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[Audioboxer]

It's kind of interesting, because if some of these same sentiments were said in US-related thread, bans would most likely be swift.

What is interesting is not a false equivalency, but that what is going on in Europe isn't 1:1 with what is going on in America, and for once maybe it is okay for American-GAF to let European-GAF debate things that are going on on this side of the pond. Not that anyone cannot get involved, but trying to draw the comparison you say this topic could be interchangeable with a US topic isn't exactly grounded. Hence why posts above about Mexicans, rapists and what I assume to be Donald Trump remarks were so out of reality with how this topic had been progressing. On the note of the refugee crisis, how many refugees has American taken in compared to Germany? My point there isn't to put America down, but simply highlight what is going on in Europe is largely about Europe.

Either way it's just sad trying to instigate posters get banned for debates that are actually worthwhile engagement and reading for the most part. I mean please do highlight your sentiments that you are referring to though, like others have been challenged to do when they claim "right wing rhetoric" in this topic but don't actually provide evidence. Throwing an accusation is the easy part, having the evidence is sometimes an afterthought.

Do tell, how is blocking Mexicans in hope you're going to prevent a minimal percentage of them from committing crimes different from blocking refugees because one of them might be a terrorist? You guys keep on crying about "meaningful discussion" yet you can't even seem to be able to refute such a simple argument.

See what I've just posted. Bringing in anger at Trump rhetoric to this topic is largely unfounded. Again, no one is asking for mass blocking of refugees, but better screening even if it takes more time and allows a slower amount to come in at a time. Men in their 20's shouldn't be passing as 14~16 year olds, not in some of the numbers they have been.

A bit of a break from the immigration debate going on. Interesting to see multiple countries around Europe are putting armed soldiers everywhere now at these events. Still don't know if that actually makes me feel safer or not, but better then nothing of course.



And those barriers are going up all around on events to prevent these kind of attacks. Seems that will be the standard going forward then. Sad state of affairs.

It makes people feel at unease and on guard, but it's understandable why a visible presence has been put out. In years gone by there has been multiple attacks around Christmas, the worry would be about copycats for the next few days.

 

[Kinyou]

I'm not up to the latest news but if it's true the guy they got is the wrong one then we know nothing about the actual perpetrator, right? (aside from eyewitness reports which are not always reliable)

Also no terror organization has claimed responsibility for this yet?

Apparently not. The police is certain that it was a deliberate attack though.

 

[Pennywise]

Many of these people are not from war torn countries, and if EU/German officials made it clear that people coming illegally would be turned away there would be significantly less people making the trip in the first place.

That's exactly what they've been doing in some countries.

I'm not up to the latest news but if it's true the guy they got is the wrong one then we know nothing about the actual perpetrator, right? (aside from eyewitness reports which are not always reliable)

Also no terror organization has claimed responsibility for this yet?

We don't know.
Apart from the eyewitness reports, the police is surely gonna analyze video/picture material they got. They opened a platform for uploads and I'm sure they collected phones/data from those that filmed during the tragedy.

 

[MUnited83]

What is interesting is not a false equivalency, but that what is going on in Europe isn't 1:1 with what is going on in America, and for once maybe it is okay for American-GAF to let European-GAF debate things that are going on on this side of the pond. Not that anyone cannot get involved, but trying to draw the comparison you say this topic could be interchangeable with a US topic isn't exactly grounded. Hence why posts above about Mexicans, rapists and what I assume to be Donald Trump remarks were so out of reality with how this topic had been progressing. On the note of the refugee crisis, how many refugees has American taken in compared to Germany? My point there isn't to put America down, but simply highlight what is going on in Europe is largely about Europe.

Either way it's just sad trying to instigate posters get banned for debates that are actually worthwhile engagement and reading for the most part. I mean please do highlight your sentiments that you are referring to though, like others have been challenged to do when they claim "right wing rhetoric" in this topic but don't actually provide evidence. Throwing an accusation is the easy part, having the evidence is sometimes an afterthought.



See what I've just posted. Bringing in anger at Trump rhetoric to this topic is largely unfounded.



It makes people feel at unease and on guard, but it's understandable why a visible presence has been put out. In years gone by there has been multiple attacks around Christmas, the worry would be about copycats for the next few days.

I'm European thank you very much. And you still haven't explained on how blocking people from coming from other places because a ridiculously small percentage of them might do bad stuff is any different from blocking people from coming from other places because a ridiculously small percentage of them might do bad stuff.

 

[pantheon]

I think Germany has shown the world how compassionate it is by letting refugees come in more or less without check, though it did not really need to. However, I cannot understand two things:

First, why cannot the refugees, who are seeking refuge from conflict, be willing to go back to their countries once the conflict is over? Surely out of millions of Syrian refugees already in Germany a sizable number must be willing to go back once the civil war is over. Those refugees whom Germany employs in their workforce might have a reason to stay but those living on food-stamps should have to find their way back and rebuild their country. I cannot understand why that is somehow considered an immoral option. Moreover, why do we hear about Pakistani refugees when Pakistan is not a war zone and seems to be doing rather above average (by Muslim-majority country standards)?

Secondly, I cannot understand why the left considers q thorough vetting and screening process, including turning away single males with an iffy background, to be against Western values. Germany can be accommodating and compassionate yet still have a fool-proof refugee vetting and screening system to prevent dangerous folks to find an easy way into Europe.

I say this as a Pakistani who is doing post-graduation in Germany and fully intends to go back once the education is over.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm European thank you very much. And you still haven't explained on how blocking people from coming from other places because a ridiculously small percentage of them might do bad stuff is any different from blocking people from coming from other places because a ridiculously small percentage of them might do bad stuff.

Probably because the way in which you sum up your gotcha argument is not how anyone in here is debating. Your either/or choice you are trying to throw at me and others is getting ignored because it's simply an attempt for you to marginalise nuanced debate into two boxes, one of which you will seemingly be waiting to scold for.

Hence my remark at you using the world "block" constantly. Better immigration control isn't about blanket blocking, it's about trying to make sure this "ridiculously small percentage" you keep referring to doesn't get in at all, or doesn't as easily. As I've said a few times in here, rather flippantly, please go and tell those grieving right now "it's just a small percentage" over and over. I'm sure you'll make them feel better... Right now they'll be looking at the German government and thinking it doesn't matter how small the number of radicals, why are they getting in unchecked in the first place? Largely with Germany it is because of the amount of people they let in at once, and the majority of them never having ANY sort of screening done at all. The society literally couldn't even attempt to cope with trying to assimilate so many people at once.

 

[Dalibor68]

spreading extreme right-wing ideology and denying any questions is - not - a good discussion.

also why do you now emphasize the germanic citizenship but deny the french citizenship in the other case?
Make up your mind or please just stop with that ideology that some people are more worth than others regarding their blood / ancestors or whatever. thanks.

So let's take your post as an example.

As response to a poster saying "Closing the borders won't help, natives are committing most of the terror attacks" I responded that this is an extreme oversimplification to such an extent that I have a hard time believing it's written without trying to purposefully misdirect. I wrote that is were defacto not your average frenchmen but all french-born citizens of north-african/middle-eastern migration background. That is a very different picture from saying "french people are committing terrorist acts themselves". Further I explained that usually every single statistic by governments or international organisations such as the OECD differentiate between natives without migration background and those with migration backgrounds(often even differentiating further between EU/Non-EU or even individual background countries). So unless all those governments and international organisation have "extreme rightwing ideology" your arguement is baseless. Yet here we are a few pages later and you bring up the exact same thing about supposed "extreme right ideology".

Then you try to make some weird connection of saying I said those terrorists were not french citizens but now I talk about german citizens. First of all you will notice I never said those terrorists were not french citizens, because of course they are and migration background or not doesn't change the citizenship itself, I never claimed otherwise nor does it have any relevance here. Yet you decided to invent a fake statement by me anyways and went ahead with it. And the statement about the german citizenships was obviously because before the bodies had not been identified yet so it could also have been tourists for example. It is newsworthy information.

This is the very twisting or even inventing of words to make the opposite look bad that is poisoning discussions.

(Also I have no problem admitting that maybe my english definition of "native" is wrong; I was under the impression that native means "citizen without migration background".)

 

[ant_]

I'm European thank you very much. And you still haven't explained on how blocking people from coming from other places because a ridiculously small percentage of them might do bad stuff is any different from blocking people from coming from other places because a ridiculously small percentage of them might do bad stuff.

Please stop trying to push forward this false equivalency. Immigrants from Mexico (illegal & legal) are not comparable to refugees from a war-torn middle east. They both have problems with perception in society but the two issues are completely separate. Your strawman does not strengthen your argument.

Address the point as it stands, just as you are requesting of others: There should be stronger efforts made to screen refugees before they are allowed to enter Germany (or westernized European countries) in an attempt to reduce the potential for terrorism and increase the potential for assimilation.

 

[MUnited83]

I think Germany has shown the world how compassionate it is by letting refugees come in more or less without check, though it did not really need to. However, I cannot understand two things:

First, why cannot the refugees, who are seeking refuge from conflict, be willing to go back to their countries once the conflict is over? Surely out of millions of Syrian refugees already in Germany a sizable number must be willing to go back once the civil war is over. Those refugees whom Germany employs in their workforce might have a reason to stay but those living on food-stamps should have to find their way back and rebuild their country. I cannot understand why that is somehow considered an immoral option. Moreover, why do we hear about Pakistani refugees when Pakistan is not a war zone and seems to be doing rather above average (by Muslim-majority country standards)?

Secondly, I cannot understand why the left considers q thorough vetting and screening process, including turning away single males with an iffy background, to be against Western values. Germany can be accommodating and compassionate yet still have a fool-proof refugee vetting and screening system to prevent dangerous folks to find an easy way into Europe.

I say this as a Pakistani who is doing post-graduation in Germany and fully intends to go back once the education is over.

You can ask asylum for more than just fleeing from war. It's not like it's a new thing, Europe has been accepting and giving asylum to a lot of people in the last 20 years.
You can ask for asylum even if your country is persecuting you for your race/caste/sexual orientation/political opinions/religion

Article 1 of the Convention, as amended by the 1967 Protocol, defines a refugee as this:

"A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.."[9]

Please stop trying to push forward this false equivalency. Immigrants from Mexico (illegal & legal) are not comparable to refugees from a war-torn middle east. They both have problems with perception in society but the two issues are completely separate. Your strawman does not strengthen your argument.

Address the point as it stands, just as you are requesting of others: There should be stronger efforts made to screen refugees before they are allowed to enter Germany (or westernized European countries) in an attempt to reduce the potential for terrorism and increase the potential for assimilation.

If they're not comparable, how come you guys can't seem to be able to actually say why they aren't comparable? Still waiting.
Also, what would be those magical screening procedures you guys suggest to be put in place?

 

[superdeluxe]

First, why cannot the refugees, who are seeking refuge from conflict, be willing to go back to their countries once the conflict is over? Surely out of millions of Syrian refugees already in Germany a sizable number must be willing to go back once the civil war is over. Those refugees whom Germany employs in their workforce might have a reason to stay but those living on food-stamps should have to find their way back and rebuild their country. I cannot understand why that is somehow considered an immoral option.
.

When your government uses chemical weapons against its own citizens, would you go back to that (And that is if you still had a home/city to go back too). That and we don't know what kind of reprisals they might be in for when they do get back.

 

[Pennywise]

I think Germany has shown the world how compassionate it is by letting refugees come in more or less without check, though it did not really need to. However, I cannot understand two things:

First, why cannot the refugees, who are seeking refuge from conflict, be willing to go back to their countries once the conflict is over? Surely out of millions of Syrian refugees already in Germany a sizable number must be willing to go back once the civil war is over. Those refugees whom Germany employs in their workforce might have a reason to stay but those living on food-stamps should have to find their way back and rebuild their country. I cannot understand why that is somehow considered an immoral option. Moreover, why do we hear about Pakistani refugees when Pakistan is not a war zone and seems to be doing rather above average (by Muslim-majority country standards)?

There isn't only war as proper reason for asylum.
People are persecuted for various reasons, including war, sexuality, religion and other things.
I'm pretty sure a rather big number of refugees would love to get back, but the status quo simply doesn't allow it.
We don't know the reason behind the Pakistani being here.
You can surely argue that the asylum process is something that takes to long and is pretty complex in alot of cases, but you'll have to see the sheer numbers combined with states not willing to take people back among other things that complicate that process.

Secondly, I cannot understand why the left considers q thorough vetting and screening process, including turning away single males with an iffy background, to be against Western values. Germany can be accommodating and compassionate yet still have a fool-proof refugee vetting and screening system to prevent dangerous folks to find an easy way into Europe.

I say this as a Pakistani who is doing post-graduation in Germany and fully intends to go back once the education is over.

They surely will, or at least continue to watch them.

You make it sound pretty easy, but sadly that's not the case.
It would have been alot easier, if Europe and other nations stood together and gave everyone a certain amount of people to handle.
Just imagine how much easier it would have been, if every country would only handle a specific amount of people. The security process, the asylum process and everything would have been alot faster.
Some nations just ignored the problem though....

 

[Audioboxer]

There isn't only war as proper reason for asylum.
People are persecuted for various reasons, including war, sexuality, religion and other things.
I'm pretty sure a rather big number of refugees would love to get back, but the status quo simply doesn't allow it.
We don't know the reason behind the Pakistani being here.
You can surely argue that the asylum process is something that takes to long and is pretty complex in alot of cases, but you'll have to see the sheer numbers combined with states not willing to take people back among other things that complicate that process.


They surely will, or at least continue to watch them.

You make it sound pretty easy, but sadly that's not the case.
It would have been alot easier, if Europe and other nations stood together and gave everyone a certain amount of people to handle.
Just imagine how much easier it would have been, if every country would only handle a specific amount of people. The security process, the asylum process and everything would have been alot faster.
Some nations just ignored the problem though....

Sadly that is an understatement, as I posted earlier

Gulf countries including Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Bahrain have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees.

Other high income countries including Russia, Japan, Singapore and South Korea have also offered zero resettlement places.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/02/syrias-refugee-crisis-in-numbers/

 

[ClosingADoor]

If they're not comparable, how come you guys can't seem to be able to actually say why they aren't comparable? Still waiting.
Also, what would be those magical screening procedures you guys suggest to be put in place?

Why are two completely different types of cultures not the same when trying to integrate them into Western society is basically what you are asking.

You then need to look at the lessons learned over the past decades with this, which has shown a growing divide between groups and people living in parallel societies that we have no grasp on.

It has shown that integrating people from Middle Eastern cultures has brought with it more challenges then, let's say, South America. This is very understandable, since we share a lot more with South American cultures, considering those are coming from Spanish and Portuguese roots.

So if we have already seen those problems, we can either pretend that this time it will be different, or try to make changes where necessary to give people a better chance to integrate into society.

 

[ant_]

If they're not comparable, how come you guys can't seem to be able to actually say why they aren't comparable? Still waiting.

Also, what would be those magical screening procedures you guys suggest to be put in place?

Sure. The mere reason they are immigrating is completely different. Immigrants from Mexico are looking to adapt to a Western Society and want to be a part of it. Their cultures allow them to easily assimilate and they embrace the new culture they find themselves in. They are not fleeing a war-torn country. There is a huge difference between the culture in Mexico and the culture in the middle east. There is a difference with how compatible they are with western & liberal ideals.

And, whether you like it or not, but Mexican citizens are not more prone to ideas of radical islam. Comparing terrorism inspired from Radical Islam to non-religiously motivated crimes (rape, murder, etc.) is another false equivalency.

The two situations are completely different. Please stop comparing them.

 

[EloKa]

(Also I have no problem admitting that maybe my english definition of "native" is wrong; I was under the impression that native means "citizen without migration background".)

then your personal definition is simply wrong.

the last time you had to prove that you were "fully" native was in nazi germany when you had to show that your bloodline was since 3 generations "fully native". It's never a good idea to start a discussion about someone beeing "not native enough" by your personal standards.

 

[Dalibor68]

It's kind of interesting, because if some of these same sentiments were said in US-related thread, bans would most likely be swift.

Not comparanle because completely different situations as the US gets to pick and choose their refugees and after years of vetting.

Imagine for a moment that the US suddenly had to take in from 4,5million(german vs us population) to 27million(german vs us space) refugees from the most wartorn countries on this planet like Afghanistan within one year without proper vetting. And imagine the cologne stuff had happened in New York City. I have a hard time imagining there would be "more" tolerance by the country that just elected a president who ran on a platform asking for muslim registries.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Sure. The mere reason they are immigrating is completely different. Immigrants from Mexico are looking to adapt to a Western Society and want to be a part of it. Their cultures allow them to easily assimilate and they embrace the new culture they find themselves in. They are not fleeing a war-torn country. There is a huge difference between the culture in Mexico and the culture in the middle east. There is a difference with how compatible they are with western & liberal ideals.

And, whether you like it or not, but Mexican citizens are not more prone to ideas of radical islam. Comparing terrorism inspired from Radical Islam to non-religiously motivated crimes (rape, murder, etc.) is another false equivalency.

The two situations are completely different. Please stop comparing them.

There's a lot of illegal immigration from Mexico, though and US posters do seem to be far more accepting of illegal immigrants from that area with the sanctuary cities and all so he does have a point here. Though the impression is that the vast majority of them genuinely want to embrace a western society and just want a better life, and they have to come in illegally because the legal routes are just so damn difficult, which is a different situation I guess. The US would have far, far less illegal immigration if they just made it easier to work there. The attitude in a lot of places in the US is that even though you're illegal they'll leave you alone unless you're a felon or something.

From a human perspective I do understand the motivations to go from poor countries to rich ones, it is a completely rational decision. My parents immigrated to the UK from South East Asia which is generally pretty shitty just for a better life, so I definitely understand. But if someone murders people from a country which has shown nothing but kindness to you, then my sympathy runs out completely.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Where are you based? I keep hearing similar stories but my experience is the complete opposite. It took us over a year to find a firm to renovate our business (high six figure project) because they were all so busy. I've had drinks with the owners of the two firms we used and they both complained about a tradesmen shortage (North London based) and having to hire more and more Lithuanians. In February, I needed a sparky for a new shower and it took me over 15 phone calls to find someone who could do it that month. In November we wanted our fireplace knocked through - the handful of places I could find who wanted the job all gave me crazy start dates like March '17. Ended up going with a Polish recommendation who had men available the following week. This is all anecdotal, but there seems to be more than enough work to go around.

Outer east London, I cannot speak for big firms except to say most workers just bang trunking and conduit in all day, requires no electrical knowledge BUT they need prove a certain level of knowledge to get certain cards to work on sites which could be holding workers back.

On an independent level where I am, I would assume some turn down work they don't know how to do and others prefer to stick with 'big' jobs, I'm certainly never fully booked for more than a week and can typically fit something like a shower in within 2-4 days of a call most weeks of the year.

Officially there is a shortage of electricians in the UK, but really it just a shortage of above board ones for major industry, are too many cowboys and people I'm pretty sure have no qualification anywhere working for independent firms, immigrant or not.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

For those wondering about the question of 'why can't refugees go back to their home nations when the conflict is over', it's worth noting that's exactly what many of the refugees do in fact want. The problem in the short term is that an end to the conflicts, political troubles, and economic issues that drove them to Europe's borders aren't often in sight. The most obvious, Syria, is not likely going to be over by the end of 2017, and I doubt an end in 2018 is likely either. This could run right into the next decade. So it's fair enough to expect and to encourage refugees to be prepared to return to their places of origin once it is safe to do so, but please do not frame any discussion in the context that such will happen soon, or that even merely the end of open conflict alone will class as 'safe'.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sure. The mere reason they are immigrating is completely different. Immigrants from Mexico are looking to adapt to a Western Society and want to be a part of it. Their cultures allow them to easily assimilate and they embrace the new culture they find themselves in. They are not fleeing a war-torn country. There is a huge difference between the culture in Mexico and the culture in the middle east. There is a difference with how compatible they are with western & liberal ideals.

And, whether you like it or not, but Mexican citizens are not more prone to ideas of radical islam. Comparing terrorism inspired from Radical Islam to non-religiously motivated crimes (rape, murder, etc.) is another false equivalency.

The two situations are completely different. Please stop comparing them.

Not comparanle because completely different situations as the US gets to pick and choose their refugees and after years of vetting.

Imagine for a moment that the US suddenly had to take in from 4,5million(german vs us population) to 27million(german vs us space) refugees from the most wartorn countries on this planet like Afghanistan within one year without proper vetting. And imagine the cologne stuff had happened in New York City. I have a hard time imagining there would be "more" tolerance by the country that just elected a president who ran on a platform asking for muslim registries.

Explained in a bit more detail than me just saying it's not the same, but yeah, as above, it's not exactly the same. The refugee crisis has been something Europe has largely been trying to handle and offer aid in. As always and to state it again, trying to help those fleeing for their lives is a motivation to be proud of, and proud of your country, but it is still a complex matter that requires great attention and care to do it all right. Or as right as you can.

 

[chadskin]

SPIEGEL reporting two new details, citing security sources: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...-weihnachtsmarkt-herum-a-1126840.html#ref=rss

- Pakistani refugee was apprehended because he matched a 'rudimentary' description given by an eyewitness who saw the perpetrator exit the truck following the crash. That eyewitness only saw the perpetrator briefly and then lost track of him, he didn't chase him all the way until the police apprehended him as had been previously reported.
- The truck drove around the Christmas market once before it drove into it.

 

[Dalibor68]

SPIEGEL reporting two new details, citing security sources: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...-weihnachtsmarkt-herum-a-1126840.html#ref=rss

- Pakistani refugee was apprehended because he matched a 'rudimentary' description given by an eyewitness who saw the perpetrator exit the truck following the crash. That eyewitness only saw the perpetrator briefly and then lost track of him, he didn't chase him all the way until the police apprehended him as had been previously reported.
- The truck drove around the Christmas market once before it drove into it.

Interesting. But they haven't cleared the pakistani refugee yet, have they? How long do these DNA tests usually take?

 

[trembli0s]

There's a lot of illegal immigration from Mexico, though and US posters do seem to be far more accepting of illegal immigrants from that area with the sanctuary cities and all so he does have a point here. Though the impression is that the vast majority of them genuinely want to embrace a western society and just want a better life, and they have to come in illegally because the legal routes are just so damn difficult, which is a different situation I guess. The US would have far, far less illegal immigration if they just made it easier to work there. The attitude in a lot of places in the US is that even though you're illegal they'll leave you alone unless you're a felon or something.

From a human perspective I do understand the motivations to go from poor countries to rich ones, it is a completely rational decision. My parents immigrated to the UK from South East Asia which is generally pretty shitty just for a better life, so I definitely understand. But if someone murders people from a country which has shown nothing but kindness to you, then my sympathy runs out completely.

There's a lot of immigration, sure. But when was the last politically motivated terrorist attack committed by a Mexican, or Mexican-American, in the United States?

That's his point I believe. This isn't an apples to apples comparison of immigration subsets when the unifying element in nearly all of these attacks has been fundamentally scriptural Islamic tenets employed to horrific ends.

If Europe's next door neighbor was India, you would still have cultural Europeans grousing about immigrants, but they wouldn't be grousing about Indian terrorists in all likelihood.

 

[Audioboxer]

SPIEGEL reporting two new details, citing security sources: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...-weihnachtsmarkt-herum-a-1126840.html#ref=rss

- Pakistani refugee was apprehended because he matched a 'rudimentary' description given by an eyewitness who saw the perpetrator exit the truck following the crash. That eyewitness only saw the perpetrator briefly and then lost track of him, he didn't chase him all the way until the police apprehended him as had been previously reported.
- The truck drove around the Christmas market once before it drove into it.

BBC reporting it too

Der Spiegel (in German) says it has been told that Polish lorry driver Lukasz Urban died from a single shot to the head from a small-calibre gun and was already dead when the attacker drove the vehicle at Christmas market crowds.

The attacker reportedly also drove around the market before aiming the vehicle at people, perhaps in order to get a better run-up, Spiegel reports.

The attacker got out of the lorry and was followed by a witness who is then said to have lost him in the Tiergarten park.

A Pakistani man was later arrested at the Victory Monument on the basis of the description of the attacker given to police by the witness, Spiegel says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-38370364

Some good news

Berlin police say that 24 people injured in Monday's attack have now left hospital to reunite with their relatives.

In all, 12 people were killed and 48 wounded when the lorry ploughed into Berlin's Christmas market.

Germany's interior minister earlier said that 18 of the injured were in a serious condition.

 

[chadskin]

Interesting. But they haven't cleared the pakistani refugee yet, have they? How long do these DNA tests usually take?

Sounds like they don't have enough evidence to issue an arrest warrant at this point, so I assume he'll be released from police custody soon-ish. Perhaps they're just waiting for the DNA results now.

edit: SPIEGEL is now reporting the Pakistani refugee has been released.

 

[jorma]

I think Germany has shown the world how compassionate it is by letting refugees come in more or less without check, though it did not really need to. However, I cannot understand two things:

First, why cannot the refugees, who are seeking refuge from conflict, be willing to go back to their countries once the conflict is over? Surely out of millions of Syrian refugees already in Germany a sizable number must be willing to go back once the civil war is over. Those refugees whom Germany employs in their workforce might have a reason to stay but those living on food-stamps should have to find their way back and rebuild their country. I cannot understand why that is somehow considered an immoral option. Moreover, why do we hear about Pakistani refugees when Pakistan is not a war zone and seems to be doing rather above average (by Muslim-majority country standards)?

They can go back, and a lot if not most of them will go back. Ask them today and they will say that they intend to go back. But if the conflict doesn't get resolved for a longer time they will find roots in their new country and might change their mind. They might now have kids who doesn't know anything other than their new country and might want to stay for their sake, because after all - there will be better opportunities for them in Europe than in a Syria that has to rebuild.

And i think it's a bad idea to outright say that they will be sent home when the conflict is over. To me that seems like a good way to ensure that they won't even try to integrate, because what would be the point?

 

[superdeluxe]

Sky News: Suspect has been released.

 

[Audioboxer]

German prosecutors say the Pakistani man who was arrested after Monday's truck attack in Berlin has been released because of "insufficient evidence".

The man detained, who had denied involvement, arrived in Germany at the end of last year. He was captured in a park after reportedly fleeing the scene.

"The accused, detained over the attack on the Berlin Christmas market on December 19, 2016, was let go on this evening on the orders of the federal prosecutor," his office said in a statement.

"The forensic tests carried out so far did not provide evidence of the accused's presence during the crimes in the cab of the lorry."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-38370364

Glad an innocent man is free, worried the attacker is still at large.

 

[Violet_0]

Spiegel magazine got a short timeline of the events and what we know so far:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...lin-was-am-19-dezember-geschah-a-1126773.html

9:00 am - the Polish truck carrying steel parts arrives in Berlin, coming from Italy. The driver, a cousin of the boss of the truck company, parks it in the city district Moabit

15.00 pm - the driver call his wife, is not heard of again afterwards

15.45 pm - according to the GPS data of the truck company, the truck was moved back and forth several times, as if someone was trying to learn how to drive it

16.52 pm and 17.37 pm - the truck is started two times according to the company

19.34 pm - the truck leaves the parking spot

20.00 pm - the truck is sighted near the christmas market, coming rom the west. Some witnesses say the headlights are turned off

shortly after 20.00 pm - the truck leaves the street and drives towards the stalls in a pedastrian area, hitting a crowd of people and killing 12. After 30 to 40 meters the truck is steered towards the street again and comes to a stop. The driver escapes, the body of a Polish man is being found in the truck cabin [he was presumably killed with a gun]

21.59 Uhr pm - the police takes a suspect into custody near the Victory Column. A witness followed the suspect from the Breitscheidplatz and alerted the authorities. The suspect, a young Pakistani man, denies being involved in the attack. The police isn't sure if he is the man they are searching for

and this seems to be the newest development

SPIEGEL reporting two new details, citing security sources: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...-weihnachtsmarkt-herum-a-1126840.html#ref=rss

- Pakistani refugee was apprehended because he matched a 'rudimentary' description given by an eyewitness who saw the perpetrator exit the truck following the crash. That eyewitness only saw the perpetrator briefly and then lost track of him, he didn't chase him all the way until the police apprehended him as had been previously reported.
- The truck drove around the Christmas market once before it drove into it.

 

[Dalibor68]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-38370364

Glad an innocent man is free, worried the attacker is still at large.

Seems like a big failure of the police / intelligence agency, but we'll see. Hopefully the real suspect will be caught and soon.

Also seems weird how nobody saw the guy getting out of the truck and running away.

 

[Audioboxer]

Seems like a big failure of the police / intelligence agency, but we'll see. Hopefully the real suspect will be caught and soon.

They've followed up a lead, and within 24 hours of investigating the man is free. I wouldn't call it a big failure. There was eye witnesses who seen the attacker flee, they've probably done their best under duress to follow and/or report on looks. Pretty much normal procedures, which sadly don't always get the right person when there is hundreds if not thousands of people around the surrounding areas.

Wherever the attacker is now they'll probably be hunkered down somewhere and/or trying to flee over the border.

Also seems weird how nobody saw the guy getting out of the truck and running away.

They did, he was followed so far and then lost.

The attacker got out of the lorry and was followed by a witness who is then said to have lost him in the Tiergarten park.

A Pakistani man was later arrested at the Victory Monument on the basis of the description of the attacker given to police by the witness, Spiegel says.

 

[GlamFM]

Seems like a big failure of the police / intelligence agency, but we'll see. Hopefully the real suspect will be caught and soon.

Also seems weird how nobody saw the guy getting out of the truck and running away.

Hardly a big failure. He was pointed out by an eyewitness. They questioned him for 24 hrs and let him go.

 

[| Praxis |]

Hardly a big failure. He was pointed out by an eyewitness. They questioned him for 24 hrs and let him go.

Yeah, it's understandable in this chaotic situation.

 

[Kathian]

And now keeping things from the public/trying to pave over the any issues around refugees is going to bite them on the backside.

Hardly a big failure. He was pointed out by an eyewitness. They questioned him for 24 hrs and let him go.

This would be a reasonable position if they had others lined up. Seems they have fuck all.

I've been to this part of Berlin. Its busy even away from Christmas, how can they have nothing?

 

[Tugatrix]

Ok time to run full forensics on the truck, for sure the suspect must have some evidences behind, DNA and prints. Because if he don't I'm starting to suspect this terrie didn't want to be found or known his identity and that is odd on islamic terrorism

 

[Maintenance]

Not a single camera caught the terrorist?

 

[riotous]

Jesus; so whoever did this just ran off and hasn't been captured?

 

[| Praxis |]

And now keeping things from the public/trying to pave over the any issues around refugees is going to bite them on the backside.



This would be a reasonable position if they had others lined up. Seems they have fuck all.

I've been to this part of Berlin. Its busy even away from Christmas, how can they have nothing?

If this is a single individual, acting on their own there would be little to no opportunities for intelligence picking him up before the attack or help find him after and in the chaos of the moment I don't see why it's unreasonable for him to be able to escape immediately after.

It was different in Nice, France had suffered multiple attacks and were already in a state of emergency. They had armed police near pretty much every event. I'm sure Germany will do the same now and if this were to happen again the result might be different.

 

[Audioboxer]

Jesus; so whoever did this just ran off and hasn't been captured?

So far yes. If the person is undocumented and/or their details a lie it will make things even harder for the authorities to track him down as time goes on. The more hours pass the further he potentially gets away from the scene. DNA might not do much to help other than be useful for comparing with any suspects brought in. Which is in on itself very useful but for that to help you need to have suspects.

It is unsettling to say but I think if another 24 hours passes whoever did it will be off. Across the border and somewhere else. Pretty horrible for the families if whoever did it gets away. Hopefully CCTV in the area can piece together a better facial of the attacker, that may help if plastered nationally, and internationally, even if said person attempts to flee the country.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

So far yes. If the person is undocumented and/or their details a lie it will make things even harder for the authorities to track him down as time goes on. The more hours pass the further he potentially gets away from the scene. DNA might not do much to help other than be useful for comparing with any suspects brought in. Which is in on itself very useful but for that to help you need to have suspects.

It is unsettling to say but I think if another 24 hours passes whoever did it will be off. Across the border and somewhere else. Pretty horrible for the families if whoever did it gets away. Hopefully CCTV in the area can piece together a better facial of the attacker.

Or the closer he gets to the next one.

 

[superdeluxe]

Not a single camera caught the terrorist?

They mention in London, every street has CCTV. But in Berlin, there are not many CCTVs, so it could be problematic to find him

 

[Audioboxer]

Or the closer he gets to the next one.

As the poster above said heightened security will be everywhere. Even if it was his original plan to attack, flee and attack again chances are he'll come out dead next time. Although I sincerely hope whoever did it doesn't get another chance.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

As the poster above said heightened security will be everywhere. Even if it was his original plan to attack, flee and attack again chances are he'll come out dead next time. Although I sincerely hope whoever did it doesn't get another chance.

Agreed, it's just a scary thought that this animal is still out there. I am sure the German authorities will be able to prevent him from striking again though, but it's not going to prevent the possibility from entering people's minds.

 

[Maintenance]

They mention in London, every street has CCTV. But in Berlin, there are not many CCTVs, so it could be problematic to find him

Strange. I understand not having random people capture footage of him (shock, panic, etc) but I expected at least something from a store nearby.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Strange. I understand not having random people capturing footage of him (shock, panic, etc) but I expected at least something from a store nearby.

If the set up is anything like the christmas markets here in the US or what I experienced in France, they are just temporary buildings erected in public squares. There typically is not a lot of nearby commercial buildings.

 

[trembli0s]

Bad look for the Germans if this guy is on the lam for a while.

 

[Alx]

A bit of a break from the immigration debate going on. Interesting to see multiple countries around Europe are putting armed soldiers everywhere now at these events. Still don't know if that actually makes me feel safer or not, but better then nothing of course.

It's not exactly a new thing in France. There have been on and off military patrols since the 90s, when we had bomb attacks in the underground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigipirate

 

[Kinyou]

If this guy manages to slip away it will definitley make an argument for more cctv in cities.

 

[Audioboxer]

If the set up is anything like the christmas markets here in the US or what I experienced in France, they are just temporary buildings erected in public squares. There typically is not a lot of nearby commercial buildings.

If this guy manages to slip away it will definitley make an argument for more cctv in cities.

Yeah a lot of these Christmas market type events are in "pop up areas" where stalls and attractions are setup on an area of land. I mean there will be CCTV nearby, but if it's not caught the driver as he exits the vehicle you're cycling through CCTV of lots of footage nearby and almost trying to play spot the/guess the attacker. Police really need many eye witnesses to come forward and start correlating each of their descriptions. That would then help with what CCTV footage they might have from nearby.

If the attacker has also had his wits about him after the attack then he has probably tried to stay in underground/dark areas and go into hiding asap.

 

[spekkeh]

If the set up is anything like the christmas markets here in the US or what I experienced in France, they are just temporary buildings erected in public squares. There typically is not a lot of nearby commercial buildings.

It's a public square, but a very small one in a very touristic area. There should be shops close by with CCTV, but the Christmas stalls probably block the view.