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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
It'd help my timing. At the end of Vanilla, I had all the combo follow ups down to a science, then they changed it and fucked them all up. >_>
Also, he had much worse advantage in vanilla(and he doesn't have advantage here, either. I throw him out of air zips all the time) since his travel speed was slower. They didn't change any of the hitstun or blockstun values from vanilla to Ultimate. The values in the guide are point blank air vs ground advantages, not fullscreen. You can actually punish him on hit sometimes.
I have the same issue... I cannot for the life of me be consistent with midscreen TK Air Grapple M > Zipline follow up. I have to do the cr.LMH xx Zip loop/corner carry combo for consistency...
Karsticles
Member
It's too bad Spencer held Yipes back in this set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?=1&v=jtltn9NMvfY
Damn it Yipes, where are your anti-DP setups. -_-
Also:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discuss...chups-let-me-know-what-u-guys-think-fchamp/p1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?=1&v=jtltn9NMvfY
Damn it Yipes, where are your anti-DP setups. -_-
Also:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discuss...chups-let-me-know-what-u-guys-think-fchamp/p1
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Reposting away from the joke post
Felicia
Neko Punch now wall bounces or becomes an overhead that chains to S, Damage Increase from 40k to 60k to match Rolling Slide - This shit is useless at the moment, if Neko Punch becomes an overhead Rolling Slide and Neko Punch become unsafe on block.
You may now cancel Rolling Uppercut with any Delta Kick - This shit is also useless at the moment
Cat Spike M hit box increased to hit all crouching characters that are below it - For combo purposes make it unsafe on block
Rolling Slide assist no longer pops up - creates another asisst in the game that can work as a functional low hitting assist without screwing most of the combos up in the cast
Toy Touch HSD returned to MVC3 levels - Will allow her to do proper non gimped combos off all her throws, Hell Cat L HSD increased as a trade off
Please Help Me travel speed increase/hard knockdown removed/recovery at end reduced - Will allow her to combo it in more situations and use it as a reversal better. Hard knockdown removed to compensate for the improvement
Kitty Helper walks 15% faster - If felicia is fighting the opponent in the corner kitty helper has to walk across the stage before it even comes into effect this cuts the empty use time down on this super
You may block while wall clinging - prevents accidental hits when chicken guarding in the corner
Damage Scaling cut back across the board by 10% - she's a super short range rushdown character and her damage is shit BUT the other changes all going in would be a reason to keep her damage the same at the moment.
-not that important-
Meter Charge gain rate increased by 15% - Not needed really just something to make the move more useful as it's only really used to cancel or when a character is dead
Cat Crawl travel frames cut by 1/3 of the current, start up and recovery not changed - This shit is slow as fuck it's ment for a mix up/ projectile avoidance tool but the move is so slow it just leaves it predictable and completely reactable. BUT if most of the other changes make it in improving this would be too much.
Some stuff to think about. But what this does is make her an extremely effective rush down character with a high/low/throw mix up game once she get's in while keeping most of her weaknesses against characters in place to keep her in check.
Felicia
Neko Punch now wall bounces or becomes an overhead that chains to S, Damage Increase from 40k to 60k to match Rolling Slide - This shit is useless at the moment, if Neko Punch becomes an overhead Rolling Slide and Neko Punch become unsafe on block.
You may now cancel Rolling Uppercut with any Delta Kick - This shit is also useless at the moment
Cat Spike M hit box increased to hit all crouching characters that are below it - For combo purposes make it unsafe on block
Rolling Slide assist no longer pops up - creates another asisst in the game that can work as a functional low hitting assist without screwing most of the combos up in the cast
Toy Touch HSD returned to MVC3 levels - Will allow her to do proper non gimped combos off all her throws, Hell Cat L HSD increased as a trade off
Please Help Me travel speed increase/hard knockdown removed/recovery at end reduced - Will allow her to combo it in more situations and use it as a reversal better. Hard knockdown removed to compensate for the improvement
Kitty Helper walks 15% faster - If felicia is fighting the opponent in the corner kitty helper has to walk across the stage before it even comes into effect this cuts the empty use time down on this super
You may block while wall clinging - prevents accidental hits when chicken guarding in the corner
Damage Scaling cut back across the board by 10% - she's a super short range rushdown character and her damage is shit BUT the other changes all going in would be a reason to keep her damage the same at the moment.
-not that important-
Meter Charge gain rate increased by 15% - Not needed really just something to make the move more useful as it's only really used to cancel or when a character is dead
Cat Crawl travel frames cut by 1/3 of the current, start up and recovery not changed - This shit is slow as fuck it's ment for a mix up/ projectile avoidance tool but the move is so slow it just leaves it predictable and completely reactable. BUT if most of the other changes make it in improving this would be too much.
Some stuff to think about. But what this does is make her an extremely effective rush down character with a high/low/throw mix up game once she get's in while keeping most of her weaknesses against characters in place to keep her in check.
FirstBlood
Member
Everything Spencer does other than down-forward zips is either slow, punishable or both. Throw him all day unless you're locked down by a beam. I've played him since vanilla and it's amazing how the match instantly changes when I see the player actually knows the matchup and makes me respect the throw. Any nerf outside of UVG scaling is incredibly short-sighted.
Also using Armor Piercer defensively is stupid. It's a hail mary, not a consistent tool.
Also using Armor Piercer defensively is stupid. It's a hail mary, not a consistent tool.
I actually think Spencer needs a buff instead of a nerf if you nerf his unscaled up grapple
and i say this as a terrible spencer whose approach options equal to assist and grapple in neutral.
Hes only positive on block if the wire grapple comes from the air, and his buttons are pretty bad overall. His crouching l is good and his standing l is ok but thats about it.
and bionic lancer looses to a bunch of stuff.
and i say this as a terrible spencer whose approach options equal to assist and grapple in neutral.
Hes only positive on block if the wire grapple comes from the air, and his buttons are pretty bad overall. His crouching l is good and his standing l is ok but thats about it.
and bionic lancer looses to a bunch of stuff.
No Deadpool and Phoenix in the Dorm match up?
I never denied that Dorm has a hard time against Spencer but even FChamp thinks it's not something crazy like 1-9 or some shit. Dorm has options against everyone and that includes Spencer. Having bad match up is part of life.
Spencer has more bad match ups than Dorm but like Dorm he still has options. These two characters are fairly well balanced even if they are in the upper echelon of the cast.
And you can't switch motions on characters who have a HCB move and replaced a RDP move with a QCB move. If you guys want to switch Spider Man's Spidey Swing, the best way to do it is to map it to forward + H, like Taskmaster. This would give him a great option select as well.
The best I can do for you is Spidey Swing mapped to forward + H, more initial hit stun on Wib Zip and projectile invincibility start up on Maximum Spider. He doesn't need more health, he has a ton of mobility for the health bracket he is in.
The rest of your changes sound fine though. We will try to put them in.
Viewtiful Joe:
*Red Hot Kick L and M hit OTG.
*Uncharged versions of Voomerang don't disappear if Joe is hit
Assists: Shocking Pink, Viewtiful Uppercut M, Voomerang L (Charged)
Spencer:
*Up grapple now affected by damage decay.
*Armor Piercer assist startup reduced to 35 frames, invincible until frame 36.
Assists: Wire Grapple M, Wire Grapple L, Armor Piercer
Spider-man:
*Web Zip can no longer be block canceled.
*Web Swing input changed from RPD to forward + H
*Web Zip has more initial hit stun for OTG, hit stun returns to normal values as combo length increases
*Maximum Spider has projectile invulnerability start up
Assists: Web Ball H, Web Swing H, Spider Sting H x Spider Bite
Magneto:
*EM Disruptor L assist no longer appears behind the point character.
*Forcefield now reflects projectiles and negates beams.
*Magnetic Blasts are now 3 durability points
*Hyper Grav damage reduced slightly
Assists: EM Disruptor L, Hyper Grav H, Reverse Polarity
Felicia:
*Health increased to 950k
*Sand Splash H assist startup reduced to 37 frames.
*Delta Kick H assist pushes opponents back significantly on block.
*Cat & Mouse is now special cancelable, distance increased slightly.
*Dancing Flash now causes a soft knockdown.
*Dash speed increased slightly.
*Toy Touch HSD returned to Vanilla level
*Neko Punch now an overhead that chains to S, Damage Increase from 40k to 60k to match Rolling Slide
*Felicia may block while clinging
*Cat Spike M hit box increased to hit all crouching characters that are below it
Assists: Rolling Buckler L + Rolling Slide, Sand Splash H, Delta Kick H
I never denied that Dorm has a hard time against Spencer but even FChamp thinks it's not something crazy like 1-9 or some shit. Dorm has options against everyone and that includes Spencer. Having bad match up is part of life.
Spencer has more bad match ups than Dorm but like Dorm he still has options. These two characters are fairly well balanced even if they are in the upper echelon of the cast.
No that's the start up. If you hold down Iron Man's air dash after the initial start up he starts flying for a long distance. This is a useful ability. What's not useful is the start up. I guess it should say momentum but really it's the acceleration. The problem is that Iron Man's starting velocity is so bad. We gave him Vanilla start up property but the rest of the air dash is the same as now.. you can still air dash all the way from SJ height to the floor.
And you can't switch motions on characters who have a HCB move and replaced a RDP move with a QCB move. If you guys want to switch Spider Man's Spidey Swing, the best way to do it is to map it to forward + H, like Taskmaster. This would give him a great option select as well.
Yea if only he could do that with his non whiff cancelable normals against a Bionic Arm. Why didn't I think of that? Let me just play footsies with my st.H against Spencer and see what happens.
Half of these are execution problems, not really problems with the character though.
The best I can do for you is Spidey Swing mapped to forward + H, more initial hit stun on Wib Zip and projectile invincibility start up on Maximum Spider. He doesn't need more health, he has a ton of mobility for the health bracket he is in.
Her scaling is 20/20, that's actually pretty good for the type of character she is. If she had 30/30 that would be too good. I don't think her primary problem is the damage.
The rest of your changes sound fine though. We will try to put them in.
Viewtiful Joe:
*Red Hot Kick L and M hit OTG.
*Uncharged versions of Voomerang don't disappear if Joe is hit
Assists: Shocking Pink, Viewtiful Uppercut M, Voomerang L (Charged)
Spencer:
*Up grapple now affected by damage decay.
*Armor Piercer assist startup reduced to 35 frames, invincible until frame 36.
Assists: Wire Grapple M, Wire Grapple L, Armor Piercer
Spider-man:
*Web Zip can no longer be block canceled.
*Web Swing input changed from RPD to forward + H
*Web Zip has more initial hit stun for OTG, hit stun returns to normal values as combo length increases
*Maximum Spider has projectile invulnerability start up
Assists: Web Ball H, Web Swing H, Spider Sting H x Spider Bite
Magneto:
*EM Disruptor L assist no longer appears behind the point character.
*Forcefield now reflects projectiles and negates beams.
*Magnetic Blasts are now 3 durability points
*Hyper Grav damage reduced slightly
Assists: EM Disruptor L, Hyper Grav H, Reverse Polarity
Felicia:
*Health increased to 950k
*Sand Splash H assist startup reduced to 37 frames.
*Delta Kick H assist pushes opponents back significantly on block.
*Cat & Mouse is now special cancelable, distance increased slightly.
*Dancing Flash now causes a soft knockdown.
*Dash speed increased slightly.
*Toy Touch HSD returned to Vanilla level
*Neko Punch now an overhead that chains to S, Damage Increase from 40k to 60k to match Rolling Slide
*Felicia may block while clinging
*Cat Spike M hit box increased to hit all crouching characters that are below it
Assists: Rolling Buckler L + Rolling Slide, Sand Splash H, Delta Kick H
Yeah, web swing had always been QCB+K and web throw was HCB+P, so they overlap in MvC3. Web swing is just a pain in the ass as a RDP motion in this game. They should simply just switch them. They would still have to make one RDP, but it's less awkward making that move be the web throws, and keeping web swing QCB as it's always been.
Yeah, it's kind of an execution question, but I think their choice of which moves got changed was not a good one initially. Web swing going from QCB to RDP just doesn't feel right coming from older games. It's kids of like Ryu's hurricane kick becoming a RDP. I don't really see the issue in swapping the web throw and web swing. It don't think a directional+attack button is the way to go.
Just make Web Swing forward + H. Best buff ever for Spider Man. Now Spidey players don't have to complain about Taskmaster all the god damn time.
Its a 3 in one buff. Better throw OS, Web Swing now counts as a command normal so its special cancelable and obviously way easier to execute. Should've been like this from the start.
Its a 3 in one buff. Better throw OS, Web Swing now counts as a command normal so its special cancelable and obviously way easier to execute. Should've been like this from the start.
Just curious, what was the reasoning for this one?
*Web Zip can no longer be block canceled.
I feel like people hate Spider-Man for some reason. Maybe just due to timing, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion compared to others. I'd be curious to see more opinions on him. Where's Sasa?
*Web Zip can no longer be block canceled.
I feel like people hate Spider-Man for some reason. Maybe just due to timing, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion compared to others. I'd be curious to see more opinions on him. Where's Sasa?
Karst hates Spider Man and Spencer in general. That's why he only listed nerfs for both characters without any real buffs. Yea that Spider Man is definitely a big problem at high level competition... 
Although Web Zip is much more effective and safer than Zip Line. Spider Man's better up close pressure and speed makes him a big threat as well. He's just harder to play and doesn't output nearly as much damage although after UWG change they would have more parity on that front. If only he had one great assist.
Although Web Zip is much more effective and safer than Zip Line. Spider Man's better up close pressure and speed makes him a big threat as well. He's just harder to play and doesn't output nearly as much damage although after UWG change they would have more parity on that front. If only he had one great assist.
Karst hates Spider Man and Spencer in general. That's why he only listed nerfs for both characters without any real buffs. Yea that Spider Man is definitely a big problem at high level competition...
Although Web Zip is much more effective and safer than Zip Line. Spider Man's better up close pressure and speed makes him a big threat as well. He's just harder to play and doesn't output nearly as much damage although after UWG change they would have more parity on that front. If only he had one great assist.
I'm more of a spectator of this game now and have been following these changes, so I honestly can't speak to a lot of the finer details of these, other than some basic stuff. I've been anxiously awaiting the Spider-Man discussion. I'd hate to see characters get overlooked and not get a fair shake at improvements by the folks coordinating these, especially if they don't play the character or have a particular disdain for some.
Karsticles
Member
I don't hate Spider-man, I just don't think he should be able to block during Web Zip. It's an air dash, bring it to the level of other air dashes. He's Vanilla Amaterasu levels of annoyance. Other than that, I'm concerned about his damage scaling because I've seen 900K-1M 1 bar combos with him. Outside of those things, I don't really have strong opinions on Spider-man. I respect people who play him because he is very difficult to use. He's not brain dead like Spencer.
I'm keeping the Bionic Lancer nerf until someone can convince me otherwise.
Web Zip already OTGs fine. A guy at my locals does a whole ground series into Web Throw before OTGing and continuing the combo. He takes practice to OTG with, but that's the same case for a lot of characters.
Maximum Spider is already 100% invincible until Spider-man touches the wall, so the third change is meaningless.
I'm keeping the Bionic Lancer nerf until someone can convince me otherwise.
I don't embrace changing Web Swing to a command normal. Taskmaster gets this because he's a strong OS character based on fundamentals. Spider-man is inherently a high execution character. Having an RDP in combos...so what?
Web Zip already OTGs fine. A guy at my locals does a whole ground series into Web Throw before OTGing and continuing the combo. He takes practice to OTG with, but that's the same case for a lot of characters.
Maximum Spider is already 100% invincible until Spider-man touches the wall, so the third change is meaningless.
I'm not convinced that this needs to happen.
I don't entirely understand this. She still picks up with Toy Touch just fine, but instead of relaunching with it, she's supposed to use Delta Kick for the ground bounce. I'd like an explanation for why this is actually needed.
An overhead...is it really reasonable to give Felicia a 50/50 every time she touches someone? There's no reasonable way to react to Neko Punch vs. Rolling Slide. It would be a pure guess of a high/low each time. Overheads usually have noteworthy animations to give players a chance to notice them. Neko Punch does not qualify for this. I don't embrace this change.
Why? Clinging should be dangerous - you're hiding away from stuff. If you let her block, too, then it just becomes a way to 100% escape a lot of stuff. Right now, like Firebrand's wall cling, there's a trade-off. I don't know if she can block after the wall cling, but if she can't, I support adding that. But there's no reason to let her hide from a lot of stuff so easily and safely.
Added.
I already tried to convince you and you didn't accept the arguments. Instead you kept citing 2 Nemo matches as counter arguments (out of a sea of Spencer and even Nemo matches).
So now I will cite some more Nemo matches as counter examples as well.
Nemo vs Justin Wong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIG_f8GGrPA
Nemo loses to Wolverine/Storm/Akuma player
Nemo vs Chou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evUekZb7yHo
Nemo loses to Magneto/Doom/Vergil player (Grand Finals of a tournament)
Nemo vs Kusuro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ryMfwTE3aM
Nemo loses to a Viewtiful Joe/Frank West/RR player
Nemo vs Abegen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oTxmkbKOns
Nemo loses to a Tron/Thor/She Hulk player.
Now how is it that Nemo loses to the usual Japanese top players but wins against the top US players? The answer is simple and it's what I have been trying to argue so that people can STOP using Nemo as an example to bolster your arguments.
1) Nemo's team BODIES Dr Doom hardcore. If you have a Missiles team his team will blow your team up. Dr Doom is a free character to his team. Nova + Bolts owns Doom hardcore, Strange alone bodies Dr Doom and Spencer + Bolts bodies Doom (although Spencer alone has trouble against Doom). Guess what... a lot of the teams he lost against didn't have Doom on them.
2) Nemo was prepared for FChamp/ChrisG.... FChamp/ChrisG were not prepared for him. There was no level of respect shown. Nemo had their habits down pat, their opening move gambits, their assist call patterns, their mix ups.... everything was obviously downloaded. If you saw the match and paid attention you will know this ... it's as clear as day. Someone like FChamp had to change his team 3 times to figure him out.
3) Nemo's team works not just for Spencer but for Nova too. In fact Nova was doing most heavy lifting along with Bolts plus FotF loops. Yes Spencer is a big factor of the team but he's not the biggest factor. He's not winning all the matches on the strength of just Spencer. It's a team game. Blaming Spencer as part of the problem is unjust and unfair especially since in most matches he didn't even come into play. If you want to blame anything it's Nova + Bolts as statistically speaking that was what was doing most of the work.
So please from now on stop using Nemo matches as counter examples. In fact Nemo doesn't even use an optimized Spencer team... people should be using optimized Spencer teams as an argument. Who uses optimized Spencer on point teams? Knives and Yipes. Where are they in tournaments? Not making a big splash and usually knocked out before top 8. Now you can blame the team, you can blame the player.. but how the hell are you going to blame the character in these situations?
Now as to why Spencer needs every ounce of that Bionic Arm here's why:
1) Spencer is weak to 3 main types of characters: Armor characters, short characters and fast rushdown characters with fast up close normals. Armor characters do not give a single fuck about Bionic Arm as Hulk's st.H beats Bionic Arm which in fact is way more unfair that Bionic Arm beating your specials (a normal beats out a hyper in this case). Lariat does not care about Bionic Arm. Any rushdown character that has an invincible ground hyper owns Spencer. This includes Spider Man who can easily get in Spencer's face, do whatever pressure and react to Bionic Arm with Crawler Assault. Short characters are hard to zip line and an improperly placed Zipline means dead Spencer. That Kusuro match is a good example of this. Joe is a unique case in that not only is he a short character, he has a ground invincible hyper, an air invincible hyper AND a ground invincible dodge that negates 99% of Spencer's options. Wolverine owns Spencer, X23 owns Spencer. If Wesker in Vanilla owned Spencer because of Rhino Charge, he could react to j.H offense and Bionic Arm on the ground. Taskmaster also does well against Spencer because of great options selects, anti airs and normals. And of course Viper with her myriad of invincible moves and hyper armor.. not single fuck is given about Bionic Arm from Viper.
2) This leaves air dashers and teleporters. Teleporters generally go even with Spencer. Vergil has the biggest problem against Spencer because he cannot cancel his whiffed normals, all of his block strings have gaps that can be beaten by Bionic Arm and Bionic Arm beats SS. Still Vergil has good anti air normals that can keep Spencer at bay AND he has faster ground normals up close. If Vergil plays it extremely honest and patient, he can beat Spencer but he just has to play outside his comfort zone. As far as air dashers go, Spencer does well against most of them. Dormammu is a special case because he has a humongous hit box that is easy to zipine and easy to Bionic Arm. Trying to Bionic Arm a Magneto who is doing Plink Mag Blasts is hard because the move is so safe. If Bionic Arm didn't have that hit box size, Magneto could easily rushdown Spencer and attack from a space that he cannot contest. Doom solo does alright against solo Spencer as he can camp on a screen which is hard to approach for Spencer. Trish is similar, she does alright mostly because she can rushdown Spencer. If Bionic Arm was nerfed, most of these air dashers would have free reign over Spencer in terms of rushing him down. The Magneto match up becomes heavily in his favor if that hit box is nerfed and Magneto is already a character who has phenomenal match ups. Nova also does well against Spencer and he really only has to respect that Bionic Arm because it stuffs out his j.H game hardcore. If he has a shield set up, it's hard for Spencer to do much and that's how Nova baits the Bionic Arm.
3) Against zoners Spencer mostly does well. Few exceptions include Morrigan and Zero. Morrigan and Zero are extremely safe on their actions meaning if they get hit by a Bionic Arm it was their own fault. A Morrigan player has to fuck up really bad to get hit by a Bionic Arm due to unfly. Zero has a smaller hit box and he has godly normals, which makes it hard for Spencer to approach. Not to mention Zero is almost always covered by Jam Session. Both Zero and Morrigan operate at a height where Bionic Arm isn't usually an issue. On the ground Morrigan has Shadow Servant option plus her hit box is ridiculous small so on the ground she is hard to approach. Zero isn't on the ground much and has to have a LVL3 on deck to beat him. If it weren't for Bionic Arm's big hit box, the match would be EXTREMELY lopsided for Zero against Morrigan. Against Dorm, MODOK, Strange Spencer does very well because they have big hit boxes and easier to punish moves. MODOK a bit less so but still has trouble against Spencer. Arthur is kinda 50/50 small hit box but with LVL3 on store Spencer cannot approach Arthur at all nor can he Bionic Arm him.
So yeah this is the situation with Spencer. If you nerf his Bionic Arm it makes characters like Zero and Magneto much tougher to fight against. That hit box is the only thing that keeps those character honest. He has to burn a bar to make them respect which is unsafe, Zero can just pressure him all day with Buster at SJ height.
I am not going to talk about Spencer or Bionic Arm anymore. I am against the Bionic Arm nerf and I am fine putting it to the vote. In fact I WANT this to be put to a vote so we can decide on this fast and move.
So now I will cite some more Nemo matches as counter examples as well.
Nemo vs Justin Wong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIG_f8GGrPA
Nemo loses to Wolverine/Storm/Akuma player
Nemo vs Chou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evUekZb7yHo
Nemo loses to Magneto/Doom/Vergil player (Grand Finals of a tournament)
Nemo vs Kusuro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ryMfwTE3aM
Nemo loses to a Viewtiful Joe/Frank West/RR player
Nemo vs Abegen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oTxmkbKOns
Nemo loses to a Tron/Thor/She Hulk player.
Now how is it that Nemo loses to the usual Japanese top players but wins against the top US players? The answer is simple and it's what I have been trying to argue so that people can STOP using Nemo as an example to bolster your arguments.
1) Nemo's team BODIES Dr Doom hardcore. If you have a Missiles team his team will blow your team up. Dr Doom is a free character to his team. Nova + Bolts owns Doom hardcore, Strange alone bodies Dr Doom and Spencer + Bolts bodies Doom (although Spencer alone has trouble against Doom). Guess what... a lot of the teams he lost against didn't have Doom on them.
2) Nemo was prepared for FChamp/ChrisG.... FChamp/ChrisG were not prepared for him. There was no level of respect shown. Nemo had their habits down pat, their opening move gambits, their assist call patterns, their mix ups.... everything was obviously downloaded. If you saw the match and paid attention you will know this ... it's as clear as day. Someone like FChamp had to change his team 3 times to figure him out.
3) Nemo's team works not just for Spencer but for Nova too. In fact Nova was doing most heavy lifting along with Bolts plus FotF loops. Yes Spencer is a big factor of the team but he's not the biggest factor. He's not winning all the matches on the strength of just Spencer. It's a team game. Blaming Spencer as part of the problem is unjust and unfair especially since in most matches he didn't even come into play. If you want to blame anything it's Nova + Bolts as statistically speaking that was what was doing most of the work.
So please from now on stop using Nemo matches as counter examples. In fact Nemo doesn't even use an optimized Spencer team... people should be using optimized Spencer teams as an argument. Who uses optimized Spencer on point teams? Knives and Yipes. Where are they in tournaments? Not making a big splash and usually knocked out before top 8. Now you can blame the team, you can blame the player.. but how the hell are you going to blame the character in these situations?
Now as to why Spencer needs every ounce of that Bionic Arm here's why:
1) Spencer is weak to 3 main types of characters: Armor characters, short characters and fast rushdown characters with fast up close normals. Armor characters do not give a single fuck about Bionic Arm as Hulk's st.H beats Bionic Arm which in fact is way more unfair that Bionic Arm beating your specials (a normal beats out a hyper in this case). Lariat does not care about Bionic Arm. Any rushdown character that has an invincible ground hyper owns Spencer. This includes Spider Man who can easily get in Spencer's face, do whatever pressure and react to Bionic Arm with Crawler Assault. Short characters are hard to zip line and an improperly placed Zipline means dead Spencer. That Kusuro match is a good example of this. Joe is a unique case in that not only is he a short character, he has a ground invincible hyper, an air invincible hyper AND a ground invincible dodge that negates 99% of Spencer's options. Wolverine owns Spencer, X23 owns Spencer. If Wesker in Vanilla owned Spencer because of Rhino Charge, he could react to j.H offense and Bionic Arm on the ground. Taskmaster also does well against Spencer because of great options selects, anti airs and normals. And of course Viper with her myriad of invincible moves and hyper armor.. not single fuck is given about Bionic Arm from Viper.
2) This leaves air dashers and teleporters. Teleporters generally go even with Spencer. Vergil has the biggest problem against Spencer because he cannot cancel his whiffed normals, all of his block strings have gaps that can be beaten by Bionic Arm and Bionic Arm beats SS. Still Vergil has good anti air normals that can keep Spencer at bay AND he has faster ground normals up close. If Vergil plays it extremely honest and patient, he can beat Spencer but he just has to play outside his comfort zone. As far as air dashers go, Spencer does well against most of them. Dormammu is a special case because he has a humongous hit box that is easy to zipine and easy to Bionic Arm. Trying to Bionic Arm a Magneto who is doing Plink Mag Blasts is hard because the move is so safe. If Bionic Arm didn't have that hit box size, Magneto could easily rushdown Spencer and attack from a space that he cannot contest. Doom solo does alright against solo Spencer as he can camp on a screen which is hard to approach for Spencer. Trish is similar, she does alright mostly because she can rushdown Spencer. If Bionic Arm was nerfed, most of these air dashers would have free reign over Spencer in terms of rushing him down. The Magneto match up becomes heavily in his favor if that hit box is nerfed and Magneto is already a character who has phenomenal match ups. Nova also does well against Spencer and he really only has to respect that Bionic Arm because it stuffs out his j.H game hardcore. If he has a shield set up, it's hard for Spencer to do much and that's how Nova baits the Bionic Arm.
3) Against zoners Spencer mostly does well. Few exceptions include Morrigan and Zero. Morrigan and Zero are extremely safe on their actions meaning if they get hit by a Bionic Arm it was their own fault. A Morrigan player has to fuck up really bad to get hit by a Bionic Arm due to unfly. Zero has a smaller hit box and he has godly normals, which makes it hard for Spencer to approach. Not to mention Zero is almost always covered by Jam Session. Both Zero and Morrigan operate at a height where Bionic Arm isn't usually an issue. On the ground Morrigan has Shadow Servant option plus her hit box is ridiculous small so on the ground she is hard to approach. Zero isn't on the ground much and has to have a LVL3 on deck to beat him. If it weren't for Bionic Arm's big hit box, the match would be EXTREMELY lopsided for Zero against Morrigan. Against Dorm, MODOK, Strange Spencer does very well because they have big hit boxes and easier to punish moves. MODOK a bit less so but still has trouble against Spencer. Arthur is kinda 50/50 small hit box but with LVL3 on store Spencer cannot approach Arthur at all nor can he Bionic Arm him.
So yeah this is the situation with Spencer. If you nerf his Bionic Arm it makes characters like Zero and Magneto much tougher to fight against. That hit box is the only thing that keeps those character honest. He has to burn a bar to make them respect which is unsafe, Zero can just pressure him all day with Buster at SJ height.
I am not going to talk about Spencer or Bionic Arm anymore. I am against the Bionic Arm nerf and I am fine putting it to the vote. In fact I WANT this to be put to a vote so we can decide on this fast and move.
Karsticles
Member
Just to be clear, you said Spencer is "figured out". I proved that you were full of shit. End of discussion. Spencer is a very good character who still takes top players down. I don't need to prove that he's the best in the game or something, because that's not the argument. I don't care if Spencer has lost a million matches, he's clearly not "figured out", and that's the only thing I argued against. I don't even know how people can "figure out" a character who has lows, highs, command grabs, and a reversal all right in front of your face. He's as figured out as She-Hulk is when she's in front of you; it's a guessing game once he gets in. Which is fine, I'm okay with that. I just want Bionic Lancer nerfed; I don't want to destroy the character even though he's brain dead.
Felicia:
*Sand Splash H assist startup reduced to 37 frames.
*Delta Kick H assist pushes opponents back significantly on block.
*Cat & Mouse is now special cancelable, distance increased slightly.
*Dancing Flash now causes a soft knockdown.
*Dash speed increased slightly.
*Neko Punch now causes a crumple state. (or dizzy?)
*Rolling Uppercut is now cancelable into Delta Kick.
*Cat Spike M vertical hitbox increased downward; now hits crouching characters more consistently.
Assists: Rolling Buckler L + Rolling Slide, Sand Splash H, Delta Kick H
Amaterasu:
*Bloom's frame data is now the same as Dark Harmonizer.
Assists: Cold Star H, Power Slash H, Bloom
Magneto:
*EM Disruptor L assist no longer appears behind the point character.
*Forcefield now reflects projectiles and negates beams.
*Hyper Grav (all versions) damage reduced to 50,000.
Assists: EM Disruptor L, Hyper Grav H, Reverse Polarity
Spencer:
*Up grapple now affected by damage decay.
*Armor Piercer assist startup reduced to 35 frames, invincible until frame 36.
*Bionic Lancer vertical hitbox reduced slightly; no longer connects on opponents near maximum jump height.
Assists: Wire Grapple M, Wire Grapple L, Armor Piercer
Spider-man:
*Web Zip can no longer be block canceled.
*Web Ball H (assist) is unaffected by hitstun deterioration.
*Minimum special damage scaling reduced to 15%.
Assists: Web Ball H, Web Swing H, Spider Sting H x Spider Bite
Viewtiful Joe:
*Red Hot Kick L and M hit OTG.
*Viewtiful Uppercut M (assist) now allows for full combos on crossover counter.
*Voomerang (all non-charged versions) no longer disappears when Viewtiful Joe is hit.
Assists: Shocking Pink, Viewtiful Uppercut M, Voomerang L (Charged)
If RDP is not a big deal, why not switch it w/ web throw to make it a QCB to throw Spidey players a bone? It's a pretty common request.
How common is Spidey OTG-ing consistently by the vast majority of players? I think it's much harder than it looks for most, especially compared to the OTGs for so many others. I dunno if going by some select players with killer execution is enough to dismiss it. I don't see the harm in making a character somewhat more accessible.
Even if you catch a character doing a fireball, if you clip it during the downward part of Max Spider it knocks him out. Didn't it used to go through fireballs in earlier games to punish? Tons of other characters are able to punish something like this with their supers. The recovery is years, so if it's meaningless, what's the harm in letting it go through fireballs? If you mess up in such a punish and get blocked you're dead.
I'd argue that he's a unique character and his web zip doesn't really equate to an air dash 1:1. He's fragile enough that he needs something.
Professor Beef
Banned
Dahbomb's defense of Bionic Lancer was something along the lines of "hey dude that shit was hype during that one tournament a year and a half ago, c'mon dawg." Seemed pretty convincing IMO.
Karsticles
Member
I'm more inclined to make it an option select (f.H) than to swap the inputs. That seems unnecessarily messy, and HCB is a good input for Web Throw (you use that more in Spider-man combos than Web Swing). If you have trouble doing RDP during a combo, you must really struggle with it in the neutral. Now one of your best tools, Web Throw, is an RDP motion, while a largely combo-only tool is more accessible. Is that really an improvement to you?
I don't know the vast majority of players, but the Spider-man players I know OTG every time. Then again, the main Spider-man player I've played against is Brightside.
My concern is that you can't increase the hitstun on Web Glide's OTG without also increasing the hitstun on it as a normal move - it's the same hit. So to make Web Glide easier to OTG for people who suck at the game, you're giving Web Glide a general buff that it really does not need. This not only buffs his neutral game pressure, which isn't needed, but it might also open up more high-damaging combos.
I don't think Maximum Spider should be 100% projectile invincible all the way through. "Make it invincible to projectiles" is the single most tiring buff to hear over and over. Spider-man can already punish a lot of stuff with this move. Basically, any hyper that is quick and then done can be punished easily.
No character should get an air dash that creates a full screen hit box and lets him block during travel. The only characters I would ever consider letting block during their air dashes are Hsien-ko, because it's really linear and predictable, and Amaterasu for the same reason. On that note, I don't know what to do with Amaterasu, but I feel like she needs buffs, particularly for her mobility.
I know I was convinced.
You didn't prove shit. You just cited 2 matches. Any character in the game can take matches off top players. He's figured out by most top players.
And my arguments for why the arm shouldn't be nerfed are listed. Provided more match footage, provided more reasoning. If this is not sufficient than nothing will be.
Put this to the vote.
Karsticles
Member
Oh, and I was thinking about She-Hulk's Shooting Star last night. That move has such huge startup and hardly ever gets used. How about giving it 1 hit of super armor? I mean, right now whenever I see her go for it I think "oooh, free hit" because she spends so much time in the air that I can prepare for it.
Do you know what "figured out" means?
Figured out doesn't mean a character is going to keep losing matches all the time.
Figured out means people know what kind of zip lines are punishable, how the overhead mix up can be punished, how to bait out Bionic Arms, how to beat Bionic Arm XF mix up. People know he has slow normals, people know about how to get out of his mix ups and people know how to rush him down, contain him and win matches against him.
Just like how Wesker is figured out now. He can still take matches off top players and win big.
Figured out means people know what kind of zip lines are punishable, how the overhead mix up can be punished, how to bait out Bionic Arms, how to beat Bionic Arm XF mix up. People know he has slow normals, people know about how to get out of his mix ups and people know how to rush him down, contain him and win matches against him.
Just like how Wesker is figured out now. He can still take matches off top players and win big.
So then, isn't Spider-Man is overall getting nerfed by these patch suggestions? Is that really necesary? Isn't he a mid-tier at very best, while most other characters are getting improvements? Sentinel, with some super-easy, high-damage BnBs and a killer assist gets more health, but Spidey gets nothing useful except a nerf to one of his major tools (zip)? Shouldn't a high execution B-tier character get some sort of net positive out of these or at the very worst left alone? Is he really a problem as-is?
Dante should be on Champ's list as at least a 6-4 matchup. I was tired last night and didn't even notice he wasn't.
And even if you nerf Bionic Lancer's hitbox so the hitbox levels out with the top of his arm, some characters are still going to get hit at max jump height because of shitty hurtboxes.
And even if you nerf Bionic Lancer's hitbox so the hitbox levels out with the top of his arm, some characters are still going to get hit at max jump height because of shitty hurtboxes.
They did just give Makoto that buff for SF4. I mean for Marvel this is extremely minor.
Just make it projective invincible on start up, not all the way. Or make it like Nova and not have it be projectile invincible start up but all the way after the start up. In either case it's going to be unsafe and won't lead into much.
Karsticles
Member
Oh my god, you went back and edited an old post again. Why do you do that? I don't re-read posts.
All of the match listings are irrelevant, because clearly Spencer is not figured out when he beats top players still. It doesn't matter how much Nemo has lost in the past, at the most recent major event, the biggest and most important event, he stomped two top players.
Why are you listing who beats Bionic Lancer? What does that have to do with whether its vertical hitbox should be reduced slightly? None of these characters are even in the air, so the nerf wouldn't even apply to them. Get on topic.
Arthur has plenty of answers to Bionic Lancer. Gold Armor is invincible; he can just do that on reaction and will be fine. Arthur's aerial projectiles are only slightly less safe than Morrigan's when done properly (superjump j.S cancel over and over).
You're right that Bionic Lancer is not an issue for Morrigan or Zero; it's just not a tool that gets used very often against them. So therefore, nerfing its vertical hitbox slightly won't actually affect the matchup, because it's already useless.
And yeah, I feel like Dante is 6-4 against Dormammu. Definitely a matchup I have trouble with on the rare occasion that I fight a good Dante.
All of the match listings are irrelevant, because clearly Spencer is not figured out when he beats top players still. It doesn't matter how much Nemo has lost in the past, at the most recent major event, the biggest and most important event, he stomped two top players.
You think Spencer has a bad matchup against Hulk? Hahahaha. Dear god!
Why are you listing who beats Bionic Lancer? What does that have to do with whether its vertical hitbox should be reduced slightly? None of these characters are even in the air, so the nerf wouldn't even apply to them. Get on topic.
If you watched the Yipes vs. FChamp set from last night, you would have seen that Spencer went even against Magneto. Bionic Lancer was only used to open him up in one instance. Spencer does fine against air dashers, but he does have problems with Hidden Missiles. It's a very good tool that keeps Spencer in check, and we're nerfing it. Spencer is also welcome to get a goddamn anti-air like the rest of the world if air dashers are such a problem for him. As Bee has shown, he performs pretty well with Jam Session.
I bolded the contradiction for you.
Arthur has plenty of answers to Bionic Lancer. Gold Armor is invincible; he can just do that on reaction and will be fine. Arthur's aerial projectiles are only slightly less safe than Morrigan's when done properly (superjump j.S cancel over and over).
You're right that Bionic Lancer is not an issue for Morrigan or Zero; it's just not a tool that gets used very often against them. So therefore, nerfing its vertical hitbox slightly won't actually affect the matchup, because it's already useless.
He can still nab them, he just can't do it all the way at jump height. And Spencer can get a goddamn anti-air tool if he has problems with aerial characters. No one complains about how Wesker has trouble with aerial characters because the people who use him started using Vajra if they know what they are doing. We've added a ton of anti-airs to the game. Certainly Spencer players have a ton of options to cover his matchups now.
I plan on sticking with it through the rest of our discussions.
We aren't done talking about Spider-man.
Figured out means controllable.
What characters?
And yeah, I feel like Dante is 6-4 against Dormammu. Definitely a matchup I have trouble with on the rare occasion that I fight a good Dante.
It's already 100% invincible until it touches the wall.
Figured out DOES mean controllable and Spencer IS controllable. If he wasn't he would be tearing up tournaments. That was my point. He is less controllable by particular characters but overall across the entire roster... he is definitely controllable. It does not mean "not beatable by top players" if that was the case he would be top 3.
The part that you bolded is not a contradiction mostly because Zero usually does appear at a spot that can be hit by Bionic Arm. It's not often but that small window of opportunity does present itself. The more you nerf the hit box, the fewer opportunities there are. Same for Morrigan especially at start of game. That's how ChrisG lost against Senor Taxi.
And again, put this to the vote. I don't care to argue this anymore... you state that my matches are irrelevant but yours are (they were still MM matches, they weren't actual tournament matches). I can't take this type of discussion seriously, just put it to a vote and end this.
The part that you bolded is not a contradiction mostly because Zero usually does appear at a spot that can be hit by Bionic Arm. It's not often but that small window of opportunity does present itself. The more you nerf the hit box, the fewer opportunities there are. Same for Morrigan especially at start of game. That's how ChrisG lost against Senor Taxi.
And again, put this to the vote. I don't care to argue this anymore... you state that my matches are irrelevant but yours are (they were still MM matches, they weren't actual tournament matches). I can't take this type of discussion seriously, just put it to a vote and end this.
Karsticles
Member
Spencer doesn't tear up tournaments for the same reason Zero didn't tear up tournaments until recently: no top players used him. The best tournament Spencer player in the USA is fucking Yipes. When ComboFiend played, he destroyed. Even though he stuck with a really crappy team, he still rocked people with Spencer. If he still played seriously, we wouldn't even be arguing about how relevant Spencer is, because he would make sure you know.
Spencer is not controllable, not by any stretch.
They we agree to disagree. You think Spencer is some uber top, uncontrollable character and I don't. I have given my perspective and argument, you have given yours. As far as the change goes, that just boils down to voting. I am against it.
My only problem with stuff in the game is stuff that is too safe and abusable. If something is punishable and can't be spammed I don't really care about it much.
Web Zip argument is valid, I don't deny it especially since it's basically a much better Zip Line attached to a faster character. We gave him the f+H Spidey Swing I would say that's a fair trade.
That's only a useful property for DHCing out, not for punishing hypers. I don't really care much for Spider Man getting the tool because unless he can solo combo off of it it's not a big deal. I mean we gave X23 option to combo off of her high invincible LVL1, this doesn't really seem that bad.
My only problem with stuff in the game is stuff that is too safe and abusable. If something is punishable and can't be spammed I don't really care about it much.
Web Zip argument is valid, I don't deny it especially since it's basically a much better Zip Line attached to a faster character. We gave him the f+H Spidey Swing I would say that's a fair trade.
Any character with legs that dangle and have pushed a button. Normal jumps without a button have leg invulnerability, but once you push a button your hitbox grows to enormous size and you get them past your feet. Basically characters like Dorm, Nemesis, and I wanna say like Hawkeye.
I'd argue it's 7-3, but 6-4 is a safe number that I figure most people would agree on.
Karsticles
Member
I don't think he's uber top. If someone wanted to suggest a buff for Spencer (no one has AFAIK), I'd be open to it. I'd be open to giving Bionic Bomber some more utility, or making his overhead safer, for example. I just think that the spirit of our changes thus far has been "buff smart play, nerf dumb play", and I'm making a suggestion in that same spirit: that Bionic Lancer can't pummel 2/3 of the vertical grounded screen. It's just too dumb. I would love to push Spencer more toward our Wesker incarnation, but you're dead set on keeping the dumb stuff intact without any defensible reasons.
Universal change: legs now invincible while jumping.
Anyway, I still feel strongly that these characters should not be nailed by Bionic Lancer. Nemesis...I wish we could add new animations, because I would change his crappy ground dash into an armored run. That would be sexy.
Dormammu matchups are always hard to gauge because Dormammu + some random assist and Dormammu + Hidden Missiles after being DHCed in safely are two completely different characters to analyze for matchups in most cases. That first scenario might be 7-3 for Dante, but the second one? Not so much.
I don't think your reasons are defensible either (you don't think mine are and that's fine). Bionic Arm still requires a legitimate read, you can't throw it out willy nilly. It punishes bad players and against good players it's not as useful because they play safe.
It's WAY WAY less dumb than Viper's EX Seismo. Bionic Arm is a commitment, EX Seismo isn't. It's safe on block (+ in fact), has no pre hyper flash screen, has a great vertical hit box (you complain about Bionic Arm but trying to tri dash that is impossible as well), has way more invincibility and also leads into a full combo without taking up stuff like ground bounce/wall bounce. And the move can be used off of a HYPER ARMOR move making it even less of an actual read. For moves that require more horizontal reach she has EX Thunderknuckle which beat most zoning options in the game.
No one makes that big of a deal about EX moves because they require a resource much like Bionic Arm. EX Seismo is like top 5 best move in the game and we only gave it a slight nerf. It's still way better than Bionic Arm by the way.
Reducing the hit box of the hyper does not do anything to mitigate dumb play. People will use it, have it whiff.. then complain to Capcom about changing it. Much like how Wesker's counter was changed, people will just use it less, curse Capcom and ask for it back. All reducing the hit box of Bionic Arm does is nerf the character and makes his bad match ups worse. If you are OK with it that's fine, I am not OK with it.
So put it to a god damn vote already.
It's WAY WAY less dumb than Viper's EX Seismo. Bionic Arm is a commitment, EX Seismo isn't. It's safe on block (+ in fact), has no pre hyper flash screen, has a great vertical hit box (you complain about Bionic Arm but trying to tri dash that is impossible as well), has way more invincibility and also leads into a full combo without taking up stuff like ground bounce/wall bounce. And the move can be used off of a HYPER ARMOR move making it even less of an actual read. For moves that require more horizontal reach she has EX Thunderknuckle which beat most zoning options in the game.
No one makes that big of a deal about EX moves because they require a resource much like Bionic Arm. EX Seismo is like top 5 best move in the game and we only gave it a slight nerf. It's still way better than Bionic Arm by the way.
Reducing the hit box of the hyper does not do anything to mitigate dumb play. People will use it, have it whiff.. then complain to Capcom about changing it. Much like how Wesker's counter was changed, people will just use it less, curse Capcom and ask for it back. All reducing the hit box of Bionic Arm does is nerf the character and makes his bad match ups worse. If you are OK with it that's fine, I am not OK with it.
So put it to a god damn vote already.
Karsticles
Member
We need everyone here for a vote.
If you think EX Seismo needs more of a nerf, then give it one. I'd be fine with it. I didn't make a lot of C. Viper suggestions because I never play against the character and I don't use her. Comparing a dumb move to a dumber move is an argument to nerf both moves, not to keep the dumb move intact.
I think the nerfs we gave EX moves now are fine. It needed a nerf way more than Bionic Arm did. I was just pointing out the comparison to the old game.
Dumb is when you do something and there are no repercussions. Like what Helm Breaker into HSH into Judment Cut/Rapid Slash is. It's brain dead and is dumb.... extremely hard to punish or do anything about. That's why we nerfed it. With a Bionic Arm there is always that "what if I miss" element to it. Any good Spencer player has to properly gauge the risk vs reward in the situation. Risk is lose one bar, gets Spencer punished, possibly lose Spencer, possibly lose on the incoming and lose the game and reward is get a hit, get a combo, possibly kill the character, possibly win the incoming and win the game. That's essentially even right there... it's a big move with big repercussions.
And why are there no Amaterasu changes? Fuck Spencer man ... give Ammy some changes for god sakes!
Also 50K on Magneto's Grav is too low. That's a big drop in his big combos. I suggest 60K at the minimum.
Why are we nerfing Spider Man's damage?
Dumb is when you do something and there are no repercussions. Like what Helm Breaker into HSH into Judment Cut/Rapid Slash is. It's brain dead and is dumb.... extremely hard to punish or do anything about. That's why we nerfed it. With a Bionic Arm there is always that "what if I miss" element to it. Any good Spencer player has to properly gauge the risk vs reward in the situation. Risk is lose one bar, gets Spencer punished, possibly lose Spencer, possibly lose on the incoming and lose the game and reward is get a hit, get a combo, possibly kill the character, possibly win the incoming and win the game. That's essentially even right there... it's a big move with big repercussions.
And why are there no Amaterasu changes? Fuck Spencer man ... give Ammy some changes for god sakes!
Also 50K on Magneto's Grav is too low. That's a big drop in his big combos. I suggest 60K at the minimum.
Why are we nerfing Spider Man's damage?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
When's OT5?
Karsticles
Member
So what makes Bionic Lancer smart is the fact that it can miss. Therefore, my suggestion that it should be easier to miss with it makes it - smarter!
Suggest some.
How big of a drop is it?
Spider-man's web throw loops still do a ton of damage; I'd like to see it curtailed slightly.
Spider Bite should hit overhead and cause a forced ground bounce as an assist.
This is really the only way that assist is going to be good without it being invincible. I tried Spider Man players... I tried giving him a good assist!
Also he really really should get that f+H Web Swing. And he really shouldn't get that damage nerf. Spider Man only does like 900K for 1 meter with Hidden Missiles type assist, off of most other assists he gets way less. Plus we already nerfed Hidden MIssiles from 6 missiles to 4 missiles. Most people aren't going to be using Doom as much which means Spidey has to rely on other assists for damage and pressure. We can't nerf standard Spider Man play just because he gets big damage off of one assist and even then 900K isn't killing anyone except for Strider. Spider Man will still be a point only character mostly, he needs to do good damage to earn his spot.
No what makes Bionic Arm smart is that it's punishable on block not that it misses. If you missed with Bionic Arm, then you made a bad read. If you missed because of a hit box nerf despite making a proper read... that's punishing smart play.
On the point of Magneto, an average Magneto combo can use 3-4 Grav loops. Without even taking scaling into consideration... a 35K reduction in damage (85K to to 50K) is AT LEAST 100K meterless damage lost. That's severe, it should be 65K for Grav Loops. He would lose around 60K damage per combo which is fine IMO.
This is really the only way that assist is going to be good without it being invincible. I tried Spider Man players... I tried giving him a good assist!
Also he really really should get that f+H Web Swing. And he really shouldn't get that damage nerf. Spider Man only does like 900K for 1 meter with Hidden Missiles type assist, off of most other assists he gets way less. Plus we already nerfed Hidden MIssiles from 6 missiles to 4 missiles. Most people aren't going to be using Doom as much which means Spidey has to rely on other assists for damage and pressure. We can't nerf standard Spider Man play just because he gets big damage off of one assist and even then 900K isn't killing anyone except for Strider. Spider Man will still be a point only character mostly, he needs to do good damage to earn his spot.
No what makes Bionic Arm smart is that it's punishable on block not that it misses. If you missed with Bionic Arm, then you made a bad read. If you missed because of a hit box nerf despite making a proper read... that's punishing smart play.
On the point of Magneto, an average Magneto combo can use 3-4 Grav loops. Without even taking scaling into consideration... a 35K reduction in damage (85K to to 50K) is AT LEAST 100K meterless damage lost. That's severe, it should be 65K for Grav Loops. He would lose around 60K damage per combo which is fine IMO.
Karsticles
Member
Yeah, he's kind of in X-23 territory for assists.
Fair enough.
It's a very small nerf; there are still plenty of things for Bionic Lancer to punish. Basically, that list of stuff Bionic Lancer can pummel Dormammu does (everything) would have one less thing on it, and it would still be doable with proper timing from a Spencer player.
SolarPowered
Member
What do you give to a character that has pretty much everything she needs? If you left her alone she'd probably still be in most people's top ten.
*Reduce number of recovery frames on Bloom assist by 30
*Replace Solar Flare with Fireworks assist
I guess.
Cool. Thanks.
Just curious, he has pretty bad DHC synergy, right? Is there anything worth considering in terms of the end of Max Spider?
Nah she won't be in top 10 with all these new characters running around. I mean someone like Skrull now has an equivalent Cold Shot assist that also OTGs! And he can definitely play anchor too.
On the Grav Loop for Magneto, it's not a big drop in terms of damage because Hyper Gravs are used at the end of combos where they are doing like 10K max anyway. It's a big drop in his meter gain where Hyper Grav loops are used. It would still be fair if you made it 50K but I would play it safe and make it 60K. In terms of damage, the Hyper Grav loop basically nerfs one important aspect of Magneto... getting 1 million+ meterless kill from XF1. That would be changed mainly in terms of damage.
The math for meter gain is that it takes around 12 Hyper Gravs alone to build a bar currently (note that he is using j.H's in between so that's he doesn't need that many Gravs to actually build a bar). If it was 50K Hyper Grav, the meter gain is lost considerable and now he would take 20 Hyper Gravs to build the same meter. That's a 40%+ loss in meter gain on that one move. Obviously overall meter gain for Magneto is not that affected since he is doing other moves too but this is still a significant value. That percent difference is lower if you make it 60K because now it takes him 16-17 Gravs to build 1 bar. That's like a 20%+ drop which is fair.
On the Grav Loop for Magneto, it's not a big drop in terms of damage because Hyper Gravs are used at the end of combos where they are doing like 10K max anyway. It's a big drop in his meter gain where Hyper Grav loops are used. It would still be fair if you made it 50K but I would play it safe and make it 60K. In terms of damage, the Hyper Grav loop basically nerfs one important aspect of Magneto... getting 1 million+ meterless kill from XF1. That would be changed mainly in terms of damage.
The math for meter gain is that it takes around 12 Hyper Gravs alone to build a bar currently (note that he is using j.H's in between so that's he doesn't need that many Gravs to actually build a bar). If it was 50K Hyper Grav, the meter gain is lost considerable and now he would take 20 Hyper Gravs to build the same meter. That's a 40%+ loss in meter gain on that one move. Obviously overall meter gain for Magneto is not that affected since he is doing other moves too but this is still a significant value. That percent difference is lower if you make it 60K because now it takes him 16-17 Gravs to build 1 bar. That's like a 20%+ drop which is fair.
Chris advantage over Dorm with assists. EL - OH - Fucking - EL
Karsticles
Member
Your Chris sucks.
I really liked this at first, but on second thought, I think we should reserve chipping normals on characters with poor mix-up options. Amaterasu is a mix-up demon. I have 10 changes for her ready, I'm just finishing up the other characters. I have a lot of ideas, I have just been tired because we've been going so fast.