-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
Delusibeta
Banned
CyclopsRock
Member
Tories that aren't Boris should stop going on there. Every time it's a fucking disaster. Alan Duncan was the same.
Oh, maybe Reese-Mog could do it.
Oh, maybe Reese-Mog could do it.
PJV3
Member
To be fair to the tories, there's only a handful of labour MPs who are ok doing the show either.
For an awful moment I thought Fabricant was going to say "the black one".
PJV3
Member
If you have nothing £3 is a lot.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Although I don't really like Nick Cohen, he is right about IDS and his shitty department. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/12/iain-duncan-smith-fiddling-figures
The government in some areas seems to be run in a disturbing manner- Gove's is also very strange in its operation.
The government in some areas seems to be run in a disturbing manner- Gove's is also very strange in its operation.
Miles Quaritch
Member
CHEEZMO™;57442310 said:
So that's two people who taken their lives over this bedroom tax. I expect there will be more soon enough as people start to receive letters demanding money they don't have.
Is anyone surprised they've been manipulating figures? All their talk of record employments solely comes down the massive increase in self employed people who are still on various forms of benefits, but the government can happily claim they've got people off JSA, etc. It's moving the problem, just like Thatcher did with her decision to force millions onto incapacity benefit.
And as with that decision, we'll be paying for this one for just as many decades.
Nicktendo86
Member
I'm sorry but that article is awful, it goes into no detail about that lady's situation. If someone is willing to take their life (in a selfish manner by the way, walking in front of a lorry probably traumatised that driver) means you must have some mental health issues. The article states she had a mother, son, grandchild she doted on but no one noticed the plight she was in and took care of her?CHEEZMO;57442310 said:
If you live on £5-£10 a day or whatever, £3 a day would be lots.
But I'm always wary of the 'this person killed themselves because of x' type articles. It makes it sound inevitable, in a way, rather than the very specific things that led that person to decide upon that response.
But I'm always wary of the 'this person killed themselves because of x' type articles. It makes it sound inevitable, in a way, rather than the very specific things that led that person to decide upon that response.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
It is not about manipulating figures - almost every government ever does this (to varying extents) - it is about lying. The data the DWP collected does not support what IDS is saying. Similarly his department just avoid troublesome issues, palming off legitimate reporters.
Also, here is the article on the craziness over at the DoE.
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/0...rtment-and-the-curious-toryeducation-account/
On a different note, I was pleased to see the government managed to get Star Wars to be shot over here. Should be a good bit of prestige for the UK film industry.
PJV3
Member
Do you have much experience of people suffering from mental health issues?
being Selfish doesn't come into it, and it isn't always obvious that somebody is ill(they hide it).
This case could just be a cold calculation, my home that i love is being taken from me, i don't want to carry on.
PJV3
Member
Spend some time in a mental health unit, people have all sorts of tipping points.
If the home is the only thing she has, having it essentially taken away would leave her feeling vulnerable and not in control of her life.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I don't think we can legislate based on what mentally unstable people will do. It leaves the government rather hamstrung doesn't it?
PJV3
Member
If you can't discuss the impact of policy then what's the point of having a thread.
You can't legislate for mental issues. People top themselves for all types of made up reasons.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22500121
Gove manoeuvring to take advantage of the UKIP surge in the event of a leadership contest?
Gove manoeuvring to take advantage of the UKIP surge in the event of a leadership contest?
Miles Quaritch
Member
PJV3
Member
The government can modify policy, or put in some safeguards.
If the government isn't worrying about these sort of issues(people), then they shouldn't be in a position of power over the vulnerable.
I'm not saying they can't have this current policy, but they should be humane as possible, and we should hold ministers to account if they aren't. If the electorate say "fuck it, she was mental anyway" where is the pressure to improve policy going to come from.
Yup, I had a cousin who committed suicide and he got a lot of help from the family and doctors before he did. Once you are in that mindset any little thing will get blamed. The doctor said it's very common for people to find different reasons for doing it, if the other reasons have been solved for them.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Absolutely agree on that. They should be as humane as they can be. All I was disagreeing with was the thesis, by implication, that we should base policy on the (re)actions of irrational people. And I would contend that this woman was not acting rationally, even despite the apparently calmly written suicide note laying blame at the feet of the government. I've seen it said it many threads about suicide on here: when a person chooses to commit suicide, you can't reason them out of it (as many people often try to do, "Why didn't that person just do x, y and z instead of killing themselves?").
Nicktendo86
Member
I've suffered from them myself in the past so, yes.
I think anybody who thinks that committing suicide is a valid reaction to being taxed on a spare, council house bedroom the the maximum of £3 a day, they need to get their head sorted.
This woman was looking for a reason to blame someone for her problems.
Yes, the bedroom tax is unfair and a hindrance, but it's likely had there not been a massive media campaign around it she would have just taken it on the chin, complained about it, and moved on.
This woman was looking for a reason to blame someone for her problems.
Yes, the bedroom tax is unfair and a hindrance, but it's likely had there not been a massive media campaign around it she would have just taken it on the chin, complained about it, and moved on.
PJV3
Member
So have i, i have also spent years caring for people with mental health issues. its a very complicated area so chucking charged words like selfish around makes me very wary.
It isn't about being a valid reason, it is what it is.
Who knows what sent her over the edge(if indeed she did, it might have been a conscious logical decision for her).
there's nothing wrong with discussing it though.
She was suffering from Myasthenia gravis, so she was trapped basically, its a complicated case. it goes beyond just the bedroom tax, health and social services should have been more involved.
I have had severe depression and anxiety in the past.
I know what it's like, so therefore I know to pretty much disregard her reason for committing suicide because if it wasn't this it would have been the next door neighbour's dog barking too much, or some kid on the estate throwing a chip at her.
If the straw breaks the camel's back, don't blame the straw.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Don't worry, there'll probably be more by the end of it so we can look upon the kicking of the poorest in the way it always should have been.
PJV3
Member
But you can discuss whether the straw needed to be put there, or was the straw loaded correctly.
She seems to have coped with a muscle disease for years, a bit more joined up thinking could have avoided this situation.
It's pretty obvious really. The straw was an uncaring government policy designed to hit the poor.
PJV3
Member
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Debt is such a massive contributer to mental health issues that just handwaving away a new tax on the poorest or forcing them out of homes the last thing they felt they "had" is absolutely absurd. Oh she was mental, bound to kill herself eventually her.
I also like the lowest figure play of "its just £3 a day!", thats champion spin that.
I also like the lowest figure play of "its just £3 a day!", thats champion spin that.
PJV3
Member
You can talk about the NHS outside of Staffordshire.
You can talk about benefits outside of skivers.
You can talk about Noel Edmonds outside of being a Cun... nah, scratch that one.
I know what you mean, but sometimes you learn from the smaller picture.
In this case the government policy set off a chain of events that should have been remedied at the local level.
There seems to have been a lack of safeguarding, she wasn't opposed to moving(it appears) but she was being put in a no win situation because of her illness.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Don't worry guys I have some good news http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/may/11/young-recession-cheap-labour?utm_source=feedly
dat immiseration
dat immiseration
CyclopsRock
Member
But that's sort of part of it. As in, it's meant to be. In the same way that Greece leaving the Euro would see the Drachma being valued much lower which would benefit their international competitiveness, or inflation making people spend because it's not worth saving, recessions leading to lower payroll bills is part of the rebalancing. It's neither good nor bad, it just is.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Still, describing the abundance of cheap labour, as people scramble for jobs, as "good" is pretty tactless. And it reinforces the electorate's view that this government is out-of-touch, which has been a frequent narrative in the media over the past few months.
Edit: Ok, so the actual quote is "a recession can be a good time to grow a business". Which doesn't seem too outrageous to me. It doesn't took like he's learnt his lesson from 2010 though.
When starting a new business neither employer or employee will be in the driving seat usually.
Context, what is it?
PJV3
Member
Lord Young isn't just talking about start-ups (unless I'm reading it wrong)
He's referring to business in general, competitors going out of business etc.
Otherwise wages wouldn't be low, and buisness property wouldn't be empty.
Anyhow I'm sure we all learnt something new from his contribution.
He's referring to business in general, competitors going out of business etc.
Otherwise wages wouldn't be low, and buisness property wouldn't be empty.
Anyhow I'm sure we all learnt something new from his contribution.
Yes a policy previously called 'MANSION tax' was targeted at the poor. This person killing themselves as upsetting for the family as it may be is proof of nothing but that persons own state of mind. If I someone kills themselves and leaves a note blaming the grass for being green should we break out the cans of spray paint to stop it happening again or accept that some people are going to kill themselves at some point anyway.
About 6000 people kill themselves each year and the reasons for it happening may have little do with what is left behind in a note written by a very disturbed mind.
She had been offered another property and money to help her move according to the 6 o clock news. Her neighbours said she didn't want to move as she had been in the 3 bed house for 18 years, her kids left home years ago.
I don't mean to sound harsh but that house had served its purpose for her and there will have been another families with more need for it. The council house for life entitlement some feel is wrong.
So Hammond now says he would vote to leave the EU. That's two high level members of the cabinet going against government policy. David's back must feel like a bit stabby today
Haha! Yes today has been rather amusing. No doubt more will come out of the woodwork.