killer_clank
Member
Scotland would still be part of the UK, most likely in the process of negotiating its independence, so it would still need representation. Probably a reduced number of MPs though.
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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
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Scotland would still be part of the UK, most likely in the process of negotiating its independence, so it would still need representation. Probably a reduced number of MPs though.
Because Scotland would be a decomposing corpse without us.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Why?
Not enough laughing gifs in the world...
Ba hahaha
Erm..
Doesn't it worry you that the 'successful small European economies' Salmond promised Scotland would be like back before the recession have all been bailed out by the EU? The economic argument for independence is rubbish.
Isn't the plan at the moment to keep the pound, i.e. give up Scotland's influence on its currency completely?
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Please feel free to drop any of them on us.
Scotland's political consensus is as far removed from England's as France's or Austria's are. There are some pretty fundamental differences between us that devolution (that is, the limited national autonomy that was granted them in the 90s) has only exacerbated.
Scotland needs policies tailored to its own circumstances and being tied to England prevents that.
England too would be better off, as we'd be forced to drop the "big power" mentality that's plagued us since the end of Empire.
What, like Denmark, Holland or Luxembourg? Sweden, Norway or Finland? A handful of smaller European countries with deep institutional problems had been bailed out as a result of a very specific banking crisis.
Scotland has no influence on its currency as it stands. The idea that Scotland in any way shapes monetary policy in the "U"K is a joke.
Why isn't a sort of confederate structure proposed as an alternative?
I mean sure, I get the argument that Scotland might like more control on fiscal and social matters, more power to them. I'm a consumate localist.
But would Scotland really benefit from having to establish their own military? Foreign office? It seems to me that Scotland could get the things it wants without having to become a foreign nation.
Feel free to flame me.
I mean sure, I get the argument that Scotland might like more control on fiscal and social matters, more power to them. I'm a consumate localist.
But would Scotland really benefit from having to establish their own military? Foreign office? It seems to me that Scotland could get the things it wants without having to become a foreign nation.
Feel free to flame me.
Exactly, England is politically closer to America in social policies etc Aka conservative. We are left wing and have more in common with countries like norway and sweden.
APZonerunner
Member
If we have a Tory government post-Scot independence and they keep the pound, you can bet there'll be as many cold-blooded manipulations to hurt them for doing so as possible!
Why isn't a sort of confederate structure proposed as an alternative?
I mean sure, I get the argument that Scotland might like more control on fiscal and social matters, more power to them. I'm a consumate localist.
But would Scotland really benefit from having to establish their own military? Foreign office? It seems to me that Scotland could get the things it wants without having to become a foreign nation.
Feel free to flame me.
There was supposed to be a two question vote, with one of the options being more powers i.e fiscal independance but that got blocked.
Tories should thanks us, we just gave them every election for a generation.
Edit- If we vote yes.
killer_clank
Member
Why isn't a sort of confederate structure proposed as an alternative?
I mean sure, I get the argument that Scotland might like more control on fiscal and social matters, more power to them. I'm a consumate localist.
But would Scotland really benefit from having to establish their own military? Foreign office? It seems to me that Scotland could get the things it wants without having to become a foreign nation.
Feel free to flame me.
I'm inclined to agree, though I'd prefer us to have our own military and foreign policy given Trident and Iraq and so on. I also happen to think Westminster is basically unreformable, and independence is way more likely to get us PR and rid of the lords and so on.
CHEEZMO;57960280 said:
Duhh that's the Socttish deficit right now and that's even assuming they get a share of North Sea oil. And then there's the major legal challenges that have to be made for Scotland to recoup its assets and that's before you even begin to talk about Scotland's financial influence on the world. If you think Westminster will allow a slow, gentle separation of power then you would be bang wrong.
Doubt it. Any British government would be incredibly interested in encouraging a strong Scottish economy - in or out of the Union. Even the Tories dont shit where they eat
Look up the gers report and educate yourself.
Except it doesn't because differences over military and foreign policy are right at the core of what separates Scottish and English polities.
And there are degrees of foreign. People from the Republic of Ireland for example have a lot of rights in the "U"K that other nationalities don't. It's ludicrous to think that Scotland and England wouldn't use that as a template.
How about you read the entire report yourself and educate yourself.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-21684684
I can definitely see the argument for Scottish independence but I just can't help feeling sad about the prospect of the UK breaking up....again.
I suppose the question will at least be decided by the Scottish people, that's really the best thing I reckon.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
The only major impediment of scotland going it alone is the currency question. And even that's more of a painful choice then something showstopping(unless they want to keep the pound).
I'd rather see them stay, since although I vote conservative, I'm on the far left of the party scope, and I really don't want to see this country lurch to the right. But there's really no reason they couldn't go it alone if they so choose.
I'd rather see them stay, since although I vote conservative, I'm on the far left of the party scope, and I really don't want to see this country lurch to the right. But there's really no reason they couldn't go it alone if they so choose.
And? Oh if we take out oil we have a deficit. No shit.
Factor in vastly reduced defence and other foreign spending, and the deficit looks very favourable compared to England.
No, even if you keep the lion's share of the oil you will have a major deficit. Though like I said, even if you got 100% of North Sea oil, you would still need to invest massively in your own tax systems, infrastructure etc. without your own currency and credit. And for what, in all seriousness? For a technicality?
Now I will admit that I am a bit selfish in my own political interest but I just cannot see the real benefit to the Scottish for independence.
And all the benefits these factors bring to Scotland, yes.
We would have lower costs as a nation because we wouldn't be trying to play big boy on the world stage anymore.
We're better away from England. English society is totally alien to Scottish. Its right wing and getting further to the right, we're left wing. Yet we have right wing policies imposed on us by a party with one MP(i think) in scotland.
Conversely, I've just looked this up...The ban on fox hunting came from the north. So they're getting annoyed at you guys bringing in leftie policies and you're getting annoyed at them for their rightism.
I'm still shocked to see that a federal model hasn't been put forward.
I mean, New York and Alabama are fundamentally different in almost every way but are comfortable and able to be a part of the same country. Conversely in Australia, you have Tasmania which is very much a left wing environmentalist state, compared to conservative Queensland. I refuse to believe that Scotland and England are irreconcilable given other federations.
And you would subsequently lose your your influence and avenues for investment from the world stage. Do you think we plough all that money into foreign interests for the fun of it?
I'm left wing and where I live, the Tories are loathed. I am not happy about the government currently in power at all but I still have to admit that we still need money from the City to stay above the poverty line.
Yup thats why its a win win for everyone. England becomes a neo liberal totally conservative country it craves and we get our lefty social democratic one.
Everyone wins.
I don't give a shit about the world stage, I want to be a country nobody calls on for wars or other bullshit.
killer_clank
Member
Part of the problem is England and Scotland are considered countries in their own right as opposed to States in the federal sense, which causes the greater feeling people have to them. Additionally, calling for a true federal system is all well and good, but would be ludicrously difficult to get on the agenda and implement, they can't even make the House of Lords be fully or even partially elected for god's sake.
And the second question got blocked from the referendum. The only viable way of us getting control of all our economic and social policies is independence. I've been a unionist the majority of my life but the rest of the UK is too far gone from where we are that the only viable way to get a country we want is to get out.
You really should care about the world stage considering (again) you would be depending on them for trade and investment for at the very least, the first decade or so (and that's assuming a best case scenario).
The fact that you think England is a totally conservative country shows an overwhelming bias and borderline xenophobia that quite frankly, is highly offensive.
Except for wales. I honestly think that if Scotland goes independent then the push in wales will become huge. We can make a nice living just selling water to england. God know we have lots of it.
Nah they'll just leech off of Northern Counties.
Didn't wales turn blue at the last election?
No. It's still very much majority labour. The only blue bit is somewhere in cardiff and up north where all the english came and bought farms. Swansea and cardiff as well as the smaller towns are Labour. With Plaid mixed in somewhere.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Nah, about half and half. Plaid Cymru are nowhere though, having lived in Wales for three years for uni, I can pretty much say there is very little appetite for independence in Wales. Not just that but the proposed Severn Barrage requires massive public subsidies and a Welsh government wouldn't be able to get the bonds away to fund their 50% of the project. Stuff like that which seems small makes independence much less likely in Wales than in Scotland.
Scotland still has a huge income source (though declining rapidly) in the form of oil and gas, Wales has nothing like that, not even any major shale gas discoveries, most of those have been in England.
Not enough water there. Wales supplies a lot of northern england and the midlands with water. We flooded an entire village for you lot!
fizzelopeguss
Banned
if they use the pound or euro they won't be independent at all. That being said giving the biggest fuck you to westminster and home counties is too good an opportunity to pass up.
Look at the destruction of the social safety net for an example. Everything in the post war settlement is being slowly destroyed.