• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

kitch9

Banned
Captain of a sinking ship. What a deluded fool.

Just so you know, Labour will cut to, only they won't say what, and they've decided that if they keep banging the we'll cut VAT by 2p drum we'll all get the horn and vote for them.

Until the two bumbling idiots actually spell out their plans in detail, people saying that Labour have all the answers are just as clueless as they are.
 
I wasn't talking about labour or even the economy really. I'm just shocked about how Clegg is leading the Lib Dems off a cliff to their death.
 

Yen

Member
Just so you know, Labour will cut to, only they won't say what, and they've decided that if they keep banging the we'll cut VAT by 2p drum we'll all get the horn and vote for them.

Until the two bumbling idiots actually spell out their plans in detail, people saying that Labour have all the answers are just as clueless as they are.

WAYNE ROONEY (footy-gaf meme for you there)
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I rather preferred the NHS 'could get worse from 2013' headline to start the day on the right note.

"It may seem like we're approaching total shit-town, but maybe its not as bad as we think!!!" It is. "But..." Nope.
 
So it seems that over half the 0.7% contraction has been re-estimated away, and that the data suggests that, were it not for the Jubilee weekend, it would have grown ever so slightly. For me, aside from anything, this just reinforces that GDP is a pretty awful measure of growth. It has its uses for absolute comparisons between countries, but the reality is that any system you use to determine growth that can be tweaked by the government borrowing more or less money from tomorrow's generation is fatally flawed.
 
CHEEZMO™;42542447 said:
What do you chaps think of all this Abu Hamza business?

I won't be sad to see him gone. odious character and it annoys me it's taken so long to extradite him. even now he won't be extradited until the new appeal is heard. ugh. :/

democracy and all that but the man is a known antagonist who holds very extreme views and did nothing but create tensions and splinter communities.
 

Bo-Locks

Member
I rather preferred the NHS 'could get worse from 2013' headline to start the day on the right note.

"It may seem like we're approaching total shit-town, but maybe its not as bad as we think!!!" It is. "But..." Nope.

The Tories and Dave in particular should really be getting railed for downright lying about the NHS, much in the same manner that Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems have been (rightfully) shamed and crucified about their blatant lies and selling out over student fees. Remember Dave falling over himself, promising to ring fence health spending from the inevitable cuts, and that the NHS would not be touched? Yeah, GTFO, Dave. Cutting the NHS under the guise of unprecedented "efficiency savings" is complete and utter bullshit. I'm not opposed to change, and there are many areas, which the NHS needs to improve upon, but these cuts are motivated purely by financial reasons, at their core they're not about improving patient care. Nobody in government has the balls to just admit this simple truth, and so we're spoon-fed this bullshit about "improving care in the community", and "taking power away from bureaucrats", wrapped up in these reforms that absolutely no one (not even the fuckers who dreamt it up, let alone the poor bastards who will have to actually work under it) understands or even wants in the first place. It's absurd.

And now we have the Earth-shattering news that care will probably worsen as the cuts bite. What is happening to the NHS is a travesty, and it's an even bigger travesty that governments can get away with blatantly lying to the electorate, only to fuck us over a few months down the line, and yet we just continue to take it.
 

nib95

Banned
The Tories and Dave in particular should really be getting railed for downright lying about the NHS, much in the same manner that Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems have been (rightfully) shamed and crucified about their blatant lies and selling out over student fees. Remember Dave falling over himself, promising to ring fence health spending from the inevitable cuts, and that the NHS would not be touched? Yeah, GTFO, Dave. Cutting the NHS under the guise of unprecedented "efficiency savings" is complete and utter bullshit. I'm not opposed to change, and there are many areas, which the NHS needs to improve upon, but these cuts are motivated purely by financial reasons, at their core they're not about improving patient care. Nobody in government has the balls to just admit this simple truth, and so we're spoon-fed this bullshit about "improving care in the community", and "taking power away from bureaucrats", wrapped up in these reforms that absolutely no one (not even the fuckers who dreamt it up, let alone the poor bastards who will have to actually work under it) understands or even wants in the first place. It's absurd.

And now we have the Earth-shattering news that care will probably worsen as the cuts bite. What is happening to the NHS is a travesty, and it's an even bigger travesty that governments can get away with blatantly lying to the electorate, only to fuck us over a few months down the line, and yet we just continue to take it.

Completely agree. Sad to see the Tories try to destroy one of the few things this country could be proud of, even with the issues it had or has. Appallingly really.
 
what's the ultimate goal with the nhs? do they want to abolish and adopt a us style healthcare service? would they be able to do that in two years? is that something they hope to achieve if re-elected?
 

Yen

Member
The reason the LibDems were savaged over tuition fees much worse than the Tories with any of their policies is because we expect the Tories to be lying, odious scumbags.
 
what's the ultimate goal with the nhs? do they want to abolish and adopt a us style healthcare service? would they be able to do that in two years? is that something they hope to achieve if re-elected?
Privatise the profits, socialise the risk. Blame someone else when things go wrong. You'd be surprised how rapid it is scaling up. The private companies are very keen to prove how competent they are in the honey moon period.
 

dalyr95

Member
Wow, so much hate on CyclopsRock, even though he speaketh the truth.

For starters, government services will always be more inefficient than private sector.

Government services cannot go bankrupt, therefore there is no incentive for cost control
Government services do not need to raise capital, therefore do not need to judge is there a market/demand for this project

Some people mentioned the DVLA making profits;
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dvla_profits
£22mil for the fiscal year 07-08
So compared to;
Welfare: £190bill
Health: £119bil
500px-UKExpenditure.svg.png



So where do people think the Govt. gets the £687000000000 it spends every year, or £11450 per man, woman and child per year?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/apr/25/uk-public-spending-1963

1,000,000,000 (billion) x 687 = 687000000000
687000000000 / 60mil (population) = 11450

1,000,000,000 (billion) x 687 = 687000000000
687000000000 / 38mil (working population) = 18078.95
(http://goo.gl/cGD2j)


High healthcare spending does not equal a good healthcare system;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jun/30/healthcare-spending-world-country
The US has the highest health spending in the world - equivalent to 17.9% of its gross domestic product (GDP), or $8,362 per person. And it's not all private - government spending is at $4,437 per person, only behind Luxembourg, Monaco and Norway

As for people wanting a Nordic-esque system;
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...ets-give-polly-toynbee-the-britain-she-wants/

We should copy the Finnish education system, for example – it is, after all, the number one such system in the world. There they divide into academic and vocational at 16 and there's none of this nonsense that all must go to university – that's reserved for the small fraction that are indeed academic. Or the Swedish system of education vouchers. Parents decide on the school they want children to go to and the local council stumps up the fees – whether it's a public or private school.
Like Michael Gove's free schools and proposed O-levels

From all of them we'll take the abolition of the national minimum wage, for none of the EU Nordics has one.

Sweden has also abolished inheritance tax, gift tax and the wealth tax. Those sound like three excellent ideas to copy.

We'll also need to decentralise, even dismantle, the National Health Service, for none of the Nordics has anything like it. Instead, it's local taxation paying for local care in all instances: a real postcode lottery.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
A rather depressing story of one of my wife's friends forced out of the UK for not earning enough due to recent changes in immigration law.


Andrew Wilbur, originally from California, has been married to a Scottish woman for six years but now no longer meets the criteria to stay here as their household income in the past year did not reach £18,600.

The income threshold was only introduced on marriage visa applications in July this year as part of a Government crackdown on immigration and sham marriages.

The move was aimed at ensuring spouses are able to support themselves while in the UK, but Mr Wilbur claims it is also hitting non-criminal, hard-working couples who simply have not earned enough.

The 32-year-old was due to start work at the university on a temporary basis, but now he and his wife, Laura Francescangeli, 34, have booked flights out of the country ahead of his student visa expiring on October 7.

Mr Wilbur, who has a PhD in human geography from Glasgow University, said: "I never realised I wasn't going to be able to stay here.

"It's been a shock, especially in light of being offered a job – basically that was my financial situation sorted for the short term.

"We've booked a flight to Italy on October 2. Laura's parents live there and I'm going to help out her family a little bit and basically buy some time to apply for other jobs.

"Because of my situation, I'm not going to be looking at jobs in the UK. I'll probably have to look in the US or somewhere else in Europe."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ced-out-of-uk-for-not-earning-enough.19001472
 

kitch9

Banned
A rather depressing story of one of my wife's friends forced out of the UK for not earning enough due to recent changes in immigration law.




http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ced-out-of-uk-for-not-earning-enough.19001472

Question: Have you ever tried to emigrate?

Most countries you would want to emigrate have set strict criteria and if you don't match them you are out, simple as that.

The only reason you are hearing stories such as this is because we've actually decided to do the same as everyone else.

The reason the LibDems were savaged over tuition fees much worse than the Tories with any of their policies is because we expect the Tories to be lying, odious scumbags.

Ok, what's your opinion on Labour using wording that suggests they won't really cut when they will? If their plan doesn't work, their cuts will end up being more savage than anyone would have dreamed of. Its tough to choose between which is the lesser of two evils at the minute.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Wow, so much hate on CyclopsRock, even though he speaketh the truth.

For starters, government services will always be more inefficient than private sector

The punchline to this joke is that the NHS is one of the most cost-efficient healthcare systems in the world.
 
has anyone seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w4tcIsaInE&feature=player_embedded

a video of the protestors who gate crashed an event to present the HMRC boss with a fake award. I loved the we'll set the dogs on you comment, as well as the trespassing scum one.

Well they say his job is to "make sure people pay their fair share"... Hmm, no it's not. That's parliaments job. His job is to enact the tax code, and if no one's breaking the law, then that's not his fault. The "letting off" stuff is a bit of a kick in the pisser but again, it's not illegal.
 
The punchline to this joke is that the NHS is one of the most cost-efficient healthcare systems in the world.

Except I never said that the public sector was inefficient (though I've certainly seen enough examples myself to know that parts of it certainly are), I said that governments spending money is inefficient. They're a different thing, because my entire post was made in the context of the government spending in order to stimulate growth a la Keynesian economics (which was the suggestion in the post I was replying to). My point was simply that the government spending money is always less efficient than the private sector doing so. Everyone replied talking about how efficient various departments are, which was entirely not my point (and I went out of my way in my post to explain that I wasn't talking about how much various things cost), so I just couldn't be bothered to reply, since people clearly had either not read or not understood my point.

I welcome people disagreeing with points I've made, but in this case they were disagreeing with points I hadn't made.
 

nib95

Banned
Except I never said that the public sector was inefficient (though I've certainly seen enough examples myself to know that parts of it certainly are), I said that governments spending money is inefficient. They're a different thing, because my entire post was made in the context of the government spending in order to stimulate growth a la Keynesian economics (which was the suggestion in the post I was replying to). My point was simply that the government spending money is always less efficient than the private sector doing so. Everyone replied talking about how efficient various departments are, which was entirely not my point (and I went out of my way in my post to explain that I wasn't talking about how much various things cost), so I just couldn't be bothered to reply, since people clearly had either not read or not understood my point.

I welcome people disagreeing with points I've made, but in this case they were disagreeing with points I hadn't made.

Government or public sector spending and management might be inefficient from time to time, but so is private sector, add to that, more importantly it's not anywhere near as reckless as private sector management imo. Which puts profits ahead of stability, infrastructure and morals. We give the government(s) (around the world) grief about the economic climate, but the truth is the largest part of the blame lies less with government and more with private corporations, banks and fat cats that essentially let greed fuel their reckless gambling and corruption, that was often with our money and at the expense of global economics.
 

morch

Member
Wow, so much hate on CyclopsRock, even though he speaketh the truth.

For starters, government services will always be more inefficient than private sector.

That's never been proven, the NHS is technically one of the most cash effective systems in the world, obviously things can improve, but it's nowhere near as wasteful as the US system which is like 17% of GDP yet leaves millions uninsured...

I must add that obviously there's time when private sector is more efficient, and there's sectors where public sector is more efficient

So compared to;
Welfare: £190bill
Health: £119bil
500px-UKExpenditure.svg.png



So where do people think the Govt. gets the £687000000000 it spends every year, or £11450 per man, woman and child per year?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/apr/25/uk-public-spending-1963

as far as i'm aware over 100billion of the #welfare spend is on old age benefits like the state pension

comparing 2010 to 2001,
spending-social-security.jpg


the main spending increases (the light blue) were in old age benefits and family benefits ie working family tax credits, no unemplyment and only a relatively small increase in incapacity/disability (which was replaced by ESA in 2007)


a bit of perspective is always a good one, yeah there's room to save money but it's doing it effectively that's the key, personally i'd ditch JSA and just gurantee a 10-15 hour minimum wage job helping the local council with community stuff or with an employer willing to give you a part time job, and the gov writing off the employer based NI contributions
 

Dambrosi

Banned
a bit of perspective is always a good one, yeah there's room to save money but it's doing it effectively that's the key, personally i'd ditch JSA and just gurantee a 10-15 hour minimum wage job helping the local council with community stuff or with an employer willing to give you a part time job, and the gov writing off the employer based NI contributions
Yeah, that's a good idea, just as long as it's for minimum wage. No work-slaving for the pittance we laughingly call "Jobseekers' Allowance", it does have to be significantly more (15 hours @ £6.19p/h = £92.85p/w, which is about £25 more than what this particular over-21-year-old gets in JSA nowadays), and Housing and Council Tax Benefit would have to continue to be paid, even in reduced amounts, to cover the shortfall (even £100p/w, minus £72 rent, £12 "bedroom tax" (wtf @ forcing a guy who's lived in a 2-bedroomed flat for over 20 years to either move or get a "roommate" just to keep his meager subsistence money!) and £10 - £15 council tax = no way, Jose).

Or, rather, the "Housing Benefit" and "CTB" portions of the new Universal Bullshit Excuse for Benefit Cuts Allowance would have to continue to be paid to cover the shortfall. Unless, you know, you wanna open up a poorhouse or two, though I believe I once posted that Soviet-style work camps would be more cost-efficient? Gotta pay down that deficit! Gotta force those lazy unemployed slobs to work, too! Crack that whip!

...actually, no, it's not really a good idea, not at all. The main positive feature of your plan would be that it's apparently easier to find a good job when you're already employed, but I kinda think that's just a myth, to be honest. Especially since, due to automation and outsourcing, there's simply not enough viable jobs to go around, and everyone in power knows it. I wonder when someone in charge will ever have the courage to admit it...
 
Government or public sector spending and management might be inefficient from time to time, but so is private sector, add to that, more importantly it's not anywhere near as reckless as private sector management imo. Which puts profits ahead of stability, infrastructure and morals. We give the government(s) (around the world) grief about the economic climate, but the truth is the largest part of the blame lies less with government and more with private corporations, banks and fat cats that essentially let greed fuel their reckless gambling and corruption, that was often with our money and at the expense of global economics.

Well again, I wasn't talking about management. No, the government doesn't "take risks" but you're comparing apples to oranges. The government isn't meant to take risks, where as private companies cannot make profit if they do not take risks. Now, you might think that the risks they take are too big, but that's a different issue.

My response is basically twofold: 1) As I've explained over the course of several posts, the public spending I'm talking about is when the government spends money that it'd otherwise not have spent (even if it generates a reason to) in order to boost the economy. Is this risky? Well, it's hard to be risky when you're not trying to make money. What's our definition of risky based upon, if not on the chances of losing your money? And since the government is never really hoping to recoup its money in this sense (building some nuclear submarines in Scotland will, whilst creating jobs, never "recoup" - they're submarines for the Royal Navy, not stereos for the market) so the comparison doesn't work. My whole point was that the way that government spends money is damaging because it has all kinds of negative effects on the market, and the market will almost always use resources more efficiently in this context. If it sounds like I'm making bold statements, it's because I've written, over the past few pages here, pretty significant chunks of texts on exactly why I think this occurs, and whilst you're entirely free to disagree with me, it doesn't appear that you are - it just seems like you're attesting to a contrary view without explaining why you think I'm wrong (very probably because you haven't read the posts, don't worry, I'm not singling you out, it's just that you happen to be responding to me right now!)

Secondly, I'd say that the "global crisis" arose for a few different reasons, but a lot of the blame is directly laid at the feet of governments. When banks were giving out cheaper loans than they should have, in some cases (such as the US sub prime mortgage crisis) that was a direct response to government legislation under Clinton telling them to do so. Likewise, the world over this was able to occur because we have all have fiat currencies that mean the government can set a central interest rate (even if it's technically delegated to a central bank). That's not a problem of a lack of regulation. A lack of regulation is when someone legally gets hold of a gun and goes round shooting people. This was more akin to the government active loading and giving a gun to the banks and telling them to go wild. There's a reason why Greece, Spain and Ireland's property booms occured immediately after they joined the Euro - because their single currency collateralised the interest rate with that of their more fiscally sound northern neighbours and their interests rates were slashed overnight. This lead to a huge boom (that was ultimately not founded on any actual growth, thus the problems they have now) and it was all entirely thanks to the way that governments set up their central banks. If there was no central bank lending money to private banks (or if the interest rates were simply more higher), they banks literally wouldn't have been able to do a huge chunk of what they did. I'm not saying the banks aren't also to blame (thanks to rehypothecation on the shadow banking system they were able to dangerously leverage credit far beyond deposits even without central banks help in some cases) but there's a big difference between a government failing to regulate against something, and a government actively aiding the behaviour we saw.

Also, people should stop comparing the NHS to the US system. I don't know a single person of any political colours who holds the US system up as an example to follow. It's got the worst of both worlds in terms of private and public. It's a sham of a system, and the NHS being more efficient than it is about as note worthy as my carbon-fibre, 8-speed lithium-ion single-mould dildo being more effective than my chocolate one. That's not to take anything away from the NHS, but it's other ones, like France, Singapore etc, which successfully meld public and private investment that we should be looking to for inspiration for reform, not sitting idly back, patting outselves on the back because we have a system that's better than the awful one in the US.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Also, people should stop comparing the NHS to the US system. I don't know a single person of any political colours who holds the US system up as an example to follow. It's got the worst of both worlds in terms of private and public. It's a sham of a system, and the NHS being more efficient than it is about as note worthy as my carbon-fibre, 8-speed lithium-ion single-mould dildo being more effective than my chocolate one. That's not to take anything away from the NHS, but it's other ones, like France, Singapore etc, which successfully meld public and private investment that we should be looking to for inspiration for reform, not sitting idly back, patting outselves on the back because we have a system that's better than the awful one in the US.

But it has been shown to be more efficient than those systems too. If I recall, only the Dutch and Irish systems held up to ours in terms of cost-efficiency. Why do we need to be reforming it so severely? It works
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
But it has been shown to be more efficient than those systems too. If I recall, only the Dutch and Irish systems held up to ours in terms of cost-efficiency. Why do we need to be reforming it so severely? It works

It's not helping a small group of people get very rich, so it needs changing, even if it's at the expense of the patients. This is the government's reason for changing it, at least.

Secondly, I'd say that the "global crisis" arose for a few different reasons, but a lot of the blame is directly laid at the feet of governments. When banks were giving out cheaper loans than they should have, in some cases (such as the US sub prime mortgage crisis) that was a direct response to government legislation under Clinton telling them to do so. Likewise, the world over this was able to occur because we have all have fiat currencies that mean the government can set a central interest rate (even if it's technically delegated to a central bank). That's not a problem of a lack of regulation. A lack of regulation is when someone legally gets hold of a gun and goes round shooting people. This was more akin to the government active loading and giving a gun to the banks and telling them to go wild.

This version of events is actually highly contested, though, and a number of economists have pointed out that most subprime loans weren't actually affected by the Clinton administration's legislation regarding lending under the CRA, because they were mortgages from bodies that weren't covered. Most loans issued under the CRA were not subprime, either.

The more recent scapegoat, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, were also Johnny-Come-Latelys to the subprime mortgage market in 2006, so they couldn't have caused that either.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
It's not helping a small group of people get very rich, so it needs changing, even if it's at the expense of the patients. This is the government's reason for changing it, at least.
.


Well, I don't have a problem with change per se. Things have to evolve, I do have a problem with outright lying in the election - "No Top Down Reorganisation" of the NHS etc.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Well, I don't have a problem with change per se. Things have to evolve, I do have a problem with outright lying in the election - "No Top Down Reorganisation" of the NHS etc.

The fact that they have extremely questionable democratic mandate for any of the wide-rangeing changes that they're making is another problem, I agree.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
The fact that they have extremely questionable democratic mandate for any of the wide-rangeing changes that they're making is another problem, I agree.

Absolutely, I was trying to avoid your more controversial comments (which I don't disagree with per se) and posit a criticism that is basically inarguable.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Absolutely, I was trying to avoid your more controversial comments (which I don't disagree with per se) and posit a criticism that is basically inarguable.

Fair enough. I don't think they're especially controversial, though. If the reforms were aimed at improving patient care then the risk register wouldn't have been vetoed because it would have obviously been an improvement--and the sections detailing risks to patient care were deliberately left out of the edited register that was released earlier in the year. Since we can thus discard improving patient care as a purpose, we have to ask what the alternative reasons could be. One of the side effects of privatisation is that a small number of people get very rich, while the quality of the service often stays similar or declines. We know from the historical evidence that privatisation is not effective at delivering the kinds of improvements that economists claimed that it would, and the government must be aware of that evidence. Thus I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suppose that the reason the government is pushing their reforms is to make a very small number of people rich at the expense of patient care. Especially if you consider that people in the cabinet have ties with private healthcare companies.

You also have to consider that, ideologically, the NHS has been a thorn in the Tories' side since it was developed. It was Labour's greatest achievement and has constantly undermined Thatcherite dogma that markets always know best, by providing some of the most cost effective healthcare in the world to every citizen of the UK with virtually no private involvement. That's the kind of elephant in the room that stings.
 

BigDes

Member
The fact that they have extremely questionable democratic mandate for any of the wide-rangeing changes that they're making is another problem, I agree.

I think this annoys me more than the actual policies the coalition are enacting

and I disagree with a good chunk of those policies
 

morch

Member
Yeah, that's a good idea, just as long as it's for minimum wage. No work-slaving for the pittance we laughingly call "Jobseekers' Allowance", it does have to be significantly more (15 hours @ £6.19p/h = £92.85p/w, which is about £25 more than what this particular over-21-year-old gets in JSA nowadays), and Housing and Council Tax Benefit would have to continue to be paid, even in reduced amounts, to cover the shortfall (even £100p/w, minus £72 rent, £12 "bedroom tax" (wtf @ forcing a guy who's lived in a 2-bedroomed flat for over 20 years to either move or get a "roommate" just to keep his meager subsistence money!) and £10 - £15 council tax = no way, Jose).

Or, rather, the "Housing Benefit" and "CTB" portions of the new Universal Bullshit Excuse for Benefit Cuts Allowance would have to continue to be paid to cover the shortfall. Unless, you know, you wanna open up a poorhouse or two, though I believe I once posted that Soviet-style work camps would be more cost-efficient? Gotta pay down that deficit! Gotta force those lazy unemployed slobs to work, too! Crack that whip!

...actually, no, it's not really a good idea, not at all. The main positive feature of your plan would be that it's apparently easier to find a good job when you're already employed, but I kinda think that's just a myth, to be honest. Especially since, due to automation and outsourcing, there's simply not enough viable jobs to go around, and everyone in power knows it. I wonder when someone in charge will ever have the courage to admit it...


I know it won't affect much in the big scheme, yeah various other things will still be paid out, but generally if it was used for non-profit organisations, i think it could really help with fostering a community spirit overall... not every task that can be done generates revenue, but even if every person on JSA was paid minumum wage to basically say 2 days a week of 6 hours doing a councils general hands on stuff like cleaning streets, fixing up parks, and assisting or shadowing more skillful ones (towards NVQ components)... the country would look a damn sight better overall, and it leaves them with 5 days to actually job hunt.

sorry for the block ^

and yeah part of a neoliberal capitalist economy is bascially having 5-10% unemployed as an incentive to others to prevent wage inflation, personally i'd rather we aimed for as much actual employment as possible... it's not like the jobcentre do a decent job at helping job hunting it's just admin more than anything now sadly :(

i just don't like seeing people wasting away myself
 

Walshicus

Member
You also have to consider that, ideologically, the NHS has been a thorn in the Tories' side since it was developed. It was Labour's greatest achievement and has constantly undermined Thatcherite dogma that markets always know best, by providing some of the most cost effective healthcare in the world to every citizen of the UK with virtually no private involvement. That's the kind of elephant in the room that stings.

I think true Thatcherite dogma isn't that the market always knows best (that's the junk they peddle to the masses) but that the market offers far more potential for profit for the Tory political class and their friends and family.
 
But it has been shown to be more efficient than those systems too. If I recall, only the Dutch and Irish systems held up to ours in terms of cost-efficiency. Why do we need to be reforming it so severely? It works

Because it's costing more and more, and we have an aging population that, whilst they can often live longer, cannot always (or even often) work longer. We have arrived at a point in medicine where it's simply not economically feasible for the government to keep everyone alive as long as they possibly can. It might make me sound like an arsehole and a penny pincher, but working til you're 65 and living til you're 85 is a luxury which the government can't afford indefinitely. If people want to pay themselves, that's great, but the reality is that every pound we borrow to help pay for the NHS today is a pound less we'll have tomorrow. Overspending in order to help keep old people alive only helps today's old people.

I keep mentioning old people - obviously they aren't the only ones that get sick, but they make up a huge proportion of the NHS's costs, with the vast majority of them also no longer paying any tax (even though they have during their entire life).
 
This version of events is actually highly contested, though, and a number of economists have pointed out that most subprime loans weren't actually affected by the Clinton administration's legislation regarding lending under the CRA, because they were mortgages from bodies that weren't covered. Most loans issued under the CRA were not subprime, either.

The more recent scapegoat, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, were also Johnny-Come-Latelys to the subprime mortgage market in 2006, so they couldn't have caused that either.

I'll need to do some more reading as my memory is hazy, but I seem to recall a lot of the blame was placed not directly at the feet of the legislation but in the result this legislation had on competition in the industry. I'll clarify this later, but you may well be right, and I may well be wrong. However, my over-riding point was that of various central banks around the world making these kind of problems possible with low interest rates. Lower interest rates inevitably lowers the risk/benefit analysis for the banks, as their "costs" for delivering the loan are lower, therefore they need more to default before a market segment becomes unprofitable and therefore they can lend to riskier parties. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if central interest rates were 50%, banks would be a lot more cautious about who they lent to, for the same reason anyone would if they received such a loan from a commercial bank.
 

milanbaros

Member?
Because it's costing more and more, and we have an aging population that, whilst they can often live longer, cannot always (or even often) work longer.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_277684.pdf

Here you'll see healthy life expectancy as a proportion of total life expectancy is actually rising. Page 13 in the link.

Between 2005-07 to 2008-10 Male and female life expectancy increased by 0.9 and 0.6 years respectively, whereas healthy life expectancy increased by 2.1 and 2.8 years respectively.

I would go about responding to all your Hayek beliefs about how the Government is always a negative interference in markets but I haven't the time (can't be bothered :( ).
 

dalyr95

Member
The more recent scapegoat, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, were also Johnny-Come-Latelys to the subprime mortgage market in 2006, so they couldn't have caused that either.

Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae did have a big part to play. They were set up to distort the market by the US Govt. to basically lend to people who couldn't afford it. And you could argue the financial crisis came around because governments didn't pursue policies of sound money and balanced budgets, instead fuelling cheap credit leading to the bust.

Increasing home ownership has been the goal of several presidents including Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton and George W. Bush.[125] In 1995, the GSEs like Fannie Mae began receiving government tax incentives for purchasing mortgage backed securities which included loans to low income borrowers.[126] In 1996, HUD set a goal for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that at least 42% of the mortgages they purchase be issued to borrowers whose household income was below the median in their area. This target was increased to 50% in 2000 and 52% in 2005

From 2002 to 2006, as the U.S. subprime market grew 292% over previous years, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac combined purchases of subprime securities rose from $38 billion to around $175 billion per year before dropping to $90 billion per year, which included $350 billion of Alt-A securities. Fannie Mae had stopped buying Alt-A products in the early 1990s because of the high risk of default. By 2008, the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac owned, either directly or through mortgage pools they sponsored, $5.1 trillion in residential mortgages, about half the total U.S. mortgage market.[128]

The GSE have always been highly leveraged, their net worth as of 30 June 2008 being a mere US$114 billion.[129] When concerns arose in September 2008 regarding the ability of the GSE to make good on their guarantees, the Federal government was forced to place the companies into a conservatorship, effectively nationalizing them at the taxpayers' expense.

There's a lot papers that argue more vehemently that Freddie and Frannie were the main instigators, but I don't have the time to find them at the moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis#Government_policies
 
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_277684.pdf

Here you'll see healthy life expectancy as a proportion of total life expectancy is actually rising. Page 13 in the link.

Between 2005-07 to 2008-10 Male and female life expectancy increased by 0.9 and 0.6 years respectively, whereas healthy life expectancy increased by 2.1 and 2.8 years respectively.

I would go about responding to all your Hayek beliefs about how the Government is always a negative interference in markets but I haven't the time (can't be bothered :( ).

Which is good, but no where near enough. We already suffer from a wildly unbalanced budget - working an extra few years in exchange for a year of potentially expensive healthcare isn't enough, and that's assuming the people who can work choose to do so, after 65. This is all ignoring things like dementia and the like, which effect entirely healthy (hitherto) people and are both expensive to care for and render the person useless, work-wise. Above all this, healthcare generally is getting both better and more expensive as techniques become more sophisticated.
 

dalyr95

Member
Interesting paper here from the Institute of Fiscal Studies concerning the future cost of the NHS in support of Cyclops Rock.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...e41JD1&sig=AHIEtbRmCepb8tpEGfWhh_Rpd00sEjN-5A

Basically they address three scenarios oh NHS spending;

  • ‘tepid’ (annual real increases of 2 per cent for the first three years, increasing to 3 per cent for the final three years)
  • ‘cold’ (zero real change, which is the lowest level of funding compatible with a pledge made by the Conservative Party)
  • ‘arctic’ (annual real reductions of 2 per cent for the first three years, falling to 1 per cent for the final three years).

If non-NHS departments were to receive an average 1.5 per cent real increase, while the NHS received a 3 per cent real increase each year between 2014/15 and 2016/17, then this would require a permanent increase in tax (or reduction in spending on social security benefits and tax credits) of £17.1 billion by 2016/17. This is equivalent to £540 per family, and such a sum is equivalent to that which would be raised through a 4.5 percentage point increase in the main rate of value-added tax (VAT).

Even if a real freeze were applied across non-NHS spending departments, our tepid scenario would still require an increase in taxation (or reduction in spending on social security benefits or tax credits) of £6.9 billion, which would be equivalent to £220 per family. Such a sum is equivalent to that which would be raised through a 1.6 percentage point increase in the main rate of VAT.

With regards to CyclopsRock's point;

Demographic pressures up to 2017 are likely to cost the NHS around £1.1–1.4 billion extra each year at 2010/11 prices, and would require average real annual funding increases of around 1.1 per cent in order to maintain quality. Only our optimistic funding scenario (tepid) would provide enough money to cover this.


NHS Funding
244.jpg


Furthermore, there have been only three three-year periods in the history of the NHS when real spending has actually fallen (1950/1–1953/4, –7.3 per cent; 1975/6–1978/9, –0.1 per cent; 1976/7–1978/9, –0.2 per cent), and there have been no six-year periods where this has been the case. This might suggest that real reductions in NHS funding – including our arctic scenario – are unlikely, although low or zero growth may well feel
like cuts to the health service.
 

Yen

Member
Gay marriage proposal rejected by Stormont assembly members

Assembly members have rejected a proposal that same-sex couples should have the right to marry.

The motion was proposed by the Green Party and Sinn Fein.

The DUP had tabled a petition of concern ensuring that the motion would have to command a cross-community majority to succeed.

While 45 assembly members voted to back the move, only three of those in favour were unionists.

Green Party MLA Steven Agnew said the motion was "simply about equality".

Ahead of Monday's debate, the Presbyterian Church had written to all assembly members stating its opposition to any change in the current legal definition of marriage.

In its letter, the Presbyterian Church said it was "not merely an issue of conscience for Christian people and churches, but a very significant one for the whole of society".

It said gay marriage would "effectively demolish generations and centuries of societal norms established on Judaeo-Christian values".

"The steady erosion of such values, with minimal debate about the worldview replacing them, causes us the very greatest concern," it added.

The church argued it was not an equality issue, "as all of the significant legal benefits and rights available through marriage are already equally available through civil partnership".

However, Mr Agnew said gay Christians were being "denied rights and religious freedoms".

"As the law stands at the moment, a couple without faith can get married in a church while a devoutly religious couple of the same sex cannot," he said.

"Whether a religious institution performs same-sex marriage ceremonies is a matter for the church involved, not the state.

"This is actually an extension of rights to religious institutions to make their own decisions on this issue.

"Therefore, the law preventing churches performing same-sex marriage ceremonies should be removed and instead legal protection should be given to churches to allow then to determine what they define as marriage."

Westminster is consulting on whether to allow gay couples in England and Wales to marry, while in Scotland the SNP government has announced plans to bring forward a bill on the issue.

Sammy Wilson, Minister of Finance and Personnel, DUP, said the Assembly shouldn't waste their time on issues like these when there's a recession.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
Ed has a big speech today. Apparently it's "the most personal speech given by a British politician for a decade" or some other tosh.

As the guy calling in to Radio 2 just said, I don't think there's any hope for Ed Millibland.
 
Wonder who will pay for these qualifications for the forgotten 50%.. and how long they can hide unemployment through training.
Ed has a big speech today. Apparently it's "the most personal speech given by a British politician for a decade" or some other tosh.

As the guy calling in to Radio 2 just said, I don't think there's any hope for Ed Millibland.
Talking about his refugee family again, no doubt. *single tear*
 

SteveWD40

Member
Light at the end of the tunnel?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19795642

When are the GDP figures for Q3 due?

I think the Olympics were a given to spur growth though, Q4 will be more telling, but we will never return to full growth until Osborne admits defeat / change of govt as people are losing confidence in them wholesale. Being unwilling to adjust to reality is not inspiring any markets.

Ed has a big speech today. Apparently it's "the most personal speech given by a British politician for a decade" or some other tosh.

As the guy calling in to Radio 2 just said, I don't think there's any hope for Ed Millibland.

Ed looked truly hurt on Andrew Mar last week when confronted with the "terrible opinion polls" line, David in before the next election threw him though, I don't think many people expect that really do they?
 
From what I've heard, Ed is a really nice and personable guy when you speak to him, but stick a camera or microphone in front of him and he turns into a wonky lunatic. Bit of a shame but then, insomuch as appearance ever matters, that's how he'll be "doing the job" of prime minister - talking at international summits, at the UN, in the wake of tragedies and congratulating successes. He'd be doing all that in front of cameras and microphones, so it matters.
 
I think the Olympics were a given to spur growth though, Q4 will be more telling, but we will never return to full growth until Osborne admits defeat / change of govt as people are losing confidence in them wholesale. Being unwilling to adjust to reality is not inspiring any markets.

I'm unconvinced about the short-term economic impact of the Olympics, to be honest. London was very quiet during those few weeks, and a lot of people took a lot of time off of work. It'll be interesting to see, but with the news that last quarters figures would have actually shown (very weak) growth were it not for the extra jubilee bank holidays, it'll be hard to accurately work out its impact at any rate.
 
Top Bottom