Professor Beef
Banned
Karst must defeat my Shoryuken to stand a chance.
GGs! You were calling Missiles like they were going out of style.
GGs! You were calling Missiles like they were going out of style.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
GGs Onionfrog. I wish we could have played more.
GGs Beef. Our connection was really solid. I got bored of playing Thor after a while.
I didn't mean to rematch that last one, which is why I just sat there with Spider-man. It only took a game for me to remember that I don't like him, haha.
Here's where I am:
If I have Dormammu set up, I tend to win unless I'm tired or bored. I want a team that nearly guarantees me Dormammu being set up with Hidden Missiles behind him, but I also want a great assist for Dr. Doom because I like playing him on point sometimes. Time to think...
I'm still getting used to making Hidden Missiles calls. You know me - lots of time with Dark Harmonizer has ruined my ability to call assists properly. Some games I was on point, other games...not so much.
GGs Beef. Our connection was really solid. I got bored of playing Thor after a while.
I didn't mean to rematch that last one, which is why I just sat there with Spider-man. It only took a game for me to remember that I don't like him, haha.Here's where I am:
If I have Dormammu set up, I tend to win unless I'm tired or bored. I want a team that nearly guarantees me Dormammu being set up with Hidden Missiles behind him, but I also want a great assist for Dr. Doom because I like playing him on point sometimes. Time to think...
Haha, not much Thor can do against Shoryuken. He's pretty ass.
I'm still getting used to making Hidden Missiles calls. You know me - lots of time with Dark Harmonizer has ruined my ability to call assists properly. Some games I was on point, other games...not so much.
Professor Beef
Banned
Yeah, I was wondering where that Spider-Man pick came from. :lolGGs Beef. Our connection was really solid. I got bored of playing Thor after a while.
Karsticles
Member
I am not a huge fan of Dr. Strange with Hidden Missiles. It seems like the perfect match, but I feel like Dr. Strange needs Plasma Beam or rocks more. His teleport cross-ups are begging for a horizontal projectile.
I'm just so tired of searching. :-( I do like Doom/Sentinel/Dormammu, but Sentinel is so goddamn bad.
Professor Beef
Banned
Now you know how I feel when I say I can't find a good third character for Joe/Frank!
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I rock Doom/Dorm/Strider sometimes. Works out well enough
Karsticles
Member
You have so many options there. -_-
I've tried that, and I'm just not a fan of Dormammu/Strider. He doesn't get a whole lot off of it.
I use Rocks or Plasma Beam sometimes depending on who I'm against, and Dark Hole isn't too bad for teleport mixups but definitely not as good as Unibeam or something...but my IM still needs work. I also like start of the round Bolts->Lv1 Super while calling missiles so I can get started with setting up Graces. Only works if they're not in my face of course.
Doom on point + Bolts is tons of fun too.
Professor Beef
Banned
Most of those options include characters that I cannot stand using. =P
Karsticles
Member
Doom/Strange/Dormammu is definitely a possibility, but OMG Dr. Strange is boring to play. I want my damn mobility!I use Rocks or Plasma Beam sometimes depending on who I'm against, and Dark Hole isn't too bad for teleport mixups but definitely not as good as Unibeam or something...but my IM still needs work. I also like start of the round Bolts->Lv1 Super while calling missiles so I can get started with setting up Graces. Only works if they're not in my face of course.
Doom on point + Bolts is tons of fun too.
I respect that. I thought Ryu was good for you. Better than your Doom, at least. Ryu is kind of an underrated anchor.
I do Doom/Dorm/Strange for matchups like Wolverine.
And I like Strange, haha, getting FoF loops after a full combo thanks to Doom missiles is awesome. I do wish he had at least a better flight mode if he can't have any dashes.
So it's looking like I may go to Absolute Battle next month, gonna participate in a local Round Robin to see if I can get on the 5v5 team for San Antonio. Hopefully I don't choke it up too much.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Haha, I was about to suggest Doom/Strange/Dorm next. I also run Chris/Dorm/Doom, but you are in absolutely no way guaranteed to have Dorm setup since Chris can't open the round very well. But if you do happen to land any grab or clean hit, then you will be able to setup stalking flare high enough to get your three spells. So if you land a grab at the start then you'll be able to play Dorm comfortably
Karsticles
Member
You deserve it. You are a great player.I do Doom/Dorm/Strange for matchups like Wolverine.
And I like Strange, haha, getting FoF loops after a full combo thanks to Doom missiles is awesome. I do wish he had at least a better flight mode if he can't have any dashes.
So it's looking like I may go to Absolute Battle next month, gonna participate in a local Round Robin to see if I can get on the 5v5 team for San Antonio.
One thing I like about Dormammu is that he is a jack of all trades. He can rush, play a ranged game, and has great mobility. Dr. Doom has these traits to, and that's part of why I enjoy using him. I like having a lot of options to work with. Pure keepaway and pure rushdown get boring to me fast. Firebrand should be a jack of all trades, but his fireballs suck.
Based on my needs and preferences, this is my shortlist:
Magneto
Trish
Morrigan
Arthur (maybe)
Dante (maybe)
I actually find Phoenix to be the second most fun character to play in the game, right behind Dormammu, but there are no great Dormammu/Phoenix teams. Dormammu/Morrigan Phoenix has pretty much every matchup in the game going against it. And my Morrigan is so, so mediocre. I also can't play Magneto for crap.
Yeah, currently with Strange/Dorm/Doom I get a counter hit into Dark Hole, Impact loop, call Doom assist, then Flame loop, and DHC to Dorm and start there. Works pretty well against people unfamiliar with the Strange matchup, otherwise I start with Doom.
And thanks, players around here say I'm pretty good but unfortunately I don't get much tourney experience due to military.
Maybe I'll give Zero/Doom/Dorm a shot, sounds like it'd work well in theory. Sure I could just use Vergil but Dorm's so fun.
And thanks, players around here say I'm pretty good but unfortunately I don't get much tourney experience due to military.
Maybe I'll give Zero/Doom/Dorm a shot, sounds like it'd work well in theory. Sure I could just use Vergil but Dorm's so fun.
Incidentally all the characters in the top 5-6 are capable of both rushing down and zoning. Well I guess Vergil is a bit of an exception but he controls space and more importantly he controls XF activation like the other zoners. This is why characters like Wolverine and Spencer aren't top 5 because they can't maintain health/resource lead as the characters in top 5 or even assist in that department like Doom.
FChamp talked about this too. He said that when you are 3 v 1 against someone like Doom who is sitting on XF3, he can only win if he gets in and he's only going to get in against rushdown heavy teams which lack real neutral options.
On the oppposite end, if you don't have some rushdown/mix up capability on your team then you are free to Phoenix, Vergil amd Strider teams as they will get to play. There is no top tier team that excels in only one department.
FChamp talked about this too. He said that when you are 3 v 1 against someone like Doom who is sitting on XF3, he can only win if he gets in and he's only going to get in against rushdown heavy teams which lack real neutral options.
On the oppposite end, if you don't have some rushdown/mix up capability on your team then you are free to Phoenix, Vergil amd Strider teams as they will get to play. There is no top tier team that excels in only one department.
"God's Beard!"
Member
The only team I'm seeing is Trish/Dormammu/Dante.Trish actually makes great use of the Dark Hole assist and Jam Session works well for both characters. You don't get unblockables, but you can raw tag to Dante off of Round Harvest and call Dark Hole and get a bunch of chip with a couple mixups. You could even go nuts and charge the tracking laser. Or you could just tag to Dorm and charge up.
Personally I'd go with Trish/Viper/Dorm but I don't think that's an option for you.
I really love Trish but her teams just aren't my characters. Except Wesker, but I like my fullscreen action with him.
Karsticles
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";85778653]The only team I'm seeing is Trish/Dormammu/Dante.Trish actually makes great use of the Dark Hole assist and Jam Session works well for both characters. You don't get unblockables, but you can raw tag to Dante off of Round Harvest and call Dark Hole and get a bunch of chip with a couple mixups. You could even go nuts and charge the tracking laser. Or you could just tag to Dorm and charge up.
Personally I'd go with Trish/Viper/Dorm but I don't think that's an option for you.
I really love Trish but her teams just aren't my characters. Except Wesker, but I like my fullscreen action with him.[/QUOTE]
The goal is for this to be a Dormammu team, and neither of those are good ones. I just want to also look forward to playing my other two characters.
Personally I'd go with Trish/Viper/Dorm but I don't think that's an option for you.
I really love Trish but her teams just aren't my characters. Except Wesker, but I like my fullscreen action with him.[/QUOTE]
The goal is for this to be a Dormammu team, and neither of those are good ones.
I just want to also look forward to playing my other two characters.kevo_huevo
Member
Is there anything else I should be trying when rushing down against zoning/keepaway teams with nova/spencer/taskmaster? I still have trouble getting in, and I realize this is probably just the way it is for this team; just looking for less autopilot-y ways to play this matchup.
-gravimetric pulse H, call taskmaster horizontal arrows (I find this is too slow and too obvious for a thc punish)
-call arrows, super jump at different heights + box dash H
-spencer: zip up, call arrows and diagonal zip down
-call arrows, wavedash behind them
I've toyed with vertical arrows before, though it isn't as effective in a thc when it's down to spencer/taskmaster.
-gravimetric pulse H, call taskmaster horizontal arrows (I find this is too slow and too obvious for a thc punish)
-call arrows, super jump at different heights + box dash H
-spencer: zip up, call arrows and diagonal zip down
-call arrows, wavedash behind them
I've toyed with vertical arrows before, though it isn't as effective in a thc when it's down to spencer/taskmaster.
Karsticles
Member
Here are the characters we have yet to agree upon:
Felicia - missing Frantic's vote
Firebrand - missing Dahbomb's, Frantic's, and Zissou's vote on the finalized un-unblockable version (the front page has been updated)
Frank West - Zissou wants another change, and this is what I propose:
This reduces the invincibility on that hyper by about half, but keeps it useful. Now he is much more capable of being zoned. I played a good 50 matches with Professor Beef last night, and while Frank West is a tough opponent when leveled up, I never felt like he was anywhere near Dark Phoenix or Vergil. Zissou, I think you could benefit from changing up the characters you play a bit. It seems like all of the characters you think are too good are the characters that Dr. Doom loses to (Dormammu, Morrigan, Frank West, Viewtiful Joe). Try to look outside of those matchups; your Doom is not the one that will be in our patch.
Dormammu - Zissou gives a general "he shouldn't get that many buffs" comment every time, but he still has not actually said that the problem is. He has even said that he thinks all the individual buffs are fine, but he just does not like them all together. I also think that he is underestimating the Flame Carpet nerf - this is a huge setback for Dormammu. I would like Dormammu to pass on 4/4 votes like every other character, but if Zissou can't provide some contentful thought about his vote, I guess he will have to go on 3/4.
Jill - Zissou dislikes the neutral tech from her throw, but I think it totally fits her and makes her interesting. Jill's neutral tech would not lead to unblockables - the opponent recovers too fast. We can always include a note about ensuring this is the case in the annotations, too. Without some conversation from Zissou, this may have to pass on a 3/4 vote.
Magneto - you all know how I feel about this change, and Zissou has not voted on him yet. If Zissou votes for Magneto, we will have to pass him on a 3/4 vote, because I am not willing to give Magnetic Blast ground recovery time for the reasons I have stated before (should not be trip guardable, and will mess with his hit confirms and combos).
MODOK - We need to remove his unblockable. I suggest that we make c.M no longer hit low, but stay out for 120 frames (currently 60). Let me know what you all think. I will clear the votes for MODOK since we all now agree that removing the unblockable is a priority.
Morrigan - Zissou is against giving her an aerial command grab for reasons he has not yet explained. If he does not provide a contentful objection, we will have to pass her on a 3/4 vote. I think her need for this is very clear, since she has the worst approach mix-ups in the game next to Tron Bonne.
Spencer - waiting on Frantic. Let's just leave the Wire Zip infinite to Capcom, I say.
Spider-man - missing everyone's votes but me!
Super-Skrull - apparently there are problems with making Brutal Pile Dunker safe, and I don't understand that. Skrull has NO safe approach options and no real neutral game. I mean that he literally has no tools at all that are safe for approaching and getting in. He is not used at all in competitive play outside of the anchor position because of Meteor Smash BS. This character needs help whether you hate him or not. I hate playing against Skrull, too, but he should have one reliable approach tool. The move is not even as good as Helm Breaker, and it will still be less safe than it, too. If you don't want Brutal Pile Dunker to be safe, we need to have a conversation about how to help Skrull. If his BS needs to be reduced, we can talk about that, too.
Taskmaster - I think my votes might be out of date - would everyone please re-vote on Taskmaster with his unblockable changed to an overhead? Thanks. I am a "Y".
Thor - are my votes out of date here, too? I think I remember everyone approving this version. Or is there still stuff to talk about?
Viewtiful Joe - Zissou thinks that charged Voomerang spam is too good, and I do not agree. In fact, last night Beef tried to do it to me a lot of times, and I always got through it even with Dr. Doom. I agree it is annoying, but Viewtiful Joe is annoying in general. I don't think it's too good, and I think that the only reason people get whomped by it is the wonky graphic remaining even after its hits are expended. We have fixed that, and I think it will be much more doable now.
Wolverine - what is the problem here?
Let's get the communication flowing here and wrap this up this weekend. I really, really would rather not pass any character on a 3/4 vote. We should be on a united front. I encourage everyone who is the sole "N" on a character to discuss their issues and come to a compromise of some kind. For example, I will gladly reduce the Magnetic Blast frame advantage on block even though it is change I am not fond of to remove the 3 frames of ground recovery, which I abhor. Notice that this is my only "N" on the entire page - I feel very strongly about this.
Felicia - missing Frantic's vote
Firebrand - missing Dahbomb's, Frantic's, and Zissou's vote on the finalized un-unblockable version (the front page has been updated)
Frank West - Zissou wants another change, and this is what I propose:
This reduces the invincibility on that hyper by about half, but keeps it useful. Now he is much more capable of being zoned. I played a good 50 matches with Professor Beef last night, and while Frank West is a tough opponent when leveled up, I never felt like he was anywhere near Dark Phoenix or Vergil. Zissou, I think you could benefit from changing up the characters you play a bit. It seems like all of the characters you think are too good are the characters that Dr. Doom loses to (Dormammu, Morrigan, Frank West, Viewtiful Joe). Try to look outside of those matchups; your Doom is not the one that will be in our patch.
Dormammu - Zissou gives a general "he shouldn't get that many buffs" comment every time, but he still has not actually said that the problem is. He has even said that he thinks all the individual buffs are fine, but he just does not like them all together. I also think that he is underestimating the Flame Carpet nerf - this is a huge setback for Dormammu. I would like Dormammu to pass on 4/4 votes like every other character, but if Zissou can't provide some contentful thought about his vote, I guess he will have to go on 3/4.
Jill - Zissou dislikes the neutral tech from her throw, but I think it totally fits her and makes her interesting. Jill's neutral tech would not lead to unblockables - the opponent recovers too fast. We can always include a note about ensuring this is the case in the annotations, too. Without some conversation from Zissou, this may have to pass on a 3/4 vote.
Magneto - you all know how I feel about this change, and Zissou has not voted on him yet. If Zissou votes for Magneto, we will have to pass him on a 3/4 vote, because I am not willing to give Magnetic Blast ground recovery time for the reasons I have stated before (should not be trip guardable, and will mess with his hit confirms and combos).
MODOK - We need to remove his unblockable. I suggest that we make c.M no longer hit low, but stay out for 120 frames (currently 60). Let me know what you all think. I will clear the votes for MODOK since we all now agree that removing the unblockable is a priority.
Morrigan - Zissou is against giving her an aerial command grab for reasons he has not yet explained. If he does not provide a contentful objection, we will have to pass her on a 3/4 vote. I think her need for this is very clear, since she has the worst approach mix-ups in the game next to Tron Bonne.
Spencer - waiting on Frantic. Let's just leave the Wire Zip infinite to Capcom, I say.
Spider-man - missing everyone's votes but me!
Super-Skrull - apparently there are problems with making Brutal Pile Dunker safe, and I don't understand that. Skrull has NO safe approach options and no real neutral game. I mean that he literally has no tools at all that are safe for approaching and getting in. He is not used at all in competitive play outside of the anchor position because of Meteor Smash BS. This character needs help whether you hate him or not. I hate playing against Skrull, too, but he should have one reliable approach tool. The move is not even as good as Helm Breaker, and it will still be less safe than it, too. If you don't want Brutal Pile Dunker to be safe, we need to have a conversation about how to help Skrull. If his BS needs to be reduced, we can talk about that, too.
Taskmaster - I think my votes might be out of date - would everyone please re-vote on Taskmaster with his unblockable changed to an overhead? Thanks. I am a "Y".
Thor - are my votes out of date here, too? I think I remember everyone approving this version. Or is there still stuff to talk about?
Viewtiful Joe - Zissou thinks that charged Voomerang spam is too good, and I do not agree. In fact, last night Beef tried to do it to me a lot of times, and I always got through it even with Dr. Doom. I agree it is annoying, but Viewtiful Joe is annoying in general. I don't think it's too good, and I think that the only reason people get whomped by it is the wonky graphic remaining even after its hits are expended. We have fixed that, and I think it will be much more doable now.
Wolverine - what is the problem here?
Let's get the communication flowing here and wrap this up this weekend. I really, really would rather not pass any character on a 3/4 vote. We should be on a united front. I encourage everyone who is the sole "N" on a character to discuss their issues and come to a compromise of some kind. For example, I will gladly reduce the Magnetic Blast frame advantage on block even though it is change I am not fond of to remove the 3 frames of ground recovery, which I abhor. Notice that this is my only "N" on the entire page - I feel very strongly about this.
I identified the problem!
Sorry, I had to.
Comparing him to Dark Phoenix or Vergil is an incorrect way to think about it, imo. Phoenix and Vergil are (mostly)unstoppable forces with XF3 and their respective buff supers if they're allowed to play. Frank West level 4/5 becomes something more akin to Zero - a ridiculously good point character that can tear through teams with ease if he's allowed to(and if assisted with something like Jam Session). He is not an instant win button if you get him(nothing in this game is), but he is ridiculously strong regardless.
But I don't feel like he should really be nerfed anymore than we've already done(namely the chip damage). Why was the invincibility on his rush super asked to be reduced, anyways?
I've more or less come to terms with the changelist. It's still one I'm not in total agreement of it, but they're more pet-peeves things(still don't like the jump cancel on Rolling Uppercut because unless it's the first few frames, it'd look weird. And Neko Punch looks like a weak little hit that wouldn't be enough to cause crumple) so it's whatever.
I vote yes.
I'd make it 150 frames, but either way is fine.
I'm fine with the other changes, so my vote is yes(although the Bionic Lancer nerf will probably remove the multiple Bionic Lancer combos that are super hype to me, so it'd make me a little sad). And I've been busy writing a paper so I haven't really thought much about Spencer's infinite, heh.
I vote yes.
I vote yes on him now.
I presume Sword Master will retain its soft-knockdown against aerial opponents?
Think Dahbomb still wants 2 points of super armor on charged versions of Mighty Strike. I don't particularly care either way, but I do feel like there should be some incentive to use the charged versions if the normal version has armor now(since I don't know if non-charged versions destroy projectiles off hand, and am too lazy to look it up). If it's only the charged version that destroys projectiles, I'd vote yes. Otherwise, feel like there needs to be something to give reason for charging the move in neutral.
Only reason it works is because people get scared of it and try to do something, which results in them getting hit, which results in more time for Joe to charge another, which results in the person getting even more antsy and the process repeats until death. At least that's what it seems like to me, since I've never had much issue with the Voomerang spam. All you gotta do it block and pick your spots to get around it. I find normal Voomerang spam to be harder to deal with.
Am I a yes on this? Because I'd vote yes right now. I know I had issue with the Swiss Cheese change, but it's kinda whatever. That move is meant to deter mashers, yes, but I don't think it should be a useless move. But it's not something I feel too strongly about. Other than that, it's just Dahbomb wanting to reduce overall damage, which I don't agree with. Wolverine's damage is fine, especially with the reduction on Fatal Claw.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Why should there be an incentive to charge Mighty Strike in the neutral? Having to charge it now is why it's so ass. It's slow. 2 hits of armor isn't going to make it a better move. The stuff I originally posted is all it needed. He needs better pressure, not more damage or armor. Hell, I think even the startup where he's a little blanka ball should negate projectiles.
The way to make Thor better is to make Mighty Strike usable more often. Charged version causes soft knockdown and does more damage, so it's great for combos.
The way to make Thor better is to make Mighty Strike usable more often. Charged version causes soft knockdown and does more damage, so it's great for combos.
Professor Beef
Banned
Not to mention that V.Joe's superjump repeated charged Voomerangs have a semi-strict timing issue. You have to start charging the second he leaves the ground, or you get a normal Voomerang...or you just hit the ground.
Firebrand - I already thought I voted Y on Firebrand. Anyway Yes to him.
Frank West - Don't even think he needs any more nerfs than the ones previously listed like what Frantic said. But if everyone agrees with the invincibility nerf then I am fine with it especially so we can move this along.
Thor - The 2 hit armor on the charged version was in fact to make it so that the charged version has more utility. Right now it doesn't have much utility if the uncharged version has mostly the same benefits. Needs more discussion. I don't mind the blanka ball change although I need a refresher on some of the stuff God's Beard originally posted.
Skrull - Don't care about the Pile Bunker change. Without reworking the character you can't give him safe approaches or a better neutral game. Even this approach isn't that great.
MODOK - Fine with removing the unblockable especially if its getting more duration.
Dormammu - I still think any buffs on 0D0C is kinda crazy. There are some moves that are obviously not useful for much of anything aside from one particular use (in this case it's just a combo extender or a reset starter). 0D0C is by design supposed to be a shit move... it's like PW trying to present the evidence when he has nothing or when MODOK uses HPB without charges, it does pathetic damage. In any case I am not bothered with the Dorm changes mostly because this character was confirmed to be top 10 when he got better assists, the rest is gravy. I vote Yes just to move his changelist along but if there absolutely has to be a buff that needs to be removed it would probably be that one.
Magneto - Magneto getting through without any substantial Mag Blast nerf would mean this entire patch thing is a useless effort if we are OK with making an absolute best character in the game. In fact, I still think the Mag Blast nerf is not even that big of a nerf and he would still be the best character with it. Compared to the other top 5 characters, Mag is getting through without even as much as a paper cut. No matter how much you abhor the 3 frame recovery, I abhor having a definitive best character in a theory patch because it defeats the purpose of this. It's like when Capcom specifically designed Yun to be top tier in the game, we don't want that. Magneto being a top 10 character is acceptable but being the best is not because all that means is that everyone who wants to be competitive would play him because he covers all match ups and works well with the other best characters.
Taskmaster - Yes
Wolverine - Yes although I still think a 5% reduction in base damage should be considered. If not then at least reduce the damage of his H normals.
Jill - Yes with the extra annotation.
Spider Man - Yes although we really should be discussing the changes more. Stuff like if UWT is air OK would it lead to inescapable situations? All possibilities should be considered.
Joe - Yes. The charged Voomerang is an issue for characters who lack any sort of projectile and they should be played with a projectile assist anyway. Most zoning characters don't have a problem against Voomerangs in general or Joe as a whole. The only nerf that would be valid if you reduced the active time of charge Voomerangs by like 5-10 frames.
Captain America - I brought this up before but no one really entertained it. I think Cap in his current state sucks relative to other characters. He is a point only character given his toolset thanks to his relatively mediocre assists and no safe DHC. And even as a point he is highly out classed right now. Another big issue with him is that his DP sucks. Not the actual frame data on it but rather you get absolutely nothing out of it. Right now in this patch there is no character in the game who gets nothing off of their DP except Captain America (most at least get a super, some get full combos).
At the bare minimum he needs a better assist. I suggested that the assist version of Charging Star H cause more hit stun and cause more push back similar to Rapid Slash.
I remember that Super Skrull got his specials into hyper frame traps buffed by having his Inferno being safe on block so why is Cap still one of the few characters who still has all unsafe hypers? He can't even combo from his hypers without burning XF.
Basically everything that Cap has is high risk low reward right now. At least in the case of Skrull it's high risk high reward (get a command grab, get a full combo... whiff command grab, cancel into hyper which is safe). Cap has Invincible DP which he can't cancel no matter what even into a hyper and CS which is only cancelable into unsafe hypers. Or even compared to Taskmaster (more comparable to Cap) who has a Charging Star like move he can cancel into launcher for a full combo or into Sharp Sting to make it completely safe or have it option select as a throw or even cancel it into super which is safe and does good chip damage. In addition Task has better normals, better zoning game and now better mix ups.
So these issues need to be addressed to make Cap justifiable on a team.
Worse approach mix ups than Ghost Rider?
Worse approach mix ups than Chris?
Come on now. At least Morrigan can open up characters under a lock down assist...those two characters can't even do that much.
Frank West - Don't even think he needs any more nerfs than the ones previously listed like what Frantic said. But if everyone agrees with the invincibility nerf then I am fine with it especially so we can move this along.
Thor - The 2 hit armor on the charged version was in fact to make it so that the charged version has more utility. Right now it doesn't have much utility if the uncharged version has mostly the same benefits. Needs more discussion. I don't mind the blanka ball change although I need a refresher on some of the stuff God's Beard originally posted.
Skrull - Don't care about the Pile Bunker change. Without reworking the character you can't give him safe approaches or a better neutral game. Even this approach isn't that great.
MODOK - Fine with removing the unblockable especially if its getting more duration.
Dormammu - I still think any buffs on 0D0C is kinda crazy. There are some moves that are obviously not useful for much of anything aside from one particular use (in this case it's just a combo extender or a reset starter). 0D0C is by design supposed to be a shit move... it's like PW trying to present the evidence when he has nothing or when MODOK uses HPB without charges, it does pathetic damage. In any case I am not bothered with the Dorm changes mostly because this character was confirmed to be top 10 when he got better assists, the rest is gravy. I vote Yes just to move his changelist along but if there absolutely has to be a buff that needs to be removed it would probably be that one.
Magneto - Magneto getting through without any substantial Mag Blast nerf would mean this entire patch thing is a useless effort if we are OK with making an absolute best character in the game. In fact, I still think the Mag Blast nerf is not even that big of a nerf and he would still be the best character with it. Compared to the other top 5 characters, Mag is getting through without even as much as a paper cut. No matter how much you abhor the 3 frame recovery, I abhor having a definitive best character in a theory patch because it defeats the purpose of this. It's like when Capcom specifically designed Yun to be top tier in the game, we don't want that. Magneto being a top 10 character is acceptable but being the best is not because all that means is that everyone who wants to be competitive would play him because he covers all match ups and works well with the other best characters.
Taskmaster - Yes
Wolverine - Yes although I still think a 5% reduction in base damage should be considered. If not then at least reduce the damage of his H normals.
Jill - Yes with the extra annotation.
Spider Man - Yes although we really should be discussing the changes more. Stuff like if UWT is air OK would it lead to inescapable situations? All possibilities should be considered.
Joe - Yes. The charged Voomerang is an issue for characters who lack any sort of projectile and they should be played with a projectile assist anyway. Most zoning characters don't have a problem against Voomerangs in general or Joe as a whole. The only nerf that would be valid if you reduced the active time of charge Voomerangs by like 5-10 frames.
Captain America - I brought this up before but no one really entertained it. I think Cap in his current state sucks relative to other characters. He is a point only character given his toolset thanks to his relatively mediocre assists and no safe DHC. And even as a point he is highly out classed right now. Another big issue with him is that his DP sucks. Not the actual frame data on it but rather you get absolutely nothing out of it. Right now in this patch there is no character in the game who gets nothing off of their DP except Captain America (most at least get a super, some get full combos).
At the bare minimum he needs a better assist. I suggested that the assist version of Charging Star H cause more hit stun and cause more push back similar to Rapid Slash.
I remember that Super Skrull got his specials into hyper frame traps buffed by having his Inferno being safe on block so why is Cap still one of the few characters who still has all unsafe hypers? He can't even combo from his hypers without burning XF.
Basically everything that Cap has is high risk low reward right now. At least in the case of Skrull it's high risk high reward (get a command grab, get a full combo... whiff command grab, cancel into hyper which is safe). Cap has Invincible DP which he can't cancel no matter what even into a hyper and CS which is only cancelable into unsafe hypers. Or even compared to Taskmaster (more comparable to Cap) who has a Charging Star like move he can cancel into launcher for a full combo or into Sharp Sting to make it completely safe or have it option select as a throw or even cancel it into super which is safe and does good chip damage. In addition Task has better normals, better zoning game and now better mix ups.
So these issues need to be addressed to make Cap justifiable on a team.
Wow again with the ridiculous hyperbole on characters that you play.
Worse approach mix ups than Ghost Rider?
Worse approach mix ups than Chris?
Come on now. At least Morrigan can open up characters under a lock down assist...those two characters can't even do that much.
My laptop crashed in that last lobby so I can't play again until the batteries are recharged.
(This post is being made from the phone)
Karsticles
Member
Thanks for the swift replies, Dahbomb and Frantic. I will update the votes later this evening.
Re: Ghost Rider having worse mix-ups than Morrigan. No way! As a Ghost Rider player, I feel like his mix-ups are underrated. His j.S overhead is 17 frames and reaches about 3/4 screen, and his c.H low covers that same area. While he isn't a mix-up monster, he can mix people up from afar with reasonable success. He's not a great character by any means, but it's primarily due to his mobility, not his mix-ups.
Agreed on Chris, but Chris doesn't really go in. I was thinking about characters who go out of their way to open people up.
Re: Ghost Rider having worse mix-ups than Morrigan. No way! As a Ghost Rider player, I feel like his mix-ups are underrated. His j.S overhead is 17 frames and reaches about 3/4 screen, and his c.H low covers that same area. While he isn't a mix-up monster, he can mix people up from afar with reasonable success. He's not a great character by any means, but it's primarily due to his mobility, not his mix-ups.
Agreed on Chris, but Chris doesn't really go in. I was thinking about characters who go out of their way to open people up.
I vote yes to that version of Frank. I know my perspective will always be skewed, as everyone's is (to at least some extent) by the particular characters they play. I try to minimize as much as I can! Yes to Firebrand as well.
I still think that generally thinking a character is an appropriate overall strength is enough to not give them buffs, even though the buffs make sense in terms of making a fairly limited move actually useful. Dante has random moves with no real use, but we're not buffing every single one of those
I vote Yes on Jill assuming that the annotations specify that the forced neutral tech doesn't allow for unblockables.
I have been thinking about Magneto a fair amount. Magnetic blast is a bit too good. I don't know how anybody can argue otherwise. If you watch what top Mags players like FChamp can do with the combination of superb aerial mobility and constant mag blasts- many many characters have no real way to deal with it. If FChamp himself recommended giving the move slight landing recovery, why would that be a bad change?
I'm fine with this.
Morrigan has real high/low mix-ups if you have a lockdown assist. I mean, ChrisG routinely opens people up with her while rushing down under the cover of fireballs and missiles, and even with a slight missile nerf, this will still be possible in our theoretical patched version of the game.
I honestly feel like I don't understand Spider-man well enough to understand how these changes will affect him. Maybe if you type up the annotations ahead of time for his current proposed changes, it'd be easier to get people on board.
How would Skrull's BS be reduced? I've kind of come to terms with safe brutal pile dunker.
I vote Y.
I'm not sure if my vote is in, but if not, I vote Y.
If the voomerang sticking around is a visual glitch type thing like Chris's grenade fire that will be removed and everyone else is fine with this version of Joe, then Y.
I think we need to focus on Magneto for a bit and get this figured out.
Karsticles
Member
CHECK OUT THE PROGRESS!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE#gid=0
Wow! It's awesome having everyone responding so swiftly.
Re: Magneto:
I understand that Magnetic Blast is really good, I just don't like messing with a character's flow. Giving it landing recovery messes with the slick ol' man he is. If it needs more adjustments, I'm good to talk about that. Ditto for his other moves. There are just some things that I don't like to hurt on a character, and play flow is one of them.
Re: Morrigan opening people up:
Right, only with a pinning assist. A character should not 100% need an assist to have mix-up options.
Re: Thor:
Lets give the charged version 2 hits of armor as soon as you start charging and make it travel twice as far. Both versions destroy projectiles, FYI.
Re: MODOK:
Is everyone good with 150 frame duration on c.M?
Re: Skrull:
He has two points of BS: command grabs, and Meteor Smash. The command grabs are fair because he dies if he whiffs. Meteor Smash is something we could talk about, but I'm not sure how we would change it without ruining the character.
Re: Dante:
I would love to buff all of his specials, but we only have 10 changes. Trust me, it bothers me that only like...5 of his moves are worth using in the neutral out of 40.
Re: Dormammu:
If Zissou will vote Y, I will back removing the 0D0C buff.
Let's get these solidified, and then we can revisit characters that might still be underpowered. Chris, Captain America, Tron Bonne, etc. Tron Bonne might be a candidate for chipping normals, actually.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE#gid=0
Wow! It's awesome having everyone responding so swiftly.
Re: Magneto:
I understand that Magnetic Blast is really good, I just don't like messing with a character's flow. Giving it landing recovery messes with the slick ol' man he is. If it needs more adjustments, I'm good to talk about that. Ditto for his other moves. There are just some things that I don't like to hurt on a character, and play flow is one of them.
Re: Morrigan opening people up:
Right, only with a pinning assist. A character should not 100% need an assist to have mix-up options.
Re: Thor:
Lets give the charged version 2 hits of armor as soon as you start charging and make it travel twice as far. Both versions destroy projectiles, FYI.
Re: MODOK:
Is everyone good with 150 frame duration on c.M?
Re: Skrull:
He has two points of BS: command grabs, and Meteor Smash. The command grabs are fair because he dies if he whiffs. Meteor Smash is something we could talk about, but I'm not sure how we would change it without ruining the character.
Re: Dante:
I would love to buff all of his specials, but we only have 10 changes. Trust me, it bothers me that only like...5 of his moves are worth using in the neutral out of 40.
Re: Dormammu:
If Zissou will vote Y, I will back removing the 0D0C buff.
Let's get these solidified, and then we can revisit characters that might still be underpowered. Chris, Captain America, Tron Bonne, etc. Tron Bonne might be a candidate for chipping normals, actually.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
What if he has no meter?
I think I'm about to make a new team. I want to see if Ammy and Dormammu can play well together. Need a third character though.
I think I'm about to make a new team. I want to see if Ammy and Dormammu can play well together. Need a third character though.
"God's Beard!"
Member
You guys really aren't buffing Thor in a way that makes sense for his playstyle. Distance is definitely better than the extra armor, though. Distance and frame-1 projectile nullification would be the best. The extra distance might make some combos weird.
If you really wanted to beast out with Thor, make the strikes negate pushblock like Vortex.
If you really wanted to beast out with Thor, make the strikes negate pushblock like Vortex.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Yeah, I know. :3
Karsticles
Member
I think a lot of our Thor changes are what he needs. I played him for about 150 matches this weekend to get a better feel for what he lacks. The only thing he doesn't have and could really use, but that we didn't add, is a general speed buff.
Meteor Smash should cancel into Meteor Smash. ;-D
We could nerf the hitbox on Meteor Smash, or make it more obvious where it's going to land. It's really the moves ambiguity that makes it such a bitch. Maybe Meteor Smash should create a considerably sized shadow where he will land, or something?
We'll talk about sub-par characters after we finalize these ones. Your comments are not ignored, I'm just not there right now in my mindset. I want to "finalize" everyone, then we can do an in-depth consideration of the characters to make sure they're worth picking.
Meteor Smash should cancel into Meteor Smash. ;-D
We could nerf the hitbox on Meteor Smash, or make it more obvious where it's going to land. It's really the moves ambiguity that makes it such a bitch. Maybe Meteor Smash should create a considerably sized shadow where he will land, or something?
Dormammu doesn't get much from Ammy, unfortunately. Cold Star is mediocre for him. It can be good as a secondary assist for combo extension, but that's about it.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
.
Speeding up his jab is a speed buff.
He got plenty of buffs and IMO is still an underrated character. No one has really tapped his mobility and hit confirms yet. Stuff like Mighty Spark being an actual block string, faster jab, better Mighty Strikes, better Shockwave are all great buffs for him. Plus that new assist he got is really good too.
I sayd add frame 1 projectile invulnerability on charged Mighty Strike and call it a day (as in during the charge).
He got plenty of buffs and IMO is still an underrated character. No one has really tapped his mobility and hit confirms yet. Stuff like Mighty Spark being an actual block string, faster jab, better Mighty Strikes, better Shockwave are all great buffs for him. Plus that new assist he got is really good too.
I sayd add frame 1 projectile invulnerability on charged Mighty Strike and call it a day (as in during the charge).
Karsticles
Member
I mean movement speed. He just has trouble getting around. I've thought about suggesting an increase in his air dash distance.
We should also increase his c.L hitstun to ensure it always chains into c.H.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Yeah I felt like Dorm wouldn't get much from her, and that's why I'm trying to figure out who the third character should be. I just like Slow for Dorm. It's fun.
Thor can move around but people haven't gotten good with it yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQmj2cRS5cE&sns=em
For a character who has 1.3 million his mobility is damn good.
Karsticles
Member
His mobility is fine, I'm talking about his speed. I know how he moves; he basically moves like Dormammu does, which is why I can pick up and play him while doing relatively well. That is still like...half the speed of Magneto or Storm.
Alright, so let's try to wrap up character discussion:
Dormammu:
Zissou, what can I do to get you to "Y" him? I would really like to see some contentful suggestions from you on this.
Morrigan:
I really think that the aerial command grab is necessary for her Zissou. We're not even letting her convert off of it anymore. It just gives her an option against chicken blockers. No character should require a pinning assist for mix-ups. Anyone here is welcome to apply that logic to other characters and I will follow it through appropriately.
Magneto:
Is there anything else we can do to Magnetic Blast to make me a "Y"? Zissou thinks Magnetic Blast is still too good, and we need to hear from him more on this.
Rocket Raccoon:
Missing Frantic's vote, unless I missed it.
Super-Skrull:
I suggest this version; please give me feedback on it:
Super-Skrull:
*Says “He loves you!” again during Inferno; Inferno now -3 on block; Super-Skrull no longer falls prone after aerial use; damage reduced slightly.
*Rolling Hook’s input is now f, f + H (from f, f, f +H).
+Meteor Smash hitbox reduced slightly; screen now adjusts to make the move’s placement more clear; a large shadow appears where Skrull land; assist version causes a soft knockdown, does not OTG, and does not hit overhead
+Orbital Grudge now -1 on block.
+Skrull Torch now has invincibility starting on frame 1.
+Stone Smite gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 14-53; startup reduced to 47.
+Stone Dunk gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 16-42.
+Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.
+Flame Kick gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 12-52.
+df.H hitstun increased (blockstun unchanged).
Assists: Tenderizer L, Orbital Grudge M x Fatal Buster, Meteor Smash (Tracking)
Taskmaster:
Missing Frantic's vote. He asked whether Sword Master's hits will cause a soft knockdown on aerial opponents. I don't care either way. Taskmaster has so much high hitstun moves as it is. If it's a concern for you, we'll just make it a normal hit.
Thor:
This is my proposed Thor:
Thor:
+Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more; now safe for blockstrings against crouching characters.
+Mighty Smash M assist causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce; armored from frames 36-63; now ground bounces against Amaterasu.
+Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
+Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames; fly cancel is 1 frame.
+s.H has super armor from frames 6-20.
+s.L startup reduced to 6 frames; c.L hitstun increased slightly to ensure it can always link into c.H.
+Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25 (charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging; charged version travels significantly farther and has 2 hits of super armor starting on frame 15.
+Mighty Thunder now causes pushback equivalent to Magnetic Shockwave; startup decreased to 10+4.
+Air throws now cause enough knockdown to ensure Mighty Thunder can always connect afterward.
+Mighty Punish range increased slightly.
Assists: Mighty Spark M, Mighty Smash M, Mighty Strike L
Wolverine:
We need Dahbomb to approve him. I don't think anyone else is supporting a damage reduction on him. He has gotten a lot of indirect nerfs as it is.
PLEASE VOTE ON THE THOR AND SKRULL VERSIONS I HAVE LISTED HERE
Once everyone is a "Y", we will all individually give characters a second look for issues they have. I plan on suggesting a few things for Chris and Tron Bonne, and I know Dahbomb wants to talk about Captain America more. I just all of the characters to be roughly settled before we touch on any super fine tuning.
That's a big ass nerf on Meteor Smash. He gets most of his wins with that move.
You should probably label the Meteor Smash change as "+/-" as it contains both buffs and nerfs.
You also can't change Rolling Hook input because if you are dashing with f, f you will get that move out. Triple forward provents that from happening off of a regular dash. And yes some people do use f, f for dash.
Also charged version of Mighty Strike gains armor later than regular Mighty Strike? That makes no sense, regular Mighty Strike has armor on 12th frame where as charged has armor on 15 frame.
You should probably label the Meteor Smash change as "+/-" as it contains both buffs and nerfs.
You also can't change Rolling Hook input because if you are dashing with f, f you will get that move out. Triple forward provents that from happening off of a regular dash. And yes some people do use f, f for dash.
Also charged version of Mighty Strike gains armor later than regular Mighty Strike? That makes no sense, regular Mighty Strike has armor on 12th frame where as charged has armor on 15 frame.
Karsticles
Member
I agree, but our goal should be to make a Skrull that is worth using outside of XF3, and Meteor Smash is the big "cheap" thing holding us back from making him solid. Meteor Smash is a really dumb move, too. The game should not be lost to Skrull because you can't even tell what's going on.
We could make it projectile invincible to give it more utility as a tradeoff for the nerfs, though. Then it's full-on anti-keepaway. It's a nice counter to Hidden Missiles, too. ;-)
And fuck them. They need to learn how to dash properly in a Marvel game. Skrull would have a very nice addition to his neutral game if this move could be pulled off reliably outside of combos.
Or we could change the input to qcf.S.
The move can be used reliably, learn to triple input.
Hey I already suggested putting raw Fatal Buster on QCB+S! Put Rolling Hook on QCF+S.
Projectile invincible Meteor Smash? No thanks. Honestly a hit box reduction is enough no need to have the move cast a shadow on the ground, it would be too much of a dead give away. Otherwise you would have to put markers on teleports and other tracking moves too.
Hey I already suggested putting raw Fatal Buster on QCB+S! Put Rolling Hook on QCF+S.
Projectile invincible Meteor Smash? No thanks. Honestly a hit box reduction is enough no need to have the move cast a shadow on the ground, it would be too much of a dead give away. Otherwise you would have to put markers on teleports and other tracking moves too.
Karsticles
Member
Learn to read! I said outside of combos, and it's not because it's hard to tap forward three times, it's because it's time consuming to do so in the neutral. Tapping forward three times is a very cumbersome input for a move in the neutral.
K.
I would love to have markers on teleports.
New Skrull:
Super-Skrull:
*Says “He loves you!” again during Inferno; Inferno now -3 on block; Super-Skrull no longer falls prone after aerial use; damage reduced slightly.
+Rolling Hook’s input is now qcf.S.
+Meteor Smash hitbox reduced slightly; screen now adjusts to make the move’s placement more clear; assist version causes a soft knockdown, does not OTG, and does not hit overhead
+Orbital Grudge now -1 on block.
+Skrull Torch now has invincibility starting on frame 1.
+Stone Smite gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 14-53; startup reduced to 47.
+Stone Dunk gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 16-42.
+Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.
+Flame Kick gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 12-52.
+df.H hitstun increased (blockstun unchanged).
Assists: Tenderizer L, Orbital Grudge M x Fatal Buster, Meteor Smash (Tracking)
Karsticles
Member
Actually, isn't it all a "-"? I don't consider listing the assist traits to be a "+".
Raw Fatal Buster would be waaay too good. I once played a good Skrull who could perfectly time Orbital Grudge to catch Dormammu's j.H/S every time time thanks to the armor. Now if I imagine him having Fatal Buster, there's no way aerial characters would ever touch Skrull! As much fun as I would have with it as a Skrull fan, I can't back that!
Also, I know you specifically typed out what you want the Storm Float change to read, but I lost track of it. Would you type it out again so I can insert it and we can get you a "Y" on her?
I put Zissou as a "Y" for Spider-man since he said he would go with the majority vote.
Professor Beef
Banned
Rolling Hook doesn't need an input change.