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[Mr. Sam]

I'd rather carry on eating chicken the chicken we have and not have a race to the bottom with food safety standards tbh

This whole "vote with your wallet" logic has and always will be absolute bollocks. Consumers aren't perfectly informed, and sellers have a long history of lying about how good their products are in order to sell more.

I'm trying to find a direct link and it doesn't defeat your broader point but apparently, according to the EU's own research, there's no public health difference between chicken dipped in a chlorine bath and chicken that's, well, not been used as a doorstop to an alleyway.

 

[Chinner]

This isn't even mentioning the aspect of animal welfare. I guess it doesn't matter if they live in horrendous conditions. Out of sight out of mind, right?

 

[Spuck-uk]

I was to move to london since my company was about to to open a new office in London early last year and i was shocked how expensive London is compared to Hamburg.

Long story short, the London office was put on hold and some of the guys that were to work there got hired here in germany.

London is expensive to everywhere except perhaps Silicon Valley and New York (where software wages are far higher)

Violent colonialism and the subjugation of inferior natives.

Good point, the US has that sewn up nowadays

 

[Xando]

Yeah, London prizes are infamously horrendous, especially when you see what you get for the money (strictly speaking quality of flat, not quality of life). Especially when you know that Hamburg really isn't considered cheap in Germany either.

Yup. Compareable i had to pay atleast double of what i pay now in germany for a 3 room flat.

London is expensive to everywhere except perhaps Silicon Valley and New York (where software wages are far higher)

I was expecting to pay more but not 2/3 times of what i pay now. Especially since Hamburg is considered one of the most expensive towns in germany.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm trying to find a direct link and it doesn't defeat your broader point but apparently, according to the EU's own research, there's no public health difference between chicken dipped in a chlorine bath and chicken that's, well, not been used as a doorstop to an alleyway.

There's actually significantly more salmonella in EU Eggs and Chicken (15% vs 2% in the US) as a result - which doesn't matter if you cook it properly, but then lots of things don't matter if you cook it properly.

 

[TimmmV]

Yeah, thank god we have the EU here to protect us from accidentally eating horse meat we didn't want.

Proving my point that sellers lie?

But yeah, one example of the law failing to stop someone behaving badly, so may as well scrap the entire law!

By that logic we might as well just abolish all taxes because plenty of people dodge them

Incidentally, chlorinated chicken is absolutely fine. I dunno about all the rest, but then I'm not a food hygenist. I've heard enough otherwise-sensible people talk a load of cum-swill about chlorinated chicken, though, to know that someone saying "I don't want franken-foods" may well not know what they're talking about.

No one is saying that. It's the broader principle of lowering food standards for seemingly little gain

 

[Spuck-uk]

Yup. Compareable i had to pay atleast double of what i pay now in germany for a 3 room flat.



I was expecting to pay more but not 2/3 times of what i pay now. Especially since Hamburg is considered one of the most expensive towns in germany.

Yup, theres a good reason I live in Liverpool not London now

 

[CyclopsRock]

Proving my point that sellers lie?

But yeah, one example of the law failing to stop someone behaving badly, so may as well scrap the entire law!

By that logic we might as well just abolish all taxes because plenty of people dodge them

My point was that if they're lying then the regulations don't really matter because, well, they're lying.

No one is saying that. It's the broader principle of lowering food standards for seemingly little gain

Some people are saying that. In fact, the person I quoted was saying that. You say "seemingly little gain", but if the products gain traction in the market then clearly the consumers consider there to be some gain. If they don't, then no harm done. Note: I'm (and I don't think anyone) is suggesting that we cut away all the regulation. But in a hypothetical future people will have the option to eat chlorinated chicken or not eat it, which isn't a choice people have right now (and, again, given the benefits of doing so there may well be people peeved at their lack of ability to do it).

 

[Theonik]

My point was that if they're lying then the regulations don't really matter because, well, they're lying.

If they are lying and are caught doing it they will be fined. If you remove the regulations they might still choose to lie, except when they do there will be no real reciprocations.

'People are going to break the law anyway so why have laws?' is a pretty daft assertion.

 

[Psychotext]

Just read the label "Chlorine washed", guys!

...and never buy anything pre-processed, because yeah, it's all but guaranteed to be the absolute worst shit they can get away with.

 

[TimmmV]

My point was that if they're lying then the regulations don't really matter because, well, they're lying.

Theonik already said what I would have replied to this below

Some people are saying that. In fact, the person I quoted was saying that. You say "seemingly little gain", but if the products gain traction in the market then clearly the consumers consider there to be some gain. If they don't, then no harm done. Note: I'm (and I don't think anyone) is suggesting that we cut away all the regulation. But in a hypothetical future people will have the option to eat chlorinated chicken or not eat it, which isn't a choice people have right now (and, again, given the benefits of doing so there may well be people peeved at their lack of ability to do it).

That's not the case though - 50 years ago people weren't seeing any problem with smoking, but it turned out that its really bad for you, and people were harmed. Plus, the suppliers of cigarettes tried at every possible opportunity to minimise the reporting of how damaging smoking is. People aren't the best judges of their own health, and companies are happy to take advantage of that.

Like I said, consumers don't have perfect knowledge. So they may well perceive some gain - but in reality that's not what happens, and given the huge impact that diet has on a person/societies health it's irresponsible to be so blasé about something so serious

 

[Bony Manifesto]

The thing with chlorine-washed chicken is that it's a bit too obvious why it makes chicken so much cheaper, and there's no real way for its advocates to talk around it or deflect by highlighting some sort of tertiary benefit of the process.

But honestly, Liam Fox is right when he says that the media is fixated on the issue. There's going to be many, many other occasions where the UK will lower its standards and deregulate in order to secure trade deals with various countries. Especially with the Conservatives in charge, who will make a great show of having their arm twisted, but will actually be loving the excuse for sweeping deregulation across all industries.

 

[Joni]

Steve Bullock is a big Brexit believer.

Citing Euratom – the European Atomic Energy Community – he added: “Who knew a fortnight ago that leaving the apparently obscure Euratom Treaty would jeopardise not only the UK nuclear industry, but also the supply of medical isotopes for cancer treatment?”

In his scathing assessment, the former negotiator, who also worked for the Department for International Development, claimed some UK non-governmental organisations (NGOs), such as Oxfam, will not be eligible for EU grants after Britain’s exit from the union.

“Well, some people knew, but they’re just experts, so have been largely ignored.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...opean-union-steve-bullock-david-a7859106.html

 

[Funky Papa]

"Who knew that...?"

Future talking points.

 

[theaface]

Steve Bullock is a big Brexit believer.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...opean-union-steve-bullock-david-a7859106.html

“Brexit would have been a terrible idea even if done as well as possible, but for the Government to so blithely march the country towards consequences that they don’t even themselves understand is an appalling dereliction of duty”.

Sssshhhh. No hard truths now. Only remoaning.

 

[Burai]

Some people are saying that. In fact, the person I quoted was saying that. You say "seemingly little gain", but if the products gain traction in the market then clearly the consumers that can only afford that option will buy it because they have no choice. If they don't, then no harm done to the rest of us that can afford to buy decent meat. Note: I'm (and I don't think anyone) is suggesting that we cut away all the regulation. But in a hypothetical future people who can afford to will have the option to eat chlorinated chicken or not eat it, which isn't a choice those particular people have right now (and, again, given the benefits of doing so there may well be people peeved at their lack of ability to do it) and people who can't afford it can either eat their chemical washed, substandard shit or give up on chicken. What a fucking world to live in.

Let me correct that for you.

The thing that's angering me so much about this is how blasé people like yourself are about this. It's not like over the winter where the avian flu meant that hens were kept indoors so the quality of free range dropped out of genuine necessity. There's no severe weather conditions, transportation disputes. There's no war. Since the referendum, I'm getting less for my money, quality is dropping and I'm now being told that once we're finally out, the quality level apparently has no floor.

It's not about choice as much as you might like to pretend it is because there's nowhere I can choose to buy a packet of McVitties digestives with the missing 2 biscuits restored for the same price. There's nowhere I can choose to buy a pre-referendum 20p Freddo over a 30p one. Nowhere to choose the the £1 butter instead of the £1.30 one.

People living in poverty are already struggling to feed their families decent, nutritious food and now it's going to get even harder. There's no cheaper option because the price isn't coming down. How is this a choice?

 

[Tacitus_]

In his scathing assessment, the former negotiator, who also worked for the Department for International Development, claimed some UK non-governmental organisations (NGOs), such as Oxfam, will not be eligible for EU grants after Britain’s exit from the union.

Who could've known?

 

[Acorn]

I don't think we should encourage the tories weaken policies impulses.

 

[Wrestlemania]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-could-change-brexit-stance-10871230

Mr Gwynne, Labour’s election guru and shadow communities secretary, said Labour “trod a very clever fine line” on Brexit during the 2017 election, by accepting the referendum result while demanding Britain keeps all the benefits of being in the single market.

But he admitted this balance “could become a political problem for the Labour Party ” over the coming months.

And hinting at a possible future shift he said: “We recognise that the country voted to leave. Whether public opinion shifts in the course of the next couple of years will be interesting to see.

“And I think once the reality of what Brexit is going to look like becomes more apparent, it may well be that the political situation changes sufficiently that the Labour Party’s nuanced position might also have more flexibility.”

Mr Gwynne made clear any watering down of Labour’s support for a hard Brexit could only come if the public mood changes, however.

“As we speak I think we’ve got to tread that very fine cautious line on Brexit that got us through the election,” he said.

And Mr Gwynne, credited with overseeing Labour barnstorming election campaign, admitted both Labour and the Tories are badly divided over Brexit - and that voters in his own constituency of Denton and Reddish took a very different view to him on Europe.

“As a Remain-supporting MP representing a heavily Leave voting constituency, I am in a bit of a predicament,” he said.

“And I actually think the Labour Party trod a very clever fine line in the election that appealed to both Remain and Leave constituencies and Remain and Leave voters.

“I think it is our challenge to keep treading that fine line. Because yes, this could become a political problem for the Labour Party - but right now it’s one hell of a political problem for the Tories.”

Referring to the contrast between anti-Europe and pro-Europe Tory MPs, he went on: “Whatever deal they come back from Brussels with is not going to satisfy those on the ‘ultra’ wing of the Tory party, your John Redwoods and your Bill Cashs - they will see it as capitulation to Brussels.

“Likewise they’ve got to also make sure they don’t upset the Ken Clarkes and the Anna Soubrys of this world.”

But the Labour big-hitter added: “We’ve got the same issues.”

It'll be interesting to see how, or if, Corbyn positions Labour if the shift in public mood towards a clear majority wishing to remain continues.
If he's as anti-EU as people suspect and they stick to their guns on supporting essentially the same Brexit as the Tories, he's going to lose a lot of support from those who see the opportunity to at least attempt some form of reversal.

 

[Wrestlemania]

https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/890182058802393088

Had a few people today ask me for a list of future issues that could make a US-UK FTA tricky. Here's my starter for ten:

Chlorinated chicken is just the start of concrete examples starting to be pointed out about the possible issues we'll have with post-Brexit trade. I doubt any of this helps public perception of whether Brexit is going to be worthwhile.

 

[Xando]

Everybody ready?


UK Officials Have Privately Told Senior Bankers The Brexit Divorce Bill Will Be Close To £50 Billion

Britain’s final “divorce” bill for leaving the European Union could be as high as £50 billion, several current and former senior government officials have told City executives.

BuzzFeed News has learned of at least three separate recent occasions in which Whitehall insiders with knowledge of the Brexit negotiations told contacts in the banking sector that the UK will have to pay close to that amount, giving private assessments of the divorce bill that were different to the government’s public position.

One of the estimates was included in a confidential memo for top corporate executives compiled by well-connected former government officials, including some who worked at a high level in 10 Downing Street. The memo, seen by BuzzFeed News, claims that senior figures in government believe a payment of around £50 billion will be necessary to secure a trade deal with the EU before Britain leaves in March 2019.

That figure does not reflect the views of Theresa May or her closest advisers, a spokesman for Downing Street said.

The document was shared with BuzzFeed News on the condition that its authors were not identified.

BuzzFeed News is aware of two other, unconnected recent conversations in which officials from the Department for Exiting the EU (DExEu) and the Treasury gave similar estimates of the likely exit bill to senior executives at leading financial services firms. Those executives regarded the assessments as authoritative, even though the officials were giving accounts at variance with official government policy.

Separately, a Treasury official told BuzzFeed News the divorce bill would be around £45 billion.

And a former government employee with knowledge of the Brexit discussions said that “everybody sensible” in Whitehall believes the UK will end up paying a sum “in the tens of billions” to settle its obligations to the EU when it leaves.

The UK’s official position is that it will abide by its legal obligations to the EU, but that any financial settlement will be determined in the negotiations. The government has refused to comment on the size of the UK’s liabilities, or to say whether there will be a net payment when Britain leaves the union.

The exit bill is one of the first issues the UK and the EU have to resolve in the formal Brexit talks that began last month. Analysts have calculated that Britain’s financial commitments — which include yet to be paid contributions to the EU’s budget, its share of projects that are due to be initiated after 2019, and longer-term obligations such as pensions and loan guarantees — could be as high as £75 billion, although estimates have varied widely and some experts say Britain legally doesn’t owe anything.

More at the link

 

[jelly]

Ouch. The bill aside, even just making the UK functional with new institutions, oversight etc. is going to cost an absolute fortune, all while the economy goes tits up. It's absolute madness.

 

[PdotMichael]

EU not so a waste of money after people are forced to deal with all the things which are normally handled by the DU.

 

[kmag]

Ouch. The bill aside, even just making the UK functional with new institutions, oversight etc. is going to cost an absolute fortune, all while the economy goes tits up. It's absolute madness.

Shhh now, think of the unicorns.

 

[jelly]

Shhh now, think of the unicorns.

I shouldn't be talking down the UK, keep quiet and carry on......off the .....ahhhhhhh

 

[oti]

Ouch. The bill aside, even just making the UK functional with new institutions, oversight etc. is going to cost an absolute fortune, all while the economy goes tits up. It's absolute madness.

Thank god you guys saved all that money with austerity all those years. Right?

 

[theaface]

...does not reflect the views of Theresa May or her closest advisers.

deja vEU

 

[Joni]

https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/890182058802393088

Chlorinated chicken is just the start of concrete examples starting to be pointed out about the possible issues we'll have with post-Brexit trade. I doubt any of this helps public perception of whether Brexit is going to be worthwhile.

"USA more efficient at Whiskey manufacturing"

 

[Psychotext]

The hormone meat and milk will be the biggest issue in my opinion. Fucking hard to stop the race to the bottom there.

I don't really think there's much we can do about the inevitable sell off of the NHS... at least whilst the Conservatives are in power.

 

[sammex]

I love this

 

[jelly]

Experts.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/27/amber-rudd-asks-for-analysis-of-eu-migration-a-year-after-referendum

The home secretary, Amber Rudd, is to commission the independent Migration Advisory Committee to carry out a detailed analysis of the economic and social contributions and costs of EU citizens in Britain.

Announcing the study, Rudd also said the government would seek a transitional arrangement, likely to involve the continuation of free movement, to ensure there would be no “cliff edge” for employers or EU nationals in the country.

However, the study will not report back until September 2018 – seven months before Britain is set to formally exit the EU in March 2019.

The committee will also be asked to examine:

Which sectors are most reliant on EU labour.

The impact of a reduction in EU migration and the ways in which both business and the government could adjust to this change.

Whether there is any evidence that the availability of unskilled labour has led to low UK investment in certain sectors.

Whether there are advantages to focusing migrant labour on high-skilled jobs.

 

[Funky Papa]

Isn't that, like, the thing you should have done before espousing Brexit?

Isn't Rudd basically telling everyone that the entire Leave campaign was a farce supported on made up facts?

Don't you need that kind of data BEFORE engaging in negotiations so you can assess your strengths and weaknesses in order to get a better deal?

the fuckery of it

 

[jelly]

Yeah, it should at least have been done before triggering article 50 and before the vote. Not sure what their point is, last gasp save us from leaving hammer to Brexiter idiocy or deliberately leaving it too late so it doesn't matter.

I expect they will start to wind up the expert and enemies of the state hate for the committee to try and discredit it.

 

[slider]

Can we not be at least a little patriotic? /Leadsom

Where's my calculator. I want to know how many £350 millions I can squeeze into the (potential) £50 billion.

 

[PdotMichael]

The problem with being like singapore is that the spot is already taken.

 

[KingSnake]

Steve Bullock is a big Brexit believer.







http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...opean-union-steve-bullock-david-a7859106.html

10 years seem like an optimistic estimation for the time needed to sort all these little details out. You don't realise how many things is EU helping with or managing until you need to manage it on your own.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Can we not be at least a little patriotic? /Leadsom

Where's my calculator. I want to know how many £350 millions I can squeeze into the (potential) £50 billion.

171.43

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Isn't that, like, the thing you should have done before espousing Brexit?

Isn't Rudd basically telling everyone that the entire Leave campaign was a farce supported on made up facts?

Don't you need that kind of data BEFORE engaging in negotiations so you can assess your strengths and weaknesses in order to get a better deal.

the fuckery of it

Cameron's hubris should be required study for how not to host a massive referendum with political consequences for the entire fucking planet.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Isn't that, like, the thing you should have done before espousing Brexit?

Isn't Rudd basically telling everyone that the entire Leave campaign was a farce supported on made up facts?

Don't you need that kind of data BEFORE engaging in negotiations so you can assess your strengths and weaknesses in order to get a better deal?

the fuckery of it

Don't you DARE insult the British public.

We had Farage.

We had Hopkins.

We had Bojo.

We had The Daily Mail.

We had Donald Trump.

We had UKIP.

And you're here talking shit about "facts".

THE BRITISH PEOPLE KNEW WHAT THEY VOTED FOR!

 

[CyclopsRock]

Isn't that, like, the thing you should have done before espousing Brexit?

Isn't Rudd basically telling everyone that the entire Leave campaign was a farce supported on made up facts?

Don't you need that kind of data BEFORE engaging in negotiations so you can assess your strengths and weaknesses in order to get a better deal?

the fuckery of it

The main talking point re: Immigration during the campaigns was about control. Clearly the implication was that it would, using these controls, be lowered. But just because you leave the EU doesn't mean you actually need (or want) to lower immigration. So I don't think this is a case of making assumptions and then later trying to find evidence for it, but rather working out the best way to use the new control.

Of course, I'm being rather charitable here.

 

[Theonik]

Can we not be at least a little patriotic? /Leadsom

Where's my calculator. I want to know how many £350 millions I can squeeze into the (potential) £50 billion.

How many DUP MPs.

 

[twofoldd]

Isn't that, like, the thing you should have done before espousing Brexit?

Isn't Rudd basically telling everyone that the entire Leave campaign was a farce supported on made up facts?

Don't you need that kind of data BEFORE engaging in negotiations so you can assess your strengths and weaknesses in order to get a better deal?

the fuckery of it

They did do a study. Theresa May wasn't too happy with the results, though..

Theresa May faced accusations from within government that she tried to remove evidence about the positive impact of immigration on the British economy from a critical report that was published before the EU referendum.

Correspondence seen by the Guardian lays bare a six-month tussle between Conservative and Liberal Democrat advisers over the study, which was part of a government-wide exercise into the pros and cons of EU membership.

Emails dating back to 2014 show Lib Dem advisers, who were then in government as part of the coalition, complaining repeatedly about May's interventions.

They claimed internally that the then home secretary was determined to paint a negative picture of Britain's relationship with European countries when it came to immigration.

The Guardian - Theresa May accused of trying to alter immigration report before Brexit vote

 

[Mr. Sam]

I mean, here's the thing - Andrea Leadsom's saying there'll be a transition deal, Brandon Lewis is saying there'll be an end to freedom of movement in March 2019; those two things are entirely incompatible. I know it's hard to be surprised at this point but... Christ.

 

[KingSnake]

Without some kind of a transition deal, there are so many areas in UK that can't really function properly because there isn't enough time to adjust legislation and create/modify organisations to implement it.

 

[Xando]

I mean, here's the thing - Andrea Leadsom's saying there'll be a transition deal, Brandon Lewis is saying there'll be an end to freedom of movement in March 2019; those two things are entirely incompatible. I know it's hard to be surprised at this point but... Christ.

That’s what happens when you have a weak leader who can’t get people in line.

This is also why i think negotiations will fail. UK government loves to negotiate a deal with themselves and ignoring the other side of the channel.

I mean they can’t even get past the citizen issue at this point

 

[Orniletter]

I love this

I'm just here to say that I really do appreciate that you continue to post these funny headlines and frontpages in this thread.
I got a good chuckle out of a friend who'll watch Dunkirk later today with me.

Cheers !

 

[Burai]

Remember that walk-out that was scheduled for August to play to the right-wing rags?

It'shappening.gif

 

[JonathanEx]

I mean, here's the thing - Andrea Leadsom's saying there'll be a transition deal, Brandon Lewis is saying there'll be an end to freedom of movement in March 2019; those two things are entirely incompatible. I know it's hard to be surprised at this point but... Christ.

It's as if every MP is making up what they're saying as they go along

Ha ha

Ha

ha

 

[Snarfington]

Remember that walk-out that was scheduled for August to play to the right-wing rags?

It'shappening.gif

I don't remember reading about it, got any info?

I wish I could say "I can't believe how unreasonable and incompetent everyone on the British side is being", but I'm really not surprised at all.

 

[Xando]

Clickbait title incoming

Exclusive: EU threat to suspend Brexit talks unless Britain pays its divorce bill

Europe has warned that the next phase of Brexit negotiations will be delayed for two months because of the UK’s refusal to engage with Brussels on the so-called ‘Brexit divorce bill’, The Telegraph can reveal.

Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, made the warning in a private meeting with EU ambassadors in Brussels, according to an account of the meeting obtained by The Telegraph.

The EU has said it will not talk about trade or the UK’s future relationship with the EU - tantamount to a suspension in Brexit negotiations - until “sufficient progress” has been made over the questions of protecting citizens’ rights, the Northern Ireland border and the financial settlement.

Telegraph with the exclusive hot take noone knew*

Spoiler

*It's in the official EU negotiating mandate