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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin

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R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
This country is fucked if this is all the opposition can muster. ISIS can never be reasoned with so the only solution to them are many, many bullets. The left is tired of this ISIS shit now, what makes Smith think they want to talk to them? The only way forward is to destroy the extremists and free those people living under them.
 
B

Baybars

Banned
CyclopsRock said:
Assad is a monster, but at least he's a rational state actor, for the most part. If you can make the alternative to whatever concessions and demands you're making worse than the concessions and demands, he'll bow (we just haven't done that). With Isil, any such worsening of conditions would make no difference, given their religious fervour and desire to literally die in the name of their faith. There are no circumstances in which reliable peace can be brought about so long as they're still alive (unlike Assad).



Yes. So?
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Rational state actor? You mean the guy who nouri al maliki accused of sending suicide bombers into iraq when american troops were present? The guy who okayed a campaign of ethnic cleansing against 70% percent of the population culminating in a sarin gas attack on suburb in his own capital? That guy? Please The only concession assad is willing to accept is to burn the entire country so his mafia family remains in power

As for isis, well unless you can prove the turks and the saudis are busy funding a group that has conducted terror runs in their own capitals, i suggest you keep up with the news
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
Baybars said:
Rational state actor? You mean the guy who nouri al maliki accused of sending suicide bombers into iraq when american troops were present? The guy who okayed a campaign of ethnic cleansing against 70% percent of the population culminating in a sarin gas attack on suburb in his own capital? That guy? Please The only concession assad is willing to accept is to burn the entire country so his mafia family remains in power

As for isis, well unless you can prove the turks and the saudis are busy funding a group that has conducted terror runs in their own capitals, i suggest you keep up with the news
Click to expand...

So essentially the typical Middle Eastern dictator then. He's still clearly the lesser evil to the extremist groups fighting against him. Despite all the terrible things he has done, his rule still brought relative peace and stability to the country. It's nice to have ideals that democracy can be so easily created and the power vacuum filled easily, but it's hard to argue that when Libya is now a failed state.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
All this leadership election has shown is that there is no competent alternative to Corbyn. The party is totally doomed.
 
B

Baybars

Banned
Royal_Phalanx said:
So essentially the typical Middle Eastern dictator then. He's still clearly the lesser evil to the extremist groups fighting against him. Despite all the terrible things he has done, his rule still brought relative peace and stability to the country. It's nice to have ideals that democracy can be so easily created and the power vacuum filled easily, but it's hard to argue that when Libya is now a failed state.
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The lesser evil you say? I suggest you open a excel spreadsheet. Put in the victims of assad next to the victims of the extremist groups who fight him and see who comes out of top.

You haven't lived in the middle east much less syria. You don't know what's it like to live under a bathist dictatorship. A mafia family who massacred thousands in hama in the 80s. You talk about libya. I swear syrians living in syria would take libya any day of the week right now. 4000 dead compared to half a million death. Do you hear the word libyan refugees drowning in the seas of the agean sea?

Have you ever seen an extremist group do this to a 13 year old kid?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb

There is a reason syrians revolted in 2011. And there is a reason why assad the lesser of the two evils brought iranians, lebanese, iraqis,afghans, pakistanis and russians from around the world to fight for him
 
J

Jackpot

Banned
Royal_Phalanx said:
He's still clearly the lesser evil to the extremist groups fighting against him.
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Seen this comment so many times. You've fallen for ISIS propaganda. More worried about the individuals crudely beheaded on video than the bombers taking out entire hospitals off-screen. ISIS wishes it had could inflict the death toll Assad has.
 
R

RetroDLC

Foundations of Burden
If I was in the audience watching Owen Smith say that ISIS should join peace talks, I would have stood up and proclaimed with no hesitation...

41d.png


The Conservatives just found their ammunition that would tank Smith if he ever had a chance to lead Labour in the first place.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Baybars said:
Rational state actor? You mean the guy who nouri al maliki accused of sending suicide bombers into iraq when american troops were present? The guy who okayed a campaign of ethnic cleansing against 70% percent of the population culminating in a sarin gas attack on suburb in his own capital? That guy? Please The only concession assad is willing to accept is to burn the entire country so his mafia family remains in power.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand what "rational state actor" means. It doesn't mean "jolly nice guy" or "wonderful ally". The Nazi's were rational state actors. That's why, when their number was up, the war ended without having to murder everyone with a stiff arm and funny walk. I don't know where that point is with Assad's Syria, but it seems obvious to me that such a point exists, we simply don't have the will (or possibly the means) to arrive at it. This isn't the case with Isil, which is what differentiates them.

As for isis, well unless you can prove the turks and the saudis are busy funding a group that has conducted terror runs in their own capitals, i suggest you keep up with the news
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This really wasn't the point of what I was saying. Aside from anything, my references to Turkey were about the strong belief of border guards turning a blind eye to the smuggling of Oil over the border, sold by ISIS and Saudi Arabia referring to the potential funding via private donations in Saudi Arabia - but the specifics weren't really the point. The point was that ISIS can't print its own money, and so long as it requires outside participants in its economy then these are the people (whoever they are, whether they include Turkey and Saudi or not) are the people we need to be negotiating with, not ISIS themselves.
 
B

Baybars

Banned
CyclopsRock said:
I don't think you understand what "rational state actor" means. It doesn't mean "jolly nice guy" or "wonderful ally". The Nazi's were rational state actors. That's why, when their number was up, the war ended without having to murder everyone with a stiff arm and funny walk. I don't know where that point is with Assad's Syria, but it seems obvious to me that such a point exists, we simply don't have the will (or possibly the means) to arrive at it. This isn't the case with Isil, which is what differentiates them.



This really wasn't the point of what I was saying. Aside from anything, my references to Turkey were about the strong belief of border guards turning a blind eye to the smuggling of Oil over the border, sold by ISIS and Saudi Arabia referring to the potential funding via private donations in Saudi Arabia - but the specifics weren't really the point. The point was that ISIS can't print its own money, and so long as it requires outside participants in its economy then these are the people (whoever they are, whether they include Turkey and Saudi or not) are the people we need to be negotiating with, not ISIS themselves.
Click to expand...

The up moment in syria was 2013 when assad used chemical weapons on women and children in Ghouta. If the leader of the free world was someone other than barack obama who had an eye on making a deal with the iranian regime which funds assad's war machine, america would have taken assad and his henchman back to the stone age. Alas, obama sold a nation of 22 million syrians and a glorious country filled with history to the iranians.

As for isis, the turks yes did turn a blind eye to their border because these guys was so desperate to take assad down they didnt bother looking who was doing what. When the realised that not every one was a humanitarian doctor, or NGO but foreign fighter hoping to join ISIS, then the turks wised up. By then it was too late. As for the donations, saudi private donations are divided into two. One for the aid agencies and one for fighting groups. The only extremist fighting group where private donations has been a boon for was Jabhat al nusra but that was during the early years of 2013. Once the kingdom blacklisted the group it was finished.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Royal_Phalanx said:
This country is fucked if this is all the opposition can muster. ISIS can never be reasoned with so the only solution to them are many, many bullets. The left is tired of this ISIS shit now, what makes Smith think they want to talk to them? The only way forward is to destroy the extremists and free those people living under them.
Click to expand...

At the end of the day, you will have to negotiate. The only way you can avoid negotiating is to either kill every last person or to be in a position you can dictate commands entirely. The latter will force IS operatives to go guerilla and wage an underground war rather than admit defeat, and the latter is not always possible against an irrational actor.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
That said, this is unfortunately one of those many, many issues where the right thing to do is not exactly the popular thing to do, and Smith should have shut it if he had any common sense.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
If anyone hasn't seen Finkelstein's column in The Times today (paywall and that), it does a very, very convincing job of explaining why a moderate-split new Labour party would be fucked, electorally.

Baybars said:
The up moment in syria was 2013 when assad used chemical weapons on women and children in Ghouta. If the leader of the free world was someone other than barack obama who had an eye on making a deal with the iranian regime which funds assad's war machine, america would have taken assad and his henchman back to the stone age. Alas, obama sold a nation of 22 million syrians and a glorious country filled with history to the iranians.

As for isis, the turks yes did turn a blind eye to their border because these guys was so desperate to take assad down they didnt bother looking who was doing what. When the realised that not every one was a humanitarian doctor, or NGO but foreign fighter hoping to join ISIS, then the turks wised up. By then it was too late. As for the donations, saudi private donations are divided into two. One for the aid agencies and one for fighting groups. The only extremist fighting group where private donations has been a boon for was Jabhat al nusra but that was during the early years of 2013. Once the kingdom blacklisted the group it was finished.
Click to expand...

The rights and wrongs of this are really not something that's too relevant to a thread about Corbyn. I was responding directly to the assertions made by Owen, where as this goes pretty significantly into a different topic.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Baybars said:
If the leader of the free world was someone other than barack obama who had an eye on making a deal with the iranian regime which funds assad's war machine, america would have taken assad and his henchman back to the stone age. Alas, obama sold a nation of 22 million syrians and a glorious country filled with history to the iranians..
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Oh please. The only USA leader who would have gone into Syria was *maybe* George W Bush, and even he would have balked. No-one would have gone into Syria - it was an impenetrable mire already back then, and had russia and other powers heavily involved. It was not something that you could easily deal with, and no western country was going to sacrifice hundreds and thousands of lives to interfere in a civil war where one side was a death cult and the other a bunch of murderous thugs who rank alongside the Nazi's.
 
M

Maledict

Member
CyclopsRock said:
If anyone hasn't seen Finkelstein's column in The Times today (paywall and that), it does a very, very convincing job of explaining why a moderate-split new Labour party would be fucked, electorally.
Click to expand...

Ca't read the column but yes - first past the post, and the way Labours votes and seats are distributed makes any split doom for all involved. The UK simply doesn't have the same population demographics that makes Obama's coalition work in the USA - without the white, working class vote they are unelectable and a split won't help that.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CyclopsRock said:
If anyone hasn't seen Finkelstein's column in The Times today (paywall and that), it does a very, very convincing job of explaining why a moderate-split new Labour party would be fucked, electorally.
Click to expand...

He just ripped off all my GAF posts. :(
 
U

ultratruman

Banned
Owen Smith: My view is that ultimately all solutions to these crises, these sorts of international crises, do come about through dialogue. So eventually if were to try and solve this all of the actors have to be involved. But at the moment Isil are clearly not interested in negotiating. At some point for us to resolve this we will need to get people around the table.
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Titanic-Lights-Out.gif
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Maledict said:
Ca't read the column but yes - first past the post, and the way Labours votes and seats are distributed makes any split doom for all involved. The UK simply doesn't have the same population demographics that makes Obama's coalition work in the USA - without the white, working class vote they are unelectable and a split won't help that.
Click to expand...

It's not really even based on technicalities like FPTP and vote distribution. It's more on the basis that... well, let me C + P:

Danny said:
In his history of the Labour Party, Speak for Britain!, Martin Pugh argues convincingly that liberalism has always been only one strand of Labour, and not its most important one. From its earliest days a very large part of the party has been conservative on constitutional questions, culturally sentimental and nostalgic, cautious on issues of individual freedom, opposed to mass immigration, monarchist, nationalist, patriotic and militaristic.

.......

What is the electoral base of a straightforwardly liberal party? Labour voters least likely to be impressed by Corbyn are most likely to be hawkish on defence, tough on immigration and sympathetic to Brexit. There will be middle-class dissidents too, but smaller in number because many of those already vote Conservative and are likely to carry on doing so.

In the absence of a large Conservative defection, a liberal Labour party would struggle. If a liberal party decided, for instance, to be the party against Brexit and for free movement, how would it hold seats in the north, or indeed outside London?


What then of the prospects of a split that created a more traditional Labour party? Owen’s experience shows how hard it would be to make that succeed. It would require a very large proportion of Labour MPs to go with it, and to agree to a populist platform that many of them are nervous about. And even then it might struggle to win northern seats where party tradition is strong. One of the problems with traditionalist voters is that they are, well, traditionalist.
Click to expand...

Edit: NB, by "Owen" he means SDP founder David Owen.
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
CyclopsRock said:
It's not really even based on technicalities like FPTP and vote distribution. It's more on the basis that... well, let me C + P:



Edit: NB, by "Owen" he means SDP founder David Owen.
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Yep, by and large this country simply isn't liberal enough. The working classes are very much 'economically left, socially right'.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
J

Jackpot

Banned
Hazzuh said:
In the latest "Corbyn is unelectable" news, Corbyn refuses to say he would honour article 5 of NATO



Obviously shouldn't be too surprising given this is what Corbyn always believed but it is yet another example of his total inability to compromise in order to win a bloody election.

Might deserve a new thread? I'm sure some americans would enjoy the comparison with Trump.
Click to expand...

Go for it. Just make sure to have the actual quote to hand instead of a tweet.
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
Hazzuh said:
In the latest "Corbyn is unelectable" news, Corbyn refuses to say he would honour article 5 of NATO



Obviously shouldn't be too surprising given this is what Corbyn always believed but it is yet another example of his total inability to compromise in order to win a bloody election.

Might deserve a new thread? I'm sure some americans would enjoy the comparison with Trump.
Click to expand...

The funny thing is that Corbyn saying that plays right into the Tory line of him being a threat to national security.

Good work, Jeremy. Good work.
 
C

Colin.

Member
A tweet with no quote as a source for news, very good. So you have Corbyn who's apparently a threat to national security, yet we have a PM that without hesitation said that she would be prepared to launch a nuclear strike. Okay then..
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
Colin. said:
You know you're clutching at straws when you're using a tweet with no quote as a source for news lol. So you have Corbyn who's apparently a threat to national security, yet we have a PM that without hesitation said that she would be prepared to launch a nuclear strike. Okay then..
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It was literally just a journalist quoting what Corbyn said at a leadership husting, you can see the video here if you want. Not sure why you are reacting with such incredulity when this is consistent with what Corbyn has believed since at least the 80s.
 
C

Colin.

Member
Hazzuh said:
It was literally just a journalist quoting what Corbyn said at a leadership husting, you can see the video here if you want.
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Thanks! I did, and I can see how something like this could be used and spun quite easily. But I see a Russian invasion of a NATO member being highly unlikely. And the possibility of responding with military action would depend on the circumstances surrounding it as well I feel.
 
Q

Quixzlizx

Member
Colin. said:
Thanks! I did, and I can see how something like this could be used and spun quite easily. But I see a Russian invasion of a NATO member being highly unlikely. And the possibility of responding with military action would depend on the circumstances surrounding it as well I feel.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is you want the UK to withdraw from NATO, since defending an invaded member isn't conditional for a NATO member.

I'm guessing withdrawing from NATO isn't an election-winning policy.

kirblar said:
If Ukraine joins NATO this becomes a big deal and not some hypothetical.
Click to expand...

But this isn't happening anytime soon.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Colin. said:
Thanks! I did, and I can see how something like this could be used and spun quite easily. But I see a Russian invasion of a NATO member being highly unlikely. And the possibility of responding with military action would depend on the circumstances surrounding it as well I feel.
Click to expand...
If Ukraine joins NATO this becomes a big deal and not some hypothetical.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Royal_Phalanx said:
So essentially the typical Middle Eastern dictator then. He's still clearly the lesser evil to the extremist groups fighting against him. Despite all the terrible things he has done, his rule still brought relative peace and stability to the country. It's nice to have ideals that democracy can be so easily created and the power vacuum filled easily, but it's hard to argue that when Libya is now a failed state.
Click to expand...

I mean, his rule pretty definitionally didn't bring peace or stability? His rule brought ISIS; the attraction of jihadist groups is at least partially down to rule by sectarian dictators. If his rule had brought peace and stability we wouldn't be in this position to begin with.
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
While 'Corbyn lying about trains' is a hilarious scandal truly representative of British politics, it is interesting for a man who's image is based on trust and not-spin, to be uh, caught in spin.
 
S

StayDead

Member
Royal_Phalanx said:
This country is fucked if this is all the opposition can muster. ISIS can never be reasoned with so the only solution to them are many, many bullets. The left is tired of this ISIS shit now, what makes Smith think they want to talk to them? The only way forward is to destroy the extremists and free those people living under them.
Click to expand...

That's never going to work.

You kill a terrorist and someone else takes their place. This is exactly what happened in Iraq and is still happening in Palestine. ISIS never would've gained as much traction if we hadn't have marched into Iraq and ended up killing a lot of innocent people.

A kid sees their family member blown up or killed either rightfully or wrongfully and it makes them want to take up the mantle and fight back. Violence is a never ending cycle.
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
Memento Mori said:
True this may be optimistic thinking but if Theresa May increases her majority even Corbyn supporters must realise it isn't working.
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No you see because then it's the red Tories and the biased media that were the problem

Also because #traingate is obviously the thing that matters, here's him sitting in an unreserved seat on that train

Cqi_VNtXgAABTdW.jpg:large
Cqi_WxXWgAElry2.jpg:large
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SCANDAL

Bafflingly his team are standing by the story despite say, CCTV being there

But Corbyn’s team appear to be sticking to the original story. Asked if is was true that the train wasn’t full, a spokesperson for Corbyn’s campaign told BuzzFeed News: “That’s a lie. It was full and he gave his seat up so a woman could sit down. Others were sat in the aisles too!”
Click to expand...
https://www.buzzfeed.com/marielecon...ain-wasnt-full?utm_term=.bjnQdXMR2#.lyAdYyD7x

something something it's the coverup that gets you
 
F

Faddy

Banned
JonathanEx said:
No you see because then it's the red Tories and the biased media that were the problem

Also because #traingate is obviously the thing that matters, here's him sitting in an unreserved seat on that train



SCANDAL

Bafflingly his team are standing by the story despite say, CCTV being there


https://www.buzzfeed.com/marielecon...ain-wasnt-full?utm_term=.bjnQdXMR2#.lyAdYyD7x

something something it's the coverup that gets you
Click to expand...

That CCTV is inconclusive. The large seats on those trains make it impossible to see people who may be short or slumped down.

Edit: oh that is him sitting down?

Is there a time stamp
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
I love that they must have been sitting around at Virgin saying "So, I checked it out and he's lying... shall we... say something?" And clearly the answer was "Yes, skewer the prick".
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
Faddy said:
That CCTV is inconclusive. The large seats on those trains make it impossible to see people who may be short or slumped down.
Click to expand...

But after the filming of the video, he apparently goes back and sits in a seat, where he apparently stays for the rest of the journey. I think there's timestamps on it.
 
B

Bony Manifesto

Member
Huw_Dawson said:
There's a rumour that he attended a party meeting of Labour's Liverpool Riverside local party recently and that he's attempting to get himself as the PPC for it when Rotherham wins the Metro Mayor position.

Labour is toast!
Click to expand...

Can they tell him to go fuck himself, or would that alienate Corbyn's core supporters? I don't actually know what the far-left side of the Labour Party feels about Galloway.
 
R

Real Hero

Member
I'd say it's mixed, there crossover but he's said enough horrible stuff like against the Labour MP in Bradford that he's probably still disliked my many of on the left. Still he's slimy and good at saying what he knows people want to hear so I can totally seeing him winning the corbyn crowd over.
 
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