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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
I was talking with my mother about the system they have in place in Sweden. Two interesting aspects are that the parliamentary seats are based on each constituency. So no matter your local MP, they will always have the same seat and thus they could end up sitting next to people not in their party.
Also blank votes are counted so if you don't agree with any of the candidates your vote still can have some weight to it.
i'm way more angry about this result than i thought i would be. it's not just my side losing, it's the stickiness of the shameful no2av lies, the squandered opportunity by bad timing and campaigning, the number of petty people voting against to stick it to nick clegg, the scale of the loss is really hard to take and the way smug tory mp's and new pundits are going to use it to shut down electoral reform debate for ages is going to be unbearable. definitely need to stay away from people against av tonight.
Empty said:
Not just Tories shutting it down either. You just had Tessa Jowell on Sky saying that even though she is in favour of electoral reform (yeah, right), that the electorate has spoken and they overwhelmingly want to keep things as they are.
A very sad day indeed
Additional Member isn't a political system in itself, it's a method of PR that modifies existing systems.DECK'ARD said:
It provides 'top ups', or additional members, to existing systems such as FPTP (like in Scotland) that balances out the non-proportional natures of these systems while still allowing people all the things they love about FPTP (constituency MP, X in a box, winner takes all, etc).
AV+ was a proposal of AV with the inclusion of an Additional Member System.
For what it's worth:
FINAL NEOGAF POLLING RESULTS
Local:
Labour: 38.8% (33)
Liberal Democrats: 22.4% (19)
Conservatives: 15.3% (13)
Scottish National Party (SNP): 8.2% (7)
Green Party: 5.9% (5)
United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP): 3.5% (3)
Social Democrat and Labour Party (SDLP): 2.3% (2)
Independent: 2.3% (2)
Plaid Cymru: 1.2% (1)
Referendum:
Yes: 77.8% (70)
No: 22.2% (20)
FINAL NEOGAF POLLING RESULTS
Local:
Labour: 38.8% (33)
Liberal Democrats: 22.4% (19)
Conservatives: 15.3% (13)
Scottish National Party (SNP): 8.2% (7)
Green Party: 5.9% (5)
United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP): 3.5% (3)
Social Democrat and Labour Party (SDLP): 2.3% (2)
Independent: 2.3% (2)
Plaid Cymru: 1.2% (1)
Referendum:
Yes: 77.8% (70)
No: 22.2% (20)
louis89
Member
The No vote won. Yay. Now we carry on using the system we've used for two hundred years which nobody seemed to have a problem with before.
Don't blame the No campaign. The Yes campaign had every opportunity to convincingly persuade people that AV is a change worth making - they failed to do so.
AV failed to pass because it's pointless and unnecessary. No other reason.
Don't blame the No campaign. The Yes campaign had every opportunity to convincingly persuade people that AV is a change worth making - they failed to do so.
AV failed to pass because it's pointless and unnecessary. No other reason.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
PR^2:
You vote for your preferred candidate with a tick, then the national result per party is squared and added up for a total xxxx, once you have that total you get the percentage result for each party square it for result yyy. Finally you do (yyy/xxxx) x 650 for the number of MPs each party will receive in parliament. An example vote:
Con 43
Lab 34
LD 15
UKIP 4
Green 3
BNP 1
This would give seat results of:
Con 369
Lab 231
LD 45
UKIP 3
Green 2
BNP 0
Now for a close run election:
Con 38
Lab 36
LD 20
UKIP 3
Green 2
BNP 1
It would give results of:
Con 297
Lab 267
LD 82
UKIP 2
Green 1
BNP 0
For the 2010 GE it would yield seats:
Con 315
Lab 203
LD 128
UKIP 2
Green 0
BNP 1
As a simplified result not counting the NI results, or Scots and Welsh Nats for ease of the example.
You vote for your preferred candidate with a tick, then the national result per party is squared and added up for a total xxxx, once you have that total you get the percentage result for each party square it for result yyy. Finally you do (yyy/xxxx) x 650 for the number of MPs each party will receive in parliament. An example vote:
Con 43
Lab 34
LD 15
UKIP 4
Green 3
BNP 1
This would give seat results of:
Con 369
Lab 231
LD 45
UKIP 3
Green 2
BNP 0
Now for a close run election:
Con 38
Lab 36
LD 20
UKIP 3
Green 2
BNP 1
It would give results of:
Con 297
Lab 267
LD 82
UKIP 2
Green 1
BNP 0
For the 2010 GE it would yield seats:
Con 315
Lab 203
LD 128
UKIP 2
Green 0
BNP 1
As a simplified result not counting the NI results, or Scots and Welsh Nats for ease of the example.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Meadows said:
Of course, but as long as there is an appetite for electoral reform it will continue to be discussed. I think an elected upper house is more important anyway and that discussion still needs to happen as was originally put into the coalition agreement.
Electoral reform isn't just about voting, there are plenty of other aspects as well, it was just the Islington trendies who want a forever lefty coalition figured AV would be the best way to deliver that desired result.
DECK'ARD said:Not just Tories shutting it down either. You just had Tessa Jowell on Sky saying that even though she is in favour of electoral reform (yeah, right), that the electorate has spoken and they overwhelmingly want to keep things as they are.
A very sad day indeed
yeah i should have included labour too as ed aside they can be just as terrible on this issue, and are happy to find an excuse to stop talking about. oh if only they'd used their huge majority and the economic stability of the time to try av+ after the jenkins commission a decade ago.
JonathanEx
Member
I like how Jeremy Vine's foot keeps disappearing when they zoom in on the floor.
JonathanEx
Member
FUCKING BITCH.DECK'ARD said:
Want to punch the smug face in.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Meadows said:
To be fair to Gove, he is right. Labour didn't do well all across the UK, they had a disaster in Scotland and have made little to no progress in the south of England. Labour have done well in the north of England and Wales, and middling in the Midlands. I don't count that as doing well all across the UK...
Edit: Sky saying the popular vote for locals was Con 38, Lab 37, LD 17. So they haven't outpolled a government making cuts to local services. Labour have done alright and have have had some good results like Wales, but to say they are doing well across the UK is stretching the truth too far, and it sounds like it comes from Labour HQ.
killer_clank
Member
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
On the AV vote, there now seem to be enough results in that at least the overall result is clear.
So, lets play at being spin doctors!
The idea is to spin from the (currently putative) results a positive statement for each of the three main lines: stick with FPTP, move to AV, move to PR. Because we are spin-doctoring, the lines need to be superficially persuasive, but need not be strictly true. I guess whatever we come up with will appear in the news sometime over the next 24 hours.
For starters:
A comprehensive rejection of electoral reform
the No vote could muster less than half the electorate, most people either positively support AV or are so disenchanted with the current system that they did not vote at all
At least 30% of the voters favour some form of electoral reform thats more than voted for Labour at the last election the momentum is growing
So, lets play at being spin doctors!
The idea is to spin from the (currently putative) results a positive statement for each of the three main lines: stick with FPTP, move to AV, move to PR. Because we are spin-doctoring, the lines need to be superficially persuasive, but need not be strictly true. I guess whatever we come up with will appear in the news sometime over the next 24 hours.
For starters:
A comprehensive rejection of electoral reform
the No vote could muster less than half the electorate, most people either positively support AV or are so disenchanted with the current system that they did not vote at all
At least 30% of the voters favour some form of electoral reform thats more than voted for Labour at the last election the momentum is growing
STV vote crashed and burned here in Canada with provincial votes failing in BC and Ontario. Yes side naturally blamed low turnout, apathy, dirty tricks etc. but I think those types of commentary tend to be more about us/them hate mongering than a sober analysis of the situation.
I think the problem with electoral reform is
1) as a premise is a broadly popular (this is intuitive as FTPT system produces weird results)
2) when applied beyond FPTP system, the mechanisms tend to become more complicated than simply 1 person 1 vote. STV failed due to the likelihood of fractional votes and multiple MPs from 1 constuency (it's not intuitive and many people dislike it)
3) So when presented with a choice with a known quantity that can produce weird results with an unknown quantity that is not intuitive the proposals fail.
I think for all its faults FPTP is elegant in that it ties voters to locations. alternative proposals always fall into pits trying to solve simple problems FPTP system have solved simply by not aggregating vote tallys nationally/regionally, and sending the person with the most votes in a riding to parliament.
I think the problem with electoral reform is
1) as a premise is a broadly popular (this is intuitive as FTPT system produces weird results)
2) when applied beyond FPTP system, the mechanisms tend to become more complicated than simply 1 person 1 vote. STV failed due to the likelihood of fractional votes and multiple MPs from 1 constuency (it's not intuitive and many people dislike it)
3) So when presented with a choice with a known quantity that can produce weird results with an unknown quantity that is not intuitive the proposals fail.
I think for all its faults FPTP is elegant in that it ties voters to locations. alternative proposals always fall into pits trying to solve simple problems FPTP system have solved simply by not aggregating vote tallys nationally/regionally, and sending the person with the most votes in a riding to parliament.
"Not only is this a clear victory, but very few things ever poll this high, no prime minister has ever been that popular, no american president, so 70% is a huge endorsement of our current system over its 200 year term."
"This was reform at the wrong time, voters didn't not want AV, just look at how positively it polled last year, they just wanted to focus on the economy and punished the yes campaign for pulling attention away from it right now."
"Voters in this country are smart, they didn't want to be stuck with a watered down electoral reform for the next generation, they want reform to be proper and they are willing to wait to get it right."
"This was reform at the wrong time, voters didn't not want AV, just look at how positively it polled last year, they just wanted to focus on the economy and punished the yes campaign for pulling attention away from it right now."
"Voters in this country are smart, they didn't want to be stuck with a watered down electoral reform for the next generation, they want reform to be proper and they are willing to wait to get it right."
zomgbbqftw
Banned
phisheep said:
Surely Ed wouldn't be making the case against AV!
I really like the system we have in Scotland although hell would freeze over before Labour or Conservatives went for a system that meant an end to the two party system.
Really happy with the result in Scotland, I haven't been an SNP voter in the past but was convinced by them in the last parliament and saw them as the only viable party (headless labour, dead dems, Scottish conservatives and assorted crackpots just didn't do it for me). With SNP having such an incredible result it gives Scotland a very strong voice and I am hopeful we will see more fiscal independence soon.
Really happy with the result in Scotland, I haven't been an SNP voter in the past but was convinced by them in the last parliament and saw them as the only viable party (headless labour, dead dems, Scottish conservatives and assorted crackpots just didn't do it for me). With SNP having such an incredible result it gives Scotland a very strong voice and I am hopeful we will see more fiscal independence soon.
radioheadrule83
Banned
Wes said:
I didn't know Michael Winner had been tweeting about her tits... having observed and appreciated her tits myself, that makes me like him a lot more
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Well the silver lining is that we're probably looking at the death of the union soon atleast.
nelsonroyale
Member
Gah, how smarmy was Cameron when he said that it was such a shame that the electrical reform didn't pass? Bloody crap system we have benefits the tories the most
Dark Machine
Member
7aged said:
My thoughts exactly
Black Republican
Member
is she that bad?kharma45 said:
Dr Zhivago
Member
Mr. Sam said:
Edison has had his own way for far too long, Tesla FTW!
StealthGoblin
Banned
Victoria Coren is cool, but even when someone makes a sexist joke, which is clearly a sexist joke and nothing more, she looks like she has taken personal offence to it. She needs to loosen up a tad.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Galvanise_ said:
Leftys, loosening up? Magic 8 ball says 'try again later'...
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
zomgbbqftw said:
What nonsense.
Thnikkaman said:Although... ~40% turnout is shamefully low. I am afraid of the amount of political apathy in this country.
Also, funtimes! Nick Clegg looking sad
40% isn't THAT bad really, especially considering there were no elections in London, the biggest area of population in the UK. Council elections and electoral reform aren't really the sexiest issues.
DECK'ARD said:
Once again how people can view the Lib Dems as a viable entity to run this country I don't know ...
They just don't understand what is going on ... and their support base is as reliable as the benefit cheating losers they stand for.
It's nice for us realists though, the thought of having a lib dem government is quite unsettling. However with the little responsibility they've scored off the terrible labour government the last election, they've shown the whole country just why they've never won an election before.
Bugger, with AV going down the pan the next election here in Aberconwy is going to be a nightmare, with each non-Conservative party saying "We are the only party that can beat the Conservatives, any other vote is wasted".
This is how it finished last time:
Conservatives: 35.8%
Labour: 24.5%
Lib Dems: 19.3%
Plaid Cymru: 17.8%
UKIP: 2.1%
Christian: 0.5%
I don't want the Conservatives or Labour, I want either the Lib Dems or Plaid Cymru. Ugh. Fuck FPTP.
edit:
Oh well, at least I can vote in York Outer (if I still live there)
Conservatives: 43.0%
Liberal Democrats: 36.1%
Labour: 17.1%
UKIP: 2.1%
BNP: 1.8%
If the LD vote can hold up and Labour voters see that their vote is wasted, then maybe the LDs can take it (if they're remotely popular in 4 years)
This is how it finished last time:
Conservatives: 35.8%
Labour: 24.5%
Lib Dems: 19.3%
Plaid Cymru: 17.8%
UKIP: 2.1%
Christian: 0.5%
I don't want the Conservatives or Labour, I want either the Lib Dems or Plaid Cymru. Ugh. Fuck FPTP.
edit:
Oh well, at least I can vote in York Outer (if I still live there)
Conservatives: 43.0%
Liberal Democrats: 36.1%
Labour: 17.1%
UKIP: 2.1%
BNP: 1.8%
If the LD vote can hold up and Labour voters see that their vote is wasted, then maybe the LDs can take it (if they're remotely popular in 4 years)