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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!

GGs racket. Damn Taskmaster gets me salty. :lol

Haha no way! The constant long combos with joe/frank, TACs, DHC into slow is soooo annoying!

I can picture both of this shit happening right now.
Racket's Taskmaster is way better than mine, so I can imagine Beef probably teabagged him on KO.
Personally, it's a double edged sword playing with Beef. He gives you great matches...but fuck those fucking TACs and the slo-mo dhc.

I gotta get out of the Gran Turismo vortex.
 
It's not like I'm gonna stop doing TACs!

HAH! I actually think I get more annoyed when my Nova or Spencer get completely zoned out by voomerangs. I don't think Task's arrows have enough durability to help get through. Next time we play I'll probably try Insaynne's team, even though I don't really like using Doom.
 

onionfrog

Member
Personally, it's a double edged sword playing with Beef. He gives you great matches...but fuck those fucking TACs and the slo-mo dhc.
This is exactly how I feel when I play Beef. lol
He TACs the most out if anyone I've played here! ... And it works, so I can't hate!

Man even the slightest patch rumor just reinvigorates this thread. Must also be because of the theory patch nearing completion and being distributed. I want to believe though.
Imagine SlasherMcGirk with Phoenix Wright buffs!
0_0

I'm scared!
 

Dahbomb

Member
After reviewing the Hulk Gamma Quake annotations, I don't think it needs a change at all.

This is pretty much the same thing as Trish throwing out her Round Trip. Yea you get "locked down" but since you can push block the RT it sends Trish all the way back and she is unable to do any mix ups on you. She only gets a mix up if there is another character who tags in. The same thing applies for Hulk and his new Gamma Quake... Hulk would get no real mix up during Gamma Quake as he would get pushed back and he has worse advance guard negating ability than Trish.


I am also going to support changing Chris's Shotgun from 15 frame start up to 20 frame start up. The problem with the move was more the lower hit box which we have already improved. At 15 frame it would become a mid range Disruptor type move with a wider range and it would be really annoying to fight against for rushdown only character (Chris's Grenade is already really annoying and he had his Flamethrower buffed as well). 20 frame is fine.

If you want a more legitimate Chris guns buff then Machine Gun M should be buffed from 25 frame to 20 frame. Currently its slower than even Magnum which is 22 frame and far more potent. You actually need the M gun against faster, shorter characters because Magnum whiffs and the long start up kinda gets Chris pressured easily. At 20 frame it would be similar frame data to H version of EMD.


On the topic of Nemesis, just leave out the life leech mechanic altogether.


And I am inclined to agree with the fact that VoM should not be allowed to gain meter from any source. VoM is a utility hyper that is far more crippling than a Devil Trigger or most other powered states. It would make Ammy + meter building assist a 9-1 match up against a majority of the cast and it would be absolutely ridiculous to fight against. Imagine Ammy starting the fight as a point against a Hulk/Haggar team, she immediately jumps, calls meter building assist and uses VoM. Now during VoM you can get around 2 assist calls if you make one right at the start and one right at the end. That's 2/3rds of the cost refunded and the rest you can easily make up with another assist call while playing with her new and improved Beads in non VoM mode. That means that characters like Hulk/Haggar are in a perpetual slow state for most of the fight and they literally cannot do anything. It's a potential single player strat against a large amount of team compositions. It would be too annoying to fight against.
 
This is exactly how I feel when I play Beef. lol
He TACs the most out if anyone I've played here! ... And it works, so I can't hate!


Imagine SlasherMcGirk with Phoenix Wright buffs!
0_0

I'm scared!

If this patch came to fruition, I think I would generally do better overall but I'm still going to get owned by the same characters/teams that I still currently do.
 
HAH! I actually think I get more annoyed when my Nova or Spencer get completely zoned out by voomerangs. I don't think Task's arrows have enough durability to help get through. Next time we play I'll probably try Insaynne's team, even though I don't really like using Doom.
Zoning Spencer out makes me feel all warm inside.

Task's triple arrow has enough durability to get through 1 Voomerang and still have one arrow left. It's got nothing on 2 Voomerangs.
This is exactly how I feel when I play Beef. lol
He TACs the most out if anyone I've played here! ... And it works, so I can't hate!
I noticed lots of people in this thread very rarely TAC, and attempt to counter even less until about 10 games in. Only God's Beard makes an attempt on the first game, and then he started using the Secret Tech.
I don't think Beef as much of a choice with Frank on that team but it's still annoying. Haha
Joe/Frank is my favorite duo, but I have other teams. They're just not as fun.
 

onionfrog

Member
If this patch came to fruition, I think I would generally do better overall but I'm still going to get owned by the same characters/teams that I still currently do.
Yeah. I know you don't run into it against me, but I can see how a lot of zoners can be a bad matchup for your team.
I noticed lots of people in this thread very rarely TAC, and attempt to counter even less until about 10 games in. Only God's Beard makes an attempt on the first game, and then he started using the Secret Tech.
Yeah, I actually feel guilty whenever I TAC. It's so scummy.
I like real combos.

TAC infinites are fucking hype in tournaments, but I can't do that shit.
 
SEND IT DAHBOMB. SEEEEEEEEEEND IT.
Things look like they are building up to something Marvel. It sounds fine. SEND IT.
There's no need to rush. We will do this right.

After reviewing the Hulk Gamma Quake annotations, I don't think it needs a change at all.

This is pretty much the same thing as Trish throwing out her Round Trip. Yea you get "locked down" but since you can push block the RT it sends Trish all the way back and she is unable to do any mix ups on you. She only gets a mix up if there is another character who tags in. The same thing applies for Hulk and his new Gamma Quake... Hulk would get no real mix up during Gamma Quake as he would get pushed back and he has worse advance guard negating ability than Trish.
He could possibly squeeze a command grab in. That is the intention.

I am also going to support changing Chris's Shotgun from 15 frame start up to 20 frame start up. The problem with the move was more the lower hit box which we have already improved. At 15 frame it would become a mid range Disruptor type move with a wider range and it would be really annoying to fight against for rushdown only character (Chris's Grenade is already really annoying and he had his Flamethrower buffed as well). 20 frame is fine.
I can back this.

If you want a more legitimate Chris guns buff then Machine Gun M should be buffed from 25 frame to 20 frame. Currently its slower than even Magnum which is 22 frame and far more potent. You actually need the M gun against faster, shorter characters because Magnum whiffs and the long start up kinda gets Chris pressured easily. At 20 frame it would be similar frame data to H version of EMD.
That messes with its assist frame data, and it works well with some characters because of the delay (Thor!).

On the topic of Nemesis, just leave out the life leech mechanic altogether.
:(

And I am inclined to agree with the fact that VoM should not be allowed to gain meter from any source. VoM is a utility hyper that is far more crippling than a Devil Trigger or most other powered states. It would make Ammy + meter building assist a 9-1 match up against a majority of the cast and it would be absolutely ridiculous to fight against.
First of all, absolutely not. Most characters cannot survive without a neutral assist. I believe I am the only person in this thread who actually knows what it is like to run Dark Harmonizer as your main assist for a long period of time. It is hard as fuck, and only a few characters can pull it off. Those characters have excellent defenses and mobility, like Dormammu, Magneto, and Doom. Whenever you talk about Dark Harmonizer, it sounds like someone who has never experienced play with it as a primary assist. It is just not that damn easy.

If anything it might be viable, and it would give birth to a new team structure that sounds cool, but is high risk, especially with a low damage character like Amaterasu.

Veil of Mist only lasts 300 frames. Dark Harmonizer can be called every 135 frames. So you get 2 calls max during Veil of Mist, for 60% of a bar - you aren't getting to chain this forever, and you aren't going to lock teams out with it.

Imagine Ammy starting the fight as a point against a Hulk/Haggar team, she immediately jumps, calls meter building assist and uses VoM. Now during VoM you can get around 2 assist calls if you make one right at the start and one right at the end. That's 2/3rds of the cost refunded and the rest you can easily make up with another assist call while playing with her new and improved Beads in non VoM mode.
The big problem here is that you are forgetting Veil of Mist's frame data:
20+1 startup
27 recovery

How is Amaterasu getting almost 1 full second of breathing room at the start of the match to pull this move off? No Hulk or Haggar player will let that happen safely.

That means that characters like Hulk/Haggar are in a perpetual slow state for most of the fight and they literally cannot do anything. It's a potential single player strat against a large amount of team compositions. It would be too annoying to fight against.
It still wouldn't be a killer. We're talking about fighting one of the game's lowest damage characters (even in our patch). Amaterasu is going to need a lot of resets, and she's still going to have to deal with things like Gamma Charge + Drones without any assist coverage at all. I do think this will be powerful, but it's not the killer you think it is. It's a good synergistic combination, which is part of what we are trying to encourage.

I guarantee you that we have created more broken things in this patch with our assist changes.
 

Zissou

Member
Even if you think Dahbomb's worries are unfounded, you still didn't address my worries with the potentially crazy DHC into astral vision.

Also- I just finished with the grammar fixes!
 

Ghazi

Member
TAC infinites are fucking hype in tournaments, but I can't do that shit.

Jill's is the easiest to do of all time, it's pretty embarrassing how easy it is to do, actually.

Have you seen my execution though? :(

I stick to simple combos that I know I won't drop.

lol, mine's worse. After the TAC (this is up notations), you literally only have to do M, M, H, qcf M, then hold L and feral crouch over and over again.
 

Zissou

Member
Skrull- We have no explanation for the inferno safety change, only for the "He loves me!" quote change. We need an explanation here. Thoughts?

Storm- It's mentioned in her super jump float assist call annotation that she would have to be hit midair in order to get a second assist call using this technique, but doesn't this go against the system-wide super jump height assist call change?

Thor- in his assists annotation, the term "expansion assist" is used, I don't understand what's meant by this. Combo extension?

X-23- it's mentioned in her aerial normal hitstun buff annotation that it will make mirage feint loops easier, but those are using grounded normals, no?

Vergil- won't the free spiral sword formation switch partially negate our intended nerf? Presently, changing the sword formation gives you the full duration for the new formation. Our patched Vergil always has to spend two bars, but if the player times it well, they can do a free formation change at the last possible moment, effectively doubling the length of time they are active.
 
I noticed lots of people in this thread very rarely TAC, and attempt to counter even less until about 10 games in. Only God's Beard makes an attempt on the first game, and then he started using the Secret Tech.

With a team like yours and sometimes even mine it would be foolish NOT to TACs. I too have noticed personally the higher the skilled the player the less they try to TAC or even block TAC's. It's like people feel they are above it. Some people won't even go for it even if it benefits them. Heck certain Phoenix players will mash side TAC everytime just so they don't lose any meter so it's almost guaranteed.

But smart TACers like yourself Beef TAC at weird and often inappropriate teams when the opponent isn't ready to counter it. It's hard to counter it as it is already but sometimes I feel like it's not even worth trying. Sometimes when I mash to counter it and the opponent drops a combo or goes for a throw reset, I end up throwing out a normal and the opponent capitalizes on that and gets a bigger combo out of it.
 

Dahbomb

Member
There's a big difference between playing Dormammu on point with Dark Harmonizer versus Amaterasu on point with Dark Harmonizer who has the ability to regain meter on VoM. In Dorm's case, the opposing character is not crippled but in Ammy's case they are crippled.

Being able to call 2 assists during the duration of the hyper is more than enough to keep it going for a major portion of the fight. And unlike Morrigan, Ammy can use the hyper safely in the air which means she can get it off easily especially against big body characters.


You are right in that we have probably created more "broken" stuff in the game with the new assists. The difference between that and this is that playing against Ammy while you are slowed down for 2/3rds of the fight is insanely irritating. It's like Vergil spamming Spiral Swords with Dark Harmonizer... yea sure he only gets limited calls during it and he can't do it forever but it is annoying as fuck and it leads into a situation where one player is playing without much thought and the other person is waiting for the utility hyper to be over.


Vergil- won't the free spiral sword formation switch partially negate our intended nerf? Presently, changing the sword formation gives you the full duration for the new formation. Our patched Vergil always has to spend two bars, but if the player times it well, they can do a free formation change at the last possible moment, effectively doubling the length of time they are active.
The main problem is that using two Spiral Swords > using one Spiral swords and the extra formation. Making SS a two cost up front also severely limits his potency as a DHC glitch character. Storm Swords can easily be countered (successful raw tag, cross over counter, DHC out or snap out Vergil) and Blistering Swords takes skill to control and use properly so its fine... much more interesting than just using Spiral Swords two times to maintain pressure.
 
I am editing Dahbomb's character summaries right now. Taking a long time. :(

Even if you think Dahbomb's worries are unfounded, you still didn't address my worries with the potentially crazy DHC into astral vision.

Also- I just finished with the grammar fixes!
I don't see why spending 2 bars on Veil of Mist -> Astral Vision and getting the meter back is a problem when this is possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNN1aCcQ4WY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2I_B7rSK4E

There are plenty of hypers that let Morrigan DHC into Astral Vision and link Soul Drain while continuing the combo afterward. Bionic Lancer, Million Dollars, Chaotic Flame (corners), Dimension Slash, and Phoenix Rage, just to name a few. If letting Phoenix expend meter and gain it back isn't a problem, I don't think this is.

Skrull- We have no explanation for the inferno safety change, only for the "He loves me!" quote change. We need an explanation here. Thoughts?
Add this in:
"Most characters with unsafe attack options have an option to spend a bar of meter to make that attack option safe. Hulk, Vergil, and C. Viper are prime examples of this principle. However, Super-Skrull has no safe hypers. We feel that part of the reason Super-Skrull is not used often outside of his anchor position is his lack of safe attack options. While we certainly do not want to make Meteor Smash safe, spending a bar for safety seems reasonable, especially with the damage drop we gave Inferno."

Storm- It's mentioned in her super jump float assist call annotation that she would have to be hit midair in order to get a second assist call using this technique, but doesn't this go against the system-wide super jump height assist call change?
A second assist call off of Float, we mean. Feel free to clarify.

Thor- in his assists annotation, the term "expansion assist" is used, I don't understand what's meant by this. Combo extension?
I probably mean combo extension. Unless it is Mighty Strike L (Charged), by which I mean an assist which expands outward - the term is used in the strategy guide.

X-23- it's mentioned in her aerial normal hitstun buff annotation that it will make mirage feint loops easier, but those are using grounded normals, no?
She has aerial and grounded versions - I am just talking about the aerial loops.

Vergil- won't the free spiral sword formation switch partially negate our intended nerf? Presently, changing the sword formation gives you the full duration for the new formation. Our patched Vergil always has to spend two bars, but if the player times it well, they can do a free formation change at the last possible moment, effectively doubling the length of time they are active.
I am okay with that. The problem is the lockdown he gets for 1 bar currently. By making Spiral Swords cost 2 bars, Vergil can still only get 2 Spiral Swords out before he needs meter. It limits his options and forces the player to really know what he/she is doing before expending that meter. It's part of why the nerf is reasonable. Vergil is still a killer, but he's not braindead anymore.

There's a big difference between playing Dormammu on point with Dark Harmonizer versus Amaterasu on point with Dark Harmonizer who has the ability to regain meter on VoM. In Dorm's case, the opposing character is not crippled but in Ammy's case they are crippled.

Being able to call 2 assists during the duration of the hyper is more than enough to keep it going for a major portion of the fight. And unlike Morrigan, Ammy can use the hyper safely in the air which means she can get it off easily especially against big body characters.


You are right in that we have probably created more "broken" stuff in the game with the new assists. The difference between that and this is that playing against Ammy while you are slowed down for 2/3rds of the fight is insanely irritating. It's like Vergil spamming Spiral Swords with Dark Harmonizer... yea sure he only gets limited calls during it and he can't do it forever but it is annoying as fuck and it leads into a situation where one player is playing without much thought and the other person is waiting for the utility hyper to be over.
The big difference is that Dormammu can run away very well. Amaterasu cannot. Also, Stalking Flare + Dark Harmonizer builds back the entire bar by the time the flare + 1D2C is gone when done properly. That lockdown is way more fucking scary than anything Veil of Mist offers, and no one uses it still.

Careless Veil of Mist hypers get you bopped. I don't think it will be a problem. If it really is problematic, Veil of Mist's duration could get nerfed by Capcom.

Seriously though, this team will never happen. There's too much risk involved in having to reset the opponent 5-6 times with Amaterasu for the kill. Remember that she won't be ending combos in hypers since she's spending it on Veil of Mist, and her combos won't generate meter either.

I don't see how it would be more annoying than a typical keepaway team. A wall of Hawkeye's arrows combined with Strider kicking me in the face is far more annoying than Amaterasu running around with Veil of Mist up semi-permanently. It's roughly Rimoukon levels of annoying, I imagine.
 
With a team like yours and sometimes even mine it would be foolish NOT to TACs. I too have noticed personally the higher the skilled the player the less they try to TAC or even block TAC's. It's like people feel they are above it. Some people won't even go for it even if it benefits them. Heck certain Phoenix players will mash side TAC everytime just so they don't lose any meter so it's almost guaranteed.

Actually I think that should be a rule for phoenix players :p

anyone want to play? Fair warning though, using wifi...so expect lag...
 

Dahbomb

Member
No one is talking about resets, we are talking about Ammy keeping out people with her new and improved Beads and Cold Shots while they are slowed down as hell.

Even if it takes a long ass time to chip it's annoying as hell. The difference between this and any other keep away team is that your character is not gimped during the process, you are still playing at maximum capability of your character against Ammy even top tier characters become shitty as hell.

If this strat sucks or if this team would never happen then why did you even suggest it to begin with?


Storm- It's mentioned in her super jump float assist call annotation that she would have to be hit midair in order to get a second assist call using this technique, but doesn't this go against the system-wide super jump height assist call change?
We probably need to specify but under this change if she called an assist once during her super jump float... she cannot call an assist again until she grounds herself whether she gets hit or not.
 
Feedback on character descriptions.

Yeah just give us both editing privileges.

For everyone here, I made up a small description of each character that gives a general outline of our methodology for balancing them. I made this in one stretch without much proof reading so please read through this and find mistakes/inconsistencies.

(Thor is missing right now, maybe some other character too I will add that in)
I edited the posts directly. Mostly for grammar, maybe a little content added in. Just copy/paste these directly into the guide.


Akuma:

Akuma is a high damage character who is balanced by his stubby normals. While his limbs are too stubby for the health bracket he is in (he has worse normals than Ryu, who has 250K health more than him), improving limbs would generally mean getting new normals/moves or getting big hit box changes. The other problem with Akuma is that he lacks mobility for his health bracket... he lacks an air dash, which even Oni has in SF4! His Raging Demon is rarely worth the meter investment compared to his other, more useful hypers. We would like to see his point game improved so that he is more viable outside of the 3rd slot on a team. As a support character Akuma is mostly fine; he has a great assist and some nice DHCs. As an anchor, Akuma is a solid choice; he is self-sufficient as a character in terms of damage and the ability to get hits/throw combos. We do feel that in terms of gameplay options, Akuma is rather straightforward and dull. We wanted to give him some extra flair, and this was the primary reason fireballs can now be canceled into Demon Flip.


Amaterasu:

A fairly balanced character that specializes more in support value than anything else. Amaterasu has excellent DHCs, THCs, and a top tier assist, but as a point she is lacking a bit. She lacks damage and good mobility options for her health bracket. In addition, her Rosary stance is disappointing, and the stance doesn't see much use outside of Cold Star chip damage following Okami Shuffle. We worked to see her point value improved so she is more viable in the 1st or 2nd team slots. In addition, we provided more legitimate choices in her assist selection, as right now it's suicidal to pick anything other than Cold Shots as an assist.


Arthur:

Arthur's only saving grace in this game is that he's a decent anchor and has one good assist that turns into a great assist on power up. However, his overall flaws as a character are too much for most players, and he often ends up being a liability on the team. The main weakness of the character is the way Gold Armor is balanced: the drawbacks are severe, and the benefits do not make up for it. We made the stringent drawbacks of the move tamer so Arthur is not on a countdown to doom whenever he powers up.

Arthur is also in the dubious position of being a keepaway character who generally loses to other keepaway characters. We improved the frame data on his zoning specials, we improved the frame data on his normals so they are actually usable, and his less useful moves were made more useful (particularly his counter). While many players have asked for Arthur to have a ground dash, we think it is more interesting to make him viable without ruining his design intent. As such, we added several improvements to Arthur's defensive game, especially on his way down from a jump, as this is when he is most vulnerable.
I removed the part about giving Arthur more mobility - that's not something I want, and I don't think we all said we want it as a committee. I discussed why it is better to not change that, instead.

Captain America:

Captain America is a mediocre character against rushdown, and a vicious killer against keepaway. We wanted to better balance him to be a vicious killer against everyone, and that meant improving his offensive melee options. He lacks in the mix-up department, and more importantly he lacks good pressure/block strings while being extremely assist-reliant to do anything. He needed better pressure, better normals, and better ways to convert off of throws. Finally, he is severely lacking in the assist department. While he is obviously tuned as a point character (most point characters have an invincible hyper that they can use to bail themselves out), he should have some decent assists in situations where you need to DHC him out.
I'm not sure I agree with Captain America being tuned as a point character. He is often good second so he can have a ton of meter saved up for Hyper Charging Star against any projectile out there.

Chris:

Chris is a solid character with a healthy amount of tools who does absurd damage in exchange for some glaring weaknesses. Chris is exceptionally weak to tri dash type offense, and if he doesn't have a mine set up he is without any tools to counter aerial approaches. Furthermore, he lacks any type of zoning coverage that is air to air. Changing this would require a new move, but it would blur a distinction between Chris and Deadpool, who already both jump and gun a lot in their neutral. We also wish to see some tool improvements on the character, particularly his Shotgun, assists, and hypers. He just needed a little more "Marvel" in him. Finally, it is imperative that Chris also have some additional way to open someone up beyond just the standard low or throw mix up - we suggested a standing overhead. In exchange for his tools improving and his weaknesses being more covered, we reduced Chris' Flamethrower damage so that he can't easily kill characters off of any touch or throw. This is in line with tweaking the damage of the cast to more acceptable levels.


Chun-Li:

Chun-Li is a high execution rushdown character who essentially personifies "too much effort for little gain". She also lacks ways to get in beyond a fairly linear air dash, and for her health bracket this means she is food to most zoners. To help her approach without changing her general play feel, we made Kikoken dash-cancelable to give her a safe approach option and pressure tool. This will help distinguish her from other rushdown characters while keeping in line with her high execution design.

On top of this, her Kikosho was made to OTG to improve her role as a team player - her THCs will shine. This also eliminates two "problems" with the character: Kikosho now performs how it looks like it should, and she now has an easy ABC combo option for newer players. We improved Spinning Bird Kicks in general, and gave her new assist options to help her fulfill any team spot, such as EX Spinning Bird Kick.


C Viper

C. Viper is an excellent point character. C. Viper was toned down under the context of other powerful characters being toned down as well. We feel that C. Viper is generally fair outside of her unblockable setups, and that she is strong in accordance with the amount of work she takes to win matches. While removing all meterless unblockables was a goal of ours, we feel that while you can potentially get out of ground unblockables through the use of crossover counters. However, against airborne opponents Focus Attack Level 3 a free opener and that leads to "single player" game situations where the Viper player keeps on killing incoming characters by locking them down as the move charges.

We also added more visualization to her EX moves like in the Street Fighter games, and we definitely want to see her damage scaling lowered to more normal levels (right now her special damage scaling is among the highest in the game). The stronger visualization provides two benefits: first, it creates parity for her across games. Second, it provides a minor visual indicator for what are otherwise moves that are extremely strong but have no visual or audio indication, unlike every other hyper in the game. To compensate for these nerfs, added C. Viper's Optic Beam as an assist. This would allow more versatility in picking her as a character on a team, as she would be able to bring more tools to the table aside from just her strength as a point. We fully expect her to become a terrifying anchor with her EX moves and new team support ability.

Dante

Dante is among the most balanced and versatile characters in the game, and we wish that all characters were like him. He requires skill and in-depth character knowledge to play at his maximum potential which is fantastic. The only buffs we suggest are to bring some of his normals to bring in line with the rest of the game - particularly his slow jab and the pushback/hit stun on his normals - so that he can properly confirm combos. The only nerfs we suggest are slight ones to Jam Session, which slaughters slow characters through its incredible pushback, and Dante being the only character in the game who can block after a whiffed normal without expending meter.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I'm not sure I agree with Captain America being tuned as a point character. He is often good second so he can have a ton of meter saved up for Hyper Charging Star against any projectile out there.
The thing is that some characters are OBVIOUSLY tuned for being point while others are obviously tuned for being support characters. It's the game's inherent design.

Like a dedicated point character almost always has the following three properties:

*Unsafe hypers
*Hypers with invincibility
*Mediocre assists

This includes characters like Viper, Jill, Captain America, Viewtiful Joe, Spider Man which are the prototypical point characters. They have an easy way to bail themselves out with an invincible hyper but getting them in is a problem and they normally lack good assists.

Now of course there are exceptions to this. Wolverine is a point character but he does have a safe hyper (he can bail himself out with Berserker Barrage and he has mediocre assists). Iron Fist has unsafe hypers and an invincible hyper but he has one good assist.


We made assists all around better but we didn't actually address this dichotomy of point vs support character. I am 100% OK with this dichotomy. Like we didn't give Cap or Viper safe hypers they can DHC in with so their natural position on a team is still #1.


In the case of Cap, he is a horrible second because in situations where you are getting mauled you can't exactly bring him in via DHC because it's unsafe he will just get punished. You can't use that DHC in most situations because his hypers don't go full screen. Cap really isn't the type of character who likes to use up the team's meter unless its for the kill, his HCS punishes are situational not something he can bank on because its unsafe.



I am fine with the editing so far.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The only buffs we suggest are to bring some of his normals to bring in line with the rest of the game
Typo.

Damn we need Zissou to come in with the grammar/typo fixes.

Karst I will copy/paste them when you finish all of them. You can post them here or PM me. Most of these seem fine so I don't think there will be much controversy over these.
 

Ghazi

Member
Hopping on in a few min! Ill send you a f/r, my tag is Sigmaah : D

Sure! Let's play. GuardianE9999 is my tag. Bear in mind that I haven't played in about three months, so excuse the rust. :p

I need to play with you guys more. I'm just usually scared to bother you, Guardian, when you're on Netflix. And Sigmaah, Zero himself is extremely intimidating to me and I cry when fighting him.
 

Frantic

Member
Akuma -
+Raging Demon hard knockdown time increased; now possible to OTG follow-up with Hyakki Gojin.
This is part of the nigh-univeral(typo) buff to level 3 hypers that we agreed on.  Right now, Raging Demon is of questionable use.


Also, I fine the interludes about the universal changes to be a bit jarring. It breaks the flow of the annotations, and I feel they would be better suited in their own section immediately before the character changes. Just my opinion.

Cap -
+j.d+H is now better for crossing up; +j.u+H vertical hitbox increased.
Captain America has problems opening opponents up.  He has no overhead, no command throw, and no high/low mix-ups.  His sole option to open defensive opponents up is to use his predictable Cartwheel combined with an assist.  By making his anti-ground kick better at crossing up, combined with his double jump, he now has a new tool to get past defensive opponents.

This move is supposed to be an anti-air kick, but the hitbox is too small to be effective for these purposes.  By increasing it, Captain America is now better able to utilize his intended moveset.
This is a bit awkward to read, since there's no clarification as to which move you're referring to when you transition into the second paragraph. I would add more clarification to which one is being referred to right from the start, so as to avoid confusion, since I myself had to reread it to realize you switched to talking about the anti-air kick.

Dante – (These are just my old ones, for the sake of completion)
+c.L startup reduced to 6 frames and can be chained into from s.L.
Dante has the slowest normals in the game for a non-heavy. Giving him a faster c.L(Typoed as s.L) helps provide him with an option up close against opponents. While Dante is a spacing character, he still needs tools to make him somewhat threatening up close since he no longer has The Hammer’s invincibility from Vanilla. c.L chaining into s.L helps open up c.L chaining into s.L helps open up combo and pressure options for him.

+Fireworks regains piercing ability.
Stinger canceled into Reverb Shock is one of Dante's most commonly used neutral poking tools, and due to Stinger's large hitbox, it is often likely to catch a stray assist call. However, due to Firework's lack of piercing, it's common for one character to fall out. In some cases, if the point character is the one to fall out, they can tech forward and punish the recovery of Fireworks. Giving it piercing reduces this chance. Additionally, using Fireworks in the neutral is a strong – albeit difficult to execute – option that is hindered slightly by its lack of piercing.

+c.M pushback on hit returned to Vanilla levels; active frames increased to 3.
Dante's cr.M is a strong mid-ranged poke that is marred by a lack of active frames and an incredible amount of pushback that makes confirming off it harder than necessary. These changes help to encourage the usage of the move as a neutral poke.

Deadpool -
+j.L changed to +10/9 on hit/block.
Presently, j.L works well as a low-to-the-ground overheads, but it is difficult to link off of.  Increasing the hitstun/blockstun slightly will improve its usage and help Deadpool’s offense.
I would make some mention of how j.L is one of Deadpool's better air-to-ground buttons due to its better speed over his only other viable air-to-ground button(j.S), but its lack of hitstun/blockstun makes it less viable to use in those situations.

And, as Zissou said, Ninja Gift M has no OTG properties. I think I suggested giving it OTG properties, but it was never officially added.

Dr. Doom
+Recovery after a forward air throw reduced slightly.
Conversions off of forward air throws are inconsistent at best for Dr. Doom.  This helps ensure players are able to convert more consistently.  It would still be difficult, as Doom players will need to hop across the screen to convert even with this change.  It will just be slightly more forgiving.
Is this particularly necessary? I don't have much trouble converting off forward airthrows from midscreen with Doom, and my only 'practice' was just watching the likes of Champ do it. I know he has issues converting off super jump height forward airthrows, but I don't think reducing the recovery is going to help with that.

This loops(I assume this is supposed to be singular?) is boring to watch as it takes a long time, and we would like to encourage players to use Buktooth loops for improved gameplay flow.

Dormammu -
+0D1C and 0D2C now hit OTG.
Each of Dormammu’s Dark Spells should have some use, even if that use is limited.  1D0C and 2D0C have solid hitboxes and are +1 on block, giving him a tool that can force breathing room when needed.  However, 0D1C and 0D2C are entirely useless.  The spikes create no pushback, are unsafe on block, and their damage is miniscule while scaling combos heavily.  Giving them the ability to hit OTG will provide Dormammu’s combo options slightly while making them useful.  They had this trait in his reveal trailer, even!
Did you remove the pushback on block buff on 0D2C, or was that never implemented? I always felt 0D2C should cause enough pushback to push characters full screen, since it would give it a real neutral use, especially since he wants that space.

Felicia -
Felicia is supposedly the mix-up queen of the game, but her options still feel lacking.
Jill is the mixup queen, not Felicia! :p

+Toy Touch hitstun returned to Vanilla status.
We do not know why this was nerfed in Ultimate, and do not think it should have been.  Felicia should get better combos than she does off of ground bouncing Delta Kick.
Doesn't she already get Toy Touch combos after a ground bounce Delta Kick? Dash up, Toy Touch, jump loop x 2, air combo into whatever potential extensions she may have. Are you talking about just launching after a Delta Kick and getting additional combo after that, or something?

Hawkeye -
+Ice Breaker M now causes a ground bounce on airborne opponents when performed after an aerial Trick Maneuver.
With the new Trick Maneuver changes, Hawkeye players will be more inclined to approach or even zone with Trick Maneuver. In situations where the opponent will be air borne, Hawkeye should still get something out of an Ice Breaker M if he hits them. This makes the move more consistent and usage not only in the neutral but in combos as well.
I still don't understand this one. Is Ice Breaker M the rolling ice shot? From the 'after an aerial Trick Maneuver' implies it's the jumping ones, which makes no sense because they do cause ground bounces against airborne characters.

Hsien-Ko
-
Senpu Bu negates pushblock, but it has high startup and can’t lead to anything even on hit.
Doesn't she get a combo on hit? Or are you talking about air-to-air or something?

Iron Fist –
++(there supposed to be two pluses here?Untechable time after air and ground throws increased.

Jill – Regarding the point about increasing the damage of MGS, I did some number crunching/testing... doing somersault straight into MGS nets 32 hits out of 40. That's 80% of all possible bullets, and it does 105k at max scaling. If you take that and apply it to 20 hits, that's 16 hits, and it does 96k. Even if all hits managed to hit, it'd do a total of 120k ,whereas the old version would do 132k. If nothing is done about the actual spray, this isn't really a buff.

Taskmaster -
+Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
This move of Taskmaster is rarely used because its recovery is high, meaning even if Taskmaster successfully completes the move, he doesn't gain much of an advantage in the battle. This is another change to promote usage of counters in the game.
Does this pertain to on whiff, on successful counter, or both? Should have some clarification, imo.

Tron -
+Bandit Boulder now travels full screen; hitstun increased to allow better solo combos off of throws; dash and special cancelable..
Double period! (I don't know why, but it always bugs me when there's two periods. It's not quite a period, and not quite an ellipsis.)

Viewtiful Joe -
+Voomerang (charged) changed disappear after the second hit; no longer lingers once its durability is gone.
Is this supposed to read “changed to disappear after the second hit”?

Wesker -
+Samurai Edge (Low) prioritizes point characters.
Many a happy birthday has been ruined because Wesker shoots the wrong attendee.
Is there any reason why we can't just make it hit two characters? We've improved a number of other characters happy birthday ability, why not Wesker's?

Wolverine -
-Fatal Claw damage slightly decreased.
Wolverine does slightly too much damage for the ease of which he obtains it.  We also want Berserker Barrage X to become a useful option outside of chipping opponents after a Berserker Barrage.
I would make mention of the fact that Fatal Claw's damage is too high for a super that can be looped indefinitely as long as he has meter, since that's primarily the reason for nerfing the move to begin with.

Zero
-
-Level 3 buster startup increased to 10(wasn't this reverted?), hits 9 times; projectile is now 9x1 durability.
Can I also suggest removing the 'combo-breaker' ability of Sogenmu? It feels more like a glitch, since the attacks usually get hit out before the actual active frames, but the shadow continues into active frames. If nothing else, that should be fixed about Sogenmu.

-

Didn't really get to thoroughly read some characters annotations, but this is what I got done, and I won't be able to do any more today so I'll just post what I've done.
 

Sigmaah

Member
I need to play with you guys more. I'm just usually scared to bother you, Guardian, when you're on Netflix. And Sigmaah, Zero himself is extremely intimidating to me and I cry when fighting him.

Dude, anytime you wanna play, just send a message, I'm always down to play marvel with someone! I won't always use Zero : D

ggs guardian! Fun ass matches!
 

Dahbomb

Member
The cr.L/st.L Dante typo has been fix for quite a while. You sure you have the updated annotations?

And, as Zissou said, Ninja Gift M has no OTG properties. I think I suggested giving it OTG properties, but it was never officially added.
I honestly thought this was added in the changelog but looking over it's no where. Going to add that in.


Is this particularly necessary? I don't have much trouble converting off forward airthrows from midscreen with Doom, and my only 'practice' was just watching the likes of Champ do it. I know he has issues converting off super jump height forward airthrows, but I don't think reducing the recovery is going to help with that.
I am inclined to agree that this change isn't necessary. Better Doom players have gotten extremely consistent at getting the air throw conversion which tells me it's more of an execution thing.

I still don't understand this one. Is Ice Breaker M the rolling ice shot? From the 'after an aerial Trick Maneuver' implies it's the jumping ones, which makes no sense because they do cause ground bounces against airborne characters.
If this is true then I will remove it.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I need to play with you guys more. I'm just usually scared to bother you, Guardian, when you're on Netflix. And Sigmaah, Zero himself is extremely intimidating to me and I cry when fighting him.

Aw, man. Don't worry. I'm usually just letting The Office replay or something on Netflix while I'm doing other stuff. Feel free to send a message! It'll never bother me.


ggs guardian! Fun ass matches!

GGs, man! You've got some sick setups. That really helped brush away the cobwebs in a brutal way. :p There were a lot of brainfarts, and I totally forgot how to opening-gambit against Zero. Lots of fun.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Jill – Regarding the point about increasing the damage of MGS, I did some number crunching/testing... doing somersault straight into MGS nets 32 hits out of 40. That's 80% of all possible bullets, and it does 105k at max scaling. If you take that and apply it to 20 hits, that's 16 hits, and it does 96k. Even if all hits managed to hit, it'd do a total of 120k ,whereas the old version would do 132k. If nothing is done about the actual spray, this isn't really a buff.
You should read the updated annotations on Jill. I completely reworded it as I figured this math out a bit before you. The change we implemented wasn't a buff at all so I reworded it.

Does this pertain to on whiff, on successful counter, or both? Should have some clarification, imo.
This is definitely supposed to be on hit, will clarify.


I added a more indepth explanation of the Fatal Claw nerf.
 

Zissou

Member
I'll start proof-reading the character overviews soon, but we have one big thing that needs to be clarified. We have a number of assist versions of moves where we specify them as "tracking." Currently, the only precedent for a tracking assist is vajra, which tracks exactly same as it's point version, retaining all of its properties. In the case of things like Skrull's meteor smash or Dormammu's purification, the point version can only go to one of three screen-relative or character-relative fixed positions (depending on the move).
We need to clarify/decide if "tracking" will mean the nearest of those three fixed positions, or if it will be true tracking, like vajra or energy javelin. If it's true tracking, we should also specify how this tracking works.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Frantic I fixed all of your problems in the annotations. The only things I didn't fix were the following:

*Wesker gaining full piercing on Samurai Low shot:

This is a big balance change and needs to be approved by everyone. I would not mind it especially when most characters get full OTG combos on 2 characters (Wolverine, Zero, Vergil etc).


*Zero combo breaking with Sogenmu:

I would add it in if you can word it properly. I know what you are saying but I want to see it worded it out before I start putting it in.
 
Frantic, I think that you might be reading the thread posts, but those are not updated. The updated version is in the Google doc. So...your reading may have been somewhat outdated:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zolcw8bTvVsl8RKtgpFBhuGmWF3KehdUC1XJzN2HxXs/

Dahbomb, I won't have time to finish reading your character summaries tonight. I would still like to edit them before we send everything out. Are you fine with postponing the send-out for a day?
 

Dahbomb

Member
Yeah we will send them out tomorrow.

But get as many characters edited as you can today.

Frantic your thoughts on the following:

*Phoenix overhead being 19 frame.

*Amaterasu being able to gain meter in Veil of Mist with Dark Harmonizer/Soul Drain/other meter building assist.

*Nemesis being able to life steal with Tentacle moves.


I'll start proof-reading the character overviews soon, but we have one big thing that needs to be clarified. We have a number of assist versions of moves where we specify them as "tracking." Currently, the only precedent for a tracking assist is vajra, which tracks exactly same as it's point version, retaining all of its properties. In the case of things like Skrull's meteor smash or Dormammu's purification, the point version can only go to one of three screen-relative or character-relative fixed positions (depending on the move).
We need to clarify/decide if "tracking" will mean the nearest of those three fixed positions, or if it will be true tracking, like vajra or energy javelin. If it's true tracking, we should also specify how this tracking works.
Here's how I envision the tracking to work for Dorm/Storm (it's true tracking not one of 3 spot pseudo tracking):

*When the assist character comes in and starts up the move, the move is tracked to the opponent's location at this time. If the opponent moves after the start up of the assist then he can effectively dodge the move. If he's mostly stationary at super jump height then he will get hit. Roughly you will have half a second to react to the tracking assist which is very fair.

Meteor Smash will have to work closer to Vajra's tracking as Skrull uses his body. Javelin I believe starts tracking when it hits its peak vertical height.
 

FSLink

Banned
GGs to you FSLink and your many teams. So which one of those teams is your main?

Zero/Dante/Vergil and Zero/Doom/Vergil tend to be my main ones for tourneys. :p (depends on the matchup, I tend to use Dante for Phoenix teams for example)
I'm working on the Hulk/Wright/Doom and trying to get back in practice with the Team Nemo team too.
 

Zissou

Member
I will add in the tracking explanation to the notes.

@Karst- if you edit Dahbomb's character summaries you've given a once over into the annotated patch notes, I will proofread them there to double-check for grammar errors.

I'm a little behind on keeping up with the thread- I should be able to devote some time to it in a couple hours.
 
Zero/Dante/Vergil and Zero/Doom/Vergil tend to be my main ones for tourneys. :p (depends on the matchup, I tend to use Dante for Phoenix teams for example)
I'm working on the Hulk/Wright/Doom and trying to get back in practice with the Team Nemo team too.

Those Zero matches were pure slaughter. and you got perfects too. Ahh...Either way I look forward to going against you again.
 
Yeah we will send them out tomorrow.

But get as many characters edited as you can today.
Sorry man, I am heading to bed now - I get up at 5am for work. We could edit the character explanations in later - the annotations will be an evolving work, I imagine. Otherwise I will take care of them when I get out of work tomorrow evening as best I can.
 
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