Nicktendo86
Member
Can I ask why are they quitting and what could Give do to change their minds? Genuinely curious curious Galvanise 
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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
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StealthGoblin
Banned
Can I ask why are they quitting and what could Give do to change their minds? Genuinely curious curious Galvanise
Too much change all at once and teachers feel that they aren't being listened to. Keep in mind I can only really speak of Primary Education as that is what I am qualified for.
- There isn't a lot of money floating around in Primary Schools so the new pay structure means teachers have to do even more to get a pay rise. Headteachers are expecting us to do more and more things that are not in our contracts to get our modest pay rise each year.
- Basic starting pay is too low. We are well behind what we should be getting paid as we had a pay freeze for years but are expected to do more work. I'm actually £2834 worse off because of all the pay freezes and a cap.
- The new Curriculum is coming in in a fragmented way. Year 2 and 6 stay on the old system whereas everyone else has to switch to the new one.
- The way we assess the abiliity of children is becoming more fragmented. Levels are no longer required yet they still want us to have children making accelerated progress. How are we meant to demonstrate this without the fine-levelling system we use? What happens when a child joins our school (our school has a high turnover due to poverty etc) that has been assessed on a totally different system that is incompatible with ours?
- The pensions are cack now. One of the only major benefits to being a teacher was that you'd work your balls off and get a good pension at the end of it all.
- Gove loves the Scandanavian system and repeatedly beats us over the head with it. The difference being that in Scandanavia education is not politicised and teachers are trusted to get on with it. In addition, children begin school at a later age. How are we meant to emulate this system when none of the variables match that of their system?
- Ofsted seem to change their minds weekly for what they want to see. Our schools are contorting themselves to please an erratic Ofsted instead of focusing on providing a consistently high level of education to children. I spend hours a week modifying things to please them. I am the subject leader for Science, Computing, e-Safety and I manage the school website. I am given a list every other Friday by the head telling me updates/changes I need to make. In addition to this I teach Year 2 (a SATs year) and have parents in my class to regularly do heroin, coke, smuggle guns etc and I have to deal with all the police calls, social service visits, broken children, endless meetings with the SENCOs etc. I don't get paid a penny extra for dealing with any of that. There is not enough money to go around. My girlfriend comes home on occasion and just cries because of the shite we are put through.
- The constant changes to paperwork means all of these Holidays I'm meant to get just gives me more free time to do the paperwork. I'm sitting here at the moment with 26 reports to write and 180 other pieces of paperwork to do. In my Summer six weaks break I spend at least 2 of them in school sorting things out and maybe a few more days at home preparing for the next school year. Christmas is stressful as well. I only really get 6 days out of the Easter break to myself.
- The inclusive education policy the government like means that children that should be at special schools are at mainstream education schools. I have a child in my class whose parents both went to a special school, he is Autistic, violent, swears in context, regularly draws blood from his 1:1 teaching assistant etc. No-one seems to get that he is having a detrimental effect on every other child in the class. We can't expel him. That isn't allowed. We have to provide a managed move to a specialist school? Why haven't we done this? None of them will take him because they are all full up.
Among other things. They don't tell you these things on teacher training courses. Or in the media.
In fact, the media love to quote the DFE and say 'Teachers striking will inconvenience parents and damage the reputation of the profession'. They don't really quote teachers. They never really want the detail as to why teachers are disgruntled and leaving the profession en masse. We are lazy.
JonathanEx
Member
So here's a question, and it's sort of an idiot's level one... Last few days, a lot of MPs anon quoted slagging off their party leader and saying they should go. Now excluding the "did they really or is it made up by the papers", how do they feel... It will help?
For instance, ditching Miliband. Like maybe there's the greater good thing, but how sure are they that will pay off that it's worth more quotes about Labour being bad in the papers, makes the party look bad, etc. Or there's probably something about that mindset of politics I'm missing.
But then again the whole leadership challenge is part of the follow-up to all local elections. Still.
For instance, ditching Miliband. Like maybe there's the greater good thing, but how sure are they that will pay off that it's worth more quotes about Labour being bad in the papers, makes the party look bad, etc. Or there's probably something about that mindset of politics I'm missing.
But then again the whole leadership challenge is part of the follow-up to all local elections. Still.
Nicktendo86
Member
Seems like the main problems can be boiled down to two main factors; pay & conditions and bureaucracy with some issues specific to your school with problem parents/kids. Real shitty situation, I really feel for you.
The thing about the autistic child, am I wrong in saying it was labour who cut a lot of special schools as they were keen to get kids into mainstream schools? Sure I read something about it years ago but I could be mistaken!
The thing about the autistic child, am I wrong in saying it was labour who cut a lot of special schools as they were keen to get kids into mainstream schools? Sure I read something about it years ago but I could be mistaken!
by calling for their head they use the media to put pressure on the party leader, post-election is a perfect opportunity because of the media scrutiny, in the hopes that in order to defend himself from the attacks he'll move towards their position on how the party should be run. they figure the short-term cost of negative stories is outweighed by their ideas being better, or at least more likely to win the next election.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Pay and conditions are a massive part of it. Almost everyone (barring the shite teachers) is criminally underpaid. I work at least 12 hours a day. I'm at my desk at 7AM and don't leave school until 5:45PM. I still do a bit of work when I get home. I've worked out I earn about 39/40p an hour per child I teach (before tax). I'd much rather do childcare! Ha.
Yeah there has not been the investment in special schools. Its harming the child in question and damaging the education of the other children significantly. Its also a case of school resources. Someone has to be employed to look after said child and could be deployed elsewhere. Everyone likes that child but everyone knows he should not be in mainstream education. Inclusivity is lovely on paper and a utopian idea but in practice it is a nightmare that harms the child, their classmates and the school as a whole.
I wouldn't assume these problems are isolated to the school I am at. The school my mother is a teaching assistant at has 27 teachers. 11 are leaving this summer. The next closest school to my one is losing ~40% of their staff.
If you think I'm a bit downbeat, pessimistic etc I can assure you I'm one of the happier ones!
anonymous_abc
Member
Not sure how many 'counts' are com in, but whowa...
if labour comes in behind the conservatives and the greens ahead of the lib deems.... damn...
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
Maybe this will be the wake up call to the current parties that they are out of touch with the voters who want meaningful change and representation.
WayneMorse
Banned
I almost feel bad for Clegg to be honest. Almost...
PJV3
Member
I am absolutely delighted by the destruction of the LibDem's, they have earnt it.
I'm surprised Labour didn't do worse in the Euro elections, I understand Miliband and his position on a referendum, but one needs to happen just to get the boil lanced. If he wants a shot at a majority he needs to shift position quickly.
I'm surprised Labour didn't do worse in the Euro elections, I understand Miliband and his position on a referendum, but one needs to happen just to get the boil lanced. If he wants a shot at a majority he needs to shift position quickly.
WayneMorse
Banned
I'm a little disappointed they actually managed to hold onto a seat though.
CyclopsRock
Member
I actually quite like how the lib dems have done this last 4 years but it's true that they just don't have a 'target audience' anymore. It's also quite funny that the party that cares most about Europe had one seat.
Also interesting is that UKIP won seats in both Scotland and Wales (and the count in Scotland hasn't finished yet).
That said, I still think they'll struggle to get more than a handful of MPs in 2015.
Also interesting is that UKIP won seats in both Scotland and Wales (and the count in Scotland hasn't finished yet).
That said, I still think they'll struggle to get more than a handful of MPs in 2015.
It's just the Western Isles in Scotland to go though, no? Doubt that will make a big difference. I think if the SNP & Greens had been a bit more supportive of each other then the Greens would have had that last seat in Scotland as it doesn't seem to have been much between them & UKIP. Greens siding with Labour on the Alex Neil vote last week might have damaged them in the eyes of any sympathetic voters in strong SNP areas though.
StealthGoblin
Banned
If any of the 'big two' party just came out and said
'We will be building 500,000 new homes that'll cost between £100k and 200k' in the run up to the next general election it would do well for them. The jobs market is recovering, now we need house prices to go down.
A fair amount of anxiety in my area is that there is nowhere for young people to move to.
I didn't vote in the EU elections because no one party had anything to say that spoke to me.
I can see why Farage is gaining support though.
UKIP won't last. I firmly believe this will be the strongest turnout they'll ever get. I didn't vote for them (I didn't vote for anyone as I have total apathy towards the system at this point) but I do hope that the bigger parties will actually take working class people's views into account now, not just say that they are.
I do wonder, will Nigel Farage be on the podiums for the TV debates next year or will they stick to Cameron, Clegg, Miliband?
I would say I learn conservative but I really want them to deliver on this EU referendum (or at the very least take back substantial powers). Oh, and Gove is a wanker.
'We will be building 500,000 new homes that'll cost between £100k and 200k' in the run up to the next general election it would do well for them. The jobs market is recovering, now we need house prices to go down.
A fair amount of anxiety in my area is that there is nowhere for young people to move to.
I didn't vote in the EU elections because no one party had anything to say that spoke to me.
I can see why Farage is gaining support though.
- He speaks like a normal person (not necessarily the content of his speech, but the sound and swagger). Everyone else we've listened to for years sounds like a toff. Farage sounds like a bloke you'd meet at a beer festival, organising a local fete etc.
- He sounds like the only person making a decent enough stand against immigration. I don't believe most UKIP voters want 'the gates shut' permanently, but I do think they want them shut until we can sort the recovery out.
- A significant amount of people are fucked off at the EU. Whether the EU are doing good things or bad things, people in my area dislike the fact that a lot of decisions aren't in our own hands.
UKIP won't last. I firmly believe this will be the strongest turnout they'll ever get. I didn't vote for them (I didn't vote for anyone as I have total apathy towards the system at this point) but I do hope that the bigger parties will actually take working class people's views into account now, not just say that they are.
I do wonder, will Nigel Farage be on the podiums for the TV debates next year or will they stick to Cameron, Clegg, Miliband?
I would say I learn conservative but I really want them to deliver on this EU referendum (or at the very least take back substantial powers). Oh, and Gove is a wanker.
Oh he'll be in the debates, the BBC have invested too much in him to leave him out. He'll be presenting Top Gear & Newsnight soon enough.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27557547
Desperate, ridiculous study from Westminster's Treasury Department...
1) They assume 180 new government departments needed in an Independent Scotland, when there are 24 in the Westminster government.
2) They forget that most of the necessary departments and infrastructure already exists.
Desperate, ridiculous study from Westminster's Treasury Department...
1) They assume 180 new government departments needed in an Independent Scotland, when there are 24 in the Westminster government.
2) They forget that most of the necessary departments and infrastructure already exists.
StealthGoblin
Banned
I'm largely keeping an open mind about Scottish independence now.
I do however want Salmond and Sturgeon to sit down, look into the camera and break down the costs and things involved in making Scotland independant.
It seems like the Treasury is doing research, which may or may not be flawed, but Salmond and Sturgeon's defence is basically 'that's shit, fuck Westminster'.
I don't think either side of the debate is being entirely honest with the electorate.
I do however want Salmond and Sturgeon to sit down, look into the camera and break down the costs and things involved in making Scotland independant.
It seems like the Treasury is doing research, which may or may not be flawed, but Salmond and Sturgeon's defence is basically 'that's shit, fuck Westminster'.
I don't think either side of the debate is being entirely honest with the electorate.
I thought that had already been debunked in the press yesterday as mostly nonsense, why on earth are the BBC running it today?
http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...e-treasury-scare-story-doesnt-add-up.24313722
Have you read the white paper? I don't think it's quite broken down to point of exact costs, but I believe it does give some indication of how things would play out if the SNP were elected as the post independence government.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Do the general public read white papers? They need to explain their case in a way that people understand.
While building 500k homes would be good for people like me who are looking to get an even break entering the housing market, I'd imagine the short sighted nature of most folks would just mean that those millions of homeowners who are currently hearing that their house value just went up by 8% would see home building promises as a threat to their wealth.
In this case, yes, they be giving this document at least a cursory glance. This is an important vote for the future of the country. Salmond & Sturgeon are often at open forums to discuss their views and answer question, if you're undecided it's worth looking to find out if there is such an event near you.
And anyway, this isn't purely about the SNP, a new, Scottish labour government could be elected post indy.
The EU just needs to make a few basic changes and I think most would be happy with it.
Perhaps, though that depends on what the end-point the balanced mass of the media want to achieve is.
I mean for me, I'm more in favour of the EU being the "shell" that delineates Europe from the world. Foreign policy and diplomacy, defence, external trade... I'm happy for non-Europeans to deal exclusively with the EU rather than member states. The stuff that happens within the shell? I'm less interested in, though I do generally like the policies that get agreed in Europe.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
The results were largely as expected. Labour and the Conservatives did slightly better than I'd have thought, and I am shocked the Lib Dems held on to a seat.
The EU definitely has been the subject of ridiculous criticism in the media, with very little to say on its defence. In terms of human right and workers' rights it is absolutely brilliant and that would be my main motive to oppose leaving. All UK governments since at least Thatcher have done little to prove that they wouldn't bow down to corporations and erode workers' rights.
The Euro itself, terrible idea, obviously. I'm not a huge fan of the movement of people within the zone, only because it discriminates against those groups from outside the EU zone.
The EU definitely has been the subject of ridiculous criticism in the media, with very little to say on its defence. In terms of human right and workers' rights it is absolutely brilliant and that would be my main motive to oppose leaving. All UK governments since at least Thatcher have done little to prove that they wouldn't bow down to corporations and erode workers' rights.
The Euro itself, terrible idea, obviously. I'm not a huge fan of the movement of people within the zone, only because it discriminates against those groups from outside the EU zone.
PJV3
Member
If you mean structures, then common ground could probably be found.
If you mean policy, then I don't see how. The EU is already a bitter pill for many on the left. The UKIP/Tory vision of having all the free market stuff but none of the employment and social protection is a non starter.
The idea of having conservative philosophy enshrined in a referendum is very dodgy, In or out is a simpler but less troublesome question. The AV referendum is a prime example of why the Tories shouldn't be trusted on the issue.
The main issue is immigration, a few simple changes to that and most would be appeased.
PJV3
Member
If it was just about that then I wouldn't be too bothered, as I say, what worries the people and what the people backing the Conservatives worry about are probably very different.
As for immigration, I hope people on the left remember it's more about how people are treated than the numbers we let in. If it means an end to the rise of the extreme right, the left shouldn't get high and mighty about it.
But how much of the immigration that people really care about is decided at the EU level? I mean Eastern Europeans may have come in relatively large numbers, but I'd imagine UKIP's base are more concerned about Indian, African and Asian immigration where huge cultural differences make integration problematic.
Give a typical UKIP voter the power to determine *where* migrants came from (out of the bigger sources) but not the volume, and I truly believe you'd see the a far paler mix...
I think the public has conflated two very different kinds of immigration. On the one hand you have Eastern Europeans of whom most will earn some money, stay a few years and then return home, and on the other you have the immigrants from the developing world who are looking to stay permanently. They're scared of the cultural implications of the latter, but are turning to a party that can only really influence the former.
lensoftruth
Member
Eh? It's the Romanians, polish and the like people don't want. Asians, Indians and africans are very rarely an issue for people.
The EDL focus on Asians under the guise of criticizing Muslim extremism.
lensoftruth
Member
Nah, they think they're all Indians and all Asians are chinese.
I'm not sure what you mean. The point is that the EDL focus on 'brown people' rather than immigrants from Eastern Europe.
Nicktendo86
Member
Was a fascinating night, stories and things to keep an eye on everywhere.
The rise of ukip - obviously the biggest story, could have been seen coming a mile away but labour and some pollsters seemed to have their head in the sand. I think they picked up votes for two reasons, anti EU and as a protest. They will still get a lot of votes in the GE but not to this degree, when ukip voters think that a vote to ukip could mean Miliband as PM they might think again. I think the Tories will be pushed by ukip's result and expect to see tougher policy on immigration and more detail on renegotiation in the EU in the coming weeks/months.
Labour - not a good night for them. As the main opposition you would expect them to have a healthy lead over the Tories, they don't. This poll gave them a 1.5% lead, the local elections gave them 2%. At this stage that is no where near good enough. In fact, if it wasn't for London, they would have came third.
The tories - again not a good night, but as the main party in government their vote held up pretty well, only losing 4% on last time. As I say I expect them to lurch a but further right to combat ukip, I would like to see them do more to combat labour and sit on their lawn though. Housebuilding, enforcing minimum wage, really go for the labour jugular. As an aside this is the first time ever they have come third in a national poll!
Lib dems - devastating. Positioned themselves as the party of in, lost all but one mep. They have taken the brunt of the damage, unlike others here I am not gloating and happy though. They were always a joke party, could promise rainbows and kittens for all as they had no chance of being elected, but the last result meant they had to step up and do a lot of things they knew would make them unpopular, and should be applauded for that.
Edit: in a weird way, I think David Cameron's position has been strengthened. There was a big anti EU vote last night and I think his ability to renegotiate our position in the EU will be improved.
The rise of ukip - obviously the biggest story, could have been seen coming a mile away but labour and some pollsters seemed to have their head in the sand. I think they picked up votes for two reasons, anti EU and as a protest. They will still get a lot of votes in the GE but not to this degree, when ukip voters think that a vote to ukip could mean Miliband as PM they might think again. I think the Tories will be pushed by ukip's result and expect to see tougher policy on immigration and more detail on renegotiation in the EU in the coming weeks/months.
Labour - not a good night for them. As the main opposition you would expect them to have a healthy lead over the Tories, they don't. This poll gave them a 1.5% lead, the local elections gave them 2%. At this stage that is no where near good enough. In fact, if it wasn't for London, they would have came third.
The tories - again not a good night, but as the main party in government their vote held up pretty well, only losing 4% on last time. As I say I expect them to lurch a but further right to combat ukip, I would like to see them do more to combat labour and sit on their lawn though. Housebuilding, enforcing minimum wage, really go for the labour jugular. As an aside this is the first time ever they have come third in a national poll!
Lib dems - devastating. Positioned themselves as the party of in, lost all but one mep. They have taken the brunt of the damage, unlike others here I am not gloating and happy though. They were always a joke party, could promise rainbows and kittens for all as they had no chance of being elected, but the last result meant they had to step up and do a lot of things they knew would make them unpopular, and should be applauded for that.
Edit: in a weird way, I think David Cameron's position has been strengthened. There was a big anti EU vote last night and I think his ability to renegotiate our position in the EU will be improved.
Nope it's EU immigration, our entry requirements for the rest of the world are currently horrendous to the point it's effectively a closed door.
We are too busy worrying about the numbers of toilet cleaners, plasterers and potato pickers coming from the EU that we are turning away the best brains from around the world on the most pathetic of technicalities.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
This is one thing I'd agree with UKIP on. The current immigration system discriminates against non-EU immigrants.
Of course, I don't actually trust UKIP to deliver on that.
CyclopsRock
Member
It's a better place to have a referendum than, say, Scotland. For us, it's 'Stay in Reformed EU' vs 'Leave', and for Scots it's 'Stay in reformed UK(devomax)' vs 'Leave' - the difference is, with the former we will know what that reform entails, the good voting people of Scotland won't; the Devo Max negotiations will occur after a referendum, which seems barmy for several reasons.
In my continuing series on 'CR Gets On A Plane', I just landed in flip flops and shorts at Gatwick. A poor decision. I felt like such an idiot, I just had to swap to trainers on the train. Still, its so wonderful to be back in the bosom of London, and its sweet, loving embrace.
CyclopsRock
Member
It does, but that's a totally artificial discrimination based on the 200,000 target.
So true. Immigration has become such an issue that the UK is doing massive damage to its future. The US is currently in an arms race to keep as many of the Chinese and Indian students who go over there to get their masters/doctorates/etc as possible, but instead of trying to stay, more and more are being attracted back home with lucrative offers.
We need to become a player in this game and steal the best and the brightest. Fuck it, staple residence permits to all qualifying post-grad certs.
That might be the reality, but I sincerely doubt that's the perception among UKIP voters.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Pretty much. I think he can say with confidence now that the uk would vote to leave the eu unless he campaigns against it, so it really just depends on whether other countries want to keep us in for our tax take or kick us out for our constant complaints!
I'd be most happy with a much-reduced CAP budget and a total elimination of the embarrassing, expensive absurdity of going to Strasbourg and other measures to reduce waste. Something linking mep's salaries to how much time they spend voting in the house would be nice (would be great to have that here too, people like Gordon Brown are an embarrassment)
I'm a bit cynical about "powers being returned home" given that on a lot of the things that the eu has sovereignty on they tend to get a better deal for the people then we generally get out of parliament.
Yep, agreed. It appears that they both just opted to go on the offensive against UKIP instead. Which in turn, gave them even more publicity than they already had. Thanks to the biased coverage, especially from the BBC. But despite not getting a seat, it was the best result that the Greens have had in Scotland, so they can take some consolation in that.
One thing I don't get is UKIP's primary motivation for votes was to get out of the EU. But wouldn't they have to win the general election in 2015 to have such powers? And I really don't see them winning that one, when it comes around.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
I bet. they've effectively kept a full tory government in power that wouldn't have a mandate otherwise.
CyclopsRock
Member
Mandate shmandate. The Tories got a higher voteshare nationally in 2010 than Labour did in 2005. A quirk of our Westminster system meant Labour got a majority and the Tories didn't, and another quirk meant that they could enter coalition with the Lib Dems. Que sera sera. A majority in the HoC is when you can pass legislation, and this group of MP's can pass legislation.
What I meant was that the things the Lib Dems have brought to the table - higher income tax threshold, several cabinet members etc - have been better than had the Tories had a majority.
Nicktendo86
Member
The biggest travesty of this parliament is that the lib dems blocked boundary changes, Cameron should have played hardball much more. It is a joke how much the current boundaries favour Labour.
PJV3
Member
How about stuff passed outside the coalition agreement such as NHS reform, or the ridiculous AV referendum. The tories only wish to reform what suits them, it has nothing to do with democracy and fairness.
FPTP sucks, with the lack of choice in UK politics it's a disaster, no party should have carte blanche because they get 40%.
The Labour bias sucks, but it's just one sucky thing amongst many in this country.
Nicktendo86
Member
My god Nick Clegg looks like a broken man today.
WayneMorse
Banned
My god.
PJV3
Member
My god.
He's probably been reading the comments at LibDemVoice, he's as popular as a turd ice cream.
The useless liar seems to be a frequent opinion.