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[Delusibeta]

The problem I have with the Scottish independence case is the economic component. North Sea Oil? Been in decline for ages. Financial services? Will bugger off to London. What's left? Tourism, whisky and shortbread, essentially. I don't see the big companies that pay large portions of the tax bill sticking around for independence, which results in Scottish taxes shooting through the roof, which I don't believe is sustainable medium term.

 

[King_Moc]

Look at the destruction of the social safety net for an example. Everything in the post war settlement is being slowly destroyed.

And most people are against that. As the next election will attest to.

 

[Acorn]

And most people are against that. As the next election will attest to.

No the discussion around the poor and ill is toxic. Just listen to anything that comes out of osbourne's mouth. England has been happy for the last 30 years to pursue neo liberal policies and it isn't changing no matter who happens to be in the power there.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

And most people are against that. As the next election will attest to.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/14/labour-voters-poor-study-solidarity

Dat SCROUGERS! narrative.

 

[Garjon]

No the discussion around the poor and ill is toxic. Just listen to anything that comes out of osbourne's mouth. England has been happy for the last 30 years to pursue neo liberal policies and it isn't changing no matter who happens to be in the power there.

So you haven't heard the numerous reports on the likes of bedroom tax, ATOS and how the Universal Credit is a disaster? Just because there's a bunch of mega rich cunts in parliament certainly doesn't mean there is no one standing up for the working classes.

EDIT: Well that is very disappointing to say the least Cheezmo.

 

[Acorn]

So you haven't heard the numerous reports on the likes of bedroom tax, ATOS and how the Universal Credit is a disaster? Just because there's a bunch of mega rich cunts in parliament certainly doesn't mean there is no one standing up for the working classes.

And none of it will change for the better. England is a conservative country.

 

[RedShift]

No the discussion around the poor and ill is toxic. Just listen to anything that comes out of osbourne's mouth. England has been happy for the last 30 years to pursue neo liberal policies and it isn't changing no matter who happens to be in the power there.

George Osbourne, who is of course universally loved by the people of England

EDIT:

And none of it will change for the better. England is a conservative country.

The Conservatives got barely over a third of the vote in 2010, as the opposition party during a recession with the full support of the press.

The fact they failed to win the election when they should have had a landslide victory shows there is a progressive majority throughout the UK. At the moment with the vote split between Labour and the Lib Dems it isn't as well represented as it should be in parliament. With the collapse of the Lib Dems and the split with UKIP that'll be reversed at the next election.

I'm sure you're about to say Labour are no longer progressive, but then why did they get over 40% of the vote in Scitland, which is supposedly so much more progressive than England?

 

[Acorn]

George Osbourne, who is of course universally loved by the people of England

EDIT:


The Conservatives got barely over a third of the vote in 2010, as the opposition party during a recession with the full support of the press.

The fact they failed to win the election when they should have had a landslide victory shows there is a progressive majority throughout the UK. At the moment with the vote split between Labour and the Lib Dems it isn't as well represented as it should be in parliament. With the collapse of the Lib Dems and the split with UKIP that'll be reversed at the next election.

I'm sure you're about to say Labour are no longer progressive, but then why did they get over 40% of the vote in Scitland, which is supposedly so much more progressive than England?

We vote labour tactically to keep the tories out. See the way we vote with uk and scottish elections, also scottish labour is very different from UK labour.

No major UK party is offering an alternative to neo liberalism, New Labour has continually been shifting rightwards.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22561006

 

[CHEEZMO™]

The Scottish National party leader told the BBC: "This is a man who doesn't like getting challenged because when the obnoxious views of his party are put to him then his bubble deflates very quickly and that is what we saw in his panicky interview this morning."

The SNP said Farage had "lost the plot" by alleging the demonstrators were representative of Scottish nationalism or the wider independence movement, while Salmond said Farage was over-exaggerating the demonstration's significance.

Asked about Farage ending the radio interview, Salmond told the BBC: "We are dealing with someone who actually says on radio that the BBC are part of a hate campaign against him. Now it would be a great mistake to take somebody with that mentality with any degree of seriousness."

Salmond added: "Yes we will have a political debate and discourse in a proper way in Scotland. We can frankly do without Ukip, who dislike everybody and know absolutely nothing about Scotland."

Nice.

 

[Delusibeta]

Even Scotland's national bullshitter is intolerant to Farage's bullshit, that's how much bullshit Farage produces.

 

[Acorn]

Salmond added: "Yes we will have a political debate and discourse in a proper way in Scotland. We can frankly do without Ukip, who dislike everybody and know absolutely nothing about Scotland."

Ether'd

 

[PJV3]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/14/labour-voters-poor-study-solidarity

Dat SCROUGERS! narrative.

It's a vicious circle.

The more labour chase the 'centre' ground, the less they speak for those at the bottom, the less voices are heard defending the welfare state. The centre is being moved rightwards by the left.

The left in England is a lost cause until Labour grow a pair and actually develop a few principles. That probably entails losing quite a few general elections until they can shift the centre of political gravity.

The only good point Farage ever makes is that the three main parties are almost the same, except he bizarrely thinks they are all left of centre.

 

[Acorn]

It's a vicious circle.

The more labour chase the 'centre' ground, the less they speak for those at the bottom, the less voices are heard defending the welfare state. The centre is being moved rightwards by the left.

The left in England is a lost cause until Labour grow a pair and actually develop a few principles. That probably entails losing quite a few general elections until they can shift the centre of political gravity.

The only good point Farage ever makes is that the three main parties are almost the same, except he bizarrely thinks they are all left of centre.

Problem is the labour establishment no longer wants to move the political climate to the left. Look at Liam Byrne and his attitude towards the welfare state.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Political parties aren't capable of moving the public anywhere. All they can do is move themselves in a direction and hope that at least the debate will follow. From There maybe people will move. But Ed isn't capable of moving anything left, just like Farage can't move the public to euroscepticism. The politicians we have are reflections of us, not the other way around.

Edit: more carefully quoting, Labour can't move the political climate left, either.

Edit 2:

 

[Walshicus]

Political parties aren't capable of moving the public anywhere. All they can do is move themselves in a direction and hope that at least the debate will follow. From There maybe people will move. But Ed isn't capable of moving anything left, just like Farage can't move the public to euroscepticism. The politicians we have are reflections of us, not the other way around.

That's incredibly naïve. Political parties can and do control the perception of the general public through sympathetic media.

Let's imagine every Tory, the Mail, News International and the rest all started reporting a falsehood as fact. Let's say that the French want to ban lager in England. No matter what the truth of it, a lot of people will start to believe it is truth.


The fact is that the propaganda designed to reinforce existing stereotypes and suspicions works a lot better than the truth at controlling people's attitudes. The vast majority of people don't actually care enough to perform independent research what with them living already pretty busy lives. If the truth alone was effective we wouldn't have a Tory Government, we wouldn't have half the tabloids and we would certainly have a better, tinier "The City".

 

[PJV3]

Political parties aren't capable of moving the public anywhere. All they can do is move themselves in a direction and hope that at least the debate will follow. From There maybe people will move. But Ed isn't capable of moving anything left, just like Farage can't move the public to euroscepticism. The politicians we have are reflections of us, not the other way around.

Edit: more carefully quoting, Labour can't move the political climate left, either.

Edit 2:

It's a two way street, I'm not saying if labour move left the country will automatically follow(that's why I said they will lose several elections).

I know it's more complicated than that, I just don't want to sound like a sociologist and start banging on about culture, media and other influences. it was a point about the labour party and its lack of purpose.

 

[CyclopsRock]

That's incredibly naïve. Political parties can and do control the perception of the general public through sympathetic media.

Let's imagine every Tory, the Mail, News International and the rest all started reporting a falsehood as fact. Let's say that the French want to ban lager in England. No matter what the truth of it, a lot of people will start to believe it is truth.


The fact is that the propaganda designed to reinforce existing stereotypes and suspicions works a lot better than the truth at controlling people's attitudes. The vast majority of people don't actually care enough to perform independent research what with them living already pretty busy lives. If the truth alone was effective we wouldn't have a Tory Government, we wouldn't have half the tabloids and we would certainly have a better, tinier "The City".

In which case, Ed still can't move us left, but I think you're - unreasonably - associating a dedicated campaign of propaganda with a party moving in another direction and expecting the debate and then the electorate to follow. They're two different things. If Ed, having got together with Clegg, Letwin and Hugh Grant to agree on a narrative, and they pushed the media into following it, then yeah, maybe they could move the electorate leftwards. But that's not what we were talking about, was it?

 

[Delusibeta]

Even the Tories are realising they're moving to the far right (although this guy doesn't have the correct reason)

Conservative Party members have reacted angrily to newspaper claims that a figure close to David Cameron described activists as "mad, swivel-eyed loons". Reports claim a senior Tory blamed grassroots party members for pressuring MPs to amend the Queen's Speech. More than 100 Tory MPs voted for a motion expressing "regret" at the lack of an EU referendum bill in the government's legislative programme. Downing Street has refused to comment on the reports.

The comments were allegedly made at a private dinner by someone with "strong social connections" to the prime minister, The Times, Mirror and Daily Telegraph newspapers reported. "There's really no problem," the unnamed person is reported to have said, referring to the Conservatives who voted to amend the Queen's Speech over Europe. "The MPs just have to do it because the associations tell them to, and the associations are all mad swivel-eyed loons." Conservative associations are the constituency campaign groups made up of local party members.

Source.

 

[CyclopsRock]

All associations and grassroots of a parties are loons, though, and they're always more extreme than their parties. Us folk of UK PoliGAF are all fairly young and interested in politics - but how many of us are a) members of a party and b) active in that party? If we, with our strong views and obvious interest, aren't making up the party associations and grassroots, who is? The swivel eyed nutters. But they're no less swivel eyed or nutty in the other parties, I think - the tories are slightly less hairy, perhaps, (with Labour having homeless tramp beards and the Lib Dems hair mostly being in their enormous socks) but no less nutty, in my experience.

 

[PJV3]

All associations and grassroots of a parties are loons, though, and they're always more extreme than their parties. Us folk of UK PoliGAF are all fairly young and interested in politics - but how many of us are a) members of a party and b) active in that party? If we, with our strong views and obvious interest, aren't making up the party associations and grassroots, who is? The swivel eyed nutters. But they're no less swivel eyed or nutty in the other parties, I think - the tories are slightly less hairy, perhaps, (with Labour having homeless tramp beards and the Lib Dems hair mostly being in their enormous socks) but no less nutty, in my experience.

I used to be in Labour pre-Blair, you could have said back then that it had loons/extremists but they were nearly all expelled or sidelined. I suppose there might be a few somewhere oop north, I don't know.

The Tories haven't gone through a similar process, Cameron has tinkered with the Tory party and some have moved to UKIP, but most have stayed and are waiting for him to go.

The closest Labour get is a few students going through a bolshy phase, but the party hasn't got an ideology to get fanatical about(triangulation? 3rd way?). The LibDem's have nutters in abundance, libertarian to the extreme.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

NHS demo

 

[CHEEZMO™]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Oh dear.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Some whiny Tory cunt bleating about homomarriage on my TV. What a bellend.

What a shower of shit. Scum better not get their way.

 

[nib95]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Oh dear.

One more prominent UKIP racist dick head.

 

[PJV3]

Some whiny Tory cunt bleating about homomarriage on my TV. What a bellend.

What a shower of shit. Scum better not get their way.

I'm taking solace in the probability that they are destroying their chances of winning the next general election.

Cameron leading a majority tory government seems improbable, he would have more success leading a pack of hyenas.

The Matt lucas lookalike from the Bow group whining about mandates and gay marriage was strangely absent when the NHS reforms appeared out of nowhere.

 

[defel]

I bet Cameron is contemplating jumping ship and joining the Lib Dems at this rate lol

 

[Conor 419]

Our parties seem to growing more similar. I will always however, vote in the best interests of education and healthcare (because I'm not a bad person) which of course will once again have me vote Labour.

 

[PJV3]

I bet Cameron is contemplating jumping ship and joining the Lib Dems at this rate lol

Yeah, there are two conservative parties at the moment, he should set up a socially liberal tory group.

The rest can marry UKIP.

After watching Gove yesterday, he can form a party of one, where he can exist in his own reality, He is seriously delusional.

 

[Delusibeta]

Plus, with gay marriage growing in acceptance in the US and France, we better follow suit before those third-world countries* make us look bad*.

*joke, although I wouldn't be too surprised if that's actually what was Cameron's line of thinking.

 

[War Peaceman]

Our parties seem to growing more similar. I will always however, vote in the best interests of education and healthcare (because I'm not a bad person) which of course will once again have me vote Labour.

This seems to be a strange comment to make at a point when one of the major parties is riven with internal disputes...

 

[Miles Quaritch]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Oh dear.

Only yesterday a top Ukip donor said women wearing trousers was "hostile behaviour".

Surprisingly (or perhaps unsurprisingly), not the first time I've heard this said.

usually comes from sad old men who get their jollies from staring that young girls/women in short skirts.

 

[Maledict]

Impressively it looks like the Tories have completely destroyed any benefits they might have gotten from the gay marriage bill. All they have managed to do is remind everyone of how bigoted and insane the rank and file Conservative party is. I actually feel sorry for Cameron over this one - he was doing the right thing morally and the right thing politically (in the long term) but his own party prefer to devour their young.

And if the civil partnerships amendment for straight couples passes its going to be years until I can get married and apparently the treasury may kill the entire bill due to the cost (or so they threaten).

Wonderful start to the week!

 

[PJV3]

Impressively it looks like the Tories have completely destroyed any benefits they might have gotten from the gay marriage bill. All they have managed to do is remind everyone of how bigoted and insane the rank and file Conservative party is. I actually feel sorry for Cameron over this one - he was doing the right thing morally and the right thing politically (in the long term) but his own party prefer to devour their young.

And if the civil partnerships amendment for straight couples passes its going to be years until I can get married and apparently the treasury may kill the entire bill due to the cost (or so they threaten).

Wonderful start to the week!

Perhaps Cameron could release a separate Civil partnerships equality bill for a backbencher to push.

 

[CyclopsRock]

The Gay Marriage bill never was a politically beneficial thing, though, imo. It was never going to get someone who wasn't already voting Tory to vote for them (ie Lib Dems and Labour voters), and it may have caused traditional Tory voters to stay at home, feeling disenfranchised. I think it was a relatively sacrificial bill in the first place.

 

[Maledict]

The Gay Marriage bill never was a politically beneficial thing, though, imo. It was never going to get someone who wasn't already voting Tory to vote for them (ie Lib Dems and Labour voters), and it may have caused traditional Tory voters to stay at home, feeling disenfranchised. I think it was a relatively sacrificial bill in the first place.

It's very much a political thing - it's just not something that delivers votes in 2015. It's become a litmus test for huge amounts of younger voters however, and failing that test makes you a toxic / nasty party. That's why Cameron has pushed this - because 10 years down the line the Tory party need those votes and it doesn't want to have to constantly fight the image of being the unpleasant bigoted party. It's the same for the republicans in the USA and why some of them have switched their tune.

It's never been about the small number of votes this could deliver, it's always been a capstone of the entire 'detoxifying ' exercise Cameron has been leading because the party is poison to an entire generation and that image needs to change.

On the plus side, Labour have done the right thing and will table their own amendment which will hopefully prevent this from being wrecked.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I actually agree with you that is part of the detoxifying attempt but I don't think Cameron is interested in the long term of the party. I think he just made a miscalculation and/or is doing it anyway. S's for labour, they needn't bother. The vote will pass anyway.

 

[Maledict]

Up until Yvonne Coopers interview today the ammendment was going to pass - labour and lib dems would have supported it, killing the bill beyond the next election. Both parties support the idea in principle and numerous members had said they would back it.

It was, in parliamentary terms, a really good ploy to wreck the bill but thankfully its been staved off.

EDIT: re motivations, its not beyond imagination that Cameron is doing this because he believes in it. He's significantly younger than his party and its not beyond belief he's doing it out of a personal belief and a desire to detoxify the party.

 

[RedShift]

We're pretty much at the point where a the majority of people under 30 will see 'Campaigned against equal marriage' as a huge red flag saying 'Under no circumstances vote for this guy'.

Even if it cost them votes at the next election it would be worth it, if they make a big fuss on the wrong side of history here they'll permanently brand themselves as the Nasty Party for an entire generation.

 

[PJV3]

Lab 35%
Con 24%
Ukip 22%.

Con going 3rd party soon.

 

[Maledict]

Lets remember that at the last election all the polls taken up until the last couple of days had the lib dems equal or ahead of conservatives. A lot of those voters will vote for UKIP in next years euro elections then come home to the conservatives in 2015.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Lab 35%
Con 24%
Ukip 22%.

Con going 3rd party soon.

What poll is that? I have....

Latest YouGov: 11pt Labour lead (Lab 40%, Con 29%, LD 9%, Ukip 15). Implied Labour majority of 116

 

[PJV3]

What poll is that? I have....

Latest YouGov: 11pt Labour lead (Lab 40%, Con 29%, LD 9%, Ukip 15). Implied Labour majority of 116

It's off the UK polling report site, this one tends to favour UKIP by a few points, but there has been a 5% swap from Tory to UKIP that is interesting.

Maybe it's related to the swivel eyed tory loons stuff.

Just looked, it was taken partially after the kerfuffle.

 

[CyclopsRock]

It's off the UK polling report site, this one tends to favour UKIP by a few points, but there has been a 5% swap from Tory to UKIP that is interesting.

Maybe it's related to the swivel eyed tory loons stuff.

Tbf, it's an accusation that's hard to deny.

 

[PJV3]

Tbf, it's an accusation that's hard to deny.

Ha.

I think it will come to a head soon, Cameron is on shaky ground, the fact he's way more popular than the party won't stop the nutters.

They just can't forgive him for the last general election.

 

[CyclopsRock]

If they think a Michael Howard style old school Conservative campaign would have won them a majority they're mad. This is the new normal. That said, I think people are far more in tune with a party that... Deals with immigration now than they were even in 2010 let alone 2005. People have real concerns with it and they've been ignored for a long time imo. Thing is, it's - somewhat erroneously - bundled up with the EU which actually, I think, puts the Tories in a good position electorally, but one that might rip them apart.

I'm so drunk.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Am I really listening to Vince Cable on Radio 4 making the case for privatising the Royal Mail? I wouldn't have thought that'd be something the Lib Dems would be in favour of.

Edit: Cyclops, on a Monday night??

 

[zomgbbqftw]

What poll is that? I have....

Latest YouGov: 11pt Labour lead (Lab 40%, Con 29%, LD 9%, Ukip 15). Implied Labour majority of 116

Survation. Ignore it.

Polling companies that can be trusted: ICM, Ipsos MORI, Populus, and possibly YouGov.

TNS/BRMB, Angus Reid, Survation and Opinium all have very spotty records with respect to the GE results in 2010 and then the London Mayoral election last year.

Really though, ICM/Guardian is the absolute gold standard for polling I do all of my betting based on ICM polling and tend to come out on top.

 

[Maledict]

Am I really listening to Vince Cable on Radio 4 making the case for privatising the Royal Mail? I wouldn't have thought that'd be something the Lib Dems would be in favour of.

Edit: Cyclops, on a Monday night??

Liberals aren't labour, and liberal economics includes belief and support for the free market. Whilst they aren't as madly dogmatic about it as the Tories, the liberals will privatise stuff if they believe it makes sense.

Not sure that privatising Royal Mail does however - presumably it would just be to get the pension debts and annual losses off the government books. Private industry would absolutely shrink and gut the service however, its the only way to make it profitable.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Liberals aren't labour, and liberal economics includes belief and support for the free market. Whilst they aren't as madly dogmatic about it as the Tories, the liberals will privatise stuff if they believe it makes sense.

Not sure that privatising Royal Mail does however - presumably it would just be to get the pension debts and annual losses off the government books. Private industry would absolutely shrink and gut the service however, its the only way to make it profitable.

Wrt to the pension debts, they are already on the government books, so are the assets, they were taken on last financial year. Amazingly the £55bn liability sits off the balance sheet and the £28bn asset sits on the balance sheets. Government accounting, how does it work!?!

However, the sale of Royal Mail is actually because of an EU competition directive. Labour got the sale on the road by allowing the buyer to abandon the universal service mandate, but then the coalition put that back in and very suddenly all of the European based buyers backed out. The Lib Dems (and Tories) have also blocked the sale of Parcel Force alone (it is a highly profitable global business), they want an all or nothing deal with the buyer committing to the universal service mandate. Unsurprisingly there are few takers.