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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

We have no "control" comparison, though. I don't doubt it's cost a lot, but there's no reason to think it wouldn't have gone up significantly were it state owned, nor that the service would have been better (or worse). Personally it's not something I'm wedded to - given the nature of physical rail tracks, they don't seem like an obvious candidate for privatisation. But I think a lot of people have slightly rose tinted glasses and they see a delayed train, know it's privatised and shake their fist at Major.

All I know is, I always shudder when anyone in Germany suggest privatising the Deutsche Bahn.

IMHO anything to do with infrastructure belongs in state hand! Roads, Rail, Electricity, Internet, water, gas, ect...

Private companies just have no incentive to get these services to remote areas and people as there is no money to be made there. Sure everyone will love to own the rail between manchester and london, it promisses lots of passengers and riches, but why would anyone volunterily service some shitty village in the back waters of wherever. The state is not out to make a quick buck or profit but is there to server all and everyone.
Just thinking about Water privatisation in France and Violia just makes my blood boil. (watch 'Water Makes Money')
 

Nicktendo86

Member
I have no numbers to back it up, but I recently heard how much the state put into the railways before and after privatisation. And the difference is orders of magnitude. It's mind boggling. So much so that I don't understand how anyone can argue that privatisation is saving the tax payer money.

I wish I had a link, article or something about it but cannot find it.

Would be interesting if you can find those figures.

Personally, privatised, state run, I don't give a shit so long as the trains run on time, there is plenty of capacity and they are affordable. I honestly don't know how that would be best achieved, and I don't really care. Just do it! We need to get rid of a lot more first class carriages, they are barely used and also rip out a lot of seats on tube trains please, leave priority seating only so more people can fit in and I don't have to be in someone's sweaty pits.

I'm sorry to bang on about the Labour/rail thing but another thing to remember is Brown tried to privatise the London Underground and it was a massive disaster, had to reverse it and cost a lot of money which is one of the reasons LU is so cash strapped now. God, Brown was such a disaster, and now his mates want to run the country!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tfl-...to-end-underground-privatisation-6485451.html
 
All I know is, I always shudder when anyone in Germany suggest privatising the Deutsche Bahn.

IMHO anything to do with infrastructure belongs in state hand! Roads, Rail, Electricity, Internet, water, gas, ect...

Private companies just have no incentive to get these services to remote areas and people as there is no money to be made there. Sure everyone will love to own the rail between manchester and london, it promisses lots of passengers and riches, but why would anyone volunterily service some shitty village in the back waters of wherever. The state is not out to make a quick buck or profit but is there to server all and everyone.
Just thinking about Water privatisation in France and Violia just makes my blood boil. (watch 'Water Makes Money')

I think for some things, like water, it makes absolutely no sense to privatise it. But for something like telecoms, it absolutely does. When we had a monopoly in the UK it was terrible (in fact, I think we've spoken about it on this thread several times). It would take months and months to get a new phone line installed (and back when you needed a new phone lime in order to open a business bank account, it basically meant you were waiting for British Telecom when you wanted to start a new business etc). The service was awful, the prices were high, there was no incentive for them to fix broken things etc. Now, it's not a 100% free market now because BT (now a private company) still owns all the infrastructure as a relic from when they were nationalised, and regulation defines the manner in which they lease that infrastructure out, but by and large the UK has benefitted hugely from a private market in home phones, mobile phones, mobile internet, home internet, basically every facet of communications. Likewise, can you imagine how many fewer business trips and holidays would be possible if you could only fly with British Airways? I don't even have a problem with private roads with tolls as long as there is a non-private way of getting there too (as per Spain, France etc).

I think it's precisely because infrastructure is so important that some of it absolutely has to be in private hands - and likewise, some of it has to be in public hands. It's all down to whether it's possible for there to be effective competition or not. With the telecoms market there is, with water supply there isn't. Energy companies are a bit of a grey middle.

You're always going to have the problem of remote areas being less well served but, well, that's part of living in a remote area I guess. If the government wants to subsidise these areas - and obviously in a nationalised industry they basically would - I'd rather they did that via general taxation rather than by hammering the users of that service in better off areas more (for example, when Royal Mail was publically owned it had to offer the same service everywhere, for the same price - this basically meant that people in cities that used post were subsidising those in the sticks that also used it. To me, it makes far more sense if that subsidy comes out of general taxation. Likewise with energy, internet etc. I wouldn't want some centralised, re-nationalised BT charging everyone that wants high-speed internet out of the arse so that Joe McFarmer in Carrot-Cruncher-ville can get his porn quicker. If it comes out of central taxation, it needs to be justified and is accountable to the electorate .When it comes out of some mass BT budget, that's not the case, as per most Quango's).
 
69b495b17.jpg


George Bush's portrait of Blair.
 

Garjon

Member
I'm sorry to bang on about the Labour/rail thing but another thing to remember is Brown tried to privatise the London Underground and it was a massive disaster, had to reverse it and cost a lot of money which is one of the reasons LU is so cash strapped now. God, Brown was such a disaster, and now his mates want to run the country!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tfl-...to-end-underground-privatisation-6485451.html

Erm you do know that the part-privatisation of LU was a promise made by Tony Blair when he was first elected right?
 
Erm you do know that the part-privatisation of LU was a promise made by Tony Blair when he was first elected right?

Yes I don't get why people say Labour promised to renationalize the railways in 1997.

From the manifesto:

The process of rail privatisation is now largely complete. It has made fortunes for a few, but has been a poor deal for the taxpayer. It has fragmented the network and now threatens services. Our task will be to improve the situation as we find it, not as we wish it to be. Our overriding goal must be to win more passengers and freight on to rail. The system must be run in the public interest with higher levels of investment and effective enforcement of train operators' service commitments. There must be convenient connections, through-ticketing and accurate travel information for the benefit of all passengers.

To achieve these aims, we will establish more effective and accountable regulation by the rail regulator; we will ensure that the public subsidy serves the public interest; and we will establish a new rail authority, combining functions currently carried out by the rail franchiser and the Department of Transport, to provide a clear, coherent and strategic programme for the development of the railways so that passenger expectations are met.

The Conservative plan for the wholesale privatisation of London Underground is not the answer. It would be a poor deal for the taxpayer and passenger alike. Yet again, public assets would be sold off at an under-valued rate. Much-needed investment would be delayed. The core public responsibilities of the Underground would be threatened.

Labour plans a new public/private partnership to improve the Underground, safeguard its commitment to the public interest and guarantee value for money to taxpayers and passengers.

The only thing they promised here was to run the privatized rail better than the Tories through increased regulation, and to partially privatize the London Underground.
 

Garjon

Member
Yes and they made a complete hash of it, it was a disaster.

Wow so politicians keeping their promises is bad now, as you said earlier? They tried, it didn't work, so they changed it back the way it was. Brown did fuck up a lot but I'm not sure what else he could've done there.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
The worst part isn't her expenses or her being a cunt, it's this:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...tician-should-have-control-over-a-free-press/

In other news, Labout on 5+.
Down from 6 at end of last week. If Cameron had any sense he would have sacked Miller and shown a bit of leadership. It is almost like he doesn't want to win the election (tin foil hat on, avoid EU vote?)

Anyway. Guido Fawkes has been immense on twitter today, digging up details of expenses that mps sitting on the standards committee have been claiming.
 
Down from 6 at end of last week. If Cameron had any sense he would have sacked Miller and shown a bit of leadership. It is almost like he doesn't want to win the election (tin foil hat on, avoid EU vote?)

I think it's a two-fold thing; One is that he doesn't want to sack yet another female member of the cabinet. The other thing is the expenses scandal is still a big wound for many MPs of all colours, and ... well, it's kinda like when you've drunk too much and you know you're going to be sick, but you just want to go to sleep so you sort of stop yourself from being sick for as long as possible. Sometimes it works and you fall asleep and feel OK in the morning. Sometimes you don't and wake out of your haze 20 minutes later and vomit on the bed. And the sensible thing is, obviously, to go throw up in the toilet you minute you know you need to throw up, clean your pegs and jump into bed in your jimmy jams. When he was in opposition, Cam did that final option, but that was when he had the benefit of a supportive party with few internal fractions and a taste of power on offer, back in 2009. He doesn't have that luxury now, so I think that right now he's lying in the dark with the lights off and his bedside fan on, hoping he doesn't wake up surrounded in vomit.

Edit: As it were...
 

Nicktendo86

Member
I think you're right about not wanting to lose another female really, although I think for the public a cabinet full of men is more palatable than a minister who has fiddled her expenses but is still there just because she is a woman. I just don't get why he hasn't acted, she can't stay on and it is just dragging out longer and longer.

Edit: I must say Zach Goldsmith is becoming one of my favourite MPs, tirelessly campaigning for proper recall. Can see big things for him in future.
 
It'll take a long time for the Tories to accept him as anything other than a junior minister though, imo. His views on environmental policy are too askew from the rest of the party. Either the party will have to change (possible) or he will (unlikely).
 
Labour leed down to 3% today, was 6% two days ago. I think ukip are starting really take labour votes.

It's utterly pointless trying to read too much into the difference between two polls, every post on ukpollingreport will tell you that...

edit
case in point the most recent post.
This morning’s YouGov poll for the Sun had topline figures of CON 33%, LAB 36%, LDEM 10%, UKIP 14%. The three point lead for Labour is lower than usual, though nothing to get too excited about as it is well within the normal margin of error for a lead of five points or so. The 14% for UKIP is right at the top end of their their normal range. YouGov have had them at 14% a couple of times this year, but you need to go all the back to November to find them any higher.

[...]

Obviously this is just one poll so one probably should read too much into it. [...]
 
Each poll in itself is relatively useless, but it is another data point on a graph which shows a longer term trend. And that long term trend is of a narrowing of about 10 points in the last 20 months or so. The question really becomes "when will the streams cross" and, given the built-in advantage in FPTP for Labour, if that cross comes before the election, will it be enough for the Tories to win a majority or plurality?
 
Each poll in itself is relatively useless, but it is another data point on a graph which shows a longer term trend. And that long term trend is of a narrowing of about 10 points in the last 20 months or so. The question really becomes "when will the streams cross" and, given the built-in advantage in FPTP for Labour, if that cross comes before the election, will it be enough for the Tories to win a majority or plurality?

It really isn't that clearly cut...



edit
looking at the table below the graph I am not really sure how they fit together...
This is what I get when I plot the data in Excel.
Their plot seems to be missing the last couple of months (a whole year almost), which is rather strange if not to say missleading.


but anyway the movement of Lab/Con towards each other seems to have stoped they seem to be on unchainging levels for a while now. Almost looks saturated.
 
That's odd - where is that screengrab from at the top? When I go to that same page, I see the following:

7Guvo.jpg


Which looks a) different to yours and b) does include this year. Similarly, here's a graph (using the same data) put together in Jan of this year re: Labour's lead:

All-polls.jpg


Edit: Also, lol at the Lib Dems.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
So the IMF has predicted we will have the mist growth of all g7 nations this year and manufacturing is up 1% in last month. Good news.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
It is just rumbling on and on, why let it? Just sack the cow and be done with it.

She's not going to resign. Cameron's not going to turn around and fire her. Media are enjoying their moment, because there's nowt else much to talk about at the moment. Conservatives are trying to turn it towards "reforming the system" and that's the only direction I see this ending unless there's a revelation of some kind.
 
She'll get shuffled out in the summer but to where? Anywhere she goes will be an insult. She'll end up in Dept of Climate Change at this rate.
 
Dave needs to sack her. Get it done overnight before Ed calls for him to sack her and keeps her in place. This shit is taking over the agenda when really it should be about the extremely positive economic news from the IMF and industrial/manufacturing production figures. The IMF should have been the lead story after that Pistorius bullshit, but it was Miller and the manufacturing production stats got relegated to business news.

With Miller threatening Levenson against non-compliant press I can't imagine they will let go of this, and piling Ed Miliband on will make her invulnerable. Something Dave should avoid. Sack her and get it over and done with. Dave needs to grow a pair.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Dave needs to sack her. Get it done overnight before Ed calls for him to sack her and keeps her in place. This shit is taking over the agenda when really it should be about the extremely positive economic news from the IMF and industrial/manufacturing production figures. The IMF should have been the lead story after that Pistorius bullshit, but it was Miller and the manufacturing production stats got relegated to business news.

With Miller threatening Levenson against non-compliant press I can't imagine they will let go of this, and piling Ed Miliband on will make her invulnerable. Something Dave should avoid. Sack her and get it over and done with. Dave needs to grow a pair.
This X 1000. WTF is Dave thinking?
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
At this point, if they sack her they will have blinked and shown weakness. They've strenuously defended ministers before (Hunt, particularly) and survived; they do not want to show the media they can be beaten like this.

That has to be their logic, really. It is a largely meaningless story in the grand scheme of things though. Most people won't know who she is and certainly won't remember by the election. Maybe her constituents?
 

Wes

venison crêpe
Yeah. They've stuck with her too much now to sack her. I'm sure I've read that Cameron has personally said as such. Ed will attack again tomorrow, likely to little effect, and the Tories will batten down the hatches until the next news story catches the media's attention. She could always resign I guess but she seems too stubborn to do something like that.

It would take another story to break out, or a whole host more backbenchers to voice their opinions, before the leadership did anything.

She'll be hidden away in the reshuffle, with a two paragraph snide remark or two about her political fall in most editions, but I honestly can't see much more coming from this unless, like I say, another related story hits the press.
 

Zaph

Member
...aaaaand she's gone.

Edit: so weird that Cameron let her dangle for so long, literally wasted an entire wave of good economic news.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
Hahaha well I coudn't have been more wrong could I! I thought she was ready to dig her heels in and stick around. Sounds like she's been heavily urged to resign though. Should've done it last week though if she was going to do it at all.

Either way, it's a blow to Cameron after he actively backed her.
 
It's a blow but it's better to do it before PMQs. It's better that he gets to talk about the IMF figures etc rather than getting battered for Maria only to have her go later on today anyway.

I think the biggest bit of damage is that the top of the party just look totally out of touch by the way they've acted. They genuinely thought it wasn't a big deal.
 
Good riddance. Fucking leech.

Replaced by Said Javid. Fuck yeah. Great addition to the Cabinet, though in a lightweight position. First of the 2010 intake into the Cabinet iirc.
 
Maybe he can actually do something with it. It's a bit mad that the Creative Industries come under control of DMCS when it's the second largest industry in the country. I guess that, as an industry, it's not one that requires much in the way of government oversight (either in regulation or in help) but perhaps in Javid we can have a minister that bats for us.

My friend works in his comms department at the treasury specifically for SJ. Well, his old comms department, she's a civil servant so I guess she's staying where she is. I'll tap her up for some behind the scenes goss.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
I thought Ed got quite a good few jabs in but nothing that's likely to linger. Cameron did himself no favours by referring to the whole episode as a circus, as he played a fairly large part in it's making.
 

Volotaire

Member
Just saw the breakdown of Gove's reforms for A levels and GCSE's for subjects. I appreciate the more rigorous mathematical treatment of the sciences, computer science and economics, but more maths does not correlate with harder exams. The exam system needs to move away from a process where students can revise exam technique and the textbooks to answer questions to a process of applying what they have learned to unfamiliar contexts. It seems the languages and English are moving this way, utilising unseen texts. This is particularly crucial in maths, where there is not enough abstract content in the syllabus. It is based on a method knowledge system, rewarding accuracy not fluency of solutions. Moving from maths from a college/sixth form level to university level is a big gap in expectations. Moreover, an increase in practical experiments in the sciences will just lead to an inflation in grade boundaries if they are internally assessed and contribute to a higher degree of the overall grade, given the lenient nature of teachers.

Good riddance. Fucking leech.

Replaced by Said Javid. Fuck yeah. Great addition to the Cabinet, though in a lightweight position. First of the 2010 intake into the Cabinet iirc.
Yes, I'm impressed by his performance given his progression over a short period of time. His media performance is pretty poor however. Yep 2010 intake.
 
Javid is a good addition, but Nicky Morgan is not. Horrible person. Anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, anti-civil liberties. Can't think of a worse person to take over the "minister for women" job (not that I attach any value to said job). Javid has been given the equalities brief because Morgan was seen as unsuitable.

On the other hand, Andrea Leadsom has been added to the Treasury team. Awesome addition. She is really smart, I was at a talk she gave a couple of years ago, she seems to get it on public finances and expenditure. She also has real world financial experience with a history in banking and she has held very senior positions in a male dominated industry which is an achievement worth shouting about.
 
Morgan reminds me of Ann Widdecombe, hopefully she doesn't have a bright future in the Conservative Party unless somehow American style social conservatism is more popular than I thought with the Tories.
 
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