Shmunter
Member
It could actually work in a surprising way. Where the barriers of access to the assets becomes simpler, less workarounds, no need for complex streaming solutions. The path of least resistance leading to immediate adoption.
The PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series X Will Both Be Partially Outclassed by the Time That They're Released And Fully Outclassed One Year Later
- Thread starter BluRayHiDef
- Start date
martino
Member
there is a team /tools reality behind that. and we were not speaking of any ssd advantages but the ones requiring ps5 speed as mandatory.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Every company has PC versions of their games. Not only does the development happen on the PC but a full blown game can run (exclusive or not) on their PC dev boxes. You'll see more PS exclusives coming to PC next-gen. HZD, Death Stranding, Detroit, etc.. are just a few of them.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
PC has a RAM advantage. You could easily create a virtual cache system out of CPU RAM just as the PS5/XSX has a virtual RAM cache from the SSD. The GPU is the stop gap. You can't feed it more data than it can process. The SSD needs to get to VRAM where the GPU will process it's data. The GPU doesn't fetch directly from an SSD. That would be way too slow.
Of course, you'll find the console zealots refuting these no-brainer facts and I'll be labeled as not knowing what I'm talking about.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Unless those same games are also on the PC. This argument is always brought up but no one ever thinks about the exclusives coming to PC (which they will over time). So whatever "magic" you think an exclusive has won't be unique to just that one platform this next-gen. I suspect the PC vs. PS argument will eventually die this generation just like it did with Xbox.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Not universally true. It depends on the engine in use and whether anything on the target platform(s) requires bespoke support.
The plain reality is that QA gets done on the platform targetted for publication, and that part of the dev cycle is the most labor-intensive part. So yeah, while its nice to prototype/tune/playtest internally on a target-box build, it can only get you so far.
alabtrosMyster
Member
What you probably meat is that God of War III is better on the PS4 at 1080p with locked frame rate than its PS3 counterpart.
This is one of those games that has both a great art style and is a technical showcase of its time.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Oh yea, of course the QA gets done on the platform targeted. But for the most part, it can run on a PC dev box. The games these guys are talking about (PS exclusives) can run on the PC dev machines at those studios (GG, ND, SSM, etc.)
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Again it depends. The PS5 I/0 stack doesn't seem like the sort of thing I'd want to approximate on a PC! There are reasons why we go from target box through multiple dev-kit revisions/iterations on the road to platform launch, specifically so we can be absolutely sure there won't be unexpected snafu's on retail hardware.
Obviously its a big difference if you're third or first party, or straight up whether you have any interest in publishing to PC down the line. Because where the code/data runs is always a matter of convenience and utility... hitting milestones is all that counts.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It will happen for 2nd generation PS5 games bro. This "ALWAYS" happens. Games that come out Holiday 2021 will take huge advantage of the PS5's SSD.
Shouldn't it be more on you to tell us why HZD on the PC will look better than HZD2 on the PS5? Do you mean it'll be 60 FPS on the PC, whereas HZD2 will be 30 FPS on the PS5?
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martino
Member
taking advantage of the SSD =/= do things only possible with ps5 ssd
JimboJones
Member
PC gaming grew during the last economic crisis, and it's not like next gen console will be impulse purchases.
Gaming industry is fairly resistant.
alabtrosMyster
Member
When you develop on target hardware you do what you need to do, they probably built PCs with the best IO they could find, made versions of the PS5 libraries that run on them (or they just compile and run it the kit?). .. anyway they could run some version of the code that's close enough to get going for sure.
Or they had to get those workstation cards with the SSD n them to emulate direct videocard access to data (if it even impacts their project at all).
Also, studios used computers as development test beds for a very long time now, a red somewhere a long time ago that Sega had started development of a concept some pseudo 3d Sonic game on a PC back in the days, there was even a short video of it.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Since you know a thing or two about game coding as you yourself said, how much extra ram will be needed provided SSD advantage does materialise.
I am asking about minimum requirements for pc games if they have to do what SSD does.
My guess is system ram requirements won't change. 8 gb should be fine. Its the vram that will come under fire. 16 gb cards could become minimum. About 12 gb for assets and extra 4gb as buffer for streaming from hard drive. Could be more.
Again I don't exactly know if vram reads data from system ram or SSD. I am assuming it reads from SSD.
Thanks.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Maybe not, but then again, why design a game that is completely specific to an SSD dependent stream? What would it buy you that would make it stand out vs. something you could probably get away with without a dependent SSD stream? I'd love to see your game that is required to run with those constraints. I'm not sure that would give any kind of 3D incentives when the GPU would still be the ultimate line in the sand.
Yep. And you probably know that that is now the case from the PS side of things.
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DarkestHour
Banned
Is this your first experience with console hardware?
VFXVeteran
Banned
At this point, no. I've gotten so much flak for saying things and only getting a troll comment without anyone ever going into specifics. It could get technical very quickly. Also, my definition of better graphics is different than most of you. I don't equate the quality of a texture from an artist as a basis for declaring "looks almost CG" or "looks better than any PC game to date." Those are comments based specifically on subjective opinion, so coming in and declaring objective facts don't necessarily carry over very well to the PS gamer community.
No I'm not talking about just the framerate. I'm talking about the quality of the render. To me, if HZD on the PC used it's initial high-res texture data that was removed for the PS4 console (including higher resolution normal maps, shadow maps, etc..), added accuracy with HBAO+ for ambient occlusion, a true 4k resolution, higher 16x anisotropic filtering, more advanced form of AA, larger LOD distance, higher approximation shaders (i.e. SSS with more samples, higher resolution SSR, etc..) and added more FPS - it could very well look better than HZD 2 on PS5 *IF* and only *IF* you have a lot of the features I just mentioned, scaled down to make the PS5 run. This is assuming you have the same talent making the same textures and exact same assets. For example, RE2 remake and RE3 remake has very similar artistic consistency because they use the same artists and run the same graphics engine.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
There is no way I can answer that question without details about the game being developed. There are so many factors. I would literally have to mess with the API that Sony/MS provides to see what is feasible and what isn't. What chokes the pipeline and what doesn't. I'm sure the developers are all trying to figure that out now.
Having said that, if I were to develop a streaming system, I'd have to put focus on the end of the pipeline performance (i.e. the GPU) as a priority. It's more important that the GPU stays busy and bandwidth is used as much as possible. The SSD is literally the slowest throughput in the entire graphics pipeline. Same for a PC's I/O. If we are talking about a game that isn't open world, then there is no need to make a stream-dependent game as each level could fit in memory all in one go. It all depends on how much data your world will contain under a given fixed viewpoint at a fixed FPS target.
There will be more companies making 3rd party open-world games than 1st-party games, so I don't see the SSD being used to that caliber much. I seriously doubt a 3rd party game would require a PC gamer to have an SSD (i.e. like Witcher 4 for example).
Mobilemofo
Member
This thread reads like a pc eliteists defense thread.
Sony and ms has somenew shit coming out.. Better emphazise the mighty pc..
Don't worry about us console gamers. You just focus weather your pc can run (insert game name) at 250fps / 4k And so forth..
Sony and ms has somenew shit coming out.. Better emphazise the mighty pc..
Don't worry about us console gamers. You just focus weather your pc can run (insert game name) at 250fps / 4k And so forth..
RaySoft
Member
So you think Guerrilla Games has HZD2 running internally fine on a PC and that the PS5 version will be a somewhat downscaled version of that?
VFXVeteran
Banned
I think any game developed on PC at a 1st party studio will be the best implementation of that game whether it's the PS4/PS5/XSX, etc.. Why would it not? It has hardware that's significantly more powerful than a console and game companies don't have money constraints like consumers do.
JimboJones
Member
This thread reads like a pc eliteists defense thread.
Sony and ms has somenew shit coming out.. Better emphazise the mighty pc..
Don't worry about us console gamers. You just focus weather your pc can run (insert game name) at 250fps / 4k And so forth..
Then don't worry about pc gamers you just focus on buying your console
RaySoft
Member
I'm not even sure what you mean by "developed on PC", but I can assure you that games like HZD2 are heavily optimized to run on a PS5 to try and exploit all the ereas that the PS5 excell at. To make the game even run on a PC would require a significant rewrite of a lot of code, if at all. (data bandwith limitations)
I'm not saying you couldn't make s sandbox environment on a PC to test out some code and stuff, but they don't target their code for running on a PC. It's a reason they have a devkit on their desk, it's not there to collect dust.
But why on earth would a PS5 firstparty dev. waste resources to make two versions of their code just to make it run on a PC?
I'm not sure you know how crazy different much of the code would have to be? I'm talking about proprietary engines here, not 3rd party engines like Unreal/Unity etc. wich are usually used for ease of porting purposes anyways. In that case it would be a whole other story, but then you would sacrifice a lot of potential power that you could otherwise squeeze out of the hardware.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Do you work for GG or any Sony 1st party company to make such a statement?
RaySoft
Member
No, but it's a blatantly obvious fact.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That's a lot of "ifs" my friend. Plus I don't think it's healthy to hide behind "artist's work" to be honest.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
So you are guessing older games are coming to PC.
OMG you are the ultimate insider!
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Why not but em all?Then don't worry about pc gamers you just focus on buying your console
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
It's like saying 8k 120fps quake 1 looks better than breath of the wild because of resolution and framerate.
You can post pictures and people would laugh about it.
As I said in the other thread, take a recent pixar movie at 480p, it has better graphics than any current pc game even at 8k 120fps.
Only if the game has a special mode to run entirely off of ram, with ridiculously large ram buffers, as installing to ram is no faster than sata ssd and barely faster than an hdd. Even then it will take like 20+Min to load off of hdd or like 5+min to load off of ssd.
Based on rdna1 performance the series x matched the 2080, iirc, rdna2 is significantly more efficient, so it isn't out of the question that it could match the 2080 ti.
I wonder how that worked during the ps3 era, with cell, and the custom code that had to ran on it, while cell had performance in several ways superior to the best pc cpus of the time.
Or during the ps2 days with the vector units in the emotion engine and the graphic synthesizer's whose performance caused some effects to be downgraded even on the year later xbox. As it was nearly 5+years before pc gpus had similar graphic memory bandwidth, so some effects had to be downscaled in these.
yeah saying that because it has higher rez textures aniso, ambient occlusion and higher rate frame rate all of a sudden it is better graphics than a game with more complex geometry more advanced clothing and hair simulation better particle effects, etc. If we did that we enter a territory were texture modded 8k 120fps half life 1 is better looking than crysis, all of a sudden.
DoctaThompson
Banned
All Xbox games are on pc, and Sony will be dropping a bunch of their exclusives on pc as well. So you get the best iteration of each multiplatforms AND Sony exclusives. If you got a decent pc, it makes no sense to get a console, especially since many multiplayer games support crossplay now.
The only reason I bought a ps4, was to play bloodborne, which I couldn't even finish due to poor performance. Which was also the reason I returned my ps4. After playing all of the Dark souls games, Sekiro, Surge, Code vein, etc, all at locked 60fps, or 100fps, playing a game that drops below 30fps, is an automatic no-no. Hopefully that releases on pc soon, so I can finally enjoy the game.
DoctaThompson
Banned
Why do you guys honestly think you'll get a $1300 gpu? What is the logic in that? If you compare the series x running close to 100fps, @1080p-1440p, compare that to a 2080 TI, and prepare for disappointment. Also look at Minecraft running with horrible performance, compared to a 2080 TI, with higher resolution, framerate, FULL Pathtracing effects, textures, etc. All I can say is you guys at least are very hopeful.
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JimboJones
Member
Depends, if the recent raytraced quake that's actually seriously impressive. And you could make an argument that it's image quality shits all over Breath of the wild
Does that mean I can declare Mario Galaxy has better graphics than Spiderman on PS4? What metrics are we measuring better here?
Texture resolution?
Image Quality?
Post Processing?
Poly Count?
Framerate?
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ZywyPL
Banned
VFXVeteran
give up, you're fighting a lost fight, those kids think the devs write the game codes the same way they write their XBL/PSN messages, a.k.a. with d-pad and on-screen virtual keyboard... There are countless dev diaries, walkthroughs, behind the scenes etc. with whole studios being shown with the devs working and even doing presentations on PCs, but fanboys' denial is simply unbeatable.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
True, but I imagine having a devkit for 3 years as a 1st party would be enough time to get some major work out of the SSD in the PS5. Especially since the time to triangle on the PS5 is 30 days (instead of 1 year like on the PS3).
Our eyes. That's what 90% of gamers really care about when we are having these discussions. So yes, almost every gamer will say The Breath of the Wild looks better on the Switch at 30 FPS, than Quake 1 with RT, DLSS 2.0, 4K, and at 100FPS on a powerful PC.
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
You are definitely trolling
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Not consumer PC's.
Catch up with the thread this has been discussed.
JimboJones
Member
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
No because Spider Man still looks better if it was 480p.
$1300 GPU exist only because PCMR guys pay $1300 for a GPU, there is no other "why".
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
What other way could it be done?
DoctaThompson
Banned
Trolling? Or is it that you can't accept the fact? Is it true that all Xbox games are on pc, and going forward? Is it true that there have been several Sony published games released on pc? Did some of the games with the "PlayStation exclusive" tag, get removed? For instance games that were confirmed to come on pc like Horizon and Death Stranding, etc? Now GoW had the tag stripped, so I'm guessing it's next. I'm definitely not trolling, but you are definitely in denial, and possibly trolling as well.
It doesn't mean that the game is running on PC.
It also doesn't make any sense from the business standpoint: write all your engine code twice just to "also run on PC"? Who in their sane mind would do that?
Even for middlewares like UE4 the code path for different hardware is usually different. In the case of an exclusive game there is no point to use anything other than a devkit to run the build.
DoctaThompson
Banned
I'm guessing that works the same as, only console players are willing to spend several hundred dollars on machines with extremely weak Jaguar processors? I'd rather "over spend", and have better hardware 2 years earlier than a machine that hasn't even released yet. And from a company that is the leader of gpu's, with little to no completion from AMD on high end and enthusiast gpu's. Which is the same company that is making next gen consoles...
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I'm guessing that works the same as, only console players are willing to spend several hundred dollars on machines with extremely weak Jaguar processors? I'd rather "over spend", and have better hardware 2 years earlier than a machine that hasn't even released yet. And from a company that is the leader of gpu's, with little to no completion from AMD on high end and enthusiast gpu's. Which is the same company that is making next gen consoles...
Yep. That's correct. Pricing of anything in this world is purely based on a metric: "how much our target audience can possibly pay?".
Sometimes products fail because there is no pricing model that will make it profitable (cough, cough, Stadia).
pawel86ck
Banned
I guess Nv could lower 2080ti price a little, but I think the main reason why it cost so much it's because the chip itself is extremely big, and of top of that it's more diffucult to shrink GPU's. I will be not surprised if 2080ti killer from AMD with 80Cus will be also priced at 1000$.
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