Karsticles
Member
Anyone up for matches? Working on my new team. PSN is Karsticles for the folks who have never played me.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Damn....wish I wasn't at work, cause I'd play. That would've been 3 gaffers today.
Karsticles
Member
GGs Kevo. That was my second time playing that team, so I would love any advice you can give. I keep forgetting that out connection is much better now than it was before. My Doom combos suck. :-(
Hm, though best not to expect too much from me just yet, I could use the match experience. Will go log on now, if still interested. PSN is summerdone.
EDIT: Guess I was too late. Perhaps another time, then.
I'm curious, what is your new team Karst?
Karsticles
Member
Anyone want to play in a few?
So yeah, two new characters to learn for me. I haven't used Doom and Sentinel on a serious team since Vanilla. This is actually my original launch team, but the order then was Sentinel/Dormammu/Doom since Sentinel could really soak damage then, and I was guaranteed 1 bar before he died so Dormammu could be brought in safely (and everyone got hit by Sentinel anyway then, lol).
Things I like about this team so far:
1) It works in every order.
2) It can handle a wide variety of teams.
3) The team is very strong for Dormammu.
4) I almost always get to play all 3 of my characters thanks to Sentinel 2nd.
5) My opponent has to play honest; burning X-Factor to kill Doom early means dealing with XF3 Dormammu, which is roughly as scary as XF3 Arthur.
6) All 3 characters are capable of making comebacks to some degree.
7) All 3 characters are pretty good at having ways to run out the opponent's X-Factor, making comebacks harder.
Oh yeah, and Nova's air throw range is so ridiculously huge that I actually got air thrown from the FRONT during Doom's j.f+H last night. Ridiculous!
Doom (Missiles) / Sentinel (Drones) / Dormammu (Dark Hole)
So yeah, two new characters to learn for me. I haven't used Doom and Sentinel on a serious team since Vanilla. This is actually my original launch team, but the order then was Sentinel/Dormammu/Doom since Sentinel could really soak damage then, and I was guaranteed 1 bar before he died so Dormammu could be brought in safely (and everyone got hit by Sentinel anyway then, lol).
Things I like about this team so far:
1) It works in every order.
2) It can handle a wide variety of teams.
3) The team is very strong for Dormammu.
4) I almost always get to play all 3 of my characters thanks to Sentinel 2nd.
5) My opponent has to play honest; burning X-Factor to kill Doom early means dealing with XF3 Dormammu, which is roughly as scary as XF3 Arthur.
6) All 3 characters are capable of making comebacks to some degree.
7) All 3 characters are pretty good at having ways to run out the opponent's X-Factor, making comebacks harder.
Oh yeah, and Nova's air throw range is so ridiculously huge that I actually got air thrown from the FRONT during Doom's j.f+H last night. Ridiculous!
kevo_huevo
Member
GGs slasher! Yah they were fun, and i normally dont like watching lobby matches, but fuck that skrull.
You did get dicked on random alls though lol (and i amazingly got my correct nova/taskmaster shell)
Now that i slept off my salt i can comment lol
Objectively, i dont think either of the teams i played you with matched up very well against doom/sent/dorm. Spencer did all of the work and my nova couldnt really get anything going. I really havent put much thought into that nova/spencer/wesker team and just decided to try it on a whim.
Is there a particular reason why you were doing those doom midscreen loops instead of the otg loops?
Also, i still cant react to the dorm f+h teleport mixup online, but that is even dirtier with hidden missiles; i like that setup.
Though it did seem like you were throwing out sentinel drones without much protection. I think i was getting happy birthdays pretty frequently, which lead to most of my wins.
Your team really does force honesty out of the opponent. In fact, i dont even think it's worth snapping in sentinel or dorm at the beginning because they get hidden missiles backed behind them.
I really hate playing against your dorm.
Karsticles
Member
Still looking for an opponent. Don't make me play randoms people! :-(
I do the Buktooth loop with Doom because I suck with Doom, and that's the combo I know from way back in Vanilla when I learned him. I asked Zissou for all of his Doom wisdom, but he's ignoring me. :-(
I don't think it's really possible to react to Dark Matter x Teleport. You just have to accept that Dormammu earns his mix-ups grounded at mid-screen, and you shouldn't be there. Always jump over Dark Matter; don't bother trying to block it. If you're pinned and can't jump, then it's just like any other mix-up, and there's some luck element to it.
Yeah, I'm still learning how to call assists properly. Almost a year of using Dark Harmonizer funks with my sends of good assist calls, especially one so unsafe as Sentinel Force. I went from one extreme to the other. With the last few matches I started baiting THC calls more; that Nova/Spencer THC is vicious.
I do the Buktooth loop with Doom because I suck with Doom, and that's the combo I know from way back in Vanilla when I learned him. I asked Zissou for all of his Doom wisdom, but he's ignoring me. :-(
I don't think it's really possible to react to Dark Matter x Teleport. You just have to accept that Dormammu earns his mix-ups grounded at mid-screen, and you shouldn't be there. Always jump over Dark Matter; don't bother trying to block it. If you're pinned and can't jump, then it's just like any other mix-up, and there's some luck element to it.
Professor Beef
Banned
Anyone on PSN wanna play in 20 minutes?
Didn't mean to ignore you! Fairly optimized Doom bnb off of a standard cr.L confirm:
cr.L, cr. H, S, super jump up fwd., j.M, j.fwd.H, air dash cancel down fwd., j.M, land, cr.H, S, super jump up fwd., j.L, j.L, j.fwd.H, air dash cancel down fwd., j.M, land, S, super jump up fwd., j.L, j.M, j.M, j.fwd.H, j.S, air dash cancel down fwd., land and tri-dash forward, st.H, S, super jump up fwd., j.M, j.M, j.fwd.H, j.S, air dash cancel down fwd., tri-dash forward, jump up fwd., heavy plasma beam xx finger lasers. I can record a video if you give me a bit. Let me also double check the notation tomorrow- it's really ingrained in muscle memory at this point, so I need to sit down and actually do the combo and make sure what I wrote is what I do.
cr.L, cr. H, S, super jump up fwd., j.M, j.fwd.H, air dash cancel down fwd., j.M, land, cr.H, S, super jump up fwd., j.L, j.L, j.fwd.H, air dash cancel down fwd., j.M, land, S, super jump up fwd., j.L, j.M, j.M, j.fwd.H, j.S, air dash cancel down fwd., land and tri-dash forward, st.H, S, super jump up fwd., j.M, j.M, j.fwd.H, j.S, air dash cancel down fwd., tri-dash forward, jump up fwd., heavy plasma beam xx finger lasers. I can record a video if you give me a bit. Let me also double check the notation tomorrow- it's really ingrained in muscle memory at this point, so I need to sit down and actually do the combo and make sure what I wrote is what I do.
Karsticles
Member
Yeah, a j.L that late seems pretty off. I couldn't do 2 reps of his OTG version with j.L.
Why didn't you just invite me?
Professor Beef
Banned
Because I didn't know if you were already playing with someone. This is why I ask in the thread first.Why didn't you just invite me?
Karsticles
Member
I'm usually just in training mode, but I'm not checking my PC while training. I just toss out the mention that I'm playing so others here know.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Oh man if you're playing Doom/Sent/Dorm, I need to play mine against you.My Dorm and Doom are ass anyway.
fgtv is streaming (a tourney) right now if anyone's interested - http://www.twitch.tv/fgtvlive
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Which system?
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I don't have my SF4 copy on PS3 at the moment since I usually play on 360, but I can do Marvel in like 10 min
PSN - EyelessOrphan
EDIT: FSLink beat me to it!
PSN - EyelessOrphan
EDIT: FSLink beat me to it!
GGS man.
Here's the vid: http://youtu.be/AMsMsP0aW2w
It's just two reps of the buktooth loop and two reps of his normal loop afterwards with some optimization here and there. It does a full corner carry, but timing gets tight on larger characters at the very end if you haven't gotten to the corner by then (but if you start a combo in a real match with your back to the corner, you can do a side-switch combo and make things easier on yourself).
Karsticles
Member
Thanks!Now vote!
Why s.H to s.S instead of s.M to f.H for the org relaunch?
Yeah, I need to get my votes in order! I should have time today, a bit later.
For all OTG relaunches with Doom, 90% of the time, st.M -> fwd.H and st.H -> S are more or less interchangeable and involve minimal changes to damage and meter build. The former is preferred when speed is needed and you want to make sure you hit them before the hard knockdown is over. However, st.H hits further away from Doom, so it's better in situations where it's dodgy whether st.M will reach (in certain combos and throw follow-up situations). I don't use st.M into S because it doesn't work against certain characters (fuck you Frank West!).
I hope I answered your question. Honestly, for me, some of it is habit I carried forward from vanilla when the properties of the moves were slightly different- like for the corner loops, I always use fwd.H to launch because S didn't work on certain characters in vanilla, like Jill, IIRC.
Sorry about the double post, but aside from the two versions vs. one version of Firebrand thing, where are we on current 10 characters who haven't been unanimously voted yes on? Some I voted no for smaller things I would like addressed. Frank West seems like the elephant in the room- how do we fix him? Just toning down paddle saw chip doesn't seem enough to keep lvl4+ Frank from dominating, but if lvl 4/5 Frank is nerfed a bit, do we buff levels 1-3 to make up for it? I don't think we've come up with anything good yet to deal with him. Could somebody post the current state of the undecided characters so we could re-evaluate where we stand and get the discussion going again? Is the character change list on the first page up to date?
Frank West lvl4/5 is SUPPOSED to dominate. If he's not top 3 best character in the game then he's garbage. And by top 3 I am talking about truly broke characters like Dark Phoenix, Turnabout Phoenix Wright and Lvl4/5 Frank (and I guess we can include 3+ meter XF Dark Vergil as well).
Karsticles
Member
Step it up, Dante players!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGFmxwdbt4g&feature=player_embedded#t=0
We could skip Firebrand and Frank for now because they are difficult, and come back to them. I feel you on Frank West, but on the other hand, has he even won anything? I think he might be on the borderline where he is acceptable. The most I would be willing to do is tone down his level 4 damage or nerf the roll invincibility a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGFmxwdbt4g&feature=player_embedded#t=0
The second and third thread posts are the current character versions, and the Google doc explains where the votes are.
We could skip Firebrand and Frank for now because they are difficult, and come back to them. I feel you on Frank West, but on the other hand, has he even won anything? I think he might be on the borderline where he is acceptable. The most I would be willing to do is tone down his level 4 damage or nerf the roll invincibility a bit.
Wow. The air play stuff is blowing my mind, I didn't know you could do that. Creative combos right here.
Frank has won stuff but solely as an "assist" character. Kusuro won with Frank and Justin Wong won with Frank (Spencer/Vergil/Frank). This EVO season though (the one going from 2012 to 2013) there were no Frank wins. The character is still a major risk to play on a team.
Of course the counter argument can be made in that no top player is using a completely optimized Frank team (ie. using Dante with him plus a point character who benefits from Jam Session and gets to LVL4 Frank in a single combo).
Of course the counter argument can be made in that no top player is using a completely optimized Frank team (ie. using Dante with him plus a point character who benefits from Jam Session and gets to LVL4 Frank in a single combo).
Zero/Frank/Dante? Seems like that's the team fits the criteria.
Well that's Viscant's new team. It works in terms of getting Frank to LVL4 and has a point character who benefits off of Jam Session but you are giving up one TOD plus possible incoming pressure. I mean it's workable.. you can level up Frank, kill the character some way and tag in Zero.
But then you have to ask yourself... is Frank West winning on this team or is it Zero + Jam Session?
Karsticles
Member
Bee?
Viscant will continue to fail as long as he uses Zero. It's just not his character.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
It's mind boggling how mediocre he is with Zero considering that he is fairly intelligent. And Zero isn't exactly difficult to play
Karsticles
Member
It's just a stylistic issue. People tell me that they can't play Dormammu and that he doesn't make sense to them, but Dormammu just makes sense to me. Yet Wesker and Vergil are basic characters, and I can't play them for crap. Everyone's brain works differently. Viscant is not actually a fantastic Phoenix player, but he is the best Wesker in the world. Zero requires a certain mindset that would probably work well for me, but might not fit Viscant's mind. The sign of great fighting game development is that there are characters that "feel right" for a huge variety of players. This is why Tekken is ass: the characters are only designed for a small contingency of players.
Using airplay to buffer the Rainstorm input is smart stuff. Very interesting, and definitely worth looking into incorporating into my current bnbs. Thanks for the link!
Bee hasn't won anything. Apologyman does better and his team is a fairly optimized Frank team. Tenderizer assist allows him to do dirty incoming mix ups. He is just missing that vertical coverage which Frank honestly doesn't need that much, he makes better use out of Plasma Beam in the neutral. Both Doom and Skrull can get Frank leveled up through their standard combos.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Sorry...missed your post. I'll play if you're still up for it. What system?
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I don't think you can just cite tournament results for your reasoning why Frank is fine- I mean, people used to use the same reasoning to argue Zero wasn't top top tier for the longest time, even though we knew they were full of shit.
I think the differences between us on our stances on Frank come down to how good we currently think he is. If you currently think lvl4 Frank is fair, then you're ok with how things are. I'm surprised Dahbomb has pulled a bit of a 180- how can you go from saying "lvl4+ Frank with jam session is the best character in the game" to "Frank is too inherently risky to win anything"? Part of the reason vanilla Phoenix was so strong was that because of the crazy meter build in the game, the Phoenix player was often practically guaranteed Dark Phoenix if they landed the first hit of the match, which coupled with the fact the Dark Phoenix was a win condition made her ridiculous and she dictated the meta for vanilla. Phoenix was toned down so now landing the first hit no longer guarantees her (TAC infinites notwithstanding, and even then, they are not guaranteed), which along with other nerfs and system changes put a stop to her domination as we moved into ultimate. Phoenix may have been overnerfed due to the double whammy of character nerfs and system changes, but ideally there's a balanced risk/reward for level-up/power-up characters: Phoenix puts harsh restrictions on your ability to use x-factor and meter until the very end of the match, and you can use her assist for combo extension only. Frank is like a Phoenix who (on a Frank optimized team) requires little to no sacrifice, is guaranteed off the opening hit (like vanilla Dark Phoenix), all while providing a top tier neutral assist. Against a lot of the cast, assisted lvl4 Frank can not be fought against. They got to level 4? Time to go back to character select.
I think the differences between us on our stances on Frank come down to how good we currently think he is. If you currently think lvl4 Frank is fair, then you're ok with how things are. I'm surprised Dahbomb has pulled a bit of a 180- how can you go from saying "lvl4+ Frank with jam session is the best character in the game" to "Frank is too inherently risky to win anything"? Part of the reason vanilla Phoenix was so strong was that because of the crazy meter build in the game, the Phoenix player was often practically guaranteed Dark Phoenix if they landed the first hit of the match, which coupled with the fact the Dark Phoenix was a win condition made her ridiculous and she dictated the meta for vanilla. Phoenix was toned down so now landing the first hit no longer guarantees her (TAC infinites notwithstanding, and even then, they are not guaranteed), which along with other nerfs and system changes put a stop to her domination as we moved into ultimate. Phoenix may have been overnerfed due to the double whammy of character nerfs and system changes, but ideally there's a balanced risk/reward for level-up/power-up characters: Phoenix puts harsh restrictions on your ability to use x-factor and meter until the very end of the match, and you can use her assist for combo extension only. Frank is like a Phoenix who (on a Frank optimized team) requires little to no sacrifice, is guaranteed off the opening hit (like vanilla Dark Phoenix), all while providing a top tier neutral assist. Against a lot of the cast, assisted lvl4 Frank can not be fought against. They got to level 4? Time to go back to character select.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Yeah that's my psn name. I'll be in training. Invite me when you're ready
I haven't pulled a 180. Frank + Jam Session is still the best.. but it's SUPPOSED to be the best.
And I wasn't the one who cited tournament results, I just clarified them. I never bring up tournament results in these patch discussions.
The stuff that beats Dark Phoenix still beats Frank. He would still struggle against TA Phoenix Wright, he would still struggle against a full meter Vergil throwing Spiral Swords at him, he still can't easily approach a set up Morrigan AV or a charged spell Dorm or a Viper sitting on EX Seismo.
And I wasn't the one who cited tournament results, I just clarified them. I never bring up tournament results in these patch discussions.
The stuff that beats Dark Phoenix still beats Frank. He would still struggle against TA Phoenix Wright, he would still struggle against a full meter Vergil throwing Spiral Swords at him, he still can't easily approach a set up Morrigan AV or a charged spell Dorm or a Viper sitting on EX Seismo.
How are you OK with it being the best when getting it is absurdly easy? PW's powered up mode is difficult to get and operates on a timer. Getting Dark Phoenix requires several key early match sacrifices. Powered up Frank is as good as them or better with almost none of the risk/sacrifice. You cited the handful of characters that can fight level 4+ Frank, but the other 90% of the cast has 0 answers.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
GG's smurf. Lag certainly wasn't helping either of us. As soon as I saw your team I knew I was fucked. 3 of the 5 characters in the game that completely wreck me all on one team, hell I was surprised I got that one win.
EDIT: Oh and sorry I didn't see your message about my best team. Doubt it would've mattered because of Haggar and Task
EDIT: Oh and sorry I didn't see your message about my best team. Doubt it would've mattered because of Haggar and Task
what is your best team?