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[shaowebb]

lol those notes are never getting sent

Its how I feel. SERIOUSLY. You guys got 2 days till capcom cup as of now...less honestly as they wont get a chance to see them before they have to get setup if you dont get them out tonight or immediately tomorrow morning. Go forth and send them notes.

 

[Zissou]

We should polish what we have, remove stuff that's still be argued about (at least temporarily), and get it sent ASAP. Am I OK to remove the GAF formatting stuff from the google doc?

 

[Dahbomb]

Alright so I am going to edit in my character explanations first thing in the morning (or Zissou can do them now, they are posted 2 pages back). After that I am going to send it in. We just say it isn't finalized but the bulk of it is completed anyway.

I would however have to remove the controversial stuff until they are fully agreed upon, as in commented by on all 4 members. I don't want to be in a position where something is kept in that we decided to take out a bit later and someone brings it up to which we have to give the stock reply of "oh that isn't supposed to be in there it got vetoed out".

Also the document needs to be formatted because it has all the specific tags. How do I do that?

And who is in charge of sending it? I don't have a Twitter account.

 

[Professor Beef]

And who is in charge of sending it? I don't have a Twitter account.

L
M
A
O

 

[shaowebb]

And who is in charge of sending it? I don't have a Twitter account.

 

[Karsticles]

Alright so I am going to edit in my character explanations first thing in the morning (or Zissou can do them now, they are posted 2 pages back). After that I am going to send it in. We just say it isn't finalized but the bulk of it is completed anyway.

I would however have to remove the controversial stuff until they are fully agreed upon, as in commented by on all 4 members. I don't want to be in a position where something is kept in that we decided to take out a bit later and someone brings it up to which we have to give the stock reply of "oh that isn't supposed to be in there it got vetoed out".

Also the document needs to be formatted because it has all the specific tags. How do I do that?

And who is in charge of sending it? I don't have a Twitter account.

I am not okay with a lot of your character explanations. Do not edit them in. It is not okay for you to drop a huge amount of stuff to proofread in the middle of the week and say it needs to be done then. That is not how this works.

Zissou and Frantic have not looked them over either. Do not send out something that no one has read over. I gave everyone weeks for the annotations. Any serious problems have been taken care of.

I do endorse you removing the Phoenix overhead change and Nemesis life steal. Be sure to remove the changes from both documents. Anything else suddenly became "controversial" because you just brought it up again. Nonsense. This is why I was hesitant to give you editing powers.

Zissou, you are welcome to remove the GAF formatting tags. Just please format them as the tags suggest as you go through the document.

Also, fuck the people who did jack shit to help this happen and are taunting us for working hard. Especially Beef and his shitty internet he always wants to play on.

I don't know what is with this artificial rush. If we send it out Friday morning, who gives a shit? What boat are we missing here? It makes so much more sense to give this one more day of hard work than to send it out 9/10ths baked with grammatical errors and stuff. It is absolutely stupid to take all of our hard work and send this out without it finished just because of an artificial deadline. That is just throwing our efforts away. We, and our ideas, deserve more than that.

I will finish editing the character intros tomorrow when I get home from work. Right now they are riddled with grammatical errors and questionable statements.

Just give it one more day so we can send it out with pride instead of patching it together in panic afterward. All agreed?

Edit: I will send it all out. Just PM me the list of Twitter accounts.

Edit2: Oh yeah, and the new patch intro I wrote has a few missing pieces of information I left in brackets. If you guys know the numbers for those, please fill them in.

 

[shaowebb]

So long as it gets done Im cool. Its gone on for a long while and I've only popped by to see if it would ever finish. I need the closure.

 

[Sigmaah]

I am not okay with a lot of your character explanations. Do not edit them in. It is not okay for you to drop a huge amount of stuff to proofread in the middle of the week and say it needs to be done then. That is not how this works.

Zissou and Frantic have not looked them over either. Do not send out something that no one has read over. I gave everyone weeks for the annotations. Any serious problems have been taken care of.

I do endorse you removing the Phoenix overhead change and Nemesis life steal. Be sure to remove the changes from both documents. Anything else suddenly became "controversial" because you just brought it up again. Nonsense. This is why I was hesitant to give you editing powers.

Zissou, you are welcome to remove the GAF formatting tags. Just please format them as the tags suggest as you go through the document.

Also, fuck the people who did jack shit to help this happen and are taunting us for working hard. Especially Beef and his shitty internet he always wants to play on.

I don't know what is with this artificial rush. If we send it out Friday morning, who gives a shit? What boat are we missing here? It makes so much more sense to give this one more day of hard work than to send it out 9/10ths baked with grammatical errors and stuff. It is absolutely stupid to take all of our hard work and send this out without it finished just because of an artificial deadline. That is just throwing our efforts away. We, and our ideas, deserve more than that.

I will finish editing the character intros tomorrow when I get home from work. Right now they are riddled with grammatical errors and questionable statements.

Just give it one more day so we can send it out with pride instead of patching it together in panic afterward. All agreed?

Edit: I will send it all out. Just PM me the list of Twitter accounts.

YOOOO KARST PUTTING NIGGAS ON BLAST!!! YOOOOOO!!!!!!

I feel you though, send it with perfection (near perfection at most) but Friday should be the latest. Y'all worked hard as fuck <3

 

[Professor Beef]

Who is taunting you for working hard? I'm laughing because of shit like this:

And who is in charge of sending it? I don't have a Twitter account.

making you look unprofessional as fuck.

 

[Karsticles]

Who is taunting you for working hard? I'm laughing because of shit like this:

making you look unprofessional as fuck.

Protip: we aren't professionals. No one pays us. We are a handful of guys on the internet trying to do something with passion. I have no illusions about what we are doing here.

And don't pretend you do something besides sit on the sidelines snickering like the kid who never does his homework whenever someone makes a mistake. That is basically you as a poster.

 

[Zissou]

So the basic plan for the few remaining things is this:

-In a little while (once I get home from work in a couple of hours), I will remove the GAF formatting and replace it with the appropriate formatting in google docs.

-Karst gets up in the morning, finishes the character summary editing, and he copy/pastes them into the google doc.

-I do a once over for grammar/wording issues once the above is completed.

-Everybody has a little time to do a final once over and check for errors or whatever.

-Karst tweets it out to the agreed-upon list of people on Friday morning (U.S. central time, no?)

-I drink a beer to celebrate, since it will be Friday night in my time zone

Am I missing anything?

 

[TWILT]

Good games Beef. T'was fun.

I have no idea what to do against a good Joe lol. My Wesker was near useless.

 

[Karsticles]

So the basic plan for the few remaining things is this:

-In a little while (once I get home from work in a couple of hours), I will remove the GAF formatting and replace it with the appropriate formatting in google docs.

-Karst gets up in the morning, finishes the character summary editing, and he copy/pastes them into the google doc.

-I do a once over for grammar/wording issues once the above is completed.

-Everybody has a little time to do a final once over and check for errors or whatever.

-Karst tweets it out to the agreed-upon list of people on Friday morning (U.S. central time, no?)

-I drink a beer to celebrate, since it will be Friday night in my time zone

Am I missing anything?

Sounds good, but I just want to clarify that I will be doing character summary edits tomorrow after work for the most part. I don't have any time off at work at all, unfortunately. I will crank them out quickly, though.

I am on CMT.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I noticed lots of people in this thread very rarely TAC, and attempt to counter even less until about 10 games in. Only God's Beard makes an attempt on the first game, and then he started using the Secret Tech.

I never TAC.... like ever, unless I'm fighting Phoenix cause I know I get free down TACs. I don't feel like taking the risk and having my combos broken.

And I shouldn't be saying this but I never defend any direction except the side. My meter is too valuable to me. There's only rare occasions when I defend another direction.

 

[Professor Beef]

GGs Twilt. Bah gawd that Dante. And yeah, Wesker isn't too huge a threat since I can just zone him out.

Protip: we aren't professionals.

Then stop pretending you are. From the beginning, you've all said that you wanted this to look as good and presentable as possible, and now that you're at the finish line everyone involved is scrambling around like chickens with their heads cut off. Yes, I'm going to laugh at that because I find that shit hilarious. Despite all the jokes I've cracked (and there were a lot lol) I respect this entire project. Don't go fumbling it up *now* of all times. You all should've had this thing wrapped in a pretty red bow waiting to be unraveled by now, not trying to make last-minute changes and finding out who has a Twitter account.

And don't pretend you do something besides sit on the sidelines snickering like the kid who never does his homework whenever someone makes a mistake. That is basically you as a poster.

...So? I post in the FGC threads so I can turn my brain off; I never pretended otherwise.

 

[Dahbomb]

Wait there are TWO documents? This is getting complicated.

I didn't plan to add in the character explanation until AT LEAST one person had proof read it. Right now only the ones that Karst edit are in the actual patch log, the rest are being looked over.

As far as the controversial stuff, the only controversial thing that I brought up was the Phoenix overhead change and that was long before the annotation part of the change list. The other stuff was brought up by the other members (like the VoM, life steal, Hawkeye change and Chris Shotgun). I read over these things and I agreed with them, so when at least two people agree that something is not right then it definitely qualifies as "controversial".

The stuff that I actually changed was the following:

*Chris' Shotgun from 15 to 20 (3 people said it was fine, 4th person no answer)

*Nemesis life steal mechanic removed (it honestly was never voted in)

*Hawkeye Ice Shot on aerial opponents. This one I removed because apparently this is not an actual issue and the move already works as the patch indicated hence why it was removed. Unless someone shows evidence of this being an issue its not going in the patch.

*Reworked the explanation on Jill's MSG hyper because the "buff" we gave wasn't changing anything.

*I added that Deadpool's Grenade be OTG. It was either that or change his whole assist section because the assist section made comments about it being an OTG move when it wasn't listed in the character changelog. That was a legitimate error picked up by Frantic that needed to be rectified immediately.

*I moved the explanation of OTG assists from Akuma's section to the general assist section right below CC assists. Both Frantic and Zissou made a comment about it and I agreed, it needed to be in the general section.

*Made additions to Fatal Claw because the explanation wasn't giving the whole explanation.

*Mostly made grammar/typoe fixes as suggested by other members.

 

[Zissou]

I don't think not having decided who is going to tweet out the finished thing 2 months in advance is "unprofessional." I just kind of figured everybody had a twitter account and the actual tweeting of it was a pretty trivial thing that any one of us could do.

It's also certainly an additional burden that we're communicating asynchronously, made even worse by the fact that I live on the opposite side of the globe from pretty everybody on marvel-GAF.

When this finally does go out, I expect heavy backlash from places like SRK if they decide to pay any attention to it. Fools will find what they perceive to be the craziest buff or nerf they can find and cite it repeatedly while saying our patch suggestions are terrible. My guess is they'll fixate on Morrigan buffs and stuff like tracking meteor smash assist. We'll see if I'm right soon enough!

 

[Professor Beef]

When this finally does go out, I expect heavy backlash from places like SRK if they decide to pay any attention to it. Fools will find what they perceive to be the craziest buff or nerf they can find and cite it repeatedly while saying our patch suggestions are terrible.

So like most SRK discussion, then?

 

[Dahbomb]

"Vector Drain air OK"

OMG Morrigan gets an aerial command grab like Thor.... This patch is ASS!

- random SRK member

And yea the Twitter thing is trivial. It didn't need to get laughed over and it didn't need a strong reaction from Karst either. Plenty of people in the FGW have active Twitters who can send it to people they are already following.

As long as the patch gets done by Friday its good. I made an "artificial" deadline so the members can get working hard because before we would go a week without any real progress. And guess what, the idea worked we got a lot of work done today.

 

[Zissou]

So like most SRK discussion, then?

Haha, more or less.

There are smart people there and some very helpful ones too (at least in the character sub-forums). I'm a member there and post there occasionally, but I'm sure a few SRKers will be salty that they got beaten to the punch of making something complete in a semi-organized fashion patch-wise. They would be supremely salty if the marvel patch pipe dream magically becomes reality (super unlikely) and the GAF marvel patch list gets more attention paid to it than SRK's balance suggestions because SRK theory fighters didn't get organized and got beaten to the punch. Or maybe they won't even be aware our theory patch's existence, haha.

 

[Frantic]

You sure you have the updated annotations?

I just copy-pasted my old(weeks old) change list for the sake of having all my suggestions in one place. I figured they'd already been changed, but I threw them in there in case they hadn't(I didn't bother checking, lol).

Frantic your thoughts on the following:

*Phoenix overhead being 19 frame.

I can go either way with this. It's not like there aren't faster overheads in the game, and we also made Phoenix Wright's overhead 19 frames as well(though he probably needs it more than Jean).

*Amaterasu being able to gain meter in Veil of Mist with Dark Harmonizer/Soul Drain/other meter building assist.

I'm fine with it. Just as long as there's no normal meter gain for tagged in characters.

*Nemesis being able to life steal with Tentacle moves.

Definitely a no on Deadly Reach. He uses them far too often for that to be a good idea.

*Zero combo breaking with Sogenmu:

I would add it in if you can word it properly. I know what you are saying but I want to see it worded it out before I start putting it in.

I would say something along the lines of "Sogenmu's shadow now no longer has any active frames if Zero is hit during the startup or active frames of a move." This would prevent any sort of whiff punish combo-breakers, as well as the startup into active frame combo-breakers.

And I'm on board with Chris' shotgun being 20 frames over 15. 15 is a bit too fast, especially if you count the jumping one.

 

[Karsticles]

Wait there are TWO documents? This is getting complicated.

I didn't plan to add in the character explanation until AT LEAST one person had proof read it. Right now only the ones that Karst edit are in the actual patch log, the rest are being looked over.

As far as the controversial stuff, the only controversial thing that I brought up was the Phoenix overhead change and that was long before the annotation part of the change list. The other stuff was brought up by the other members (like the VoM, life steal, Hawkeye change and Chris Shotgun). I read over these things and I agreed with them, so when at least two people agree that something is not right then it definitely qualifies as "controversial".

The stuff that I actually changed was the following:

*Chris' Shotgun from 15 to 20 (3 people said it was fine, 4th person no answer)

*Nemesis life steal mechanic removed (it honestly was never voted in)

*Hawkeye Ice Shot on aerial opponents. This one I removed because apparently this is not an actual issue and the move already works as the patch indicated hence why it was removed. Unless someone shows evidence of this being an issue its not going in the patch.

*Reworked the explanation on Jill's MSG hyper because the "buff" we gave wasn't changing anything.

*I added that Deadpool's Grenade be OTG. It was either that or change his whole assist section because the assist section made comments about it being an OTG move when it wasn't listed in the character changelog. That was a legitimate error picked up by Frantic that needed to be rectified immediately.

*I moved the explanation of OTG assists from Akuma's section to the general assist section right below CC assists. Both Frantic and Zissou made a comment about it and I agreed, it needed to be in the general section.

*Made additions to Fatal Claw because the explanation wasn't giving the whole explanation.

*Mostly made grammar/typoe fixes as suggested by other members.

Two documents as in the annotated list and the basic patch list.

I endorse you making all of those changes.

I will look over everything tonight.

 

[Zissou]

Two documents as in the annotated list and the basic patch list.

I endorse you making all of those changes.

I will look over everything tonight.

I am part way through reformatting the bold/italic/underline stuff for google docs, and I have proofread the character summaries that have been added in to the annotated patch list. I will do the the rest when I wake up.

The basic patch list is out of date- I know I have edited grammar mistakes in the actual changes in the annotated list, but they have not been changed yet in the basic patch list. I think it would be best to wait until the annotated list is finalized, and then make a copy of that document, delete the annotations, and make that the basic patch list (rather than try to update both simultaneously as issues are found). Perhaps it would even be better to release the annotated version exclusively, since I think a lot of unwarranted criticism could be averted if people have to read the annotations rather than reading the changes w/o even having a chance to read the reasoning.

 

[Tirael]

I'm sure Capcom is involved heavily in setting up for Capcom Cup. Getting the patch notes out to them on the eve of the battle wouldn't help much, they'll be busy. And this close, every announcement they have is sure to be already planned and locked down. Maybe we should wait until after...? Just a thought.

 

[Karsticles]

Deadpool

Deadpool is a strong and various character who is generally unpicked because he has weak team support ability. Most importantly, his level 3 hyper is a dud: it is essentially a joke hyper. We also improved some of his special moves to improve his neutral, and made improvements to some of his normals for better hit confirmations. Finally, one of the most important changes that we gave him is the swapping of his assist from Trigger Happy H to Trigger Happy L. This would give him an excellent assist, and would make Deadpool worth picking as a support character thanks to his new level 1 counter hyper and now strong assist option. We understand that Deadpool's Trigger Happy L was previously considered too strong to be an assist in this game, but we do not see how it is more powerful than Unibeam or Plasma Beam.

Doctor Doom

Doctor Doom is the most played character in UMvC3 by a huge margin, and he also enjoys the highest tournament win record. Some claim that he is in fact the #1 character in the game, and while that is up to debate, there is no doubt that he is the best support character in the game. His support value is so strong that players can random select two characters from the roster, pick Doom for the third, and that team becomes surprisingly functional. While there isn't really anything wrong with that, the problem comes when Doom becomes a no-brainer pick over every other support character, and thus we feel his support value needs fine tuning. Most importantly, his Hidden Missiles and Plasma Beam needed to be toned down. We also feel that his Foot Dive needs to have a weaker trade value, but the move is otherwise fair – you know when it is coming, and it is highly unsafe on block if Doom air dashed before using it. We also wanted to encourage players to use more difficult Dr. Doom combos by toning his damage down, and felt that he needed a general damage increase, which will in turn also reduce his high meter gain during combos. Finally, we improved Doom slightly as a point character in exchange for his support nerfs, and especially expect these changes to help against heavy zoners, which Doom is weakest against.

Dormammu

Dormammu is a very strong character with a good balance of strengths and weaknesses in his point play. While his suggested list looks like a lot of buffs, most of the changes were made so that his less useless Liberation moves are made more useful, and with Hidden Missiles nerfed he will have to work harder anyway. The only real problem with Dormammu as a point character is that, like Doom, he gets a lot of damage from easy mode combos. We feel that Dormmamu players should be encouraged to use his Dark Matter x Mass Change combo extensions instead of the typical ABC combos even top Dormammu players use in most matches. We also suggest that the low hitting property on the Flame Carpet be removed as part of the universal change to remove "single player" game play elements, as players can set up Flame carpet on incoming to create an unblockable situation. The big changes however include his assists. Dormammu is in the unique situation in this game where he needs to be second or third on the team to do well in most matchups, and he is extremely strong when set up, but he has no worthwhile assist options. We feel Dormmamu is an excellent candidate for a tracking anti-air assist (Purification), which will allow him to function as the Blackheart replacement that he was meant to be.

Dr Strange

Dr Strange is a character who is mostly picked for his support value; his point value is questionable, since no one seems to have truly mastered what he offers, yet no one has really shown him to offer anything of value on point. This is because he has a wide variety of issues that result in him getting mauled in the neutral by rushdown characters. His inability to create space and pressure with a good block string are key weaknesses that have been to be addressed. Flame of the Faltine loops were toned down, as they provide an absurd amount of damage and meter gain even at max scaling. The loops inflate damage to a point where characters can get kills off of a throw.

Felicia

Felicia is one of the characters in the game that suffers hard from character archetype syndrome. That is to say she suffers from the fact that there is another character like her who just does what she does, but better. We feel that the template is there for a great rushdown character, but she is lacking that edge to push her over the top because her plan is linear, and it is not strong enough. Most of our changes aim to make her moves more useful and various in application. Special-cancelable Cat and Mouse is undoubtedly her biggest buff, and we think this is a key change to making her a fun, interesting, and effective character.

Firebrand

Firebrand is a difficult character to fix/change, and he was one of the last characters we finished in our first round of changes. In his current state, he is a very powerful gimmick character that allows players to win off of a pure "single player" unblockable. Without this gimmick, he would not be worth picking. While it’s easy to suggest a simple damage boost for Firebrand, we feel that is a lazy change, and we would rather see improvements in his neutral game and his value as a support character. We definitely want the unblockable removed, but we want the removal of the unblockable to come with proper wide sweeping buffs to compensate and make him into a complete character. He is still among the weaker support characters in our patch, as his moveset simply does not allow for strong assist options. Hell Spitfire H will likely be his assist of choice now that it OTGs consistently and provides mediocre lockdown.

Frank West

Frank West is an extremely difficult character to balance because he needs to “level up” to be effective, but he is very easy to level up compared to other, similar characters like Phoenix and Wright. It is undeniable that Frank West LVL4 is a team killer and shuts down a wide portion of the cast. We are fine with this type of character being in the game, however if there are to be TAC rework/changes that guarantee levels for Frank West after a point character connects a hit, his “level up” states need fine tuning. In addition, we feel that the chip damage of his normals, and the invincibility on his Tools of Survival hyper when Frank is leveled up, are a bit gross and need to be reduced. To compensate, we buffed his more useless moves and provided more assist options aside from Shopping Cart.
Ultimately the strength of Frank is the ability of a team to get him his required levels. If it's too easy to get Frank leveled up, he is too strong, and vice versa. It is very hard to achieve this balance, which is why we didn't suggest any changes to his level up system. It seemed better to tune the benefits of his powered-up states.

I found some time before work to crank a few more out.

 

[onionfrog]

Deadpool

Deadpool is a strong and varied character who is generally unpicked because he has weak team support ability. Most importantly, his level 3 hyper is a dud: it is essentially a joke hyper. We also improved some of his special moves to improve his neutral, and made improvements to some of his normals for better hit confirmations. Finally, one of the most important changes that we gave him is the swapping of his assist from Trigger Happy H to Trigger Happy L. This would give him an excellent assist, and would make Deadpool worth picking as a support character thanks to his new level 1 counter hyper and now strong assist options. We understand that Deadpool's Trigger Happy L was previously considered too strong to be an assist in this game, but we do not see how it is more powerful than Unibeam or Plasma Beam.

Changes in bold. I think you could take out the part I crossed out since it doesn't really add anything to the summary.

 

[Dahbomb]

I still don't understand the difference between basic patch list and annotated list. I honestly feel we should just release the whole thing as the annotated list. The explanations are great and if we just present a basic patch list, people are going to read some of them, not understand the context and then complain without ever reading the annotations.

Going to add these new character explanations in and going to remove the Phoenix overhead change now that we have all opinions on the matter. Going to keep the VoM change.

Perhaps it would even be better to release the annotated version exclusively, since I think a lot of unwarranted criticism could be averted if people have to read the annotations rather than reading the changes w/o even having a chance to read the reasoning.

I agree with this. While Zissou is resting, I will make the tag changes got some free time from work.

And HOLY SHIT we have reached 100 pages!

 

[Tirael]

Perhaps it would even be better to release the annotated version exclusively

I agree completely, but I see one possible issue with this. With it being over a hundred pages now, people are just going to go "tl;dr", and not give it fair shot. But that's the price we pay for wanting to be as clear as possible.

 

[Karsticles]

My issue with only sending an annotated patch list out is that some people might want a simple, skim-able version. The annotated list is all spread out, and it's hard to get a look at all the changes in one eye-glance. Now, we could make the annotated list our main list, and then have the basic linked to for skimmed viewing, but I don't think we should entirely get rid of it.

A lot of people will not read the patch notes when they are over 100 pages. Simple fact, and we want to have an option to avoid that IMO.

 

[onionfrog]

We should release the shorter notes as well.

The annotations are great, but most people will just tl:dr and ignore the 100+ page list.

Hell, in many places, people tl:dr forum posts that are more than a few sentences.

 

[TheAnvil]

The most sensible thing to do is to release the shortlist at the start, and then go into more detail with individual writeups after. The shortlist would just have the buffs/nerfs with no explanations.

Realeasing it as one, but people who only want the gist can just read the first part.

 

[Tirael]

Haha, you guys are saying exactly what I said, but in different words.

 

[Ghazi]

I'm sure Capcom is involved heavily in setting up for Capcom Cup. Getting the patch notes out to them on the eve of the battle wouldn't help much, they'll be busy. And this close, every announcement they have is sure to be already planned and locked down. Maybe we should wait until after...? Just a thought.

I don't think so, having it out by then will probably garner a lot of attention from players there and people will discuss it, even more important is the possibility that someone like yipes or anyone really will mention it directly to combo fiend or whoever is there representing capcom. Which would put it in the hands of the right people from there. Even more so, at the height/hype of a marvel tournament either about to happen, happening, or just happened will give more interest to people in this kind of thing as well.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I respect the patch discussion but also agree with Beef (albeit in a less abrasive way); Make it easy/fun to read and know that a lot of developers love getting stuff like this but most do not act on these types of documents but do lead to fun discussions around the office.

Karst synopsis of each character is fun to read and DahBomb always is strong in theory fighter. Really thought it would lose steam but I love reading the thread.

That said, I need to play this game more before the next one comes out

Spoiler

its not happening guys.

 

[Tirael]

I don't think so, having it out by then will probably garner a lot of attention from players there and people will discuss it, even more important is the possibility that someone like yipes or anyone really will mention it directly to combo fiend or whoever is there representing capcom. Which would put it in the hands of the right people from there. Even more so, at the height/hype of a marvel tournament either about to happen, happening, or just happened will give more interest to people in this kind of thing as well.

I didn't think about that, you're absolutely right. I was thinking more about the employees and less about the fans. But how could I forget about the people who made this happen?

That said, I need to play this game more before the next one comes out

Spoiler

its not happening guys.

Spoiler

: (

 

[Dahbomb]

Alright we will have both an annotated list and a TL;DR patch list only. The annotated list will be put up first though.

I have completed the tag changes and the bold/italics changes in the document. In addition, I made some changes for better readability, consistency and some information was missing that I filled in. The following stuff I changed:

*Moved all the changes related to assists in the character patch changes towards the end of the lists. It makes much more sense this way and it makes going back and forth easier. Even I had trouble reading the assist section then going back to the exact move which was changed, this way they are all within the same spot so minimal scrolling is required.

*Jill's change on Sickle Kick assist was missing so I added it in. I recall that it was voted in but never added to the annotations.

*Added explanations for Rocket Raccoon and Iron Man assist changes as there wasn't any explanation for those sections.

*Consolidated all the Inferno changes in one change and added explanation as to why we made it safer.

*Chris' Flamethrower upper body invincibility removed because we agreed that we wanted longer duration over invincibility.

*Changed some + and - to * because they included both buffs and nerfs.

*Added the X23 Neck Slice assist version change where it is projectile invulnerable. This only applies to the assist version. I believe we agreed upon this but forgot to add it in.

*Changed the characters who have had health changes to say "base health changed by X" amount. This is for consistency sake and we want to avoid putting out a number because that number is not an accurate representation of the character's actual health in this version. Changing base health allows the health percentage buff to be applied as well so it remains a more accurate statement.


Damn this patch list is so huge that even the patch list needs patch changes!

The Buster startup is a slight nerf to Zero&#8217;s command dash canceled into a Buster shot, which is a Berserker Slash-like mix-up that is also safe and leads to more pressure. The maneuver is unsafe, however, and we want to give players a slightly stronger opportunity to respond to the cross-up.

This explanation didn't make sense to me. In the first sentence you said the mix up is safe on block and leads to more pressure (which is true) but in the second you said the maneuver is unsafe which is untrue. Do you mean that the maneuever is unsafe on START UP because you can tag them during the command dash + new Buster start up? If so that is not clearly stated in this sentence and needs to be reworded.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Who is taunting you for working hard? I'm laughing because of shit like this:

making you look unprofessional as fuck.

Dude C'mon now, these guys are just doing this in their free time and for fun. They are only rushing now because they where almost finished anyway and just decided to send them to various people before Capcom Cup.

 

[enzo_gt]

Eh, I don't have a trillion followers on Twitter or anything but if you guys need someone to tweet it out to all those people, I can help.

EDIT: Not sure why Beef is in here starting shit for no reason.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

My issue with only sending an annotated patch list out is that some people might want a simple, skim-able version. The annotated list is all spread out, and it's hard to get a look at all the changes in one eye-glance. Now, we could make the annotated list our main list, and then have the basic linked to for skimmed viewing, but I don't think we should entirely get rid of it.

A lot of people will not read the patch notes when they are over 100 pages. Simple fact, and we want to have an option to avoid that IMO.

I know personally that I would want to see a list of changes and then read the reasoning behind them.

I think that's how most folk would be.

Eh, I don't have a trillion followers on Twitter or anything but if you guys need someone to tweet it out to all those people, I can help.

EDIT: Not sure why Beef is in here starting shit for no reason.

Well his name is Beef....

Just doing his job.

 

[Azure J]

I could RT anything you guys finish up if you need more ile hans with twitter accounts. I feel like I should do something even if I kinda moved away from Marvel in the last few months.

 

[Karsticles]

Alright we will have both an annotated list and a TL;DR patch list only. The annotated list will be put up first though.

I have completed the tag changes and the bold/italics changes in the document. In addition, I made some changes for better readability, consistency and some information was missing that I filled in. The following stuff I changed:

*Moved all the changes related to assists in the character patch changes towards the end of the lists. It makes much more sense this way and it makes going back and forth easier. Even I had trouble reading the assist section then going back to the exact move which was changed, this way they are all within the same spot so minimal scrolling is required.

*Jill's change on Sickle Kick assist was missing so I added it in. I recall that it was voted in but never added to the annotations.

*Added explanations for Rocket Raccoon and Iron Man assist changes as there wasn't any explanation for those sections.

*Consolidated all the Inferno changes in one change and added explanation as to why we made it safer.

*Chris' Flamethrower upper body invincibility removed because we agreed that we wanted longer duration over invincibility.

*Changed some + and - to * because they included both buffs and nerfs.

*Added the X23 Neck Slice assist version change where it is projectile invulnerable. This only applies to the assist version. I believe we agreed upon this but forgot to add it in.

*Changed the characters who have had health changes to say "base health changed by X" amount. This is for consistency sake and we want to avoid putting out a number because that number is not an accurate representation of the character's actual health in this version. Changing base health allows the health percentage buff to be applied as well so it remains a more accurate statement.


Damn this patch list is so huge that even the patch list needs patch changes!

Thank you! Did you make the changes to both patch lists? I think the worst thing we could do is have two lists that don't agree with each other.

This explanation didn't make sense to me. In the first sentence you said the mix up is safe on block and leads to more pressure (which is true) but in the second you said the maneuver is unsafe which is untrue. Do you mean that the maneuever is unsafe on START UP because you can tag them during the command dash + new Buster start up? If so that is not clearly stated in this sentence and needs to be reworded.

Let me clarify: the command dash is unsafe (you can throw it if Zero has no assist), but the buster mix-up is safe because of buster's frame data.

I could RT anything you guys finish up if you need more ile hans with twitter accounts. I feel like I should do something even if I kinda moved away from Marvel in the last few months.

Eh, I don't have a trillion followers on Twitter or anything but if you guys need someone to tweet it out to all those people, I can help.

EDIT: Not sure why Beef is in here starting shit for no reason.

Anyone is welcome to RT once I send it all out tomorrow.

 

[Zissou]

I'm positive that changes have been made to the annotated list w/o being done on the non-annotated list. We should focus on finishing up the annotated list, and then make a copy of it and delete the annotations and make that basic list, rather than trying to compare the existing two to find disparities.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm positive that changes have been made to the annotated list w/o being done on the non-annotated list. We should focus on finishing up the annotated list, and then make a copy of it and delete the annotations and make that basic list, rather than trying to compare the existing two to find disparities.

Smart. Would you mind taking care of that, since I am editing character summaries?

Ghost Rider

Ghost Rider frequently earns the title of “worst character in the game”, right next to Hsien-ko, Tron Bonne, She-Hulk, and Phoenix Wright. His weaknesses are numerous, and his strengths are few. Ghost Rider was designed to excel in lockdown and harassment, but he can’t actually harass players because he has no solid chip offering. He has to hope for a j.S instant overhead (which only combos with an assist’s help) to connect or a c.H. These two options are not enough. A character like Ghost Rider needs to deal chip damage on his normals to force players to feel desperation in the face of his poor mix-up game. Right now, there is nothing stopping players from simply blocking all of Ghost Rider's normals until they find an opening. Most of Ghost Rider's chip damage comes from the assists he uses; his combo damage is mediocre. He also has trouble converting off of throws despite having no other strong defensive option, his assist calls cannot be protected unless the opponent is in blockstun, and his movement is abysmal. We have fixed all of these aspects of the character, and we are confident that he will be a strong character choice.

Haggar

Haggar is the extreme version of the grappler in Marvel. It’s hard to get in with him but when successful he makes it hurt. Haggar is a strong point character, especially against point characters but in certain matchups it is a hopeless cause. We want this aspect of the character to be improved the most so that he doesn't have a myriad of 9-1 match ups. Every player has witnesses solo Haggar flail about as he is slowly chipped down by characters with good harassment tools. We suggested making his roll a way for him to actually get in and bypass projectiles; this seems to be the intention behind the move, but in practice it is never used. We improved his LVL3 improved so that he can self-combo after it. We also improved Haggar Press to ensure he has a way to convert off of his solo throws, which is currently not possible. Other options aside from Double Lariat were added for his assists. We actually expect that c.H would become a frequently used assist against chip-based teams.

Hawkeye

Hawkeye is primarily trapped in a linear keepaway role because his safe options are so limited. The big change we made is safer Trick Maneuvers so he now has an additional safe mobility tool. Jack Rose was also improved because in Hawkeye’s current state, he is largely a flowchart character. Allowing Jack Rose to be targetable adds another level of strategy to his keepaway game, and adds a meta goal. Most of his other changes are fixes, and we would really like to see Gimlet become harder to dodge. For an archer who never misses, it is a shame many characters can simply duck under the projectile.

Hsien Ko

Hsien-ko is the butt of many jokes. Even Seth Killian, charged with helping to balance Ultimate MvC3, said “Uh oh, that’s not good” when she was selected at a location test site. She needs an overhaul – small changes will not cut it with this jiang shi. She has hybrid tools, but none of them are good. Instant overheads, but no mobility to actually close the gap. Gongs to lock out keepaway characters, but the weakest projectiles in the game to actually hit them with. We improved everything with her character to make her a true night terror. Especially, everything about her was made to be faster: air dashes, ground dashes, moves and the addition of tools like being able to cancel her Senpu Bu like in the Darkstalkers games. We also revamped her item throw system because it's a purely random gimmick that at times hurts Hsien-ko more than it helps her. Nothing in a competitive game should be random. Random is the essence of bad. With these changes, someone besides a die hard fan might pick her.

Hulk

Hulk is the ultimate armored character in the game, and is generally good at what he does. He doesn't need a lot of changes but it would really help if he got a proper attack/crouch cancellable dash to help him move around easier. A huge, hulking (har har) heavy who cannot move safely without jumping is going to get mauled once he is pushed out, and that’s exactly what happens to Hulk. He is a monster so long as he is in your face, but one mistake usually spells his slow, agonizing, and chip-filled end. We improved Gamma Quake because right now the move has no use. It is supposed to make Gamma Charge safe, but Hulk can be hit by animation hypers before the rocks fall – no one uses it outside of Wesker THCs, and even that is a rare combination. In exchange for making him less of a one-trick pony, we toned his damage down. We still want Hulk to smash, but maybe not as hard.

While not listed, we also considered giving Hulk an X-Factor speed bonus.

Iron Fist

Iron Fist gets dumped on a lot, but it is primarily for his point play. His support abilities are pretty sound. However, on point he's a rushdown character with limited means of opening someone up, limited means of applying pressure, and limited means of closing gaps. The only two good things about him are his Rising Fang assist and his damage output. To help him close gaps, especially against keepaway characters, Rising Fang is now usable without previous rekka inputs. Wall of Kun Lun will help with his pressure game, since it is armored. Rising Fang was made air OK to help cover his poor matchups, as he has no aerial maneuver options at all presently. Most of Iron Fist's other changes are largely for parity with other rushdown characters, like having a fast low, being able to properly combo off of throws, and getting strong combos off of his overhead, which is his only mix-up tool.

Iron Man

Iron Man could be a good character, and he has great assists, but he has horrendous speed. Even his ground mobility is bad. If Iron Man could get only one change to make him more usable, it would be a speed boost. Beyond that, he needs a safer Proton Cannon so he can properly serve his typical role as a support character. Right now there is no way to DHC him in safely, which is odd for his team role. We expect that our changes will keep Iron Man a spacing-oriented character, but he will now actually do a good job of it, making him competition for Dr. Doom in the beam arena finally.

 

[Zissou]

Smart. Would you mind taking care of that, since I am editing character summaries?

Yeah, no problem.

 

[Dahbomb]

Thank you! Did you make the changes to both patch lists? I think the worst thing we could do is have two lists that don't agree with each other.

I am making all changes to the annotations list and when that's complete I will just copy the lists into the other document so it becomes the updated patch list.

I'm positive that changes have been made to the annotated list w/o being done on the non-annotated list. We should focus on finishing up the annotated list, and then make a copy of it and delete the annotations and make that basic list, rather than trying to compare the existing two to find disparities.

Yeah that's what I am doing, it's way easier this way.

 

[Professor Beef]

Well his name is Beef....

Just doing his job.

I didn't even get "Beef" from that definition of the word!

 

[Karsticles]

Driving home from work now - I will continue in about an hour.

Jill

Jill arguably has the best mix ups in the game. No one else can boast a 5-way mix-up in the neutral, when two characters are face-to-face. Unfortunately, this is about all she has to offer, and she suffers from character archetype syndrome. We improved Arrow Kick to help her get in, and we made Mad Beast cost one meter. We, as a collective playing community, have actually yet to see anyone make Mad Beast seem like it is worth three bars. Its sole danger is in chipping characters out through repeated Arrow Kicks that get crouch-canceled. In most cases it is a waste of 3 bars, and more often than not she simply gets hit thanks to the install hyper locking out her ability to block. Her aerial approaches were improved through air OK Arrow Kick, and we actually moved her mix-ups up another level to make her payoff worthwhile for her approach struggle. We improved her assists slightly, but they still leave something to be desired &#8211; like Firebrand, the table is a little thin on options.

Magneto

Magneto is possibly the most versatile character in the game. When Niitsuma was asked why Spider-man was such a mediocre character at Evo, he responded that Spider-man is a &#8220;point character&#8221;. The follow-up question that never happened, but that everyone was thinking, was &#8220;What about characters like Magneto?&#8221; Magneto can play keepaway, rush, he has excellent speed and mobility, his damage and meter gain is high, his hypers are excellent and versatile, and he has a fantastic assist. What is the downside of this character? To our knowledge, it is only that most people do not have the execution necessary to play him well. That being said, this is not a bad thing. Magneto is the ideal, like Dante. He can play any spot on a team, he works well with a lot of characters, and he is really fun to play. The only real issue we had with Magneto was the ability for Magnetic Blast to completely shut down a lot of characters; we toned it down a bit.

MODOK

M.O.D.O.K. is a fantastic character that we hope to see more of. We actually think the only reason he is not used often is his hideous visage. People tend to like playing cool-looking characters, and M.O.D.O.K&#8230;isn&#8217;t. The only real cheap aspect of the character is his solo unblockable set up, and we removed this in accordance with the general principles of this patch. M.O.D.O.K. also suffers greatly against short characters, as many of his moves whiff against them, and when they on the offensive he has trouble creating space. We are fine with this latter weakness, given M.O.D.O.K.&#8217;s unique and excellent defensive options. We fixed the former, and we also suggested some fixes for features that are really weird to the character, like Hyper Psionic Blaster losing durability at higher levels. We also want his powered-up specials to be available as assists when they have been earned, which we feel could result in a very interesting character that could open up a lot of new teams built around this aspect of the character. Who doesn&#8217;t want Jamming Bomb as an assist?!

Morrigan

We recognize that Morrigan is one of the most complained about characters in the roster right now, but we firmly believe that these complaints are unjustifiable for two reasons: Morrigan does not win tournaments without Hidden Missiles, and ChrisG is the only person to make her a dominant character at tournaments. Morrigan as a solo character, and without Astral Vision, is a very fair and balanced character. Frankly, she needs to be uniquely strong in exchange for being the only character in the game without a ground dash. We do not disagree that Morrigan is a monster when she is backed by Hidden Missiles and Astral Vision, but we feel this is primarily due to Hidden Missiles covering her major weaknesses, such as air grabs and crossunders (these mess up Soul Fist/fly/unfly inputs). With the nerf to Hidden Missiles, we expect Morrigan to become more manageable.
That said, we also understand that Morrigan is an extremely hard matchup for many slow characters due to her screen coverage and mobility. When Astral Vision is up, there is no option aside from blocking Soul Fists until the timer runs out for many characters. We believe Astral Vision is fair, but her meter gain during Astral Vision is a bit too much. While removing meter gain during Astral Vision is a common suggestion, we do not think the hyper warrants that level of nerfing. Rather, we reduced Soul Fist&#8217;s damage to decrease her chip damage capabilities, which will also reduce her meter gain by association. These slight changes will make her more manageable, especially with the universal health buff. While Morrigan is a strong zoner, her rushdown is rather sad. She is the only character in the game with one single approach option, and every player knows you block high and then pushblock her. Morrigan has no hope of opening a turtling player up without a lockdown assist. As such, as made her Vector Drain air OK to give her another offensive option, though it is not a game-changer unless she has an OTG assist to help her. We expect this will lead to further team variety for her.

Nemesis

Nemesis is a big, slow target. He has little to offer a team, and as a point character he gets kept out and rushed down. To fulfill his role as an armored character who utilizes command grab frame traps, we feel that his armor moves need to be improved across the board so that rush down characters have to actually respect him. No one goes in on Hulk like they do on Nemesis, and the armored frames are to blame. His level 3 needs to be improved dramatically, as it is one of the worst hypers in the game. He needs better block strings/frame traps, better assists, and his hypers need to be more than just mediocre damage combo enders. We have improved all of this for him.
The idea of giving Nemesis an armored ground dash, or even passive armor, did come up. We eventually decided that this would be too big of a change, but the idea of Nemesis dashing to gain armor, absorbing an attack, and then landing a command grab seems appealing in some way. While it was not implemented, we mention it here as food for thought.

 

[Dahbomb]

Aww shit we at the finish line.

 

[Ghazi]

Aww shit we at the finish line.

 

[Karsticles]

Nova

Nova is a strong yet well-balanced character. He is strong, but he is not overwhelming, and he can be beaten with smart play. Most of the complaints about the character revolve around just one aspect of him: his j.H option select after an air dash. The problem is a combination of his j.H having a really good hit box, his insane air throw range, and the obscene amount of time he has to combo off of either path in the option select. While both j.H’s hitbox and the air throw range are huge, we recognize that j.H needs to remain as-is. This is Nova’s primary approach method, and nerfing the attack is extremely dangerous to the character, especially since he cannot block during the air dash. However, the air throw has a range that constantly catches players off-guard. Anecdotally, it seems larger than Felicia’s air throw range, which is similarly huge. We feel the air throw hitbox needs to be toned down to encourage Nova players to use more thought in their approach. Other than that, we feel that his red health mechanic needs a second look because the mechanic is just so rarely helpful. It often causes more damage to Nova than his opponent, and it should be controllable in some way. Changing the mechanic to an option increases Nova’s strategic options and depth of play. Finally, we would like to his block strings improved a bit along with his assist selection. A character whose best blockstring ender is flight followed by an empty flight cancel needs help.

Phoenix

Phoenix is the most difficult character to balance in the game. Her character strength is directly tied to the system mechanics, and even a small system change impacts her greatly. We feel that in a game where TAC infinites are removed and the characters who can build a ton of meter from single combos (like Magneto/Doom) are toned down, she would be in a very difficult spot. A few other system changes we made will hurt her as well, such as no chainable jabs (no more protective feather spam), reduced X-Factor bonuses, and increased character health. Basically, Phoenix will not be able to chew through entire teams in seconds anymore. At the same time, if the side exchange TAC is removed, then that is a straight buff to her, as players would no longer get free TACs against Phoenix teams, and the X-Factor TAC technique is now pointless. When looking at our Phoenix changes, keep these factors in mind.

Dark Phoenix is the game’s only 5-bar hyper, and the entire team is balanced around achieving that goal. As such, it is extraordinarily frustrating that certain characters – increasingly, many characters – can completely counter Dark Phoenix either through a transformation setup (Frank West and Funny Faced Smasher) or screen control that renders her helpless (Spiral Swords). At the very least, we feel Phoenix players should have the option to self-activate Dark Phoenix. The obvious tradeoff here is that the Phoenix player is losing normal Phoenix, who is fully capable of wrecking teams thanks to her excellent normals and speed. This seems like a good trade, and a good solution to the Dark Phoenix slaughter endemic. As a point of balance, the hyper requires Phoenix to be on the ground, so players still have the opportunity provided by the incoming mix-up to take her down with an anti-Dark Phoenix setup.

We also changed Phoenix’s aerial projectile limitations. In Vanilla Marvel, we fully recognize that the so-called salty balls were too strong. Ultimate is a different ballgame, and we think she should get some of their functionality returned to improve her general threat level. With the abundance of Phoenix counters out there, this seems more than fair to her.

Phoenix Wright

Like the other Phoenix, Wright is reliant on a specific gimmick, and it is extremely hard to balance. In short, there are three major problems with Phoenix Wright: 1) Phoenix Wright in regular mode is an absolutely horrendous, 2) The item pick-up mechanic is based around RNG, which is terrible for solid tournament play, and 3) Turnabout mode is on a timer and is not a permanent state like Dark Phoenix or Frank West’s leveled-up state. Most of our fixes are aimed towards making regular Wright a better character. The less painful it is to play Wright without Turnabout mode, the less crippled he is as a point character. While we said that random is the essence of bad in the Hsien-ko notes, we do not think Wright’s evidence collection should be derandomized. A considerable part of the character is adapting on the fly based on what you pick up and learning to incorporate any evidence combination into your game. However, we did tone down the RNG to ensure Wright players are not stuck grabbing 8+ bad evidence pieces in a row, effectively losing them the game because of a rice roll.

We also discussed buffing Turnabout Wright’s assists, but we do not want to see him become an assist tier character who gets picked for his buffed assists (hello, Arthur and Hsien-ko!). We want him to be good by himself. We did not settle on particular changes here, but we welcome consideration in that area. Also, discussions were had about reworking Wright’s evidence to ensure every evidence piece (not junk) is good in the neutral. We feel this would help the character tremendously, but it would likely involve animation work, which goes against the confines of this patch.

Rocket Raccoon

Rocket Raccoon has a huge toolset, but most of it is not worth using in the neutral. On point, he is of questionable value, as no player seems to have mastered the character’s awkward offerings yet. As a result, he is typically relegated to the anchor position for the use of Pendulum, a fantastic assist. However, as an anchor he is decidedly mediocre, and he can rarely control the field and bring forth terror on the same level as other top anchor characters. We believe that he is in need of point buffs, basically.

We improved nearly every tool Rocket Raccoon has in his arsenal, and he will not even play the same way his Vanilla self does. Actually, it is worth noting that we often changed how character play flow works a bit in general. One of the important things a patch should offer is a fresh feel for old players. New things to learn all around! Simple frame data changes are not enough to respark interest in dormant players. We improved the hit stun on his normals, as it is at times prohibitively difficult to confirm with him. We removed his unblockable, and in exchange we have helped him open players up more. Again, like some other cast members, we could've implemented a considerable damage buff on Rocket Raccoon, but its more interesting to give him better tools.

Whew, getting tired...on I go!