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[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

I think if your looking into fight sticks Onionfrog and are eventually planning on getting PS4 or XBO you might as well wait because they will be incompatible with next gen. I'd wait for a next gen stick that would most likely be backwards compatible to PS3. That way you don't have to make another investment later.

 

[onionfrog]

Onionfrog, three other ideas:

3) Hawkeye is your weakest character. By far. I would create a point team with him that forces you to learn his ins and outs, because right now he's pretty free.

Eh, it's mostly that he's free on incoming. Especially with you filling the screen with shit and tridashing around with doom.

I do pretty well with him against other people here. He's definitely not dead weight.

The stock buttons and stick feel horrible. Once you get new buttons and a gate you'll only be saving a few dollars while voiding your warranty.

Thanks Vice. Looks like I'd probably be better off with the SC stick.

I think if your looking into fight sticks Onionfrog and are eventually planning on getting PS4 or XBO you might as well wait because they will be incompatible with next gen. I'd wait for a next gen stick that would most likely be backwards compatible to PS3. That way you don't have to make another investment later.

Good point. I may as well wait and see if current gen sticks work on next gen consoles.
I think the latest news was that it'd be up to each developer to allow it on ps4. I'm not sure if anything has been said about xbox one capability.

Also, after thinking about the need to dual mod the stick as well, it's definitely too expensive for me to do anytime soon.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Aren't you in the EU or something? That might not go well, but we could try.

Naw, I'm from Eastern Coast.

 

[Karsticles]

Naw, I'm from Eastern Coast.

Well then, give it a try.

 

[kevo_huevo]

Anyone want to play a bit?

 

[Zissou]

Alright since the final review has started here are some stuff that I would like to be addressed:

*Phoenix having a 19 frame overhead. I disagree that she "needs" a fast overhead like that. Any buff she gets to her mix up ability means it is easier for her to get to 5 bars. Without meter stealing TAC and with someone like Vergil nerfed Phoenix is in a very good place so every buff has to be considered twice or we would end up with Vanilla Phoenix again where everyone starts putting her at the back. The transformation hyper is the big buff and I am fine with that but the fast overhead has to go.. it's too over the top.

I agree- I think the overhead is fine the way it is now.

*Chris probably needs a good way to mix up but making the overhead forward Heavy is not the right solution. The move has other functionality that would be ruined if it got a 20+ frame start up. A good solution to this would be that Chris gains a "new" move at back Heavy but the this new move is merely the slower version of Stun rod that hits overhead. Or you can charge the stun rod for some frames until it gains overhead property. I like the charge idea because it's a stun rod, you can have the stun rod flash some lightning when it reaches the threshold where it can hit high. As far as mobility goes I think more importantly Chris needs a better way to protect underneath him or shoot straight forward. Shooting straight forward is not really possible because it would be an animation change but we can give him more priority on his j.S. Or give him a double jump but I don't like that.

I am on the leave fwd.H alone train.

*Cap sucks in this patch. The #1 reason is that his DP still leads to nothing unlike the rest of the cast who either get a combo or at least a hyper. IMO the only way to improve the DP is that it can be canceled on hit into one of his Shield Slash so he can get a combo. I don't want to give him a tool that allows him to make his DP safe, enough characters have that and it's derpy as hell but being able to cancel it into a Shield Slash on hit would lead into bigger damage. It would be a nice high risk high reward move rather than what it is now which is a low reward high risk move.

I would be okay with this. The DP is definitely ass right now.

Another way to improve Cap is to improve his Charging Star assist. Give it more knockback and hit stun so its like a second Rapid Slash.

This would be fine with me.

*I don't know how we can further improve Tron, She Hulk, Nemesis, Ghost Rider without going over the change limit. Ghost Rider's problem is still mix up and mobility... he is still weak to chicken block and he still can't really touch fliers (if someone does super jump air dash up and use projectiles Ghost Rider can't touch that). A good way to fix that about Ghost Rider would be to make his diagonal wall bounce chain air OK. That would give him that extra angle to touch fliers on top of the straight forward one. I don't want to give Ghost Rider a good mix up tool because he has chip on block now, even if he doesn't open you up he is still gaining advantage. Once he has 3 bars he has a legitimate mix up tool that opens you up and Ghost Rider can get to that much meter without even opening you up. Tron's up close normals generally suck and she can be easily anti aired especially by Wolverine. Don't know how to fix that although she does have an improved Gustaff Flame now.

Making GR's wall bounce chain thing air-OK would be cool with me.

Overall I think the patch is good now for the most part, these are just the stuff that was bugging me a bit. I think it's important to get some outside perspective now because I feel as if the committee members have been tapped out in terms of insight and information. We did the best we could but we are just 4. I think it's time we start disseminating the patch changes on characters individually and see what the character specialists have to say about it.

I really think you are underrating our new Ghost Rider. He's not nearly as bad as people think. However, one thing we could do is make his jumps heavier. He's a bit floaty, and if we made him fall faster then j.S could maybe link into s.H on hit by itself. This is probably his biggest problem. j.S is fantastic, and it hits people a lot, but he doesn't convert off of it without an assist.

Would that mess up his combos?

Tron Bonne should get her minimum air dash height completely removed. Let her do j.H and j.L overheads very low to the ground. Right now it's too easy to anti-air her. Then I think she would be fine.

She can't have no minimum air dash height- that's crazy.

She-Hulk was very strong in Vanilla, and I think she's going to be solid here. She has amazing mix-ups and resets, and if we make her too good at getting in then she will become too strong. We buffed her lamp post move significantly, so she will be better than ever now.

She-Hulk was decent in vanilla, but not until the very end of vanilla (maybe) were people playing the game remotely well. If she had been left completely alone in the transition to ultimate, I think she wouldn't be that great now and almost no one would use her. What are these mix-ups you're talking about? I agree that her resets are pretty good.

Aerial gamma charge on Hulk, and on Haggar...?

Not sure if you're trolling with this one, but aerial gamma charge might be ok.

Here are some suggestions for Chris:
-reduce his shotgun startup
-f.H overhead; I think this needs to happen
-f.H staggers
-double jump
-aerial gunshots now cause Chris to fall faster (recoil, makes his aerial game safer)
-j.S hitbox increased

Did any Chris players weigh in on this? I'm not sure about giving him a double jump- seems weird.

Captain America:
-shield slash (ground) is now dash-cancelable on hit or block
-stars and stripes can now cancel into shield slash on block or hit (combos)
-shield slash M removed as an assist; replaced with stars and stripes
-shield slash L (assist) hits on the way back even when Captain America gets hit
-Charging Star H now causes Rapid Slash-like pushback on block

I'm ok with this.

Firebrand:
-Chaos Tide now persists on tagout; the helper remains on screen hovering over the opponent when Firebrand is tagged out; the helper will swipe whenever Firebrand is called as an assist

Is this really necessary? Firebrand has gotten a lot of improvements and there is no precedent for things like helpers persisting on tag out.

Haggar:
-c.H (assist) is fully invincible as a crossover counter until its recovery frames begin (100% safe and invincible crossover counter)
-c.H now links into Rapid Fire Fist (solo conversions off of throws)
-Giant Haggar Press is now projectile invincible

I'm ok with this stuff for the most part. cr.H linking in rapid fire fist might look goofy though.

Jill:
-new assist: machine gun volley; she jumps out onto the screen and fires one small spray of 1 durability bullets that cover the screen. It would basically be a photon shot, but the startup would be larger since she has to jump into the air first, and then she would land near the opponent like with her hyper. It wouldn't require a new animation, and now she would have an interesting assist option.

This is interesting but seems like it might be pushing our own rules when it comes to what changes are allowed in our theoretical patch.

Nemesis suggestions (not all of these, just ideas):
-passive super armor on ground dashes
-deadly reach moves now absorb enemy health
-deadly reach moves now negate projectiles
-c.H travel time increased significantly
-backwards ground dash is now startup invincible (back dash into command grab like BlazBlue's Tager)
-aerial normals all have their startup reduced by 2 frames
-tracking rocket assist (I don't know why we didn't talk about this before; he has the animation for a tracking rocket shot from his hyper)

No on armored ground dashes. Iffy on absorbing health, and ground dash invincibility has no precedent in this game. The other stuff is fine.

Phoenix Wright suggestions (all toward making non-turnabout Wright more fearsome):
-reduce discard (investigation) startup; increase projectile durability to 8
-reduce investigate startup
-improve his various present evidence (trial and turnabout) pieces so they are all useful

This stuff is fine. I think it'd be cool if once in turnabout mode, if tagged out, PW would have one hit of super armor when called as an assist. Invincibility on press the witness was too much, but super armor would be cool.

Shuma-Gorath:
-Hyper Mystic Smash assist - he throws one clone that ignores projectiles (like Frank's Hammer Throw H)

Sounds weird/animation change-ish. Shuma already has strong support value.

Spider-man:
-Web Ball H (assist) now auto-aims at opponents; captured aerial enemies fall to the ground (now he has a good assist)
-Web Swing (assist) now causes a soft knockdown

Web hall H tracking seems kind of crazy.

Thor:
-air dash range increased (better command throw ability)

Ok.

Tron Bonne:
-bandit boulder is now cancelable somehow (give her better approach options)
-minimum air dash height removed

No on the minimum air dash height removal (as I stated earlier). What would you want bandit boulder cancelable into?

Hulk:
-aerial gamma charge, or maybe he creates a hitbox when he lands from a big "thud"!

I'd be nice for him to have some aerial option.

She-Hulk:
-lamppost attack negates projectiles (helps her get in and buffs an assist option)

Yes to this.

Strider:
-formation A1 can no longer be negated by normal attacks

OK.

X-23:
-rage trigger assist; only the first series of slashes
-an assist where X-23 runs forward, ignoring projectiles, and hits an enemy into a crumple state (uses Weapon X Prime animation)

These assists seem against the rules we've agreed on (a grey area, but seems sketchy).

 

[Ogrekiller]

Pandora Xfactor:

Press assist in addition to the normal 4 button activation of xfactor to instantly sacrifice that assist character in order to access the next tier of xfactor than you would ordinarily receive. Does not work if all assists are dead.

And raise max meter to 6. I want my double lvl 3 combos, no matter how impractical they may be.

 

[FSLink]

Pandora Xfactor:

Press assist in addition to the normal 4 button activation of xfactor to instantly sacrifice that assist character in order to access the next tier of xfactor that you would ordinarily receive. Does not work if all assists are dead.

Not on board unless we officially add Cross Assault glitch as a mechanic.

(I'm joking obviously)

 

[Zissou]

What do you guys think of the point mags team I'm considering playing: Magneto/Dante/Doom. I assume I'll put Dante on jam session, though weasel shot could be fun too. Doom assist I would change depending on the match-up. Seems like there are a lot of fun gimmicks to exploit- shockwave into DT dhc gives lets you combo afterwards if the shockwave hits and you can potentially kill with a TAC back to Magneto. In the corner, you can hard tag to Doom and do the Doom/Dante THC combo ender to do a ton of damage whenever you have the chance (and after a throw anywhere, if I can figure this out). My Magneto is still asssss though

 

[Dahbomb]

Boulder Throw would be cancelable into Bonne Strike or her Serbot launchers. Neither would be game breaking aside from potential unseen combos/loops. The nerfs on Bonne Strike ensures that a combo based around that move will not be an infinite.

 

[FSLink]

Boulder Throw would be cancelable into Bonne Strike

It's already cancellable to this, unless you mean changing its properties so it can be done during longer combos or on whiff.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's already cancellable to this, unless you mean changing its properties so it can be done during longer combos or on whiff.

The bold. Also should be cancelable into the Servbot Launchers so she could do like throw a boulder then cancel into the 3 Serbot launchers for a legit zoning option.

Anyway we should wrap this patch up now. It has been over 3 months since we started discussion on it.

I will make things easier and just add my suggestions into the weaker characters based on what was sort of agreed upon.

Bolded are the new changes:

Captain America:

+c.L is now +1 on block.
+j.d+H is now better for crossing up; j.u+H vertical hitbox increased. (just fused these together as they are basically two types of similar moves)
+Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster; allows for post-hyper combo follow-up through Shield Slash L OTG.
+Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly; grounded version causes more pushback on block on the first hit, and pulls the opponent in more on the second.
+Shield Slash L vertical hitbox reduced; now passes under some beams and projectiles.
+It is now easier for Captain America to combo off of his throws.
+Hyper Charging Star is now fully projectile invincible.
+Cartwheel now has invincibility from frames 1-18.
+Stars and Stripes cancelable on hit into Shield Slash; Stars and Stripes hit stun and push back adjusted to allow combos on hit
+Charging Star H as an assist has significantly more push back on block; Assists can now be called during the start up and some of the active frames of all Charging Stars to allow for more assist synergy

Assists: Shield Slash M, Charging Star H, Shield Slash L

Chris:
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
+Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased; slight upper body invincibility on assist version.
+s.S now cancels Chris’ Grenade Launcher and Satellite Laser hypers.
+Grenade Toss L +1 on block.
+Combination Punch follow-up inputs made more lenient.
+Gun Fire L grounded hitbox extended downwards; no longer whiffs up close, reduced start up slightly
+Charging the Stun Rod (f+H) for a few frames until it reaches 24 frame start up turns the move into an overhead and gives it stagger property
-Flamethrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.

Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower

Ghost Rider:
+Spirit of Vengeance now has hyper armor on frame 0; H follow-up recovers faster, allowing for a full combo.
+Chain-based normals now deal 15% chip damage.
+Heartless Spire vertical hitbox increased; jump-cancelable; assist version startup is 34 frames, upper body invincible.
+Judgment Strike now reaches full-screen.
+Chain of Rebuttal and Chain of Punishment vertical hitbox extended downward; Chain of Rebuttal and Chain of Punishment air OK.
+Forward dash distance increased by 50%; total active frames unchanged.
+Hellfire (all versions) are now +4 on block; startup reduced to 10 frames for all versions; recovery reduced to 14 for all versions.
+Chain of Punishment and Hell’s Embrace hitboxes widened.
+c.M startup reduced to 9 frames; hitbox increased slightly and travels slightly farther.
+Hellfire Maelstrom recovery reduced to 25 frames; -7 on block; causes heavy pushback on block.

Assists: Judgment Strike, Chain of Rebuttal, Heartless Spire

Haggar:
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
+f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage.
+Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
+c.H can now be canceled into a ground recovery roll on the first frame of recovery; c.H now links into Rapid Fire Fist to allow solo conversions off of throws
+Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself, now projectile invincible
+Final Haggar Buster now crumples.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H


Hulk:
+Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
+f.M gains hyper armor from frames 16-51 when charged.
+Gamma Tornado (all versions) hitbox significantly increased; throws the opponent less far away, allowing for a Gamma Wave L + assist extension as with air throws.
+Gamma Quake startup changed to 6+9; recovery changed to 0; Hulk is now free to move after pounding the ground.
+Gamma Charge air OK (cannot perform a second Gamma Charge if started from the air)
-Minimum damage scaling on normal and special attacks reduced to 20%.

Assists: Gamma Wave H, Gamma Charge H (AA), Gamma Charge H

Nemesis:
+Fatal Mutation now has full invincibility; places opponent in a crumple state; startup time reduced to 10 frames; L+M input places the grab hitbox in front of him, M+H in the air in front of him, and L+H straight above his head.
+Biohazard Rush now has hyper armor from frame 1 until recovery; startup reduced to 8+1; vertical hitbox increased; recovers sooner to allow for post-hyper combos.
+Bioweapon Assault now better at predicting where rockets should fire; recovers sooner, allowing for post-hyper combos.
+c.H super armor changed to frames 8-27; travel time increased
+s.H super armor changed to frames 7-24.
+Minimum damage scaling for hypers increased to 60%.
+qcb.S now fires a downward-angled rocket that hits the ground at half a screen away.
+Clothesline Rocket L: 26 frame start up, +2 on block(no rocket, soft knockdown); previous L and M versions moved to M and H, respectively.
+c.L now chains to s.L.
+Launcher Slam M now has armor from frames 8-29; carries over to the assist version.

Assists: Launcher Slam M, Clothesline Rocket M, qcb.S (tracking)


She-Hulk:
+Lights Out startup reduced to 25 frames; horizontal hitbox increased; negates projectiles
+c.L chains into itself on block/hit.
+Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce; no longer swaps sides between inputs.
+Weight and speed returned to Vanilla status.
+Emergency Landing (Catapult Cancel) no longer makes She-Hulk prone until landing.
+Canceling Runner’s Start has 0 frames of recovery; assists may now be called during Runner’s Start.
+c.H returned to Vanilla status.
+j.H hitbox improved slightly.
+Shooting Star now has 1 hit of armor; assist causes significant knockback on block.
+Torpedo causes less knockback on hit; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames startup.
+Somersault Kick has 1 hit of super armor beginning on frame 5.

Assists: Lights Out, Shooting Star, Torpedo


Spider-man:
*Web Glide can no longer be block canceled; Spider-man can use Web Glide three times now before touching the ground; grounded Web Glide does not count against this maximum; Web Glide may be canceled into itself.
+Web Ball H (assist) is unaffected by hitstun deterioration.
+Spider Bite (assist) hits overhead and causes a ground bounce.
+Ultimate Web Throw hitbox changed to better match the animation; startup reduced to 15+3; now air OK; aerial version has a smaller hitbox than the grounded version.
+Untechable time after Maximum Spider increased slightly; now possible to OTG follow-up.
+Standing and crouching normals now pull opponents in more.
-Hitstun decay now continues to accumulate during Web Throw’s catch animation.

Assists: Web Ball H, Web Throw M (works like Spencer's Wire Grapple assist), Spider Sting H x Spider Bite


Strider:
-Vajra (assist) untechable knockdown time decreased slightly.
+Legion travel time improved; each animal of Legion has 1 high durability point; piercing.
+Hyper Damage scaling changed from 30% to 50%.
+Formation B(Shot) no longer has a time limit; vertical hitbox extended downward to hit smaller knocked down characters.
+Formation A1 can no longer be negated by normal attacks
+df.H now cancelable into Formation B (Shot).
+Minimum damage scaling on normals changed to 5%.
+Minimum damage scaling on specials changed to 10%.

Assists: Vajra, Formation A1, Gram H

Tron Bonne:
+j.H returned to Vanilla status.
+Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
+Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
+Servbot Launcher recovery reduced to 20; assist version fires all 3 Servbots one after another.
+Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames; if the Beacon Bomb hits an assist, a servbot is now launched and attached to the assist character.
+Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
+Bandit Boulder now travels full screen; hitstun increased to allow better solo combos off of throws; cancelable on whiff at any frame into any special
+Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable;
+Shakedown Mixer now leads to full combos.
+Minimum air dash height requirement reduced

Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher

 

[Karsticles]

No on calling assists during Charging Star. That move is derp as it is.

I think I approve the rest. I will post a slightly revised list soon.

I think it is good that we did this for three months. A lot of thought went into it.

 

[Dahbomb]

The problem with Cap is that he can only use like 2 assists with his Charging Star (one of them is Unibeam). This change allows him to use more assists with the move increasing his team synergy. It's only during start up frames, not during recovery so if he calls it improperly it would be unsafe.

Also I didn't know where to add the Thor air dash range increase because he has 10 slots used up.

 

[onionfrog]

No on calling assists during Charging Star. That move is derp as it is.

Agreed. It would probably end up being really stupid.

I don't like the 'Stars and Stripes Cancellable into shield slash on hit'
If you want to get full combos off DP you should have to use specific assists and build your team around it IMO.

Spider-Man
Assists: Web Ball H, Web Throw M (works like Spencer's Wire Grapple assist), Spider Sting H x Spider Bite

Now this is really fucking smart. I like it!
It gives players more possible combinations for teams that can combo into a crumple for FOTF loops with Dr. Strange. (Among other things)

EDIT: Actually the rest of those changes all seem good Dahbomb.
--
I'm on the fence about giving Hulk air OK gamma charge though.

 

[Dahbomb]

He only gets one Gamma Charge in the air. I thought that was fine although being able to use two of them in the air would've been absurd because he could change directions (like he could go double forward or forward, then down like a tri dash). Even right now he can do a Gamma Charge in the air if he uses the up Gamma Charge first into a forward Gamma Charge or a down Gamma Charge.

If you want to get full combos off DP you should have to use specific assists and build your team around it IMO.

The problem is that every character in the game in this patch gets something out of their DP or reversal without using assists (Morrigan, Ryu, X23, Jill, Akuma, Spider Man, Joe, Chun Li etc). Most get at least a super. Cap has no air super so he needs to get a combo off of it. I didn't make it cancelable on whiff or block because then he would have a safe DP that leads into combo which even though is not out of the ordinary in this game it would still be a bit derp.

The Charging Star change while controversial at least makes sense. Cap doesn't go along with many assists in the game because the main component you look for in an assist with him is if he gets a combo off of Charging Star with the assist and the assist makes it safe. There are very few assists that allow him to do this because some assists might leave him vulnerable to an air throw while others he wouldn't get something off of it. Compared to something like Taskmaster's Shield Skill which he can cancel at will into either a safe special, a launcher for a full combo, call assists during any frame of the move, OS with a throw and even cancel it into a safe hyper .... this doesn't even seem remotely imbalanced.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Cap is already derp enough.

 

[Karsticles]

Here are my submissions for the final versions of these characters. Please vote on them, committee members:

Hulk: unchanged. I have thought aerial Gamma Charge over, and it's too problematic for some matchups, and the whole reason we explored it was to give him aerial mobility. If we're not giving Chris and Hawkeye any, then there's no reason to give any to Hulk, either. Parity, and all that. If we want to explore these options for other characters with no aerial movement, then we will talk more about aerial Gamma Charge.

She-Hulk:
+Lights Out startup reduced to 25 frames; horizontal hitbox increased; negates projectiles.
+c.L chains into itself on block/hit.
+Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce; no longer swaps sides between inputs.
+Weight and speed returned to Vanilla status.
+Emergency Landing (Catapult Cancel) no longer makes She-Hulk prone until landing.
+Canceling Runner’s Start has 0 frames of recovery; assists may now be called during Runner’s Start.
+c.H returned to Vanilla status.
+j.H hitbox improved slightly.
+Shooting Star now has 1 hit of armor; assist causes significant knockback on block.
+Torpedo causes less knockback on hit; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames startup.
+Somersault Kick has 1 hit of super armor beginning on frame 5.

Assists: Lights Out, Shooting Star, Torpedo

Tron Bonne:
+j.H returned to Vanilla status.
+Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
+Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
+Servbot Launcher recovery reduced to 20; assist version fires all 3 Servbots one after another.
+Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames; if the Beacon Bomb hits an assist, a servbot is now launched and attached to the assist character.
+Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
+Bandit Boulder now travels full screen; hitstun increased to allow better solo combos off of throws; dash and special cancelable.
+Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
+Shakedown Mixer now leads to full combos.
+Minimum air dash height reduced considerably.

Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher

Chris:
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
+Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased; slight upper body invincibility on assist version.
+s.S now cancels Chris’ Grenade Launcher and Satellite Laser hypers.
+Grenade Toss L +1 on block.
+Combination Punch follow-up inputs made more lenient.
+Gun Fire L grounded hitbox extended downwards; no longer whiffs up close.
+Gun Fire M startup reduced to 15.
+f.H can now be charged to 21 frames; it becomes an overhead in this state and staggers.
+j.S hitbox increased slightly.
-Flamethrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.

Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower

Captain America:
+c.L is now +1 on block.
+j.d+H is now better for crossing up; +j.u+H vertical hitbox increased.
+Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster; allows for post-hyper combo follow-up through Shield Slash L OTG.
+Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly; grounded version causes more pushback on block on the first hit, and pulls the opponent in more on the second.
+Shield Slash L vertical hitbox reduced; now passes under some beams and projectiles.
+It is now easier for Captain America to combo off of his throws.
+Hyper Charging Star is now fully projectile invincible.
+Cartwheel now has invincibility from frames 1-18.
+Stars and Stripes can now be canceled into Shield Slash on hit; float point changed to allow for full combos on hit.
+Charging Star (assist) now causes Rapid Slash-like pushback on block.

Assists: Stars and Stripes, Charging Star H, Shield Slash L

Felicia:
+Health increased to 900,000.
+Delta Kick H assist pushes opponents back significantly on block; point Delta Kick now hits multiple characters.
+Cat & Mouse is now special cancelable, distance increased slightly.
+Kitty Helper summon now runs slightly faster and jumps slightly farther; persists on tagout and follows the opponent, attacking once per assist call.
+Neko Punch now causes a crumple state.
+Rolling Uppercut is now jump cancelable off of the opponent on block or hit.
+Cat Spike M vertical hitbox increased downward; now hits crouching characters more consistently.
+Toy Touch hitstun returned to Vanilla status.
+Sand Splash projectile hit points increased to 5; blockstun increased; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames; input changed to qcf.S (H version).
+Wall jump and wall cling now available at superjump height; wall cling input changed to b,b.

Assists: Rolling Buckler L + Rolling Slide, Sand Splash, Delta Kick H

Firebrand:
+Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 20; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; only one allowed on the screen at a time - the fire will disappear as soon as Firebrand enters startup frames for a second Hell Spitfire H.
+Luminous Body (air) no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
+Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs now cause the helper to perform his H attack; the summoned helper no longer builds meter; persists on tagout and follows the opponent, attacking once per assist call.
+Firebrand now recovers significantly faster from all throw animations.
+qcb.S (air) now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L; no higher than maximum superjump height.
+j.L hitstun increased slightly; can now link into Bon Voyage without Luminous Body.
+Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
+/- Demon Charge (all versions) now air OK; Demon Charge H can no longer be charged; Demon Charge H hitstun increased significantly.
+Hell Spitfire (all versions) now cancelable into Hell Dive (all versions) and Hell's Elevator (all versions).

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M

Haggar:
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
+f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage.
+Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
+c.H can now be canceled into a ground recovery roll on the first frame of recovery; now links into Rapid Fire Fist; assist version is fully invincible until recovery frames begin.
+Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself; projectile immune for active frames.
+Final Haggar Buster now crumples.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H

I still think Nemesis needs passive super armor on his ground dashes - he gets slaughtered by melee too easily.

Nemesis:
+Fatal Mutation now has full invincibility; places opponent in a crumple state; startup time reduced to 10 frames; L+M input places the grab hitbox in front of him, M+H in the air in front of him, and L+H straight above his head.
+Biohazard Rush now has hyper armor from frame 1 until recovery; startup reduced to 8+1; vertical hitbox increased; recovers sooner to allow for post-hyper combos.
+Bioweapon Assault now better at predicting where rockets should fire; recovers sooner, allowing for post-hyper combos.
+c.H super armor changed to frames 8-27; travel time decreased significantly; s.H super armor changed to frames 7-24.
+Startup on all aerial normals reduced by 2 frames.
+Minimum damage scaling for hypers increased to 60%.
+qcb.S now fires a self-aiming rocket with the same frame data qcf.S has.
+Clothesline Rocket L: 26 frame start up, +2 on block(no rocket, soft knockdown); previous L and M versions moved to M and H, respectively.
+Deadly Reach moves now steal health.
+Launcher Slam M now has armor from frames 8-29; carries over to the assist version.

Assists: Launcher Slam M, Clothesline Rocket M, qcb.S

I elect to remove aerial Evidence and Paper because it would likely require a new animation, and it would look odd.

Phoenix Wright:
+Evidence now works as follows: meat is only acquired when Wright has red health to recover, bad evidence guarantees that the next evidence found will be good, and bad evidence rate has been reduced in general.
+Thrown evidence now causes dizzy state on hit for 120 frames.
+”M-Maya?!” L appears closer to Wright than before, startup is reduced to 15 frames, and the shield now benefits from damage scaling.
+c.H (Turnabout) now hits low.
+Stance Change reduced to 10 frames (from 20).
+”M-Maya?!” M and H startup reduced to 20 frames.
+Discard and Investigate startup reduced by 5 frames.
+Slip-Up startup reduced to 19 frames.
+Dash distance increased by 20%, total dash time unchanged.
+Hitboxes on normals improved slightly.

Assists: “Get em’ Missile!”, Questioning (becomes Objection when appropriate), Press the Witness H

Thor:
+Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more; now safe for blockstrings against crouching characters.
+Mighty Smash M assist causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce; armored from frames 36-63; now ground bounces against Amaterasu.
+Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
+Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames; fly cancel is 1 frame; air dash range increased.
+s.H has super armor from frames 6-20.
+s.L startup reduced to 6 frames; c.L hitstun increased slightly to ensure it can always link into c.H.
+Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25 (charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging; charged version travels significantly farther and has 2 hits of super armor starting on frame 12.
+Mighty Thunder now causes pushback equivalent to Magnetic Shockwave; startup decreased to 10+4.
+Air throws now cause enough knockdown to ensure Mighty Thunder can always connect afterward.
+Mighty Punish range increased slightly.

Assists: Mighty Spark M, Mighty Smash M, Mighty Strike L

Spider-man:
*Web Glide can no longer be block canceled; Spider-man can use Web Glide three times now before touching the ground; grounded Web Glide does not count against this maximum; Web Glide may be canceled into itself.
+Web Ball H (assist) is unaffected by hitstun deterioration.
+Spider Bite (assist) hits overhead and causes a ground bounce.
+Ultimate Web Throw hitbox changed to better match the animation; startup reduced to 15+3; now air OK; aerial version has a smaller hitbox than the grounded version.
+Untechable time after Maximum Spider increased slightly; now possible to OTG follow-up.
+Standing and crouching normals now pull opponents in more.
+Web Throw M (assist) now grounds opponents who are airborn.
-Hitstun decay now continues to accumulate during Web Throw’s catch animation.

Assists: Web Ball H, Web Throw M, Spider Sting H x Spider Bite

Strider:
-Vajra (assist) untechable knockdown time decreased slightly.
+Legion travel time improved; each animal of Legion has 1 high durability point; piercing.
+Hyper Damage scaling changed from 30% to 50%.
+Formation B(Shot) no longer has a time limit; vertical hitbox extended downward to hit smaller knocked down characters.
+df.H now cancelable into Formation B (Shot).
+Minimum damage scaling on normals changed to 5%.
+Minimum damage scaling on specials changed to 10%.
+Formation A1 can no longer be negated by normal attacks.

Assists: Vajra, Formation A1, Gram H

Ghost Rider:
+Spirit of Vengeance now has hyper armor on frame 0; H follow-up recovers faster, allowing for a full combo.
+Chain-based normals now deal 15% chip damage.
+Heartless Spire vertical hitbox increased; jump-cancelable; assist version startup is 34 frames, upper body invincible.
+Judgment Strike now reaches full-screen.
+Chain of Rebuttal and Chain of Punishment vertical hitbox extended downward; both are now air OK.
+Forward dash distance increased by 50%; total active frames unchanged.
+Hellfire (all versions) are now +4 on block; startup reduced to 10 frames for all versions; recovery reduced to 14 for all versions.
+Chain of Punishment and Hell’s Embrace hitboxes widened.
+c.M startup reduced to 9 frames; hitbox increased slightly and travels slightly farther.
+Hellfire Maelstrom recovery reduced to 25 frames; -7 on block; causes heavy pushback on block.

Assists: Judgment Strike, Chain of Rebuttal, Heartless Spire

 

[onionfrog]

Felicia:
+Health increased to 900,000.
+Delta Kick H assist pushes opponents back significantly on block; point Delta Kick now hits multiple characters.
+Cat & Mouse is now special cancelable, distance increased slightly.
+Kitty Helper summon now runs slightly faster and jumps slightly farther; persists on tagout and follows the opponent, attacking once per assist call.
+Neko Punch now causes a crumple state.
+Rolling Uppercut is now jump cancelable off of the opponent on block or hit.
+Cat Spike M vertical hitbox increased downward; now hits crouching characters more consistently.
+Toy Touch hitstun returned to Vanilla status.
+Sand Splash projectile hit points increased to 5; blockstun increased; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames; input changed to qcf.S (H version).
+Wall jump and wall cling now available at superjump height; wall cling input changed to b,b.

Assists: Rolling Buckler L + Rolling Slide, Sand Splash, Delta Kick H

I'd like to point out that this would make the Rolling Buckler Assist unblockable if kitty helper was activated.
....So I'd remove it. Felicia's got pretty good assists already anyway.

 

[Karsticles]

I'd like to point out that this would make the Rolling Buckler Assist unblockable if kitty helper was activated.

 

[onionfrog]

Its too much Karst..
I oppose it, even though I'm a Felicia main.

Chaos Tide on Firebrands assists should be ok, since it wont cause any unblockables and Firebrands assists are ass.

Spider-man:
*Web Glide can no longer be block canceled; Spider-man can use Web Glide three times now before touching the ground; grounded Web Glide does not count against this maximum; Web Glide may be canceled into itself.
+Web Ball H (assist) is unaffected by hitstun deterioration.
+Spider Bite (assist) hits overhead and causes a ground bounce.
+Ultimate Web Throw hitbox changed to better match the animation; startup reduced to 15+3; now air OK; aerial version has a smaller hitbox than the grounded version.
+Untechable time after Maximum Spider increased slightly; now possible to OTG follow-up.
+Standing and crouching normals now pull opponents in more.
+Web Throw M (assist) now grounds opponents who are airborn.
-Hitstun decay now continues to accumulate during Web Throw’s catch animation.

I'd reword this and just say that it works like Spencer's Diagonal Wire Grapple assist. I think thats easier to understand.

 

[Dahbomb]

God damn it no helpers persisting on tag out. That shit is too stupid. You have no idea what kind of stuff that is going to lead into, most likely more glitches and weird shenanigans. Maybe in MVC4 but not in this game.

Deadly Reach stealing health is a bad gimmick. It's better to have health stealing on his command grab or have it so that his command grab removes all red health on someone and recovers his. Neither buffs would really change the way the character is played so it will just be a gimmick, either too broken or too useless. Basically like the health version of the Shuma command grab only its a gimmick that really only affects Phoenix.

And how do you self aim with the QCB+S rocket? Is it manual or is it auto tracking? If its auto tracking there would be no reason to use his other rocket.

 

[onionfrog]

Captain America:
+c.L is now +1 on block.
+j.d+H is now better for crossing up; +j.u+H vertical hitbox increased.
+Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster; allows for post-hyper combo follow-up through Shield Slash L OTG.
+Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly; grounded version causes more pushback on block on the first hit, and pulls the opponent in more on the second.
+Shield Slash L vertical hitbox reduced; now passes under some beams and projectiles.
+It is now easier for Captain America to combo off of his throws.
+Hyper Charging Star is now fully projectile invincible.
+Cartwheel now has invincibility from frames 1-18.
+Stars and Stripes can now be canceled into Shield Slash on hit; float point changed to allow for full combos on hit.
+Charging Star (assist) now causes Rapid Slash-like pushback on block.

Assists: Stars and Stripes, Charging Star H, Shield Slash L

I still think this is a dumb change. Sure other characters can get something off a DP, but Cap should NOT get a full combo.
Cap is good enough already at completely fucking over a ton of zoning characters, he doesn't need this too.

Tron Bonne:
+j.H returned to Vanilla status.
+Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
+Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
+Servbot Launcher recovery reduced to 20; assist version fires all 3 Servbots one after another.
+Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames; if the Beacon Bomb hits an assist, a servbot is now launched and attached to the assist character.
+Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
+Bandit Boulder now travels full screen; hitstun increased to allow better solo combos off of throws; dash and special cancelable.
+Ground dash now attack and crouch cancelable.
+Shakedown Mixer now leads to full combos.
+Minimum air dash height reduced considerably.

Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher

I don't think boulder should be dash cancellable, when combined with increased hitstun it'd give Tron some really stupid solo relaunches.
For example: hitconfirm into s.S MMHS d.H f.H(boulder) ->dash cancel -> s.S j.MMHS ...etc

Also why you taking my Boulder assist away man? Otherwise this looks good.

Firebrand:
We should probably get rid of chaos tide persisting on tag out too. Too weird, and as Dahbomb stated it could easily lead to glitches or just be stupidly overpowered.

All the other characters look good.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Oh c'mon, that's just stupid and you know it, no character should have a solo unblockable.

 

[Dahbomb]

I still think this is a dumb change. Sure other characters can get something off a DP, but Cap should NOT get a full combo.

Then how do you propose we buff the DP to be useful? That's the only change that makes sense.

I am sensing a level of bias when talking about Cap. It seems like other characters get away with way worse but when it comes to Cap people aren't even on board with putting him at parity level.

 

[FSLink]

Then how do you propose we buff the DP to be useful? That's the only change that makes sense.

I am sensing a level of bias when talking about Cap. It seems like other characters get away with way worse but when it comes to Cap people aren't even on board with putting him at parity level.

He doesn't need a full combo though, it's a lot like Ryu's without the ability to air super, it's just meant to interrupt things and counter hit, not lead into a possible dead character.

 

[Zissou]

He doesn't need a full combo though, it's a lot like Ryu's without the ability to air super, it's just meant to interrupt things and counter hit, not lead into a possible dead character.

To be fair, if Ryu couldn't cancel into air super, his dp would be pretty garbage.

 

[Karsticles]

Cap still has no overhead or solo.mixups. We are giving him cheap tools in place of that.

God damn it no helpers persisting on tag out. That shit is too stupid. You have no idea what kind of stuff that is going to lead into, most likely more glitches and weird shenanigans. Maybe in MVC4 but not in this game.

Deadly Reach stealing health is a bad gimmick. It's better to have health stealing on his command grab or have it so that his command grab removes all red health on someone and recovers his. Neither buffs would really change the way the character is played so it will just be a gimmick, either too broken or too useless. Basically like the health version of the Shuma command grab only its a gimmick that really only affects Phoenix.

And how do you self aim with the QCB+S rocket? Is it manual or is it auto tracking? If its auto tracking there would be no reason to use his other rocket.

Stealing significant health is a good good gimmick for a character who gets by on super armor. Especially if we gave his dash armor, which we should.

Tracking rocket isn't always the best choice because it has big recovery, while TKed rocket does not. No one uses his other rockets. They suck.

 

[FSLink]

To be fair, if Ryu couldn't cancel into air super, his dp would be pretty garbage.

Without meter, it's an okay situational move for hitting certain characters out of supers or something, but that's about it, which is how I feel Cap's should stay as too.

Cap still has no overhead or solo.mixups. We are giving him cheap tools in place of that.

I don't disagree but I don't feel a full combo after a DP is the answer.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Yeah, I'd rather just have Cap be able to recover in the air and not use specials. At least he could double jump or fall with jS.

 

[Dahbomb]

He doesn't need a full combo though, it's a lot like Ryu's without the ability to air super, it's just meant to interrupt things and counter hit, not lead into a possible dead character.

First of all we have changed Ryu's DP in this version where the Denjin mode DP basically leads into a full combo as does the charged up DP. We also changed Shinku Hadoken so that he guarantees an air hyper after a DP.

Secondly, Cap is the only character who gets absolutely NOTHING from his DP. That is a problem when other characters get a lot more. The risk reward is simply not there.. why risk an unsafe move for very low damage? The move is pure shit because of this.. there needs to be more reward for the risk.

On the point of Nemesis... just replace the ground Rocket with a tracking one. No need for a new input then if "his other rockets are garbage". That actually ends up making more sense then to give him a new input rocket launcher which essentially makes the manual rockets useless.

Still no on dash armor. I still don't understand how the stealing health mechanic works. Is it a percentage of damage dealt with the Noodles? Can he gain back health from doing Noodle combos? Why not apply this property to his command throws as well since they also use the Noodle? What about red health? When you gain back health are you recovering Nemesis' red health or regular health?

IMO the best way to do this health mechanic gimmick is that Nemesis steals your red health through grabs/command grabs. Essentially the situation I am seeing is that you get a combo with Nemesis and in this game that will most likely not kill so you will have to go for a reset. Nemesis has mostly command grab resets and when you go for a reset usually that character is bleeding already (a ton of red health). Doing the command throw will remove all that red health from the opponent and add to your own red health (sort of like throwing in SFxT but with the added component of you getting more red health as well). It adds a level of strategy to it sort of like a snap back. This actually indirectly buffs Nemesis as an anchor character although he would still be ass in that position.

 

[FSLink]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";88665029]Yeah, I'd rather just have Cap be able to recover in the air and not use specials. At least he could double jump or fall with jS.[/QUOTE]

This or I'd be okay with it being cancellable to an air OK Star and Stripes super too somehow, a full combo just seems a bit much for Cap.

 

[Dahbomb]

We can't give him that super in the air unfortunately (against the rules).

I am fine with the DP having fast recovery if he is not getting a combo off of it.

 

[shaowebb]

Ya know, with Capcom telling those Ghosts N Goblins kickstarter guys if they got enough support they'd make them official it opens up a question about Marvel...if the fans had a proposed patch list on a kickstarter page and a price tag of what it would cost to get it implemented

Spoiler

(Capcom would have to give a pricetag of course as the goal after running the proposed notes by them first)

in UMVC3 would Capcom support it and implement the changes if it got enough fan support to pay for it?

Hell at this point I'd pay them just to make HH mode have local, but if this proposed patch of yours was pitched to Combofiend and then proposed as a fan funded kickstarter patch endorsed and implemented by Capcom if it met goal I could see it exploding.

Thoughts?

 

[FSLink]

Ya know, with Capcom telling those Ghosts N Goblins kickstarter guys if they got enough support they'd make them official it opens up a question about Marvel...if the fans had a proposed patch list on a kickstarter page and a price tag of what it would cost to get it implemented

Spoiler

Capcom would have to give a pricetag of course as the goal after running the proposed notes by them first

in UMVC3 would Capcom support it and implement the changes if it got enough fan support to pay for it?

Hell at this point I'd pay them just to make HH mode have local, but if this proposed patch of yours was pitched to Combofiend and then proposed as a fan funded kickstarter patch endorsed and implemented by Capcom if it met goal I could see it exploding.

Thoughts?

I don't think it'd work as far as getting our patch approved and actually used, but if it were organized and widely talked about it could give some of the Capcom guys some ammo in getting some sort of patch or sequel approved in the future.

 

[Dahbomb]

The problem with that is the "fans" can't make this patch come true unless someone figured out how to hack the game. This is a different situation from the GnG project.

The other problem is Kickstarting something that Capcom themselves is doing. It goes against the whole idea of Kickstarter projects which is to avoid the big publisher involvement.

Eventhubs had an article and a poll about this. While a lot of people voted for it there were still a lot of people who did not want... not the patch but the kickstarter. It's shady if Capcom pulls it off, I mean it's a content update that is normally free for other games.

 

[shaowebb]

I don't think it'd work as far as getting our patch approved and actually used, but if it were organized and widely talked about it could give some of the Capcom guys some ammo in getting some sort of patch or sequel approved in the future.

So you dont think Combofiend could get you guys a price tag and let you run a kickstarter for this once its done in order to get a patch made at no out of pocket cost to Capcom? I honestly dont think a patch is coming unless someone else pays for it, but if Capcom could agree to a deal where they supply the coders and implement the fan patch if the fans paid them for their work it could happen. This looks far more likely to be fundable than that Ghosts N Goblins project they said they'd support if it hit goal.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Haggar is an incredibly strong point character and those buff suggestions are completely insane. Besides fixing Rapid Fire Fist not always working he needs nothing else.

 

[Dahbomb]

So you dont think Combofiend could get you guys a price tag and let you run a kickstarter for this once its done in order to get a patch made at no out of pocket cost to Capcom? This looks far more likely to be fundable than that Ghosts N Goblins project they said they'd support if it hit goal.

I really doubt that would happen (that is we get a price tag back). The issue still remains that it will be Capcom who is running the Kickstarter and that is shady as fuck.

I forgot to submit my votes for the new characters:

*Phoenix - No, object to the 19 frame overhead.

*Captain America - Y, although it seems more solutions have finally propped up that we can discuss as an alternative.

*Chris - Y

*Tron Bonne - No, specifically the dash cancelable Boulder. Unnecessary really.

*Felicia, Firebrand - No to helpers persisting on tag out.

*Haggar - Y

*Phoenix Wright - Y

*Thor - Y

*She Hulk - Y

*Nemesis - No, needs a lot of tweaking.

*Strider - Y

*Ghost Rider - Y

*Spider Man - Y

 

[shaowebb]

I really doubt that would happen (that is we get a price tag back). The issue still remains that it will be Capcom who is running the Kickstarter and that is shady as fuck.

So all you can do is vote, make your notes and pitch them but you cant do anything to guarantee they receive funding because Capcom in no way could ever just pitch the patch as something they couldn't afford and wouldn't do on their own unless crowd sourcing helped them make it possible without offending everyone?

 

[onionfrog]

Haggar:
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
+f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage.
+Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
+c.H can now be canceled into a ground recovery roll on the first frame of recovery; now links into Rapid Fire Fist; assist version is fully invincible until recovery frames begin.
+Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself; projectile immune for active frames.
+Final Haggar Buster now crumples.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H

One more thing, you mean fully invincible during crossover counter right? Not the assist itself?

 

[Dahbomb]

One more thing, you mean fully invincible during crossover counter right? Not the assist itself?

Yeah that's just for crossover counter.

Shaowebb that's a hell of a loaded question. Capcom also probably can't do the patch because they don't expect a high return of investment on it and there are probably licensing issues that have to be ironed out. The patch crowd sourcing is a separate issue from this.

 

[onionfrog]

Yeah that's just for crossover counter.

Ok cool. It should probably specifically say that.

Also I'll be willing to read over the full write up(with the explanations of why each change was made) and look for mistakes and such whenever it is done.

Crowd sourcing a patch would be a bad idea IMO. Capcom are big boys, they shouldn't need crowd funding to rebalance one of their games. It would set a bad precedent for major studios trying to get things crowdfunded to reduce their own risk/expenses.

The best case scenario is if someone figures out how to mod the game and it gets balanced by the community ala Project M... (Only not shitty and fanservicey... No changing characters movesets entirely and whatnot.)

Of course neither of these will happen...

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

I know this is sorta off topic, but I just finished Ace Attorney 5. So good.

 

[FSLink]

I know this is sorta off topic, but I just finished Ace Attorney 5. So good.

It's quite amazing yeah. In a MvC4 I wouldn't mind AA5 Wright with Athena backing him up with Mood Matrix moves or something.

 

[Karsticles]

I know this is sorta off topic, but I just finished Ace Attorney 5. So good.

My wife got the first one last Christmas. It is still unopened.

I will fix the Haggar change for clarity.

I feel like Firebrand needs something beefy for hi assists. Heck, we figured out one for Spidey...

 

[Dahbomb]

Have the Demon Missile assist cause a crumple stun on standing opponent, wall bounce on juggled/airborne opponent.

Having improved frame data on his H Fireball would make that assist much
more usable anyway.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

My wife got the first one last Christmas. It is still unopened.
=

WTF jump on that. It is an excellent game to play before going to bed, like a good book.

 

[LakeEarth]

I still think Nemesis needs passive super armor on his ground dashes - he gets slaughtered by melee too easily.

Nemesis:
+Startup on all aerial normals reduced by 2 frames.

Oooh, this is a good change for Nemesis. His j.B is awesome and criminally underused, this will just make it all the better.

 

[onionfrog]

WTF jump on that. It is an excellent game to play before going to bed, like a good book.

Seriously. I've only played the first two games, but they were great.

Have the Demon Missile assist cause a crumple stun on standing opponent, wall bounce on juggled/airborne opponent.

How about just having it cause a wall bounce.

Having it cause a crumple in one case and a wall bounce in the other just seems weird.

Having improved frame data on his H Fireball would make that assist much
more usable anyway.

If its fast enough to be a consistent OTG assist now then I think that would be sufficient.

Haggar is an incredibly strong point character and those buff suggestions are completely insane. Besides fixing Rapid Fire Fist not always working he needs nothing else.

I think the haggar changes are fine.
He gets the ability to do some chip, can get in on problematic characters somewhat easier and is more capable of solo comebacks.(With solo combo after level 3, being able to combo into super of an air throw and a better giant haggar press super.)

C'mon, how hype would it be to see a solo haggar comeback off a sliver of health in a tourney?