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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

You really don't get it do you? You've profiled a person before even knowing them based on the economic conditions or actions of their peers.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but aren't you of Asian descent zomgbbqftw? Would you enjoy being banned from airports because I don't feel comfortable around you, and you're more likely to be a terrorist? The numbers don't lie.
You don't get it I think. What I am saying is that opening up unlimited immigration from a country where the average national wage is around a third of our own is going to attract criminality. The numbers, so far, support this view. There was no need to add Romania to the EU or remove transitional controls on immigration until such time when their GDP per capita has reached a level comparable to other Eastern European countries. The EU acted rashly by moving to add Romania to the EU and by not having a longer transitional period so their income levels could adjust to being in the EU.

If I were a Romanian criminal, why would I stay in Romania where there is a lower amount of wealth? Why not go and ply my trade in Britain where there is significantly more wealth.

I am not saying we should ban all immigration to Romania, putting them into the points system makes sense and it would ensure that criminals aren't allowed in.

Unless you are suggesting there are no criminals in Romania I think we can accept that being a criminal in this country is far more lucrative than being a criminal in Romania. If we accept that is true and we accept that we have freedom of movement within the EU, then the please give me the logical conclusion.

As for my background, believe me I have been stopped plenty of times entering the country and when entering the US. I was also stopped by the police during that idiotic stop and search for immigrants or terrorists. I understand your concerns, but I don't see how putting transitional immigration controls onto a country where the GDP per capita is significantly lower than our own is the same as treating black people like criminals or brown people like terrorists. There is compelling evidence to suggest that the disparity in incomes between our two nations is attracting criminality but there is no evidence that all black people are criminals or all brown people are terrorists.

The difference is very clear. Again, I will repeat that I do not believe that all Romanians are criminals or that I believe that being Romanian means that they are more likely to be criminals and if I were to go to Romania I am certain I would be right. Please explainto me why you believe that rreintroducing transitional immigration controls while the Romanian economy catches up to the rest of the EU is somehow a fascist view?
 

Nicktendo86

Member
This is why so many people are voting ukip. As soon as a debate, with cold hard facts, is started words like racist and fascist are thrown around, and those who have genuine concern about immigration feel marginalised.

We need to have proper debates without the name calling and actually address people's concerns, then I feel ukip would more or less disappear.
 
This is why so many people are voting ukip. As soon as a debate, with cold hard facts, is started words like racist and fascist are thrown around, and those who have genuine concern about immigration feel marginalised.

We need to have proper debates without the name calling and actually address people's concerns, then I feel ukip would more or less disappear.

For starters been against uncontrolled immigration is not racist.
 

pulsemyne

Member
This is why so many people are voting ukip. As soon as a debate, with cold hard facts, is started words like racist and fascist are thrown around, and those who have genuine concern about immigration feel marginalised.

We need to have proper debates without the name calling and actually address people's concerns, then I feel ukip would more or less disappear.
Cold hard facts can swing both ways. Facts are wonderfully easy to manipulate to your own personal agenda. The reason so many are voting UKIP is because there are lots of old people who believe everything that is written in the Daily fucking mail. That lovely newspaper that printed bullshit about Ed millibands father and also used to support the nazi party.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
"YouGov’s final European election poll is out tonight, conducted for the Sun and the Times. Topline figures are:

UKIP 27%,
LAB 26%,
CON 22%,
GRN 10%.
LDEM 9%."

And from what I overheard on the news:
- Over 40% believe there's no real difference between Tories, Labour and Lib Dems.
- 50% believe all politicians lie.
 
Anybody who believes in the free flow of capital and trade, but doesn't believe in a free flow of labor is a hypocrite. If you're in the UK and want the ability to trade with Romania with no restrictions, then somebody from Romania should be able to trade their labor in the UK as well.
 
"YouGov’s final European election poll is out tonight, conducted for the Sun and the Times. Topline figures are:

UKIP 27%,
LAB 26%,
CON 22%,
GRN 10%.
LDEM 9%."

And from what I overheard on the news:
- Over 40% believe there's no real difference between Tories, Labour and Lib Dems.
- 50% believe all politicians lie.

I imagine that, 3 months ago, someone had offered the Tories 5% off the top voteshare, they'd have bitten your hand off. That it's 3rd place sours it a little in terms of media representation, but it's a fairly decent result for them, all things considered, I think.
 
I imagine that, 3 months ago, someone had offered the Tories 5% off the top voteshare, they'd have bitten your hand off. That it's 3rd place sours it a little in terms of media representation, but it's a fairly decent result for them, all things considered, I think.

I think the Tories will do better than the pollsters rate them right now. Rain predicted for polling day will depress the Labour vote and oldies have either already got their votes in for the Tories or will go out and vote tomorrow. Plus there is a growing "shy Tory" effect in the polling that only ICM correct with a spiral of silence adjustment. People who say they voted Conservative in 2010 who now say don't know or refuse to say are highly likely to vote Con, but only ICM make the correction which is why they are considered the gold standard pollster by many pundits and psephologists.

My last minute prediction - UKIP - 29%, Con 26%, Lab 23%, LD 6%. Labour will blame poor turn out, the Tories will be content with second and UKIP will win, but not by as large a margin they want. No one will be happy but they also won't be too unhappy. A nothing result.
 
If Labour comes in third I could really see serious calls for Miliband's head. There's no excuse for them not being in first by a wide margin, UKIP be damned. This is all the fault of his leadership.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Ah well. Just over an hour until the polling station opens.

After all these years I still get a bit of a tingle - and some last-minute dithering - every time I vote.
 
You don't get it I think. What I am saying is that opening up unlimited immigration from a country where the average national wage is around a third of our own is going to attract criminality.

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Can you back that up?
Why wouldn't honest hard working people be equally or more invited by significantly higher wages.
Surely criminals would be more hesitant because of the possibility of better policing here.
 

kitch9

Banned
This is absolutely ridiculous.
Can you back that up?
Why wouldn't honest hard working people be equally or more invited by significantly higher wages.
Surely criminals would be more hesitant because of the possibility of better policing here.

Why don't you ask the residents of Paris or Milan?
 

dalin80

Banned
I would like to vote but honestly can't find a group that I would be happy with. Most would ignore my concerns and deem me a racist, homophobic kitten murderer for simply having them and an equal distance to the over side would be UKIP who aknowledge such concerns but go too far into manipulating and over stressing them.

Feeling very stuck in the middle between left and right.
 
This is absolutely ridiculous.
Can you back that up?
Why wouldn't honest hard working people be equally or more invited by significantly higher wages.
Surely criminals would be more hesitant because of the possibility of better policing here.

Well, there have been statistics shown in the thread. The comparison with Germany is due to the Farage interview but they provide an interesting snapshot - in London between 2008 and 2012 there were roughly similar numbers of Germans and Romanians in London (actually more Germans) yet the Romanian group were arrested over ten times more often.

If you're discounting the financial disparities as a cause, what is the cause? The only reason I can think of that isn't massively racist (Romanians are all criminals etc) is 'luck'. But what do you think?
 
Sounds like an Egg Hen problem to me.
Maybe they are criminal because they are greeted by massive prejudice, thusly have trouble finding a job and supporting their family, It probably doesn't help that everyone greeting them thinks they are criminal no matter what.
Also the police is probably a gazillion times more likely to pick them up than someone who looks western European.
 

RedShift

Member
Sure. And crime is only one facet of life, and you can't really statistically account for variances in personality (nice people, arseholes etc), but it's an undeniable fact that any given Romanian you meet in London is more likely to have committed a crime than a German; more than ten times more likely, in fact. As such, I feel pretty comfortable saying I'd rather live next door to Germans.

Holy shit people are still doing this.

Making judgements about people based on their ethnic background is prejudiced, pretty much by definition. You can't split people into arbitrary groups and treat each person as merely a representative of that group. Reread what you just wrote but with 'Black person' instead of Romanian and you get the same bullshit racists have been spouting for ages.

This is one of the most worrying things about the rise of UKIP. Farage is trying to make it acceptable to be prejudiced if you have some statistics to support it (most of which end up being unsourced or entirely untrue, as Paxman pointed out on Newsnight).

No matter how many stats you have about how awful a nationality or race supposedly is it still isn't ok to see a person and judge them based on the basis of their race or nationality.
 

kitch9

Banned
About what? I am not denying there is criminality or that there are criminal Romanians. But blanket statements about zee Germans are just as pathetic.
I surprised it needs to be spelt out.

Just so you know I am completely all for non discriminatory immigration where every applicant gets treated the same and has a fair crack of the whip regardless of where they come from. I am also completely for ensuring our youth have plentiful training or apprenticeship opportunities for those who don't do so well at school but are useful on a practical basis and that there are plenty of well paid jobs available in a market which isn't already flooded with cheap labour. It only takes one company willing to use cheap foreign labour willing to work for £60 quid a day on a building site to undercut prices heavily and pretty much everyone has to do it.

Which is why I am against our current immigration system.

Are you denying the Germany has subtly managed to obtain a higher portion of fiscal control over the Eurozone?
 
Holy shit people are still doing this.

Making judgements about people based on their ethnic background is prejudiced, pretty much by definition. You can't split people into arbitrary groups and treat each person as merely a representative of that group. Reread what you just wrote but with 'Black person' instead of Romanian and you get the same bullshit racists have been spouting for ages.

Please read the rest of the thread. Someone said literally the same thing to me above and I replied.

This is one of the most worrying things about the rise of UKIP. Farage is trying to make it acceptable to be prejudiced if you have some statistics to support it (most of which end up being unsourced or entirely untrue, as Paxman pointed out on Newsnight).

No matter how many stats you have about how awful a nationality or race supposedly is it still isn't ok to see a person and judge them based on the basis of their race or nationality.

Who's judging anyone? This is about immigration policy, not some sort of national loveliness competition. It's a primarily economic question - how are statistics not relevant to that?! I don't understand why, because it hurts our sensibilities about race, the fact that a group of people from one country are overwhelmingly more likely - literally an order of magnitude more likely - to commit crime should be ignored. There are obvious, economic reasons for this; It's not an indication that Romanian people are inherently more disposed towards criminality than Germans, or that German people are saintly do-gooders; It's an economic cause which has these effects.
 

TCRS

Banned
Anybody who believes in the free flow of capital and trade, but doesn't believe in a free flow of labor is a hypocrite. If you're in the UK and want the ability to trade with Romania with no restrictions, then somebody from Romania should be able to trade their labor in the UK as well.

Because those two are totally the same thing right? I don't see why it can't be like that and why it's hypocritical.
 
Watching the news this morning you wouldn't think there were elections going on...

We just had a chat in our office (there's about 25 of us in today? Not everyone was involved in the convo, but everyone was listening at least) and literally no one has voted. A handful of us are intending to later, but no more than 3 or 4. I only will if I can stealth my way into the polling station closest to my old flat (and right next to my office) rather than the one actually in my constituency.
 

bovo

Member
Watching the news this morning you wouldn't think there were elections going on...

They aren't meant (allowed?) to discuss elections on the day.

BBC Guidlines said:
On polling day the BBC, in common with other broadcasters, will cease to report campaigns from 06.00 until the polls close. Coverage will be restricted to uncontroversial factual accounts, such as the appearance of politicians at polling stations or the weather. Subjects which have been at issue or part of the campaign, or other controversial matters relating to the election, must not receive coverage on polling day, to ensure that nothing in the BBC's output can be construed as influencing the ballot while the polls are open.
 

StayDead

Member
"YouGov’s final European election poll is out tonight, conducted for the Sun and the Times. Topline figures are:

UKIP 27%,
LAB 26%,
CON 22%,
GRN 10%.
LDEM 9%."

And from what I overheard on the news:
- Over 40% believe there's no real difference between Tories, Labour and Lib Dems.
- 50% believe all politicians lie.


I'm going to go chuck a vote greens way since they're politically the closest to what I want, but I'm seriously unsure of what to do for the locals. There's no green candidate, just labour, ukip, conservative, lib dem and national front and I'm somewhat considering spoiling my ballot. Then again I worry that if I don't vote for someone who isn't UKIP then they'll get in. I realise local elections are not a massive deal anyway, but I'd take anyone but UKIP.
 

RedShift

Member
Please read the rest of the thread. Someone said literally the same thing to me above and I replied.



Who's judging anyone? This is about immigration policy, not some sort of national loveliness competition. It's a primarily economic question - how are statistics not relevant to that?! I don't understand why, because it hurts our sensibilities about race, the fact that a group of people from one country are overwhelmingly more likely - literally an order of magnitude more likely - to commit crime should be ignored. There are obvious, economic reasons for this; It's not an indication that Romanian people are inherently more disposed towards criminality than Germans, or that German people are saintly do-gooders; It's an economic cause which has these effects.

It's not about Immigration policy though is it? I'll directly quote you:

"Also, am I the only one that agrees with Nige that I would rather live next to Germans than Romanians?"

You are explicitly judging potential neighbours by their ethnic origin, or at the very least their nationality. That is wrong.
 

Deadman

Member
Just voted. Labour for both. They wont win the council in my area but the candidate is my next door neighbour and he's a nice guy.
 

StayDead

Member
Back from voting, voted Greens for Europe and Conservative locally (I won't support them in the generals, but locally the councillor recently has done some really nice things so I thought I'd support her again).
 

dc89

Member
BoMizItCcAA_SY1.jpg:large
 

Nicktendo86

Member
LOL, who was it?
Ex Tory police minister. They were talking about Teresa May's speech yesterday, he said how the police federation rep next to him described May on twitter as a fuckwit.

Edit: Her speech BTW blatantly had the Tory leadership in mind, she was brutal. Too right as well, police need to sort themselves out.
 
It's not about Immigration policy though is it? I'll directly quote you:

"Also, am I the only one that agrees with Nige that I would rather live next to Germans than Romanians?"

You are explicitly judging potential neighbours by their ethnic origin, or at the very least their nationality. That is wrong.

Explicitly their nationality, yeah, and "who would you rather live next to" is basically a proxy for "who would you rather emigrated from their home to come to the UK." Are you honestly telling me that you'd have no preference? Look at the things zomg mentioned - Germans are more likely to have professional, skilled jobs. They're more likely to integrate into local areas rather than areas based around their nationality. They're more likely to be employed full stop, less likely - by orders of magnitude - to commit crime and more likely to speak English.

If the question posed was "If there's a person with all these qualities, and you can choose them to either be German or Romanian, which is it to be?" then your answer may well be based on inherent racism (or perhaps a love for one culture over another to enjoyed shared interests with, who knows?) But that's not the question. The question is, without knowing anything else, who would you rather live next to? Without knowing anything else, why is it racist to have a preference for the group that's less likely to commit crime, more likely to speak English, more likely to have a decent job etc etc?

If you want to take race and nationality out of it, you can basically replace the question with "Would you rather live next door to a rich, well educated immigrant, or a poor, badly educated immigrant?" because those are broadly the types of immigration we get from Germany and Romania respectively. Those aren't stereotypes, they've the natural result of the relative economies of the two country compared with the UK's. Change it to any other country that fit those trends if it makes you feel better.
 
(p.s. the stats you're citing are arrest stats, not crime stats. All they really prove is that the police is racially profiling Romanians, and ergo anyone defending Farage is at best speaking out of their arses or at worst is being racist).
 
(p.s. the stats you're citing are arrest stats, not crime stats. All they really prove is that the police is racially profiling Romanians, and ergo anyone defending Farage is at best speaking out of their arses or at worst is being racist).

That's not an "ergo" at all. Being arrest stats rather than conviction stats mean they tell part of a picture and not the whole picture, not that they're "speaking out of their arses". You can make allowances for a police force racially profiling (which is a lot harder to do for Eastern Europeans than, say, Blacks or Asians, for obvious reasons) but, over 1000% higher?
 
In other news, this Charles-Putin stuff is silly as hell. Firstly, he's not exactly wrong. And secondly, it was a private conversation. I mean maybe he should be a little more careful, but still, it's not like the British ambassador to Russia said it at a gala or something.
 

pulsemyne

Member
In other news, this Charles-Putin stuff is silly as hell. Firstly, he's not exactly wrong. And secondly, it was a private conversation. I mean maybe he should be a little more careful, but still, it's not like the British ambassador to Russia said it at a gala or something.

It wasn't really any worse than what Hilary Clinton said and she's probably going to be americas next president if she runs.
 

kitch9

Banned
You don't get it I think. What I am saying is that opening up unlimited immigration from a country where the average national wage is around a third of our own is going to attract criminality. The numbers, so far, support this view. There was no need to add Romania to the EU or remove transitional controls on immigration until such time when their GDP per capita has reached a level comparable to other Eastern European countries. The EU acted rashly by moving to add Romania to the EU and by not having a longer transitional period so their income levels could adjust to being in the EU.

If I were a Romanian criminal, why would I stay in Romania where there is a lower amount of wealth? Why not go and ply my trade in Britain where there is significantly more wealth.

I am not saying we should ban all immigration to Romania, putting them into the points system makes sense and it would ensure that criminals aren't allowed in.

Unless you are suggesting there are no criminals in Romania I think we can accept that being a criminal in this country is far more lucrative than being a criminal in Romania. If we accept that is true and we accept that we have freedom of movement within the EU, then the please give me the logical conclusion.

As for my background, believe me I have been stopped plenty of times entering the country and when entering the US. I was also stopped by the police during that idiotic stop and search for immigrants or terrorists. I understand your concerns, but I don't see how putting transitional immigration controls onto a country where the GDP per capita is significantly lower than our own is the same as treating black people like criminals or brown people like terrorists. There is compelling evidence to suggest that the disparity in incomes between our two nations is attracting criminality but there is no evidence that all black people are criminals or all brown people are terrorists.

The difference is very clear. Again, I will repeat that I do not believe that all Romanians are criminals or that I believe that being Romanian means that they are more likely to be criminals and if I were to go to Romania I am certain I would be right. Please explainto me why you believe that rreintroducing transitional immigration controls while the Romanian economy catches up to the rest of the EU is somehow a fascist view?

When you are arguing the point you are making its quite common to receive a hyperbolic straw man argument back.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Public-spirited as I am, I gave one of my customers a lift to the polling station. Even after they said they were voting UKIP. Shall be gutted if UKIP wins by that vote though.

Meanwhile, on the Romanian/German thing I think it's being whipped up way too much in this thread. zomg, with his analytic head on, has come up with a rationalistic argument for one over the other that is way away from being racist but I don't think the argument holds water in itself. There's a bunch of socioeconomic facts, and there's a bunch of unruly immigration rules, and there's a whole bunch of immigrants but it is all getting twisted way out of proportion on both sides. And incidentally, I have a family of Romanians living next door to and over the shop and they are perfectly nice people except the 12-year-old is rather heavy-footed. In regards to the criminal element, I'd prefer we did more with the European arrest warrant and with criminal checks in immigration rather than waste time going on about national/racial stereotypes. But that's really all I want to say about it.

Back to topic, I really can't let this go:

The main difference for me is that a public company is not out to make money, their goal is improve the service for the 'customer'. Private companies on the other hand are always out to make money and squeeze every last bit out of their respective companies.

That's a political mantra rather than fact. Motives run the whole range from compassion, customer service, easy life, not rocking the boat, avarice, fear, callings-from-god, making a fast buck, power-craziness, kowtowing to corporate or political masters in every organisation everywhere. Everywhere there are sticklers, cheats, carers and criminals.

It is just plain false to claim the only the public sector (and all the public sector) is motivated by service to customers and that only the private sector (and all the private sector) is motivated by personal or corporate profit. Or indeed, that these are mutually exclusive things.

For public sector examples, yesterday evening I had a 3-hour meeting with a refreshingly frank local councillor who explained straight out that the vast immovable bulk of the local council officers have no interest in anything but keeping the status quo. For example, Stafford Hospital. For example BT - did it somehow become less customer-focussed when it was privatised? That's not what the customer saw, the customer saw services improve massively.

Besides, where there is a reasonable amount of competition, private companies care too. They have to, because if they do not keep their customers then somebody else will snitch them. I'm successful in my business because I have the best bead shop for 100 miles, I go the extra distance for customers, I'm specially favourable to old ladies, patient husbands, wheelchairs, give customers lifts to polling stations/tescos etc.

Now if you are even more of a grumpy old sod than I am you might attribute that to raw naked capitalism, but it isn't. I am a nice guy who happens to earn his living in the private sector and I kind of resent being told by some politician that private sector = bad.

Admittedly, this sort of falls down when there is anything approaching a monopoly. Because then (in the private sector) gouging the customers takes hold - for example French water companies and many others, and then (in the public sector) satisfying the bureaucracy takes hold - witness pretty well any public sector organisation anywhere, NHS is a prime example, but so are local councils. And neither of these are good for customers.

From personal experience, way back when I was a consultant long time ago, I could do very significant turnrounds in private sector businesses in about 7 days (which irritated the hell out of my bosses who would have preferred probably that I milked the man-hours). Public sector, you're talking a six-month minimum, because for all the management grades nobody is actually responsible for doing anything.


Lots of especially infrastructure services require very very long term investment strategies, as money spent now will only have a positive effect in 10, 15 or 20 years. That is not the kind of time scale privately held companies can or want to work on. Resulting in a serious lack of long term funding in order to please the quarterly numbers. The best thing about that for them is. If these investments stay out and shit hits the fan in 10 or 15 years, they have made their money go bust and the tax payer is left to pick up the pieces.

Sure. But there's nothing to prevent the government writing a contract that separates the capital investment from the service delivery - except that they'd probably do it badly (see: railways, all the NHS and courts PFI stuff).

I suggest you watch Water Makes Money as an illustrative example of how privatisation of water has worked (or not) in France.

Problems with the privatisation of a "natural monopoly" is no reason to claim in general that the public sector cares or that the private sector doesn't. It is a good argument against creating monopolies in the first place (which largely happens by taking them into the public sector).


It's a big complicated thing, but the "public sector=good v private sector = bad" doesn't even come close to descrbing it.
 
Public-spirited as I am, I gave one of my customers a lift to the polling station. Even after they said they were voting UKIP. Shall be gutted if UKIP wins by that vote though.

Meanwhile, on the Romanian/German thing I think it's being whipped up way too much in this thread. zomg, with his analytic head on, has come up with a rationalistic argument for one over the other that is way away from being racist but I don't think the argument holds water in itself. There's a bunch of socioeconomic facts, and there's a bunch of unruly immigration rules, and there's a whole bunch of immigrants but it is all getting twisted way out of proportion on both sides. And incidentally, I have a family of Romanians living next door to and over the shop and they are perfectly nice people except the 12-year-old is rather heavy-footed. In regards to the criminal element, I'd prefer we did more with the European arrest warrant and with criminal checks in immigration rather than waste time going on about national/racial stereotypes. But that's really all I want to say about it.

From what I understand, by opting out of the Schengen Zone we do not have access to a certain, pretty significant pan-European crime list thingymajig.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
From what I understand, by opting out of the Schengen Zone we do not have access to a certain, pretty significant pan-European crime list thingymajig.

Yeah, I think so.

Sorry (to all of you) for long rant above, but this public=good private=bad thing really gets my goat.
 
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