• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Trump will win says prof. who's been mostly correct on presidential races since 1984

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I don't see it. Hillary is gonna lull the American public to sleep with all her facts, talking points, and defensiveness.

A good way to tell if someone is analyzing things in a detached and rational way, or projecting their preference onto other measures, is to ask them to acknowledge the relative strengths and weaknesses of each candidate. What would you say that Trump's weaknesses are, in the debate? What would you say that Hillary's strengths are?

I'll do the reverse in good faith. Trump's strengths are that he's an accomplished showman; that he can read a crowd very well and knows when to stay on course and when to go off course to maximize the energy level; that he's tapping in to a very real vein of anger using time-tested techniques to harness the anger; that he has virtually no record on major policy issues and so can't be pinned down (see the failure of attacks against his shifting position on Iraq to work--this is also an advantage Obama had against Clinton in 2008); and that he does not seem constrained by any of the conventional limits on decorum because winning is more important to him than playing by the rules.

Hillary's weaknesses are less obvious in a debate setting than a campaign settings. She is very meat and potatoes, she doesn't have a soaring inspirational inflection or tone or cadence, she has a pretty flat affect. In a debate, these matter a little less because of the format, but she rarely has excited and engaged rallies the way very charismatic candidates do. She has weaknesses in her record, in that it's easy to imagine a time-limited event distracting her into having to deal with Clinton Foundation, emails, Benghazi, "deplorables", or worse, personal baggage from her marriage. My sense is that debate prep would have focused on this. She also fights the broad perception that an angry woman comes off as shrill while an angry man comes off as passionate; so it is easy to imagine that if she's backed into a corner the wrong way that she comes off poorly.

I don't expect a floor-cleaning in the debates. I expect Trump to calm down a little bit from his stump approach. I expect the reviews to be "Trump was still Trump, but he's maybe showing some signs of growth" and "Hillary showed again that she's a serious thinker, but is that enough to convince people to vote for her" or "Hillary demonstrated why Trump is such a risk, but did she do enough to build a case for herself?" I see the worst case scenario for Trump to be an unexpected verbal slip, or a fact-check moment. I see the worst case for Hillary being pinned into one of her pain points and not being able to get back to issues.

The format of the debates is such that typically you want about 3-5 points on each question. An ideal answer does this: 1) What is my philosophical approach? 2) What is a concrete policy I have? 3) What is a fact or statistic I know? 4) What is a story I have? 5) Who are the people who agree with me?. Some answers are shorter, some longer. Mostly if it's a question on your weak points, you're not going to change anyone's mind, so the focus is mostly on mitigating damage and making sure that's not the moment people are talking about. Debates aren't really the period of time where the ownage and grand visions come out. They are pretty procedural, boring, and just about not screwing up.

Historically, Hillary has been a much better debater than a speech-giver (Obama was the reverse). I'd argue Trump has been a better speech-giver than a debater, although he held his own fairly well in most of the Republican debates. Of course, he never got to have the 1-on-1 experience, so there's some question as to whether he's equipped for that.
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
I know a lot of you have a "feeling" that Trump will win, but the facts say that he barely has a chance.
 

Joeku

Member
And that's great, besada! That's why you're a mod and I'm a piece of shit!

At face value, this is a Shenmue fan-esque level of persecution complex.

On-topic: There are countless predictive people and things (read: octopodes) that do this shit. They only come up when they have been right for long enough. I really get tired of hear of it in general, because the second they're wrong, you don't hear about them anymore and a new "super accurate future-reading lord" takes their place. Don't put much faith in any of this, either way.
 

Cindres

Vied for a tag related to cocks, so here it is.
The facts said Trump had no chance in the republican nomination, everybody thought this was one big joke. We all thought brexit had no chance of happening.

I think Trump's going to win it, he gets much more attention and a lot of people don't like Hillary for whatever reason, enough to look past all the fucking craziness of Trump becuase he's... different or something? God if I know.
 

avaya

Member
The facts said Trump had no chance in the republican nomination, everybody thought this was one big joke. We all thought brexit had no chance of happening.

I think Trump's going to win it, he gets much more attention and a lot of people don't like Hillary for whatever reason, enough to look past all the fucking craziness of Trump becuase he's... different or something? God if I know.

The "facts" actually said he had a very good chance of winning the nomination actually.

The facts also said Brexit was 50-50.

But do go on.
 
Yes... Compare the Democratic primaries to the Republican ones. The Democratic primaries had two candidates effectively... Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. And both were very different candidates from each other. Meanwhile the Republican primaries had like a shit ton of similar candidates with only Trump and Cruz standing out because they were the clear, obvious choice for particular factions of the Republican Party... Trump perfectly represented the Dixiecrats while Cruz perfectly represented the Religious Right. The fact that these two candidates each had a faction of the Republican Party fully behind them allowed them to be the top two choices with Trump and thus the Dixiecrats ultimately winning out.

Lol no, if you add up the far right votes for Trump and Cruz, you trounce the totals of the establishment types.

This reads like Silver's bad punditry from the primary. Remember how much crow he had to eat over that?
 

zero_suit

Member
The "facts" actually said he had a very good chance of winning the nomination actually.

The facts also said Brexit was 50-50.

But do go on.

Exactly. Plus, as you mentioned, the demographics are vastly different in the U.S. compared to Britain. People keep ignoring this for some reason.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Maybe this topic would have been different if people knew what Keys to the White House is?

It's not him, but his model that's making the predictions, and it's a little more impressive to see his model do well because there isn't that much input into the model on who's "obviously" going to win based on public polls or general sentiment.

It is a pretty well researched model that is pretty popular in social science. I would argue it's the best non-poll model we have, and gives some great insight into how the poll numbers generally get to where they are.

The bigger news here is that the writer thinks the model maybe isn't fit for this election thanks to Trump, which sounds like a copout, but it's probably true.
 

KHarvey16

Member
I do think a worldwide rise of right-wing populism is an important fact to consider, especially considering that you can see the very same trend in America right now.

But there is no reason to believe the polling in this country would miss that.
 

dankir

Member
FFS America don't let this happen!

michael-scott-no.gif
 

KHarvey16

Member
I hope so. Right now Hillary's lead is close to the margin of error so it doesn't need a massive polling error anyway.

If the election were today and the polls were exactly what they are now, a Trump victory would definitely mean a huge polling error. Individual polls have margins like that but when aggregated they are much smaller.
 

samn

Member
That's 32 years. Most of GAF hasn't even lived 2/3rds of that.



What was your prediction back in '84?

Why does it matter how long it was?

If i predict one coin flip in 1907 and then another coin flip in 2005 and get them both right I can say that I predicted coin flips correctly for 98 years
 

mo60

Member
The facts said Trump had no chance in the republican nomination, everybody thought this was one big joke. We all thought brexit had no chance of happening.

I think Trump's going to win it, he gets much more attention and a lot of people don't like Hillary for whatever reason, enough to look past all the fucking craziness of Trump becuase he's... different or something? God if I know.

The problem is trump has a hard ceiling in the polls which will make it hard for him to win this election. Unlike other elections where the conservative party/candiate had a hard ceiling like the recent federal election in Canada trump's hard ceiling in the polls is not enough to even lead in polls ever even though the conservative party in Canada lost the election despite leading in polls at points because the lack of vote spilting in that election(The left/moderates pretty much decided on one option and moved heavily towards that option to make that option destroy the CPC in that election). Pretty much trump's polling trend is really similar to the CPC's polling trend last year, but he can never seem to lead in polls because of hilary's polling wall.If everything goes right trump will lose as badly as harper did in the federal election in Canada last year.
 
Doesn't surprise me.

If Hillary wins at this point I will be surprised.

I'd rather have Hillary win, I mean either way the world is fucked so it doesn't really matter. But, at the very least she will have less of an effect on this country on the international stage than say, Trump.

Yup. And this silent majority, secret voter thing has been a talking point for awhile now. It's always cited as why the conservative will overcome the polls, and it hasn't shown up yet.

See, that is the thing, just wait for the final election days.

This man will win, because he is a problem endemic to the world right now.

The rise of the Alternative Right, and the emboldening of racists everywhere.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Doesn't surprise me.

If Hillary wins at this point I will be surprised.

I'd rather have Hillary win, I mean either way the world is fucked so it doesn't really matter. But, at the very least she will have less of an effect on this country on the international stage than say, Trump.



See, that is the thing, just wait for the final election days.

This man will win, because he is a problem endemic to the world right now.

The rise of the Alternative Right, and the emboldening of racists everywhere.

If he wins on Election Day there is no reason to suspect the polls will not have shown it. Right now they don't.
 
If he wins on Election Day there is no reason to suspect the polls will not have shown it. Right now they don't.

I remember the same things being said about Barack in 2008.

He still won.

EDIT: Also the point of something being secret, is to be hidden. The polls don't matter at this point, he will win. I'd almost stake my account on it.

Then again, why make bets on surefire wins?
 

Corto

Member
Well, if he was right since 1984 on every election winner that only makes it more probable to fail on this one.
 
I mean yes you're correct that he had 50/50 shot, but to say that?

It was going to be another animal but then I got pigs stuck in my head. You could flip a coin nine times and get that result, never mind several elections were incredibly predictable including this one no matter how hard the media is trying to push the idea that it's much closer than it actually is.

Trump ain't winning.
 

KHarvey16

Member
I remember the same things being said about Barack in 2008.

He still won.

EDIT: Also the point of something being secret, is to be hidden. The polls don't matter at this point, he will win. I'd almost stake my account on it.

Then again, why make bets on surefire wins?

Huh? I knew Obama would win in 2008 because the polls said he would. That's a really bad example.
 

Betty

Banned
If he wins on Election Day there is no reason to suspect the polls will not have shown it. Right now they don't.

The polls have been getting closer and closer, ever since the convention Hillary has lost a lot of her lead.

If the trend in the polls continues as it does then there's bound to be points where Clinton is trailing eventually.
 
Huh? I knew Obama would win in 2008 because the polls said he would. That's a really bad example.

Uh, I remember the polls saying he was going to lose or had very little chance of winning.

Mind you, I try to stay out of politics because they are a tool of the machine of oppression.
 

KHarvey16

Member
The polls have been getting closer and closer, ever since the convention Hillary has lost a lot of her lead.

If the trend in the polls continues as it does then there's bound to be points where Clinton is trailing eventually.

That's a huge if in there.
 

Corto

Member
Uh, I remember the polls saying he was going to lose or had very little chance of winning.

Mind you, I try to stay out of politics because they are a tool of the machine of oppression.

"Staying out of politics" doesn't prevent you from suffering the effects of said tool of the machine of oppression.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Uh, I remember the polls saying he was going to lose or had very little chance of winning.

Mind you, I try to stay out of politics because they are a tool of the machine of oppression.

Obama was very much predicted to win. We saw the same "but the ashamed secret conservatives" arguments.
 
"Staying out of politics" doesn't prevent you from suffering the effects of said tool of the machine of oppression.

Yes, but it washes my hands and conscience.

I can sleep peacefully at night knowing that I did not add to the subjugation, oppression, and misery of my fellow man.

All that said, I still hope that Hillary ends up winning I'm just not confident in it at all.

That said, I mean the probability is there for this guy's model to be wrong, but with the current state of world and US politics.... Things don't look good.

Obama was very much predicted to win. We saw the same "but the ashamed secret conservatives" arguments.

Nope. Obama was always ahead in the polls..

Huh. Did some googling.

Well, fuck a doodle doo I made a terrible comparison. My memory is apparently failing me. :p
 

Darkgran

Member
Yes, but it washes my hands and conscience.

I can sleep peacefully at night knowing that I did not add to the subjugation, oppression, and misery of my fellow man.

All that said, I still hope that Hillary ends up winning I'm just not confident in it at all.

That said, I mean the probability is there for this guy's model to be wrong, but with the current state of world and US politics.... Things don't look good.

Show me a path Trump has to victory.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Yes, but it washes my hands and conscience.

I can sleep peacefully at night knowing that I did not add to the subjugation, oppression, and misery of my fellow man.

All that said, I still hope that Hillary ends up winning I'm just not confident in it at all.

That said, I mean the probability is there for this guy's model to be wrong, but with the current state of world and US politics.... Things don't look good.

So you pay your taxes but then shirk your responsibility to try and have it spent on things that don't subjugate or oppress.

This "model" stands in stark contradiction with actual data at the moment.
 

Otnopolit

Member
Show me a path Trump has to victory.

FiveThirtyEight has Hillary's lead now in the polling margin of error. This, on top of how Trump tends to dominate speaking time in debates (despite being braindead on the issues, for the most part) has me really anxious to see how tomorrow turns out.
 
Obama was very much predicted to win. We saw the same "but the ashamed secret conservatives" arguments.

This is probably the only election I would put stock into the"ashamed secret conservatives". Openly supporting Trump can catch a lot of flack.


Show me a path Trump has to victory.

I don't know how, other than to point that the rise of Alternative right populism, his continued success with the public despite declining poll numbers, and the way the world is right now.

I find the comparisons to Hitler and Pre-WW2 Germany kind of apt, Trump knows how to speak to the ignorant and the alt right that exist here in this country, there is a lot of poor, disillusioned people here in this country willing to believe and point fingers at anything to try and find a way to justify their way of life being disrupted, changed, or in the case of many jobs, obsolete due to the prosperity of automation and technology changing the way our lives work, the way we do business.


While we aren't nearly as fucked as PreWW2 Germany after Versailles, we do have a lot of debt, we have a lot of poverty. We have no shortage of people looking for answers as to why everything sucks.

He doesn't need a path when it has already been paved.

I hope to fuck that Hillary wins, in fact I will livestream myself drinking for 24 hours straight if she wins and I have the money for the booze.
Well, more like a few hours of drinking. I'm not 21 anymore.

So you pay your taxes but then shirk your responsibility to try and have it spent on things that don't subjugate or oppress.

This "model" stands in stark contradiction with actual data at the moment.

What do my taxes(I don't have any at the moment because I'm unemployed and broke), have to do with that though? I am legitimately wondering.

Or were you making some kind of joke? I paid my taxes when I worked, yes, because I do not want to go to jail for tax evasion.
 

Zombine

Banned
I have voted in the past two elections and each time I voted for the guy who won. I will be voting for Hillary this year.

Someone write an article about me.
 

Cocaloch

Member
Well, if he was right since 1984 on every election winner that only makes it more probable to fail on this one.

That's not how anything works.

So you pay your taxes but then shirk your responsibility to try and have it spent on things that don't subjugate or oppress.

This "model" stands in stark contradiction with actual data at the moment.

What's up with the scare quotes? It's absolutely a historical model.
 

KHarvey16

Member
This is probably the only election I would put stock into the"ashamed secret conservatives". Openly supporting Trump can catch a lot of flack.

That's what people said last time. And the time before that. "It's different! I know the polls were right last time, but this time I promise!" There is never more than a gut feeling.

What do my taxes(I don't have any at the moment because I'm unemployed and broke), have to do with that though? I am legitimately wondering.

Or were you making some kind of joke? I paid my taxes when I worked, yes, because I do not want to go to jail for tax evasion.

Your taxes fund all of those things you don't want to contribute to by voting. They will still get your money (even if you're unemployed, because there are more taxes than just income taxes) but you just won't take on your responsibility to try and influence how they use it. So you essentially give them all the tools they need to perform these acts with your money and in your name and make no attempt whatsoever to try and stop them. You can't actually care about those things that much.
 
That's what people said last time. And the time before that. "It's different! I know the polls were right last time, but this time I promise!" There is never more than a gut feeling.



Your taxes fund all of those things you don't want to contribute to by voting. They will still get your money (even if you're unemployed, because there are more taxes than just income taxes) but you just won't take on your responsibility to try and influence how they use it. So you essentially give them all the tools they need to perform these acts with your money and in your name and make no attempt whatsoever to try and stop them. You can't actually care about those things that much.

Or you can care about those things, while acknowledging how fruitless it is to fight at this point.

I've done what I can to try to influence through activism of my own, how that money gets spent. But you know what? I am only one person, and I can only change so much.

Especially when confronted by people who have more time, money, and reach than I ever will.

It is useless to try to fight the machine, unless we all band together to fight it.

Which will never happen.

We lost our chance at fighting it before I or you were even born.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Or you can care about those things, while acknowledging how fruitless it is to fight at this point.

I've done what I can to try to influence through activism of my own, how that money gets spent. But you know what? I am only one person, and I can only change so much.

Especially when confronted by people who have more time, money, and reach than I ever will.

It is useless to try to fight the machine, unless we all band together to fight it.

Which will never happen.

We lost our chance at fighting it before I or you were even born.

Well whatever you do don't inconvenience yourself too much by actually trying and just casting a ballot. Like in the midterms, when it really matters.

But you wouldn't know because you don't follow politics.
 
Well whatever you do don't inconvenience yourself too much by actually trying and just casting a ballot. Like in the midterms, when it really matters.

But you wouldn't know because you don't follow politics.

Not following politics, and not participating are two different things.

I follow indeed, I choose not to participate.

By participating I give them more power, by not participating I add nothing.

Essentially, I don't add to the machine.

People overestimate the power of one vote, of one person, the cruel reality is that we have very little power at all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom