update, and actually put in effort to learn how they work and how to deal with it.

Edit:
Also,

 

[Karsticles]

"Controlling Luma - You can attack with Luma even when Rosalina can't move, but you won't be able to while grabbed or right after being launched."

"Rebound – When it's on the way back after Luma Shot, Luma can attack as normal. Use this to surprise fighters heading for Rosalina or as a diversion."

My point isn't really whether or not you like the design choice. I'm just saying I don't see that particular aspect of her changing with any amount of bitching. As soon as I saw Rosalina get frozen in that video and Luma didn't get hit and followed her, I knew this was gonna be another video about someone doing something stupid and entirely their fault because they didn't know the matchup just so people can cry more about it.

I'm kinda looking forward to the game after the next few patches/all DLC characters come out and Sakurai cuts off future balance patches. When things are not only more balanced in general (whether it's good or bad for Rosa), but more importantly people lose the crutch of hoping some mechanic that wouldn't have changed anyways will get patched in the next update, and actually put in effort to learn how they work and how to deal with it.

That's when most people, like me, just quit. Street Fighter V is right around the corner - I'm fine with saying goodbye to Smash until the next title if all of my characters stay garbage. The general game design is shitty, anyway.

I don't know why you quoted that stuff. We all know it's intended by design. But, like tripping, it's goddamn stupid.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Luma is Sakurai's fault and given everything else about this game that hasn't been changed you guys are better off begging for Ridley.

If it makes you feel better, I've been making the attempt to adapt to the Luma Rebound and changing strategies when fighting Rosa. :3

It's a hard matchup, but like with Sonic and Luigi I've been learning how to get around and deal with the shenanigans of that particular character.

Sheik tho...

And I guess to relate to the side of the others, the issue doesn't seem to be that we can't adapt to Luma stuff, but that the design behind it is, um, not liked by many people. I guess there isn't really anything to argue here anymore, is there? '~'

 

[Shamrock7r]

Haters gunna hate

I love smash 4's game design overall

 

[Karsticles]

Haters gunna hate

I'm pretty sure you've bitched about Rosalina more than every other person in this thread combined. I don't even have problems against Rosalina.

Why is the entirety of this website too obtuse to recognize the difference between being angry about something, and recognizing that something is a poor game mechanic?

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Speaking of, what's everyone's opinion on Mario? Around here Mario is something of a popular choice for many, to the point where it's joked that Chicago is composed of 50% Mario mains. Do you guys find any aspect of him annoying to deal with, even compared to his green brother?

 

[Shamrock7r]

I'm pretty sure you've bitched about Rosalina more than every other person in this thread combined. I don't even have problems against Rosalina.

I've done my fair share of bitching of the silly rosa/ness matchup. I am also the one that always says to players here, in general, to figure it the fuck out and stop blaming losses exclusively on matchup problems.

Edit: to clarify though, fuck luma

 

[Shamrock7r]

Why is the entirety of this website too obtuse to recognize the difference between being angry about something, and recognizing that something is a poor game mechanic?

 

[Karsticles]

Speaking of, what's everyone's opinion on Mario? Around here Mario is something of a popular choice for many, to the point where it's joked that Chicago is composed of 50% Mario mains. Do you guys find any aspect of him annoying to deal with, even compared to his green brother?

I find Luigi more frustrating just because he KOs Mewtwo off of 3 throws. I have to play so perfect against him throughout the entire match. Mario allows for more mistakes. It's kind of a Ness vs. Lucas situation, actually. I'll fight Lucas any day because I know I have strong neutral skills; but I can't play an entire match without getting hit a few times against strong opponents.

I've done my fair share of bitching of the silly rosa/ness matchup. I am also the one that always says to players here, in general, to figure it the fuck out and stop blaming losses exclusively on matchup problems.

Yeah, and it's really irritating, because you always say it like it's some secret wisdom people don't know. I don't think that post has been useful once in all the times you've made it.

Obtuse. Is it deliberate?

 

[SoldnerKei]

Speaking of, what's everyone's opinion on Mario? Around here Mario is something of a popular choice for many, to the point where it's joked that Chicago is composed of 50% Mario mains. Do you guys find any aspect of him annoying to deal with, even compared to his green brother?

one of Link worst match-ups and I dislike his games, he can die in a fire along with his brother.

Spoiler

partially kidding

Also one of my best buds main him, I can send you some replays for you to judge him, imo, he is pretty good with Mario but also a better player than me.

I really hope we get to the point that the game feels fair, as long as everybody is between Tier A and B, I guess that we could say the game is balanced, but this is smash, so I really doubt such balance can exist :v

 

[Shamrock7r]

Yeah, and it's really irritating, because you always say it like it's some secret wisdom people don't know. I don't think that post has been useful once in all the times you've made it.

Not useful to people with a it's not my fault mentality sure. Too many people are too quick to blame losses on lag, matchups, or other factors unrelated to reads, awareness, reflexes, knowledge of a stage, etc, Unless we all want to act like we've mastered every aspect of the game and it's merely the matchup holding us back

Go spend a month in solitary so you can think about what I said

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

one of Link worst match-ups and I dislike his games, he can die in a fire along with his brother.

Spoiler

partially kidding

Also one of my best buds main him, I can send you some replays for you to judge him, imo, he is pretty good with Mario but also a better player than me.

I really hope we get to the point that the game feels fair, as long as everybody is between Tier A and B, I guess that we could say the game is balanced, but this is smash, so I really doubt such balance can exist :v

I don't mind critiquing, but you'd be better off showing the Mario board on Smashboards as I'm not a very good advice-giver beyond "press buttons faster" and "remember more things so you know what to do in a situation." '~'

And Karst are you calling me an angle wider than 90 degrees D:

 

[Shamrock7r]

Nabster this can all go away if you become a Lucas main. He's a pretty well balanced character and an all around swell kid. Comes from one of the best games ever too! Win win win

 

[Thulius]

Not useful to people with a it's not my fault mentality sure. Too many people are too quick to blame losses on lag, matchups, or other factors unrelated to reads, awareness, reflexes, knowledge of a stage, etc, Unless we all want to act like we've mastered every aspect of the game and it's merely the matchup holding us back

I understand what you're getting at, but there is literally no excuse more legitimate than lag/latency. If you actually think it isn't solely to blame for a more-than-insignificant number of wins and losses for anyone who's ever played a video game online then uh

idk

 

[Shamrock7r]

I understand what you're getting at, but there is literally no excuse more legitimate than lag/latency. If you actually think it isn't solely to blame for a more-than-insignificant number of wins and losses for anyone who's ever played a video game online then uh

idk

Sure, but come on, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about legit lag grievances, which there are. Don't tell me you haven't played a good number of matches where the defeated opponent rationalizes their loss as a lag issue when you know that you outplayed them on several levels independent of any lag variable.

Hell I've done it a few times, and when I reflect, I feel bad because I understand that the guy just played better than me. There have also been times when I whined because the lag was legit the biggest factor, but the former is an often seen scenario in online gaming.

 

[Codeblue]

Now that's just complete bullshit.

Anywho the only real way to fight Rosalina is kill that dumb star thing and then kill Rosalina.

Luma spawns? Kill it again.

Tedious borefest.

And don't even challenge Rosa's aerial game. You'll probably lose.

Yeah, that's my problem with Rosaluma. You have to play for stray hits and go in for 13 second windows, and even then she has some great options. It's essentially playing for a time out. So boring.

 

[Thulius]

Sure, but come on, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about legit lag grievances, which there are. Don't tell me you haven't played a good number of matches where the defeated opponent rationalizes their loss as a lag issue when you know that you outplayed them on several levels independent of any lag variable.

Hell I've done it a few times, and when I reflect, I feel bad because I understand that the guy just played better than me. There have also been times when I whined because the lag was legit the biggest factor, but the former is an often seen scenario in online gaming.

I mean yeah, I've seen dumbos blame lag when they don't even know how to play games but I can't say it's even remotely common enough in this thread to be relevant to the point you're making.

I feel like you perceive a lot of people's complaints as blaming or excusing when that's totally not what they're doing. Sometimes you just gotta vent.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I mean yeah, I've seen dumbos blame lag when they don't even know how to play games but I can't say it's even remotely common enough in this thread to be relevant to the point you're making.

I feel like you perceive a lot of people's complaints as blaming or excusing when that's totally not what they're doing. Sometimes you just gotta vent.

It's a general critique of what I've seen from some smash players. I play on other sites too. I've specifically used the "there is a way, figure it out" language on here in the past when I perceive someone to be giving in to a situation that can still have control over. Honestly I can't believe that I am even getting push back for having this mentality.

 

[Nabster92]

That's when most people, like me, just quit. Street Fighter V is right around the corner - I'm fine with saying goodbye to Smash until the next title if all of my characters stay garbage. The general game design is shitty, anyway.

I don't know why you quoted that stuff. We all know it's intended by design. But, like tripping, it's goddamn stupid.

I also agree with Shamrock in actually liking the design overall for the most part outside of some things like rage, but even that I don't mind just dealing with. And tripping is an entirely different league of goddamn stupid over Luma. At least Luma is a fully controlled entity that isn't random at all.

Yeah, and it's really irritating, because you always say it like it's some secret wisdom people don't know. I don't think that post has been useful once in all the times you've made it.

Probably about as irritating as the lazy and even less useful "nerf Luma" "Rosalina's lame" comments are to me every time someone gets hit by the same exact thing Luma does every time like it's some secret bullshit everyone doesn't already know about.

Yeah, that's my problem with Rosaluma. You have to play for stray hits and go in for 13 second windows, and even then she has some great options. It's essentially playing for a time out. So boring.

The only time I've ever even gotten close to a time out in all 5661 + 1173 (3DS) of my Rosalina matches was against Sonic's, and that's not Rosalina's fault in the matchup. Also one time against a Sheik, but that was actually just a legit intense really close match that neither of us even realized was that close to time.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Since I started the record posting thing again I'm also gonna post a new tier list I just made up!

Please tear it apart and tell me how wrong I am about everything:

This time, I'm assuming no customs and Mii Fighters get saddled with their 1111/2222/3333 sets that TOs seem to default to lately. What do you guys think? I'd love to see some more discussion in this thread!

 

[Karsticles]

Not useful to people with a it's not my fault mentality sure. Too many people are too quick to blame losses on lag, matchups, or other factors unrelated to reads, awareness, reflexes, knowledge of a stage, etc, Unless we all want to act like we've mastered every aspect of the game and it's merely the matchup holding us back

Go spend a month in solitary so you can think about what I said

That's not the point, though.

My issue isn't "Mewtwo has this bad matchup." It's "Mewtwo is a shitty character". It's not "I can't beat Luma", but "Luma being able to act while Rosalina is disabled is not a good design decision". It's not "I can't beat Yoshi", it's "Holy fuck this guy can face roll all over the place and win, and I have to play two tiers above my opponent to break even".

It's this, and it's worth complaining about:

I don't mind critiquing, but you'd be better off showing the Mario board on Smashboards as I'm not a very good advice-giver beyond "press buttons faster" and "remember more things so you know what to do in a situation." '~'

And Karst are you calling me an angle wider than 90 degrees D:

I always tell my students that acute = "a cute" angle; nice, small, and adorable.

Obtuse sounds like a word for a fat person.

It's a general critique of what I've seen from some smash players. I play on other sites too. I've specifically used the "there is a way, figure it out" language on here in the past when I perceive someone to be giving in to a situation that can still have control over. Honestly I can't believe that I am even getting push back for having this mentality.

You're not getting pushback on that. It's just that you always bring this up, even when it isn't appropriate.

Someone posts a video of Rosalina KOing while disabled, and the discussion ensues about whether that's a good game mechanic. Then Nabster and you try and make it about how people should work to get around it. It's an irritating subject change. Sometimes people just want to discuss game mechanics - it's not always about winning the match.

Probably about as irritating as the lazy and even less useful "nerf Luma" "Rosalina's lame" comments are to me every time someone gets hit by the same exact thing Luma does every time like it's some secret bullshit everyone doesn't already know about.

Stupid stays stupid; why wouldn't people talk about it?

There's nothing lazy about discussing design decisions.

Also, you can't always avoid Luma. Sometimes Luma can hit you AFTER you hit Rosalina because Rosalina recovers slightly before you do and jabs. That's pure bullshit. No character should ever get rewarded for being hit. Ever.

 

[Thulius]

It's a general critique of what I've seen from some smash players. I play on other sites too. I've specifically used the "there is a way, figure it out" language on here in the past when I perceive someone to be giving in to a situation that can still have control over. Honestly I can't believe that I am even getting push back for having this mentality.

I don't disagree with the mentality, I disagree with you jumping on people for complaining about Luma as if its mechanics don't nullify a majority of neutral options and offensive setups from a large portion of the cast.

I think Greninja can deal with any character in the game. I don't think he has a matchup worse than 5.5:4.5, so outside of blatantly dumb stuff like fast/safe aerials that kill I try not to complain too much, but when people play worse characters it's not hard to see why they do.

Obviously it's unreasonable to expect every single character in a cast this large to be competitive, but in the case of smash especially, most bad matchups boil down to "advantaged character completely controls the pace of the fight and disadvantaged character is forced to wait and react." Almost exclusively, this is what makes a matchup bad in this game. Compounded with the fact that online play makes the "wait and react" portion of the equation significantly harder, there are a whole lot of matchups that are incredibly tedious for one player and telling them to "deal with it" isn't helpful in any way.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Someone posts a video of Rosalina KOing while disabled, and the discussion ensues about whether that's a good game mechanic. Then Nabster and you try and make it about how people should work to get around it. It's an irritating subject change. Sometimes people just want to discuss game mechanics - it's not always about winning the match.

I jokingly replied "haters gunna hate" and you proceeded to call me out. You did this!

 

[Karsticles]

I jokingly replied "haters gunna hate" and you proceeded to call me out. You did this!

I hate that phrase. -_-

Back to watching Once More With Feeling.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I don't disagree with the mentality, I disagree with you jumping on people for complaining about Luma as if its mechanics don't nullify a majority of neutral options and offensive setups from a large portion of the cast.

I think Greninja can deal with any character in the game. I don't think he has a matchup worse than 5.5:4.5, so outside of blatantly dumb stuff like fast/safe aerials that kill I try not to complain too much, but when people play worse characters it's not hard to see why they do.

Obviously it's unreasonable to expect every single character in a cast this large to be competitive, but in the case of smash especially, most bad matchups boil down to "advantaged character completely controls the pace of the fight and disadvantaged character is forced to wait and react." Almost exclusively, this is what makes a matchup bad in this game. Compounded with the fact that online play makes the "wait and react" portion of the equation significantly harder, there are a whole lot of matchups that are incredibly tedious for one player and telling them to "deal with it" isn't helpful in any way.

I was replying to karst, not calling out the luma debaters, go back and read who and what I replied to.
You act like that's the only advice I give, which is a complete bullshit thing to imply if you would like to take the time to read through my post history. The times I have even said "figure out a way" can probably be counted on one hand (when I felt it was the answer someone needed to hear), vs the many many times I have given direct, in depth advice to players I've faced about our matches. Hell, I go in depth with my "find a way" advice, pointing out it doesn't apply to all matchups!
So if you think my advice all the time is "deal with it", go read past threads and then come back and I will accept your apology.

 

[FSLink]

Since I started the record posting thing again I'm also gonna post a new tier list I just made up!

Please tear it apart and tell me how wrong I am about everything:



This time, I'm assuming no customs and Mii Fighters get saddled with their 1111/2222/3333 sets that TOs seem to default to lately. What do you guys think? I'd love to see some more discussion in this thread!

Pretty solid for a tier list though I do think Lucas is a bit too high, and you're really underrating Charizard and Ike. Dr. Mario is a bit too high too. I also disagree with Roy being so high up there in comparison to the rest of the FE cast, I think people really overrate him in general, he's great but I do feel he's overhyped because people aren't used to him (nobody should be running into fsmashes after Flare Blades for example).

The 1111/2222/3333 Miis are complete bullshit and I agree with your placements with them on your tier list if following that instead of any size any moveset Miis. They effectively become almost soft-banned since there's no reason to use them with such weak movesets, despite the game allowing everything for Miis in Customs OFF. It's such a half assed compromise, just ban them all together or allow them to do what the game allows.

 

[Thulius]

I was replying to karst, not calling out the luma debaters, go back and read who and what I replied to.
You act like that's the only advice I give, which is a complete bullshit thing to imply if you would like to take the time to read through my post history. The times I have even said "figure out a way" can probably be counted on one hand (when I felt it was the answer someone needed to hear), vs the many many times I have given direct, in depth advice to players I've faced about our matches. Hell, I go in depth with my "find a way" advice, pointing out it doesn't apply to all matchups!
So if you think my advice all the time is "deal with it", go read past threads and then come back and I will accept your apology.

I mean...

... I am also the one that always says to players here, in general, to figure it the fuck out and stop blaming losses exclusively on matchup problems.

Not exactly mincing words here I won't speak to what advice you have or haven't given to other people in the past because that doesn't pertain to me or the conversation at hand and it's not what I'm talking about. Just pointing out how and why your tone could be seen as condescending in this case.

As far as that tier list, I feel like there's a whole tier missing between A and B+... and then I started thinking about it too much and now I'm just gonna make my own. Give me a minute.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Pretty solid for a tier list though I do think Lucas is a bit too high, and you're really underrating Charizard and Ike. Dr. Mario is a bit too high too. I also disagree with Roy being so high up there in comparison to the rest of the FE cast, I think people really overrate him in general, he's great but I do feel he's overhyped because people aren't used to him (nobody should be running into fsmashes after Flare Blades for example).

The 1111/2222/3333 Miis are complete bullshit and I agree with your placements with them on your tier list if following that instead of any size any moveset Miis. They effectively become almost soft-banned since there's no reason to use them with such weak movesets, despite the game allowing everything for Miis in Customs OFF. It's such a half assed compromise, just ban them all together or allow them to do what the game allows.

Heh, I'm no expert on Charizard but I can say that Ike struggles massively against certain high tiers (not even just Sheik, Yoshi makes his life hell and Luigi racks up damage like nobody's business. I'm not gonna talk about the meat shield that is Luma. ;__ His recovery is also hurt by the fact that Aether is open to counters and long-distance pokes like Falco's reflector, and his slow movement means he's often forced to play at his opponent's pace despite having a variety of tide-turning attacks.

I personally think Dr. Mario is at least right below Mario just because he has solid frame data, great kill potential and punishes, a decent projectile that can't be absorbed and a good combo game. His recovery and lack of landing options hurts him though, so I put him right below Mario rather than with him. Despite his flaws, I've been able to keep up with Shamrock and Nabster with their mains (though whether or not they sandbag against me out of pity I'll never know), so it's gotta mean something that he can at least fight some high tiers.

I put Roy up there because I thought he's got good stuff but I wasn't sure how good his stuff is if you get me. He's kinda up in the air along with Ryu.

The worst part is that there's a limit of 7 tiers with this thing, so I had to stuff a bunch of people in the middle without reason. So the order within the tiers doesn't matter, otherwise my life would become hell.

 

[Karsticles]

LOL Shamrock. You can't say you hardly say something and that you say it all the time, friend. ;-)

I know what you mean, though.

Disappointed no one else chimed in about how good Once More With Feeling is, though.

 

[Shamrock7r]

LOL Shamrock. You can't say you hardly say something and that you say it all the time, friend. ;-)

I know what you mean, though.

Disappointed no one else chimed in about how good Once More With Feeling is, though.

I honestly haven't. I think there have been 2 or 3 times I've said it to someone taking issue with their character. Granted those times it turned into a long debate so I can understand it seeming like I've said it more often.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Disappointed no one else chimed in about how good Once More With Feeling is, though.

Either you're referring to some old ass movie from the 60s or some random episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

In either case, I don't get it.

 

[FSLink]

I personally think Dr. Mario is at least right below Mario just because he has solid frame data, great kill potential and punishes, a decent projectile that can't be absorbed and a good combo game. His recovery and lack of landing options hurts him though, so I put him right below Mario rather than with him. Despite his flaws, I've been able to keep up with Shamrock and Nabster with their mains (though whether or not they sandbag against me out of pity I'll never know), so it's gotta mean something that he can at least fight some high tiers.

It's one of those things where I feel Dr. Mario is in the lower half of the cast, but most of the cast is "viable". I just don't see Dr. Mario winning any major tournaments without a secondary, and that's usually my criteria for the top half of this game really.

I think with the buffs Marth or Ike is probably best Fire Emblem character at the moment. Roy/Lucas/Ryu are really up in the air at the moment though I think everyone can mostly agree that Ryu is great, Lucas is great outside of his crappy grab (would likely be high tier otherwise).

The worst part is that there's a limit of 7 tiers with this thing, so I had to stuff a bunch of people in the middle without reason. So the order within the tiers doesn't matter, otherwise my life would become hell.

Yeah, the mid tier in this game is pretty close together. I think people generally agree with the top 15 or so, and the bottom 5, but everyone else is just really close together.

 

[Karsticles]

Either you're referring to some old ass movie from the 60s or some random episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

In either case, I don't get it.

Buffy.

Possibly the greatest episode of a show in TV history.

 

[Nabster92]

Someone posts a video of Rosalina KOing while disabled, and the discussion ensues about whether that's a good game mechanic. Then Nabster and you try and make it about how people should work to get around it. It's an irritating subject change. Sometimes people just want to discuss game mechanics - it's not always about winning the match.


Stupid stays stupid; why wouldn't people talk about it?

There's nothing lazy about discussing design decisions.

Also, you can't always avoid Luma. Sometimes Luma can hit you AFTER you hit Rosalina because Rosalina recovers slightly before you do and jabs. That's pure bullshit. No character should ever get rewarded for being hit. Ever.

I don't find "nerf Luma" "Rosalina's lame" to be a riveting discussion on design decisions that I derailed. If anything I derailed comments of completely unconstructive anger and hate into actual discussion on why people hate it. I don't have a problem with you saying things you think Luma shouldn't be able to do, and I never made any argument about Luma being avoidable in all situations.

I watched that video, and the first thing that came to my mind was that Lucas was super free in that particular situation because he literally just jumped and hovered right in front of a kill move.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't find "nerf Luma" "Rosalina's lame" to be a riveting discussion on design decisions that I derailed. If anything I derailed comments of completely unconstructive anger and hate into actual discussion on why people hate it. I don't have a problem with you saying things you think Luma shouldn't be able to do, and I never made any argument about Luma being avoidable in all situations.

I watched that video, and the first thing that came to my mind was that Lucas was super free in that particular situation because he literally just jumped and hovered right in front of a kill move.

I'm sure you don't find discussions about your poorly balanced character to be riveting in general.

 

[Shamrock7r]

My Lucas would Have gone for it all. Pk2 or bust baby

 

[Nabster92]

I'm sure you don't find discussions about your poorly balanced character to be riveting in general.

Especially not when they just turn into personal accusations for playing the character to begin with.

Again, I'm fine with discussion on mechanics regardless of whether it's for or against a character I play. I expect something at least moderately better than Twitch stream comments from GAF though.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

One of the few things I agree with on that tier list is Yoshi not being high tier.

 

[Karsticles]

Since I started the record posting thing again I'm also gonna post a new tier list I just made up!

Please tear it apart and tell me how wrong I am about everything:



This time, I'm assuming no customs and Mii Fighters get saddled with their 1111/2222/3333 sets that TOs seem to default to lately. What do you guys think? I'd love to see some more discussion in this thread!

I didn't even notice this tier list, lol.

Complaints:
1) How the hell is Ganondorf so high?
2) Roy and Ryu shouldn't be that high until they have results behind them.
3) Why is Greninja so low?
4) I honestly don't understand why Pit and Dark Pit are always put so high.
5) Bowser is too low; he's somewhere in the B's.
6) wtfYoshi
7) Mewtwo is properly placed.

Especially not when they just turn into personal accusations for playing the character to begin with.

Again, I'm fine with discussion on mechanics regardless of whether it's for or against a character I play. I expect something at least moderately better than Twitch stream comments from GAF though.

Sometimes people just throw a quick quip out there. No need to get pissy about it.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Here's my tier list, I worked very hard on it.

Spoiler

Now I regret not making that F-.

 

[Thulius]

Since I started the record posting thing again I'm also gonna post a new tier list I just made up!

Please tear it apart and tell me how wrong I am about everything:



This time, I'm assuming no customs and Mii Fighters get saddled with their 1111/2222/3333 sets that TOs seem to default to lately. What do you guys think? I'd love to see some more discussion in this thread!

Alright, here we go. Order within tiers doesn't matter.

Also assuming no customs and default miis. B+ and higher is basically no major flaws or ridiculously awful matchups. C-B are solid characters that lose too hard to top tiers to be any higher, and E-D are characters I would say have more bad matchups than even or good.

Luigi bodies braindead rushdown which means he'll always be good against Sheik which means he'll never be a bad character, but I think he's been overrated for a while. He wins neutral in a lot of matchups with nothing but fireball and defensive Nairs, but when he can't rely on those he has no punish game and no real strong approaches. If his fireball gets nerfed any more than it already did I could see him dropping to B+ or even B easily.

Mario needs to try a little harder to win the neutral but air fireball covers such a perfect angle against so many characters that it's shocking he's not rated more highly in general. His neutral is just as safe as Luigi's, proper friction means he gets actual punishes without power shield, he only gets slightly less than Luigi off low % grabs, fludd completely destroys certain recoveries, his own offstage game is strong... Everyone knows he's really good but I still think he's underrated.

Not as underrated as Meta Knight though. Dude got the exact right holes filled in 1.08 and people are still sleeping on him. Major buffs to jab, Ftilt and Nair means he has a ground game outside of hoping people run into random Fsmashes and all of those moves contribute perfectly to getting people offstage, where he already excelled. Everyone knew about his dumb combo potential really early after 3ds release, but for some reason people gave up on him when they found out all his gigantic disjointed normals weren't quite as gigantic as the visuals implied.

Probably a few other placements I didn't cover that could be seen as questionable but I'm tired and I'm going to bed.

 

[Karsticles]

Here's my tier list, I worked very hard on it.

Spoiler

Fixed:

Spoiler

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I remember when people thought Shulk had potential. And then nobody played him.

Meta Knight is really showing himself to be a pretty strong option, especially as a counter-pick. Combos are ridiculous, can be pretty safe, tornado is good ledge coverage and big damage.