CyclopsRock
Member
Yougov puts Labour on 4 up today, FYI. Not quite a dip, not quite a recovery. The long term trend, though, ain't looking too peachy. Let's see...
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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
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Nicktendo86
Member
Labour unchanged, ukip nicked one from Tories.
WayneMorse
Banned
Cameron got beat up today in PMQs over Royal Mail sell off.
"Dunce of Downing Street" will hopefully stick around.
"Dunce of Downing Street" will hopefully stick around.
Nicktendo86
Member
Two muppets was better.
At the end of the day labour should hold them to account but they should be careful to throw stones in glass houses, their track record of selling state assets is hardly exemplary!
Besides, a lib dem was in charge and I am sure if heat continues they won't worry about leaving Vince as the fall guy.
Oh, and it is embarrassing watching Milliband at PMQs.
Edit: actually embarrassing watching all of them. What happened to wanting an end tonounch and Judy politics? Name calling and screeching. Cunts the lot of them.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
As a resident of Weston-super-Mare, 2 miles from the English end of the prospective barrage in Brean Down. I hope it does happen. Be wonderful for our local economy, also the tide will only go out half a mile instead of a mile. Might even have some navigable water.
UtterlyPerplexed
Member
Haven't had the chance to watch it for myself, but apparently the vast majority of commentators have declared it a resounding Farage victory in this second debate.
I don't think I'll bother much to engage with these Nick & Nigel debates, much less watch them. Three debates that will change few people's minds revealing nothing new about the two men one of whom will never come close to enough power to implement anything in his party's manifesto. Although people have been saying that Farage is oddly being very supportive of Putin, which sounds a little disconcerting.
I don't think I'll bother much to engage with these Nick & Nigel debates, much less watch them. Three debates that will change few people's minds revealing nothing new about the two men one of whom will never come close to enough power to implement anything in his party's manifesto. Although people have been saying that Farage is oddly being very supportive of Putin, which sounds a little disconcerting.
Everything that was said ranged from twisting the data to outright bollocks apparently.
Nicktendo86
Member
Polls have a heavy win for Farage. I saw the first one, I had it as a Farage win as well.
The pro EU argument Clegg puts forward is littered with dodgy stats and figures and cannot deviate from his script. Farage puts forward a positive case, we can do this and we can do that. It might be completely wrong, but that is not the point. He is putting forward a positive message and is a real threat to all three main parties now.
WayneMorse
Banned
How broken does someone have to be to think a fascist party like UKIP is a good idea or will do anything to solve the UK's problems?
Nigel Farage is just Nick Griffin for middle class people who are too afraid to admit they're racist.
Nigel Farage is just Nick Griffin for middle class people who are too afraid to admit they're racist.
this country is fucked.
Nicktendo86
Member
Look, I never had and never will vote ukip as I disagree on their views on gay marriage amongst other issues and have no actual policy beyond the EU, but to just dismiss their supporters as closet racists is missing the point entirely. It is condescending to voters and the more the parties do it the more they will be turned off the big three.
You don't have to agree with Farage but he comes across as a bloke you can have a chat and debate with down the pub, Clegg, Milliband and Cameron come across as PR robots. People are pissed of with politics and turning to an alternative, which is rustling up the traditional parties. How does that mean the county is fucked?
You don't have to agree with Farage but he comes across as a bloke you can have a chat and debate with down the pub, Clegg, Milliband and Cameron come across as PR robots. People are pissed of with politics and turning to an alternative, which is rustling up the traditional parties. How does that mean the county is fucked?
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
George Bush Jr for Prime Minister! You can ENJOY a BEER with him down at THE PUB. What more do you want!
The country is fucked, and democracy as a whole, because the country doesn't seem as well educated as it used to be across the board. It is stupid, easily lead, easily incited, and all the things that make long term goals and positive plans all but impossible.
Basically in Civ terms, its time to pump all that shit into education and hope for the best!
WayneMorse
Banned
The previous generations thought Thatcher was a good idea so I definitely wouldn't call them "better educated."
WayneMorse
Banned
The only reason Clegg supports the EU is because he's all for the crippling neolib austerity packages, but of course Farage refuses to attack the EU from a left wing basis, it's all about swarms of black people and Muslims invading the country.
That being said there are still areas of the EU I like, like the human and workers rights, and the business and environment regulation. THAT'S what Farage and Cameron hate about the EU, the Tory donors hate that EU regulation is hurting their profits, and if Cameron ever went and renegotiated the UK's place in the EU those areas would be taken out of the EU's jurisdiction in the UK.
That being said there are still areas of the EU I like, like the human and workers rights, and the business and environment regulation. THAT'S what Farage and Cameron hate about the EU, the Tory donors hate that EU regulation is hurting their profits, and if Cameron ever went and renegotiated the UK's place in the EU those areas would be taken out of the EU's jurisdiction in the UK.
Yep.
anonymous_abc
Member
And that just isn't going to happen. I cannot see the rest of europe agreeing to more than a few symbolic 'returns of british sovereignity'... It would lead to the colapse of the whole thing if everyone starts pulling at the threads and cherry picking what they like.
Nicktendo86
Member
People are turned off by the robotic pr constantly being regurgitated and being told they are racisit if they are concerned about immigration and the EU. So typical of the left, oh people find something I don't agree with popular so they must be stupid. What a load of cobblers.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm certainly not the first person to say this, but it's amazing how the EU (and the BBC too) is one of those institutions where people on the left think it's far too Right, and people on the right think it's far too Left.
Nicktendo86
Member
In other news today, Maria Miller's expenses report has been released just a while ago and was pretty damning. She has been ordered to pay back £5k but that is chicken feed compared to the £1.2 million in profit she made from selling her home.
The report states she was unhelpful and even lodged legal action to say the report was overreaching it's mandated scope. She should not only lose her job, she should be in prison as far as I'm concerned and Cameron should be ashamed if he continues to support her.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26865695
The report states she was unhelpful and even lodged legal action to say the report was overreaching it's mandated scope. She should not only lose her job, she should be in prison as far as I'm concerned and Cameron should be ashamed if he continues to support her.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26865695
WayneMorse
Banned
http://gigaom.com/2014/04/03/europe...trality-law-along-with-major-roaming-reforms/
What would the anti-EU crowd think of this? Powerful net neutrality legislation would be near impossible to pass in Parliament in this environment.
What would the anti-EU crowd think of this? Powerful net neutrality legislation would be near impossible to pass in Parliament in this environment.
UtterlyPerplexed
Member
I don't want Nigel Farage to be in the election TV debates, says Wallace
You...you don't need to be a ukipper to realise what an awful message this seems to ring. What, has he watched the Nick VS Nigel debates so far and wet himself in fear of the charismatic former stockbroker?
What? No, that would have the opposite effect and would perpetuate the image of the deceitful mainstream party. That would be more fodder for the "LibLabCon are not interested in debating with other voices, or for freedom of speech".
I am moderately pro-EU and vehemently against UKIP's stance on gay marriage. But I wouldn't argue for their exclusion from the debates especially given their consistently high poll ratings that often put them higher than the Lib Dems. You want to put the case to the country that UKIP is bonkers, you rationally engage with them in a debate as Clegg has at least tried. It's pathetic when a wannabe Prime Minister would rather silence them.
You...you don't need to be a ukipper to realise what an awful message this seems to ring. What, has he watched the Nick VS Nigel debates so far and wet himself in fear of the charismatic former stockbroker?
What? No, that would have the opposite effect and would perpetuate the image of the deceitful mainstream party. That would be more fodder for the "LibLabCon are not interested in debating with other voices, or for freedom of speech".
I am moderately pro-EU and vehemently against UKIP's stance on gay marriage. But I wouldn't argue for their exclusion from the debates especially given their consistently high poll ratings that often put them higher than the Lib Dems. You want to put the case to the country that UKIP is bonkers, you rationally engage with them in a debate as Clegg has at least tried. It's pathetic when a wannabe Prime Minister would rather silence them.
Nicktendo86
Member
It really looks like they are scared, and it is a bit baffling. I can see Cameron's view, he doesn't want to be seen to be arguing in favour of the EU against Fararge and alienate Tory eurosceptics.
Milliband? Just a coward.
Milliband? Just a coward.
CyclopsRock
Member
IMO There's no point in Farage being in the debates. Our parties are about far more than their leaders, but there can be only one Prime Minister - as such, I think the function of any debate should be to illuminate the audience as the nature and character (and oratory skill) of the potential would-be prime ministers. Given that there's, realistically, nil chance of Farage being PM in 2015, I don't see why he should be there.
At least with Clegg you can argue that there's a good chance he could be Deputy PM again, though you'd think the last 5 years would give a good enough understanding to people of what he'd be like.
PS Labour up to 6 ahead in today's YouGov. Is the trend reversing?!
At least with Clegg you can argue that there's a good chance he could be Deputy PM again, though you'd think the last 5 years would give a good enough understanding to people of what he'd be like.
PS Labour up to 6 ahead in today's YouGov. Is the trend reversing?!
Nicktendo86
Member
Seems to be settling back down to pre budget. Not really sure what to say, Labour will gave a majority by the looks of it.
dapperbandit
Banned
I didn't realise there would be more than one of these Clegg vs Farage debates.
It seems kind of pointless to me considering the same points were made and the same questions were asked in both. There's not going to be a another is there?
For Joe Bloggs though, it's difficult to unravel the facts from these debates since both parties support their positions with statistics they've pulled from god knows where. And it's unclear whether those are reliable sources, outdated statistics, skewed intepretations of the literature and so on. This is perfectly summed up with a relatively simple question: what percentage of British law is decided by the EU? Clegg will tell you 7% and Farage will say "50% is a conservative estimate". How is your layman supposed to form an informed opinion on the matter if the answer that question is so obscure?
I can see why people thought Farage won however. Clegg came across flustered and straw manned Farage relentlessly.
It seems kind of pointless to me considering the same points were made and the same questions were asked in both. There's not going to be a another is there?
For Joe Bloggs though, it's difficult to unravel the facts from these debates since both parties support their positions with statistics they've pulled from god knows where. And it's unclear whether those are reliable sources, outdated statistics, skewed intepretations of the literature and so on. This is perfectly summed up with a relatively simple question: what percentage of British law is decided by the EU? Clegg will tell you 7% and Farage will say "50% is a conservative estimate". How is your layman supposed to form an informed opinion on the matter if the answer that question is so obscure?
I can see why people thought Farage won however. Clegg came across flustered and straw manned Farage relentlessly.
dapperbandit
Banned
Sorry I wasn't clear; I watched both, I just didn't know beforehand that there would be more than one debate
CyclopsRock
Member
I just spoke to my mumsy and she said "Clegg looked like he was a bit mental". I didn't watch either.
Nicktendo86
Member
He was trying to show passion at the beginning but came across as frantic and a bit crazy. Was all over the place.
Even The Rock at the height of his WWF fame?
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Well. I've had the pleasure at close quarters of seeing the welfare state swing into action this last week. And I saw no evidence of brutal cuts and slashing hatchets and so on, just a whole load of people dealing with a desperately difficult situation calmly, professionally and fairly quickly (they would have been faster except I put them off for a week and a bit for the funeral to happen).
Sure, it was a bit complicated, and blindingly obvious - even to the civil servants - that the whole thing is way too messy. But they were good at the face to face stuff, good at sorting out holes between central government departments, good at bridging gaps between central and local government, and excellent at avoiding the need to fill in mindbending forms - all, when pressed, in a matter of minutes.
Now this was a fairly extreme case, but it doesn't look like swinging cuts to me.
Also seen recently a case of JSA being abruptly chopped when a new assessor was brought in without any background in the case, but then restored on appeal - which seems to be the way things ought to work. Except of course when people don't follow the appeal up when it is justified and then get whingy about it afterwards.
If you've got a case, appeal it. If you haven't, give up. If that's the extent of the reforms so far, than it does not seem bad to me.
(Note: I've no direct experience of the sort of disability tests that ATOS were said to have been up to - so I'm not defending that)
Sure, it was a bit complicated, and blindingly obvious - even to the civil servants - that the whole thing is way too messy. But they were good at the face to face stuff, good at sorting out holes between central government departments, good at bridging gaps between central and local government, and excellent at avoiding the need to fill in mindbending forms - all, when pressed, in a matter of minutes.
Now this was a fairly extreme case, but it doesn't look like swinging cuts to me.
Also seen recently a case of JSA being abruptly chopped when a new assessor was brought in without any background in the case, but then restored on appeal - which seems to be the way things ought to work. Except of course when people don't follow the appeal up when it is justified and then get whingy about it afterwards.
If you've got a case, appeal it. If you haven't, give up. If that's the extent of the reforms so far, than it does not seem bad to me.
(Note: I've no direct experience of the sort of disability tests that ATOS were said to have been up to - so I'm not defending that)
Jezbollah
Member
got to say - that reminded me of this:
dapperbandit
Banned
That "people's army" quote made me lose my shit. Another highlight was Clegg labelling Farage as the sort of person "who thinks the Moon landing was fake, who thinks Obama isn't American, who thinks Elvis isn't dead."
That elbow was not broadly representative.
That elbow was not broadly representative.
WayneMorse
Banned
So when will Murdoch decide he's had enough with Farage and UKIP and tear them down?
WayneMorse
Banned
anonymous_abc
Member
For Nicktendo's viewing pleasure:http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/a...tfur-rahmans-muslim-favouritism-the-evidence/
Jezbollah
Member
But "may" doesn't mean "happening" does it?
Seems like Ed is pandering to the commuter demographic of the electorate. At the end of the day, history is littered with politicians who suggest such things but in reality struggle to achieve it when they get in Government.
I have been a commuter since 1995 - and I'm all for bringing the rails back into public ownership, but the financial outlay of legally exiting agreements for each rail franchise might make it prohibitively expensive to be achievable.
Nicktendo86
Member
Thanks Jimbo, much appreciated. Look forward to the rest of the blogs, even if it is excruciating reading!
As for Milliband, left himself a nice cop out with 'may'. Let's see if it hits the manifesto before we start creaming ourselves!
Edit: just saw in twitter that the council is being raided, and sure enough government says inspectors have been appointed!
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...o-investigate-london-borough-of-tower-hamlets
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm not entirely convinced privatisation has made the railways any worse. They aren't very good, but I don't think that's got a whole lot to do with them being privatised. Indeed, numbers of rail passengers has been going up since privatisation after a significant period of decline. There are a million and one explanations for this that have nothing to do with the quality of the service (higher petrol prices, higher property prices forcing people to live further from their jobs being the most notable) but I'm unconvinced that Ed being in charge will make them better.
I'd love it if he proposed it, though. It's about time our politicians had a proper discussion and debate about the role of the state, the relationship between the people and their government etc, rather than just arguing about whether we should be cutting the deficit over 5 or 8 years.
I'd love it if he proposed it, though. It's about time our politicians had a proper discussion and debate about the role of the state, the relationship between the people and their government etc, rather than just arguing about whether we should be cutting the deficit over 5 or 8 years.
If he cares so much about rail travel he should stop umming and arring about HS2 and either support it or come out with a viable alternative. That would show more decisiveness than another populist policy that probably won't happen even if they win (like freezing energy prices).
Nicktendo86
Member
Let's also not forget that labour made vauge noises of putting railways back into public ownership before 97 but didn't, they actually presided over the final sales. Oh look, they are back in opposition, a year before the election, and again making vague noises. I wouldn't believe a word of it.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Other than perhaps Virgin, rail privatisation was a total disaster. The sheer amount of government bail-outs and buybacks is proof of that, and companies continue to have no idea how to incentivize train travel.
Probably just hot air on Ed's part, but its good sounding hot air.
Probably just hot air on Ed's part, but its good sounding hot air.
anonymous_abc
Member
I have no numbers to back it up, but I recently heard how much the state put into the railways before and after privatisation. And the difference is orders of magnitude. It's mind boggling. So much so that I don't understand how anyone can argue that privatisation is saving the tax payer money.
I wish I had a link, article or something about it but cannot find it.
Nicktendo86
Member
Yeah Virgin are very good, the trip I have to make to/from Liverpool for work is 99 out of 100 on time and a good journey.
Southern/South Eastern or whatever the fuck it is called is terrible. I don't have to use it very often, only to go to Dartford every now and then for work, but I don't think it has ever been on time.
Southern/South Eastern or whatever the fuck it is called is terrible. I don't have to use it very often, only to go to Dartford every now and then for work, but I don't think it has ever been on time.
CyclopsRock
Member
We have no "control" comparison, though. I don't doubt it's cost a lot, but there's no reason to think it wouldn't have gone up significantly were it state owned, nor that the service would have been better (or worse). Personally it's not something I'm wedded to - given the nature of physical rail tracks, they don't seem like an obvious candidate for privatisation. But I think a lot of people have slightly rose tinted glasses and they see a delayed train, know it's privatised and shake their fist at Major.