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[nib95]

Lib Dems pull it so we can have a snap election already. Any chance to get the current damaging and counter productive government out. If only.

P.S I'm not saying I do or do not agree with him. Personally, I think isolating ourselves is deeply dangerous and that we ought to be a part of the EU in a greater sense. However, I would say that if certain facets were less favourable to us, we should have fought or debated to have things amended or threatened a Veto instead of irresponsibly just bailing out (without proper send off from Lib Dems no loss). I think that shows great disregard on the part of Cameron and a political arrogance and immaturity that this country could do without. Not a fan of these US style, show boating, isolated and discourteous kind of decisions and antics.

 

[dalin80]

Lib Dems pull it so we can have a snap election already. Any chance to get the current damaging and counter productive government out. If only.

To be replaced with a hopeless government made up of most of the people who put us into this mess, the lib dems haven't got a chance of getting near power again if they cause another election.

Another election at this time would give the tories a majority on their own.


The talks went on for a long time and I feel it is wrong to say that cameron is responsible (at least soley) for the lack of a compromise or that no attempts were made before the veto was made, it takes two to tango and sarkozy seems hell bent on securing his re-election at Britain cost.

 

[killer_clank]

Aye, I wouldn't believe the current polls showing Labour would win if there was another election. The Tories would get their majority and then the situation would be even worse.

 

[nib95]

To be replaced with a hopeless government made up of most of the people who put us into this mess, the lib dems haven't got a chance of getting near power again if they cause another election.

Another election at this time would give the tories a majority on their own.

Not so sure myself. I feel Tories were lucky with a major swing post Global recession (key word global), and with the coalition gained the minority that wanted left, but not Conservative.

Recently that tide has started turning back. Perhaps not on the question of the EU decision, but certainly with other areas of politics, especially education, finance etc. Hence why there's been so much unrest, so many political movements, protests, riots etc. People like to isolate the riots to just the recent ones with youths, but there were many others prior to that regarding teaching, student fees and all sorts. Lots and lots of resentment with the way the current government is pushing things forward in bullish hap hazard fashion.

 

[PJV3]

To be replaced with a hopeless government made up of most of the people who put us into this mess, the lib dems haven't got a chance of getting near power again if they cause another election.

Another election at this time would give the tories a majority on their own.

It would probably be another Con-Lib coalition (LibDems giving tacit support if not a full on coalition), Labour are banking on 2015 and are no way near having economic policies ready for a snap election.

 

[Meadows]

A snap election would be the worst thing possible for the country. Also, I think that the result would probably be the same.

 

[killer_clank]

It would probably be another Con-Lib coalition (LibDems giving tacit support if not a full on coalition), Labour are banking on 2015 and are no way near having economic policies ready for a snap election.

I somehow doubt the Lib Dems would have any seats left for that to be even possible. They'd be wiped out in Mainland Scotland (apart from perhaps Charles Kennedy if he doesn't defect/retire) leaving only Orkney and Shetland, decimated in the more centre left leaning seats they hold in England, although they might hold onto a couple of the South West right leaning ones.

 

[kitch9]

I'm waiting to see what Cable has to say, he warned the cabinet about turning the casino part of the city and a bunch of tax evaders into the national interest.

It would probably be another Con-Lib coalition (LibDems giving tacit support if not a full on coalition), Labour are banking on 2015 and are no way near having economic policies ready for a snap election.

Yeah, Labour have been too busy systematically opposing everything the government does... They'd be fucked now as they'd realise that they have opposed stuff they would need to do to provide a credible budget manifesto for an election so they'd lose all credibility.

I wonder what the unions would do with a Labour government that couldn't actually offer much better pensions than the coalition?

 

[PJV3]

I somehow doubt the Lib Dems would have any seats left for that to be even possible. They'd be wiped out in Mainland Scotland (apart from perhaps Charles Kennedy if he doesn't defect/retire) leaving only Orkney and Shetland, decimated in the more centre left leaning seats they hold in England, although they might hold onto a couple of the South West right leaning ones.

I think a lot of Labour voters would in the end vote LibDem in a lot of marginals, i don't believe Labour voters when it comes down to it will undo the lessons of the 80's.

 

[dalin80]

A snap election would be the worst thing possible for the country. Also, I think that the result would probably be the same.

Yep, for this to work the international markets need to see confidence and strength, a election or vote of no-confidence will sign the economies death certificate. By acting this way clegg is just doing pointless damage at a time when the government needs to show unity and stability.

 

[Meadows]

Yep, for this to work the international markets need to see confidence and strength, a election or vote of no-confidence will sign the economies death certificate. By acting this way clegg is just doing pointless damage at a time when the government needs to show unity and stability.

If Clegg didn't do this we'd see some serious shit go down. Leadership contests, defections to Labour etc

 

[Empty]

been a while since clegg last did something that i liked

should have spoken out sooner though, before everyone decided cameron was churchill 2.0, but it probably wouldn't have had too much effect.

 

[PJV3]

been a while since clegg last did something that i liked

should have spoken out sooner though, before everyone decided cameron was churchill 2.0, but it probably wouldn't have had too much effect.

He is perhaps the worst politician in the UK, he's fucking useless. Europe is meant to be one of the LibDem key policies, but he sleeps in sheffield while giving Cameron a free hand. After the AV shambles you think he would've learnt that Cameron will stitch him up at the drop of a hat.

 

[Clay Davis]

He is perhaps the worst politician in the UK, he's fucking useless. Europe is meant to be one of the LibDem key policies, but he sleeps in sheffield while giving Cameron a free hand. After the AV shambles you think he would've learnt that Cameron will stitch him up at the drop of a hat.

he can't do anything as him pulling out of the coalition would leave the country is much worse shape due to external factors like the market, ratings agencies, etc.

if he could, we'd have already seen the end of the coalition, but as it stands, the lib dems will stick it out for the good of the country. they've won my respect in that regard, but their lack of standing up against the tories is very disappointing. they don't have to withdraw from the coalition, but they also don't have to act like abused housewives.

 

[Walshicus]

- We'd be paying a large portion of the transaction tax as a country
- I don't want the EU to see budgets before parliament
- I think that a lot of politicians in Europe have been childish about the UK's and have ridiculous expectations of what a Eurosceptic party might do
- We've had a very tough austerity here in the UK, probably one of the worst in the world, just so we can have a good bond rate, and I'll be fucked if Brussels will take that away with a transaction tax that is more harmful to us than anyone else in Europe

I might have got the wrong end of the stick, but I was pretty certain that the bolded only applied to Eurozone members?

 

[Speedymanic]

I might have got the wrong end of the stick, but I was pretty certain that the bolded only applied to Eurozone members?

My understanding is that it does only apply to those member states. Anyway, interesting times ahead for the UK. Hope it pulls through.

 

[PJV3]

he can't do anything as him pulling out of the coalition would leave the country is much worse shape due to external factors like the market, ratings agencies, etc.

if he could, we'd have already seen the end of the coalition, but as it stands, the lib dems will stick it out for the good of the country. they've won my respect in that regard, but their lack of standing up against the tories is very disappointing. they don't have to withdraw from the coalition, but they also don't have to act like abused housewives.

He could have insisted that Cameron contact him before using the veto, he sounded utterly ridiculous today. Without the LibDems Cameron wouldn't be negotiating anything.

 

[Empty]

I might have got the wrong end of the stick, but I was pretty certain that the bolded only applied to Eurozone members?

yes. it's also my understanding that the veto wasn't about the transaction tax - which couldn't be introduced without our say anyway as any taxation policy requires unamnity regardless of the veto on the proposals - it was about fear of future regulations and securing protections such that the uk can opt out of banking regulations coming from europe.

 

[angelkimne]

Should the UK quit the EU?

Yes: 48%
No: 33%
Don't Know: 19%

Almost half want us to all out abandon the EU? Pfft. I'd like to see half the population come up with a coherent argument for doing so. (not that half of the population could come up with a coherent argument in regard to any aspect of politics)

 

[dalin80]

In fairness in most polls where a trade based alliance with the EU is a option most go for that, its only in polls where that isnt a option do most go for the leave EU option.

 

[Sage00]

The veto was because the Tories are little children and wouldn't have allowed it to pass through parliament unless they were seen to be 'getting' something in return. Without the 'safeguards' Cameron couldn't have said yes if he wanted to, his own party would've blocked it and turned on him.

I'm struggling to nail down what to think about all of this veto malarkey.

Pro-veto:

- We'd be paying a large portion of the transaction tax as a country
- I don't want the EU to see budgets before parliament
- I think that a lot of politicians in Europe have been childish about the UK's and have ridiculous expectations of what a Eurosceptic party might do
- We've had a very tough austerity here in the UK, probably one of the worst in the world, just so we can have a good bond rate, and I'll be fucked if Brussels will take that away with a transaction tax that is more harmful to us than anyone else in Europe

Anti-veto:

- Cameron went in with his backbenchers in mind, not the interest of the country
- He shouldn't have used his veto so early, he should have stuck it out and threatened to veto, but not go nuclear so soon
- He should have been talking to Clegg
- We need to be fighting against French protectionism in the EU, Germany alone can't do it really
- Europe fucking hate us now

All those pros are factually incorrect and represent a basic misunderstanding of what happened in Brussels that is likely rife among the UK populace.

Anti-veto points are spot on, though.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Almost half want us to all out abandon the EU? Pfft. I'd like to see half the population come up with a coherent argument for doing so. (not that half of the population could come up with a coherent argument in regard to any aspect of politics)

Brussuls try'na straigh'un ma bernanas innit?

 

[Meadows]

Bendy Bananas or not, some of the EU's agricultural policies are straight up terrible for this country.

 

[Sage00]

On a related note, Ipsos Mori polls always remind of just how bad the idea of direct democracy, like referenda, truly is.

Please keep these people away from making any important decisions.

Bendy Bananas or not, some of the EU's agricultural policies are straight up terrible for this country.

The UK wouldn't have an agricultural industry if it weren't for the CAP..

 

[Meadows]

On a related note, Ipsos Mori polls always remind of just how bad the idea of direct democracy, like referenda, truly is.

Please keep these people away from making any important decisions.

Step 1: Beef up the electoral commission so they have more powers to stop lies being spread, as was the case in the AV referendum

Step 2: Hold the referendum and allow groups from the Yes/No party to spread their message and educate the public

I guarantee you that if there was a referendum on bringing back the death penalty, then NO would win, because quite frankly the lobbying power of the NO vote would be ridiculously strong (LD/LAB/Amnesty Int/GRN/most Tories)

The UK wouldn't have an agricultural industry if it weren't for the CAP..

what the fuck are you talking about?

 

[kitch9]

The veto was because the Tories are little children and wouldn't have allowed it to pass through parliament unless they were seen to be 'getting' something in return. Without the 'safeguards' Cameron couldn't have said yes if he wanted to, his own party would've blocked it and turned on him.



All those pros are factually incorrect and represent a basic misunderstanding of what happened in Brussels that is likely rife among the UK populace.

Anti-veto points are spot on, though.

When you say little children, you mean they have an opinion that happens to agree with the people who voted for them in a majority yes?

Cameron was stuck, I agree with you. He'd promised a referendum to his party and the people if the EU came knocking for a treaty change.

The EU knew this, still came knocking and refused to negotiate when we provided a solution that would not require the legally required referendum.

 

[Sage00]

When you say little children, you mean they have an opinion that happens to agree with the people who voted for them in a majority yes?

Cameron was stuck, I agree with you. He'd promised a referendum to his party and the people if the EU came knocking for a treaty change.

The EU knew this, still came knocking and refused to negotiate when we provided a solution that would not require the legally required referendum.

Right, exactly. I wouldn't so much say the EU, but more specifically Sarkozy engineered this situation. He'll be gone soon enough though so it'll be interesting to see what happens then.

 

[PJV3]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/11/will-hutton-david-cameron-wrong-on-europe

The Tories are one of the world's most enduring political parties. But this long life is built on its cultural attractiveness to parts of the English middle class, especially in the home counties, rather than on its political judgments, which have, over the centuries, been almost continuously wrong, especially in foreign policy.

Much of British finance in whose name Cameron exercised his veto – routine banking, insurance and accounting – was wholly unaffected by any treaty change. The financial services industry in Britain constitutes 7.5% of GDP and employs a million people; the City represents perhaps a third of that and, in turn, that part threatened – if it was threatened at all – some fraction of that. This is a tiny economic interest. If the coalition is serious about rebalancing the British economy, it is preposterous to place a fragment of the City at the forefront of our national priorities.

A good read i thought.

 

[Walshicus]

Quick tangent - is it right that I shouldn't be seeing avatars? Couldn't see anything stickied about that and I'm not running adblock.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Quick tangent - is it right that I shouldn't be seeing avatars? Couldn't see anything stickied about that and I'm not running adblock.

VGA etc put strain on the servers, so the avatars were disabled for a bit. Should be back up later.

 

[Walshicus]

VGA etc put strain on the servers, so the avatars were disabled for a bit. Should be back up later.

Fair do. Heh, will have to see what this "VGA" is.

 

[killer_clank]

Fair do. Heh, will have to see what this "VGA" is.

The video gaming equivalent of the Oscars.

































/sarcasm

 

[Empty]

the vga's constant advert breaks every five minutes made me proud of british television.

 

[killer_clank]

the vga's constant advert breaks every five minutes made me proud of british television.

"Kraft Macaroni and Cheese congratulates all tonight's winners"

 

[kitch9]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/11/will-hutton-david-cameron-wrong-on-europe

The Tories are one of the world's most enduring political parties. But this long life is built on its cultural attractiveness to parts of the English middle class, especially in the home counties, rather than on its political judgments, which have, over the centuries, been almost continuously wrong, especially in foreign policy.

Much of British finance in whose name Cameron exercised his veto – routine banking, insurance and accounting – was wholly unaffected by any treaty change. The financial services industry in Britain constitutes 7.5% of GDP and employs a million people; the City represents perhaps a third of that and, in turn, that part threatened – if it was threatened at all – some fraction of that. This is a tiny economic interest. If the coalition is serious about rebalancing the British economy, it is preposterous to place a fragment of the City at the forefront of our national priorities.

A good read i thought.

There's a decent amount of hyperbole on both sides of the fence on this subject, this article could probably be described as that, but I would say we are somewhere in the middle.

I wonder if there has been further discussion out of the spotlight or if everyone has thrown their teddies out of the pram completely?

 

[PJV3]

There's a decent amount of hyperbole on both sides of the fence on this subject, this article could probably be described as that, but I would say we are somewhere in the middle.


I wonder if there has been further discussion out of the spotlight or if everyone has thrown their teddies out of the pram completely?

Tomorrow will be entertaining, hopefully Milliband concentrates on the actual negotiations as the effects of the decision by Cameron wont become clear for a while. The LibDems are in for a roasting anyway. Bill Cash will look like the Cheshire cat.

 

[kitch9]

Tomorrow will be entertaining, hopefully Milliband concentrates on the actual negotiations as the effects of the decision by Cameron wont become clear for a while. The LibDems are in for a roasting anyway. Bill Cash will look like the Cheshire cat.

I dunno, I'm expecting a last minute comprise which suits all sides whilst making everyone look good as a hardnosed negotiator fighting for their country.

 

[PJV3]

I dunno, I'm expecting a last minute comprise which suits all sides whilst making everyone look good as a hardnosed negotiator fighting for their country.

Holy shit, The Daily Mail, his backbenchers and half the Tory electorate would go insane. Cameron is the new Duke of Wellington at the moment

 

[Rourkey]

What I'll never understand is why these things aren't pretty much sorted my mandarins way in advance of these summits and not left to 4am to ego driven politicians.

Surely everyone should have known everyone's position in advance?

 

[kitch9]

What I'll never understand is why these things aren't pretty much sorted my mandarins way in advance of these summits and not left to 4am to ego driven politicians.

Surely everyone should have known everyone's position in advance?

They knew exactly.

Each leader has to look good to their voters. The majority of the UK electorate understand the need for the EU and are happy it exists, but feel it's intrusions go too far as that's how the press portrays it.

I can see why Cameron didn't want to go against that sentiment and be different to the previous government who just meekly accepted everything with no fight.

 

[frankie_baby]

On a related note, Ipsos Mori polls always remind of just how bad the idea of direct democracy, like referenda, truly is.

Please keep these people away from making any important decisions.


The UK wouldn't have an agricultural industry if it weren't for the CAP..

I will ad from personal experience talking with pro death penalty weirdos almost all of them usually qualify their pro death penalty views with things like "only if there is irrefutable evidence like cctv or dna or something" Well now a situation like that would go completely against all principals of law, someone is either guilty or not guilty there's no such thing as some people being more guilty than others

 

[kitch9]

I will ad from personal experience talking with pro death penalty weirdos almost all of them usually qualify their pro death penalty views with things like "only if there is irrefutable evidence like cctv or dna or something" Well now a situation like that would go completely against all principals of law, someone is either guilty or not guilty there's no such thing as some people being more guilty than others

The death penalty is a let off anyway. Murderers should be locked in their cells in solitude for 22 hours a day for life.... Give them plenty of time to think about what they have done on their own....... Then they can die of old age.

 

[PJV3]

They knew exactly.

Each leader has to look good to their voters. The majority of the UK electorate understand the need for the EU and are happy it exists, but feel it's intrusions go too far as that's how the press portrays it.

I can see why Cameron didn't want to go against that sentiment and be different to the previous government who just meekly accepted everything with no fight.

I don't quite get this, besides the reduction in the rebate, which they did on condition it went to the new eastern european members, where did they roll over? Lisbon was a damp squib that didn't effect much outside of the structure of the EU, Thatcher signed the single european act (the largest transfer of power)and Major the Maastricht treaty.

Lisbon Treaty
Summary

A European Council President with a 2½ year term, reducing the rotating Council Presidency's role.- who cares.

A single foreign affairs post created by merging the External Relations Commissioner with the
CFSP High Representative. - 1 job instead of two

Charter of Fundamental Rights from 2000 made legally binding.- freedom of thought etc, how terrible.

European Council separated officially from the Council of Ministers. ??

More powerful Parliament- democracy

A secession clause- come on tories

More double majority voting to new areas of policy in theEuropean Council and the
Council of Ministers.- sort of needed really.

National parliaments engaged by expanding scrutiny-time of legislation and enabling them to
jointly compel the Commissionto review or withdraw legislation.- oh no.

Mutual solidarity obliged if a member state is object of a
terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster. -Disgusting

Citizens' Initiative- WTF

Enhanced co-operation- COMMUNISM

An External Action Service.-?

 

[kitch9]

I don't quite get this, besides the reduction in the rebate, which they did on condition it went to the new eastern european members, where did they roll over? Lisbon was a damp squib that didn't effect much outside of the structure of the EU, Thatcher signed the single european act (the largest transfer of power)and Major the Maastricht treaty.

Lisbon Treaty
Summary

A European Council President with a 2½ year term, reducing the rotating Council Presidency's role.

A single foreign affairs post

created by merging the External Relations Commissioner with the
CFSP High Representative.

Charter of Fundamental Rights from 2000 made legally binding.

European Council separated officially from the Council of Ministers.

More powerful Parliament

A secession clause

More double majority voting to new areas of policy in theEuropean Council and the
Council of Ministers.

National parliaments engaged by expanding scrutiny-time of legislation and enabling them to
jointly compel the Commissionto review or withdraw legislation.

Mutual solidarity obliged if a member state is object of a
terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster.

Citizens' Initiative

Enhanced co-operation

An External Action Service.

The EU's intrusions are far reaching and the last government allowed them to slide, I'll give you a spurious example.

Cement.

The EU's health and safety regulations have made it impossible for the UK to mass produce cement for affordable money, in fact the only country that really can is.... Wait for it..... Germany and France. They imposed restrictions on the movement of some of the raw materials that killed off some of our biggest players who've been around for decades.

You can try asking how our fishermen feel about the subject too.

We have to remember a lot of the EU's electorate is sceptical too, it's even worse through recent events.

*Edit* I live in a farming community as well, most of those guys are far from being eu fans....

 

[PJV3]

The EU's intrusions are far reaching and the last government allowed them to slide, I'll give you a spurious example.

Cement.

The EU's health and safety regulations have made it impossible for the UK to mass produce cement for affordable money, in fact the only country that really can is.... Wait for it..... Germany and France. They imposed restrictions on the movement of some of the raw materials that killed off some of our biggest players who've been around for decades.

You can try asking how our fishermen feel about the subject too.

We have to remember a lot of the EU's electorate is sceptical too, it's even worse through recent events.

I don't know much about cement outside of Blue Circle making some very bad decisions, so i will give you that. I'm 40 yrs old and the fishermen have been complaining about quotas for as far as i can remember, it has been part of the European system since 1957. I'm not saying Europe is perfect, i'm saying the Tories have got a bloody cheek.


From 2007 to 2013, the European Fisheries Fund (EFF) will provide approximately 3.8 billion Euro to the European fishing sector. The adoption of the EFF was not uncontested, in particular by environmental groups, as it includes the possibility to fund vessel modernisation and other measures, which might increase pressure on already overfished stocks.

 

[kitch9]

I don't know much about cement outside of Blue Circle making some very bad decisions, so i will give you that. I'm 40 yrs old and the fishermen have been complaining about quotas for as far as i can remember. I'm not saying Europe is perfect, i'm saying the Tories have got a bloody cheek.

Blue circle ended up getting bought by a French company..... The cement they now produce is shit compared to how it was.

I think most Tories believe in a close trade alliance, but few see the need to have stuff like our laws, regulations and rights dictated to us as we are not part of the Euro.

I would say most of our electorate (As well as Europes) feels the same way.

 

[PJV3]

Blue circle ended up getting bought by a French company..... The cement they now produce is shit compared to how it was.

I think most Tories believe in a close trade alliance, but few see the need to have stuff like our laws, regulations and rights dictated to us as we are not part of the Euro.

I would say most of our electorate (As well as Europes) feels the same way.

Ah well, we will have to agree to disagree i suppose.

Blue circle sold its Mexican division (3rd largest producer in the world), and became a minor player before Lafarge? bought them out. Shit management after a fast buck.

 

[kitch9]

Ah well, we will have to agree to disagree i suppose.

Blue circle sold its Mexican division (3rd largest producer in the world), and became a minor player before Lafarge? bought them out. Shit management after a fast buck.

You'd be amazed at the stuff to that came out of the EU with regard cement regulation, and when it looked like the UK manufacturers were getting their head round them, they shifted the goalposts again.

I deal closely with a UK render manufacturer, who use cement as a raw material in large quantities and the only place they can get cement from in the world that complies with EU rules at anything like a decent price is Germany.

They used to buy it from another company based 10 miles down the road from them that was forced to close as they could not keep up.

Blue Circle effectively bailed out of the UK market and Lafarge bought the brand so the UK punters still had a recognisable brand as the rest had pretty much gone.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Finally got into my VPN for that sweet iPlayer access (MOTD2 is on!) so I can make a general update on what we are hearing right now. We have some information that can be taken with a huge sack of salt, but a contact we have at BIS (he has come through for us many times in the past over measures pertaining to the finance industry, but we've never really asked about Europe so he has an unproven track record) said today that the Germans are looking to open talks with us over concessions we want in return for signing the Treaty to make it a legally binding resolution. He said financial regulation control, opt outs of all the proposed measures, taking the FTT off the table forever, and an opt out/repatriation of some other symbolic measure would be enough to placate the mainstream right (though not the BOOers) and the Lib Dems. He didn't say whether the Germans would be willing to accommodate our requests, but he thinks there is a significant chance because they have opened the lines of reconciliation already and must be willing to make a compromise.

Anyway, I wouldn't hang my hat on that since he has an unproven track record over Europe, but if it is true then Dave is looking very strong and my friend is right about a treaty of the 24 not being legally binding and therefore not good enough for Germany. Interesting times.

 

[dalin80]

Is it still the treaty of 24? I thought that the other 2 had signed up given all the press nonsense of 'OMG britain isolated and all on its own!!!'.