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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

Suairyu

Banned
Mr. Sam said:
As a student myself, I'm so very tired of students.
They protested loudly up and down the street outside of the hospice shop I volunteer at. Like they think shouting loudly actually makes a lick of fucking difference. Even when I was a student I hated students.

Send a goddamn letter to your local MP and stop ruining everyone else's day; it's more productive and kinder on our ears.

Sneds said:
The last time the Lib Dems had the option to form a coalition government, they turned down the offer as they realised the trade-off for power would be compromising too many of their ideals. That Nick Clegg hasn't received an order for a vote of no confidence yet fucking astounds me, because as far as I can see the party is just a rotting corpse of something beautiful now.
 
I don't particularly mind the terrorising of Conservative HQ, the storming of buildings or the funny placards...

what gets my goat is when they allow themselves to be interviewed on TV and don't have basic facts straight. One girl on C4 news saying she wouldn't be able to afford to go to University. You will, you'll just be paying more than the current lot for it afterwards... complain about the cut in University funding and increased fees by all means, but don't make out its a policy of exclusion.

That age group pissed me off while I was at University as well... I was in Uni as the Iraq war was kicking off. Everyone was angry and that would have been fair enough but no-one could articulate why they were angry without embarrassing themselves with their lack of knowledge and spewing generic angst and bullshit.
 

Suairyu

Banned
radioheadrule83 said:
I don't particularly mind the terrorising of Conservative HQ, the storming of buildings or the funny placards....
Really? Because that shit is more asinine than mere lack of facts. I can abide ignorant people shouting loudly - they always have and always will, as is their right - but building storming is some revolution shit. Jumping the gun just makes it harder for us if we ever actually have need for a political upheaval. Like, in the year 21XX, it could be just like Logan's Run and we contemplate warfare and storming the Tory HQ but then we decide we'd look like fucking students so we best not.
 
Suairyu said:
Really? Because that shit is more asinine than mere lack of facts. I can abide ignorant people shouting loudly - they always have and always will, as is their right - but building storming is some revolution shit. Jumping the gun just makes it harder for us if we ever actually have need for a political upheaval. Like, in the year 21XX, it could be just like Logan's Run and we contemplate warfare and storming the Tory HQ but then we decide we'd look like fucking students so we best not.

:lol touché, you make a powerful point

My political bias makes me more forgiving in this particular instance I guess
 
avaya said:
Graduate tax is fair.

You only pay if you work.
You only repay back student loans if you work. And unlike the graduate tax, you aren't stuck with it for the rest of your working career. Talk about a disincentive to aspiration. If any future government is ever stupid enough to bring it in, I certainly hope they don't apply it retrospectively.

University should be seen as an investment, not a natural right or a rite of passage open to any old idiot who clearly isn't cut out for academia. So given the shortfall universities face, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to ask students to contribute more to their education. At the end of the day, if you are not willing to pay £9,000 a year, then don't. It is as simple as that.
 

Empty

Member
looking at the front pages, as predicted they all have pictures of the window being broken with fire behind and focus on the violence. le sigh.
 

Chinner

Banned
blazinglord said:
You only repay back student loans if you work. And unlike the graduate tax, you aren't stuck with it for the rest of your working career. Talk about a disincentive to aspiration. If any future government is ever stupid enough to bring it in, I certainly hope they don't apply it retrospectively.

University should be seen as an investment, not a natural right or a rite of passage open to any old idiot who clearly isn't cut out for academia. So given the shortfall universities face, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to ask students to contribute more to their education. At the end of the day, if you are not willing to pay £9,000 a year, then don't. It is as simple as that.
you're right poor people shouldn't get to go to university.

le sigh.
 

Meadows

Banned
I have to put up with this stupidity on facebook:

XXX XXX: wonders what the fuck is David Cameron doing?! Why should British students get fees increased so foreign students can come over on the cheap?

There are so many things wrong with this statement. I just blocked their messages because I cba with that kind of stupidity. Especially when I'm going out with a foreign student, who by the way were probably the reason it stayed cheap this long (she pays £15,000 a year)
 
Chinner said:
you're right poor people shouldn't get to go to university.

le sigh.

Poor people can go to University and pay if they become affluent... not paying a high rate if they don't succeed of course. The only obstacle to them is if their poor background disadvantages them in getting the points necessary to attend University in the first place... and that is a problem that is more difficult to overcome.

The proposed system itself doesn't prejudice itself against those from poor backgrounds in any way... at least as far as I'm aware.


Meadows said:
I have to put up with this stupidity on facebook:

XXX XXX: wonders what the fuck is David Cameron doing?! Why should British students get fees increased so foreign students can come over on the cheap?

There are so many things wrong with this statement. I just blocked their messages because I cba with that kind of stupidity. Especially when I'm going out with a foreign student, who by the way were probably the reason it stayed cheap this long (she pays £15,000 a year)

Typical British xenophobia. Fuck facts, lets just choose to believe everyone foreign has it better than us. I know foreign students myself... thats where Universitys make all of their money really.
 
Chinner said:
you're right poor people shouldn't get to go to university.

le sigh.
Firstly, apparently poor students were not put off by the introduction of £3,000 tuition fees despite claims that they would be. I don't imagine that any poor students who consider the long-term benefits of having a degree would be put off by further increases. Secondly, student loans are available to everyone regardless of income. But poorer students are entitled to extra means-tested grants - I haven't heard anything to suggest that this would change. Thus I am not seeing any need for further preferential treatment for poor students at the expense of middle class students who will also face debt repayments given the extreme unlikelihood that their parents would be able to afford to shell out £27,000 on tuition fees alone.

A final point worth making is the saturation of graduates in the job market at the moment and the amount of worthless degrees that is being churned out - perhaps less people going to universities and more people thinking twice about spending £27,000 on a mickey mouse degree wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
 

Empty

Member
radioheadrule83 said:
The proposed system itself doesn't prejudice itself against those from poor backgrounds in any way... at least as far as I'm aware.

yeah, plus from what i understand poorer students will pay significantly less back of their loan each year under the new system. obviously they pay back for longer, but the idea is that it's meant to be more progressive as a result of that change. on top of that there is an increase in the maintenance grant of 10% for those from families earning less than £25,000 and more scholarships. so i'd say its more than just not prejudiced on a system level.
 

Meadows

Banned
Student-protesters-wave-f-026.jpg


I play synth, they all play synth
 

ceramic

Member
To the people stating that university education is not a right and therefore students should accept the tripling of their debt burden and keep quiet due to it being a personal choice:

Is university education, realistically, really a choice in today's world?

In previous generations a degree was not a requirement to enter the middle classes. You could get there through education paid for by the government.

The problem is, though, that to stand a reasonable chance of getting into the middle classes today it is increasingly becoming essential to hold a degree.

Therefore, for students to even get to the same starting point their parents enjoyed they are now increasingly required to dive heavily into debt as the government is no longer willing to help.

It also means that those previous generations who went to university not only received their education for free, but also received degrees that were higher in value.

...and that's another issue. Because degrees have replaced GCSEs and A/O-Levels as the 'entry level' education, they are far more prevalent now and therefore comparatively worth much less than degrees in the past.

A degree no longer signifies that the graduate will become high earners, it merely ensures that they will have a realistic chance of finding a job in the middle class at all.

Plans that some posters are dreaming up to reduce the number of university educated individuals also seems silly as well given that countries across the world are increasing the number of university educated people.

And how has the middle class fared in the last few decades when it comes to income relative to the richest and poorest? In the United States, the wages of the middle classes has been stagnant for the last thirty years where the richest have soared. What position is the UK middle class in when compared to thirty years ago? If their position in society has weakened then this adds other issues.

If the middle class has weakened relatively, then the implications, when taking everything else into account, are that that todays generation now spends longer in education and incurs increasingly enormous levels of debt to get into a middle class that that is weaker today in relative terms to thirty years ago with a degree that is indistinguishable to everyone elses and gives them little edge in the workplace.

Plus, as I understand it the cuts that have been made are such that these fees will largely cover what was cut, and not increase the overall levels of investment. So students will be paying triple the amount for the same education (I'm 99% sure I read this is the case, but I can't find the page where I got the information so feel free to correct me if i am wrong).

On a personal note, like the other poster on the last page said, I do not feel like my degree was worth what I paid for it now, let alone what 2012s students will be expected to pay.

Keep in mind that i'm not speaking from a position of authority for most the part, I am just laying out an alternative way of thinking of this issue. If I am wrong on any or all of this feel free to correct me; i'd rather be wrong than ignorant.


EDIT: And the fact that those that fare worse pay less and those who fare better pay more is irrelevent in a sense. Everyone who goes to university expects to do well and earn lots regardless of whether or not it pans out in reality. Nobody goes through the hassle of getting a degree to fail. The fact of the matter is that in the ideal lives these students envision for themselves, the debt they are to be faced with has just tripled. They no doubt see this as an albatross across their necks, weighing them down and acting as another obstacle to their hopes, dreams and aspirations.
 
Well to them I'd say 'Welcome to the Real World'

That's what life is. A series of hurdles Albatrosses thrown around your neck while you try and pursue your hopes and dreams. The proposed graduate tax is potentially not a bad thing as long as the repayment thresholds and repayment rates are progressively tiered. In fact, many people could be better off under the new system.

A lot of people who go to University are already middle class -- if your parents own their house, if you can afford to run a car, buy all three consoles and go on holiday once a year - that's middle class in my view. They're hardly slumming it as a proletariat. In better times those kids could walk into a non-specialised office job straight from college if they wanted and earn reasonable money -- University is and should be a means to aspire to more than that.

I disagree 100% that degrees have replaced A levels and GCSEs. Thats ridiculous. They're less exclusive now yes, they're not as powerful, but then - if someone applies themselves, throws their heart into their work, seeks internships/placements and really sells themselves - a degree will still take them far.

While I think its a persons perjorative to do various arts and humanities courses, our priority should be those subjects that will build the kind of knowledge, skills and excellence that will bring in a return for UK PLC and propel is forward as a country. Yes by all means go and do something which might not have as good a return, all knowledge is great, but you have to understand that these things need paying for. Each students University education is an investment and as such, a risk. Why is it abhorrent to people that we run our Universities and this country well - like a good business? We should be investing in our future, I wish that it could all be free and that we didn't have to actually cut investment, but what else are we supposed to do? We have to mitigate our risks, cover our costs and prioritise what we do to invest in the future. The best method of doing that is certainly up for debate, but I personally feel this sense of entitlement we often have is nonsensical. You don't get something for nothing in this life. Its sad but true. That's capitalism.
 

Salazar

Member
Radioheadrule, if they are allowed to decisively fuck with and mash into unrecognisable pieces the notion of universities as anything but engines of economic advancement, you'll never get back anything resembling a salutary compromise in that respect.

Quoting Stefan Collini from the LRB.

It is, incidentally, one of the several dispiriting features of this report that even when it shows an inconsistent twitch of non-market reflexes and recognises that there may be a public interest in making sure that certain subjects are offered and studied, it in effect confines these subjects to science and technology (with a token nod to the possible economic usefulness of some foreign languages). The only social value the report seems able to think of is economic: these subjects contribute directly to the economy, it is alleged, and so we must have them. The Comprehensive Spending Review has reinforced this emphasis on science and technology by maintaining the science budget (which supports research, not teaching) at its present level. Browne implies that other subjects, especially the arts and humanities, are just optional extras. If students are willing to cash in their voucher to study them – perhaps because, for some unexamined reason, they are thought to lead to higher-paid jobs – so be it; but if they’re not, then there’s no public interest in having them. Despite the occasional (very occasional) mention of, say, ‘culture’, the logic of the report’s proposals gives such values no independent standing. Overwhelmingly, the general statements announce, with startling confidence, the real point of higher education: ‘Higher education matters because it drives innovation and economic transformation. Higher education helps to produce economic growth, which in turn contributes to national prosperity.’ And just when you might think there was going to be a glimpse of something broader, your knuckles are smartly rapped: ‘Higher education matters because it transforms the lives of individuals. On graduating, graduates are more likely to be employed, more likely to enjoy higher wages and better job satisfaction, and more likely to find it easier to move from one job to the next.’ This report displays no real interest in universities as places of education; they are conceived of simply as engines of economic prosperity and as agencies for equipping future employees to earn higher salaries.

But although this is what higher education is said to be for, Browne complains that it does not at present fulfil its function very well; it does not ‘meet business needs’. For example: ‘The CBI found that 48 per cent of employers were dissatisfied with the business awareness of the graduates they hired.’ Oh dear! Can it be that some universities may not have a compulsory ‘business awareness day’ each week? Don’t worry, Browne will fix that. Only courses that lead to high-paid jobs will survive, so universities will make sure they provide the graduates that high-paying employers want. And anyway, many students will have developed more business awareness through the experience of seeing how failing businesses are driven to respond to falling market share.

It's worth reading the whole thing. They're turning universities into servants of the not-necessarily-economically-productive student whim you scorn, and hoping, for fuck knows what cynical reason and with fuck knows what grounds, that universities funded according to the distributions of students' choices as opposed to by block funding will turn out ok. They fucking won't. It's a sham.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n21/stefan-collini/brownes-gamble
 

Suairyu

Banned
ceramic said:
Is university education, realistically, really a choice in today's world?
Right now, you have a better chance obtaining a well-paying (but not stupidly well paying) job if you skipped University and just got job experience for four years. There are obvious exceptions, but generally people don't want to hire graduates right now.
 

louis89

Member
radioheadrule83 said:
Typical British xenophobia. Fuck facts, lets just choose to believe everyone foreign has it better than us. I know foreign students myself... thats where Universitys make all of their money really.
Fuck facts, let's just choose to believe only British people are capable of being xenophobic.
 
I've no doubt xenophobia is rampant all over the world... but the idea that johnny foreigner has it better than the UK natives seems to be ignorantly lapped up en masse on subjects from immigration and welfare to University education... and people seem to feel quite proud of themselves voicing that ignorance. Particularly on Facebook (as in Meadow's post - the one which I was responding to). Its bizarre.
 

Jex

Member
blazinglord said:
on a mickey mouse degree wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
You do realize that when you use that turn of phrase, wise people no longer pay attention to your point?
 
You know the way Nintendo just took ownership of the phrase - "Its on like Donkey Kong"? It'd be fun if Disney actually started schools and churned out real Mickey Mouse Degrees
 

Sneds

Member
Salazar said:
It's worth reading the whole thing. They're turning universities into servants of the not-necessarily-economically-productive student whim you scorn, and hoping, for fuck knows what cynical reason and with fuck knows what grounds, that universities funded according to the distributions of students' choices as opposed to by block funding will turn out ok. They fucking won't. It's a sham.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n21/stefan-collini/brownes-gamble

That's a good article. It's not just an issue of rising fees and access to eduction. It's an issue of the importance of education beyond economic utility.
 

gerg

Member
Education is something which, like health, should be valued in and of itself, and not for any affects it may have.
 
Jexhius said:
You do realize that when you use that turn of phrase, wise people no longer pay attention to your point?
What else would a 'wise person' call a degree in surfing or beer making? Or indeed, a degree in media studies that seems to be so popular these days? People who want to work in the media industry would be better served if they skipped university and went straight into work, and worked their way up.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Meadows said:
I have to put up with this stupidity on facebook:

XXX XXX: wonders what the fuck is David Cameron doing?! Why should British students get fees increased so foreign students can come over on the cheap?

Yeah that's stupidity. Don't they know that there's no such thing as a British student?
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
blazinglord said:
People who want to work in the media industry would be better served if they skipped university and went straight into work, and worked their way up.

You could argue the same with any industry.
 
blazinglord said:
What else would a 'wise person' call a degree in surfing or beer making? Or indeed, a degree in media studies that seems to be so popular these days? People who want to work in the media industry would be better served if they skipped university and went straight into work, and worked their way up.

I don't agree with that. Advertising and marketing are arts with theory that must be learned, there are valuable lectures to be had for wouldbe journalists and so forth too. On the practical side - its better to be familiar with photography, filming, editing and the concepts behind the various techniques than to simply try and get yourself employed with little to no knowledge and on-hand experience. I know of plenty of media students in my year who went on to work at ITV / Granada, BBC etc after a media degree.

I do think its one of those courses that loses people along the way though, with not everyone pursuing a career in the media afterwards. I dropped out of a Digital Media Design degree myself because outside of the enjoyable practical element and theory surrounding that, it was all naval gazing marxist bollocks.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
Maybe I'm missing something but whilst I know the "reduced benefits for people who wont work" effort is to appease Maily readers, it's odd that the liberal Guardian commentators seem to be going ape against it. I wouldn't have thought it would've garnered such strong of a reaction, but I guess it's another chance to attack the government so I guess it's all good.
 

Meadows

Banned
I like to keep my friends list on facebook fairly daily mail whore free, so it's on days like this that I'm thankful for Islamic extremism.

Obviously what they're doing is wrong, but they're just trolling, and it's working. People are dumb.
 

Gowans

Member

Empty

Member
yeah. the stunt was likely done deliberately to try and provoke the huge racist reaction so they can lever it as evidence in their 'the west is evil and should be destroyed' narrative and gain support for their cause. unfortunately they are getting what they want from the idiots.
 

Gowans

Member
Empty said:
yeah. the stunt was likely done deliberately to try and provoke the huge racist reaction so they can lever it as evidence in their 'the west is evil and should be destroyed' narrative and gain support for their cause. unfortunately they are getting what they want from the idiots.
Yup :(

I read through that group on FB it's made me sick.
 

curls

Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience 💤
Anyone watching Britain's trillion pound debt on C4?
 

Empty

Member
curls said:
Anyone watching Britain's trillion pound debt on C4?

it's by the guy who did the atrocious 'the great global warming swindle' documentary a few years back. so i certainly won't be watching.
 

Deku

Banned
This tuition issue is highly reminiscent of early 2000's here in BC when the new Liberal government lifted a decade of tuition freezes. I think my tuition costs payable tripled in the 5 years I was on campus.

A lot of whining and 'action' and the Student Union, who naturally would never support a right of centre government regardless of policy, made hallow gestures attacking the party. Which naturally could care less for their votes.


I certainly don't think action like this will engender public support for the students.

If there's a silver lining, students here adjusted and university enrollment continue to go up, not down.
 
That video is mental, I can't believe they didn't get their heads kicked in...

I'm glad I seem to know sane people on facebook etc though... I can't believe some of the comments and pictures in that facebook group. What the fuck is wrong with people?

Today is a day we remember the fallen and celebrate the peace and freedoms they brought us. That freedom is what makes us powerful. We are a free, secular, multi-racial society. Its their right if they want to draw attention to themselves, cause mass outrage and potentially get beaten to death -- we don't need reactionary scum calling for the deportation of all muslims. What the fuck is wrong with people? On a day when we're remembering World War II - some of our citizens sound straight out of Nazi Germany.
 

curls

Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience 💤
Empty said:
it's by the guy who did the atrocious 'the great global warming swindle' documentary a few years back. so i certainly won't be watching.

Yeah the presenter made a pretty one sided argument. The NHS part and the arguments he made there were 'lol' worthy to say the least. People will lap it up though. :/
 

Songbird

Prodigal Son
Hi, sorry to invade this thread but I wanted to post a little link from the Guardian that might raise an eyebrow or two. Unless you're in Bedfordshire or follow liberal blogs very closely, you might not know Nadine Dorries, MP (website is offline due to imaginary bullies! spooky). This fine member of parliament is part of the Health Select Committee, a decent power in the shaping of science laws. Here is why she is completely inappropriate for this position, or even as an MP for that matter.

Nadine Dorries is to political discourse what Basil Fawlty was to hotel management, and the return of the Conservative MP to Twitter a few weeks ago was destined to lead to great amusement for all involved.

And so it came to be. First a disabled constituent was subjected to a bizarre attack questioning her right to benefits, for daring to use Twitter to criticise the MP. Then came an admission to a parliamentary watchdog that her blog was "70% fiction".
Now her strange outbursts have escalated to attacks on bloggers and journalists who report on her activities. Blogger Tim Ireland was accused of harassment after daring to investigate "Forsaken", an anti-abortion charity Nadine had made various claims about; and then yesterday legal pundit David Allen Green was challenged over a blog he wrote for the New Statesman.

Ben Goldacre was an early and prominent victim of Dorries' wrath. Back in October 2007 he wrote an article looking at the use and abuse of evidence in the abortion debate, in which he examined some of the data presented to the Commons committee on science and technology by Professor John Wyatt of the Christian Medical Fellowship, concluding that it was of questionable quality. This data happened to support Dorries' views, and she responded angrily – not with any discussion of the evidence, but by ranting: "There should be an enquiry about how this information got into the public domain and as to whether such a personal attack represents a serious breach of parliamentary procedure."
There was of course no such breach as Ben himself pointed out – the information was publicly available
– but the episode gave a good taste of Dorries' reaction to the possibility of open discussion of scientific evidence, and tendency to leap to conclusions with the enthusiasm and gay abandonment of a spawning salmon.
The whole article is worth a read, but that's just a taste. She has also smeared a doctor and ex-colleague in parliament in naming him "Dr Death." An overwhelming number of committee meetings were marked by her absence. She has claimed the heads of the NUS "egged on" student protesters.
As you can see expenses fiddling is the least of her problems, and I'm glad I got this off my chest. I know, livejournal.
 

Empty

Member
making interesting posts on the topic isn't invading the thread and livejournaling, thnikkaman. don't worry.

but yeah dorries is nuts. just given her views i find her position on that committee worrying, let alone her conduct.

Thnikkaman said:
She has also smeared a doctor and ex-colleague in parliament in naming him "Dr Death."

aww. i was just beginning to forget about the tragic de-seating of evan harris. now you've opened old wounds and i'm sad again.
 
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